Lancia Motor Club

The timing cover was invisible last week.  With a clean, soak in wd, a try with the wrong screwdriver, another soak, loosen a turn (hooray!!) and a cautionary soak in wd today the cover was removed.

The tensioner works very well, lots of black grease, and the bolt in the end moves easily.

Got the two "side rocker shafts" off and able to loosen the bolts for the cam carrier but then got cold feet.  I also thought better to get the big sockets than try the adjustable on the end of the cam.

One tip is to tie the chain up so its not lost in the sump.  Another tip is to not loose the vernier pin, but what's the procedure to remove a cam?   At the moment the cam doesn't want to turn, but its chained to a crank that doesn't want to turn which may complicate things.  Do I wedge the tensioner in the "loose" position?  Seems to be I want the chain wheel off the cam at the very least...

Help!!

David

From 40 years vivid memory: Yes, undo the big nut (22mm?) that holds the cam-wheel on the end of the camshaft. The cam-wheel will then be sitting on the end of the camshaft complete with the vernier pin protruding from one of the holes. Screw something into the threaded inner of the pin with some string attached in case you drop it. Twist some wire through one of the holes in the cam-wheel and wrap it round the chain so you don’t loose that too. Then pull the cam-wheel off the end of the camshaft, probably complete with the vernier pin and lay it to one side. I don't think you need alter the tensioner to do this - it's not that strong! Then undo the long bolts (6?) that hold the cam-carrier box to the head and the whole assembly will come away from the head with the cam still located in its bearings in the box. Then look for the head studs and nuts – and leave it for another day.

Enjoy,

Colin 

Thankyou for the tips.  I was looking at the picture and wondering if the rocker assembly needed to come off the top of the cam box first or not.  Next visit, with the bigger sockets in the box, I should at least have the cam box off if not the head.  Head bolts all in oil and even the mucky stuff elsewhere has come loose as it should so no reason why not.

Tensioner wasn't very strong - I was a bit nervous undoing the nut as there was a big spring behind but with the luxury of another engine or two in bits can see the tensioner assembly sits on a fixed splined shaft.

With the head off is it diet coke down the bores?   Will start with WD, then diesel, then petrol.

Am taking photos each visit but yet to empty the camera.  The valve gear on an Aprilia is a marvel - it reminds me of Cathedral architecture and I could stare at it all day.  Am also cleaning up a spare Aurelia crank at the moment, again a work of art in its own right.

Thinking about my Fulvia S1 vs S3 thread I wonder if that's the key - I can look at S1 front suspension as art, and if the brakes needed servicing twice a year it would be a treat getting a wheel off not a chore.  Bolts under a hub cap and a dab of grease twice a year they'll not put up a fight like a modern car with the security key gone missing, torqued up by a teenager with an air hammer, and the steel bolt corroded to the alloy wheel.

David

Head is off - three shiny bores and some light rust on the last but looks like will clean up ok. 

I put the vernier pin back in the cam.

Lots of dry powerder and flakes in the top of the block, will get a vacuum on it when it comes home.  Having a prod about all feels sound and the centre stud is set into good metal which I understand isn't always the case.   Chambers crusty with coke but valves look round and sound.  All the valve springs look nice.

Head nuts all came free - with the BIG bar on the socket - and spun off with finger pressure.  Noticed one of the "side rocker" bolts had sheared but that's the only casualty to date.

Bores all soaking in WD.  Am now keeping my fingers crossed that the bottom end is as nice.  What are the tips for that end?   Best to take it apart first or try and turn it?

David

Hi David,
Any photos please ;D

Brian
8227 8)

Engine photos still in the camera - will post some when I get round to unloading.

Meanwhile here's the fact and the fiction pictures for the car as a whole, or should that be hole?

David

The tech tip here is that the red looks soooo much better coloured with felt tip instead of crayon.  When I get a chance (find them!!) will do a blue over black with red interior as a v.tempting combination.   

Also need to do a sketch with a more honest back seat as its a bit lost under torneau and hood and the artistic licence.   Thinking about it a tracing of a photo from behind would be the next one, then use that information to make the view from the front more accurate.

These are based on a tracing of a photo of a saloon so there's no cheat on wheel size or wheel base or shifting the steering or seats.  The tarty touches are higher running boards which slims the side, a touch longer scuttle, and a much narrower tail.

David

David,

Sounds and looks good. Presumably you are taking the engine to pieces with a view to rebuilding it! If so, I think you should dismantle the bottom end rather than try to force it to turn. The mains and big ends should undo easily and the crank should just lift out.

The point about looking for corrosion pits under all the crud at the bottom of the block is that this was a common failing – the first sign of which was water in the oil, which caused a misfire because the plugs run immersed in oil. Many a block was bodged back into use with Devcon filler, but I doubt it lasted very long.

Another familiar problem used to be severe wear of the cam-followers with a big dip where you might expect a smooth radius. Building up with Stellite and grinding back to a proper profile. And then there was corrosion of the alloy casting that formed the bottom radiator hose connector, but I guess now you could make one out of brass.

Is this a real project to produce an Augusta/ Aprilia special?  Or are you just having fun?

Colin

Will soak and dismantle the bottom end.  The hope with THIS engine is that taking it to bits, cleaning everything, and putting back togeather will produce something that runs and passes the MOT "visible smoke" test.  If its really sound it might get the worked on head and lighter flywheel.

The other engine is rebored to suit some specially made wedge top pistons.  I lost track of the mods to the crank as it went through some itterations of plan and as with many things at BWE was "in progress" for the best part of a decade so how far it got who knows...  It still needs rods making, but I held off ordering (biiiig expense) until confident of the crank and mains which I never was.  In time will do the jigsaw and measure up and ponder - and then like everyone else take it to Reg at Serdi to do properly. 

You ask "Is this a real project to produce an Augusta/ Aprilia special?  Or are you just having fun?"   Do I have to choose?   The "excuse" for progressing it now is that I have to give back that lockup.  "Easier to move and store an engine in bits" I say to Mrs L. 

Am hopeful I can carve out a little corner at home for a mechanics bench, and find some half hours here and there for little jobs almost at random on the rest of the car.  The dash is really easy for me, the seats are a clean "indoors while the kids watch tv" job.  Stripping the bonnet would be good for moral, and at that point why not coach paint the bonnet and cowl and hang the grill and mock up the lights?  Derusting is a classic "little and often" job that is easier to do here "while the kids kick a ball about" than at the lockup "just popping out for an afternoon".

We'll see.

David

There's a bit more on the Augusta thread.

David

It was 27mm for the cam wheel and 24mm on the crank.  Left the crank pully in place for the moment but the bolt came loose - with the 2ft bar out of the "farmer size" socket set.

David

...and a couple more...   

I think this looks good - not exactly what an F1 team might like but to me it all looks like it will clean up well enough. 

How did they used to look "back in the day" trying to find the "pick of the litter" in a scrap yard?

David

David, it looks a very interesting project !
I don't know much about these engines but is it a wet liner engine ? If so be careful not to move the liners when withdrawing the pistons as it is very easy to disturb the seals internal to the liner/block interface and as they will have settled over time they very rarely seat properly again.
Great thread  ;D

Those liners haven't been wet in a while - but that's as the designer intended. 

A good tip - and as the plan now at the bottom end is to take it to bits rather than trying to turn it I can and should push each piston downwards to free it.  I'd expect the bore to be cleaner in that direction also.  What do you think about taking the pistons all the way down and out the bottom?  Out the top is conventional, having sorted the rubbish and maybe hone the ridge out first.  Out the bottom, instinctively, the bore is tighter but who knows how its worn.

With the other engine the liners were well stuck and left alone.   Anyone know if they were dropped into a very hot block to seal or if there's a ring at the bottom like an Aurelia?

David 

David,

Looks good – and much as I might expect from a well used engine. You will have to explore right down into the wells in the block to see the corrosion pits - go gently or you might see daylight where you shouldn't.

I think Aprilia bores must have been in-situ when the block was cast - I am sure there is no lower seating ring. They are as you say ‘very dry’ and nobody ever attempted to pull them out. Re-bores were done rarely, because it was usually easier to go and see Harry and he would sort out a better block from the many that lay around in his yard, and he would probably let you have it for free!

I agree with you, soak the pistons in the bores and try to push them out from below, once the crank is out of the way.

More please,

Colin 

The oil strainer I know about - but whats that bit at the bottom with the blanking plate?   

David

...and some more pictures...

The bit projecting forward with the blanking-off plate is the tube that carries a push-rod to actuate the mechanical fuel pump, and the blanking-off plate shows where the pump would have been. It projects forward like this to clear the radiator so as to be accessible from the front after lifting off the grill, whenever it might need attention. It is little things like this that show what a clever thing the Aprilia engine is!

It was quite common to fit an SU type electric pump so I guess this must have been done here. The original pumps were fine and not dissimilar to those fitted to Fulvias.

And just behind this you can see the alloy fitting that connects to the very short radiator bottom hose, which doesn’t look to be too badly corroded. Another nice thing about the Aprilia arrangement is that because the radiator is carried on the engine mounts (also visible in your photo) there is no need for much flexibility in the hoses and they can be very short.

Colin

I've got an Augusta radiator for the car but its tempting to put an Aprilia one in if only to have the dynamo in the middle which makes me giggle every time...  Would also let me use standard hoses, and the standard pump.

If the dynamo is not Aprilia, but still has to run backwards I've got something ex-Fiat 850.  If it runs forwads I'll either buy an "off the shelf" Lucas or recondition one of the Aurelia spares.

Any tips on the oil strainer?   Do they reeeaaaalllllyyyy work...   Did ANY other cars have them?   For the "Bazzered" engine its already got a Fulvia pump and the plan was a remote filter as I did for the Austin 7. 

For this particular engine I think changing the oil every time its run should be enough  :P

David

David,

If the engine is for normal use I think the strainer will be fine. In ancient times we used to do about 10,000 miles a year and changed the oil every 3,000 or so. Duckhams 20/50 was favoured and cheap. At the same time the strainer was duly cleaner and gunge drained from the brass plug below the strainer, but I can’t recall much muck being collected in this way.

This reminds me of another thing. On the other side of the engine by the distributor is a large brass plug with screw-driver slot. Undo this to release a spring that holds down the oil pressure relief valve. I am not sure it made much difference to the oil pressure, but every so often it seemed normal practice to remove the spring and stretch it a bit. Then to lift out the ball with a magnet, clean it and refit it, tapping it down with a brass rod to re-seat it before re-fitting the spring and plug.

Colin

How is the strainer cleaned?  Other than "every time you depress the clutch".   It reminds me of town gas literally being scrubbed with brushes and water.  Guess in time scratching a sound from a plastic disk at 45rpm will seem as silly.

I love the Aprilia end to end - other than being a bit annoyed at it having BOTH a rear leaf AND torsion bars.  A bit off topic - but anyone know the excuse for that?

David

David

The mechanism is on a ratchet – every time you hit the clutch the vanes rotate a bit and comb out crud, which is supposed to collect against the edge-stop - and this is what you are supposed to clean out at every oil change. That in this day and age you rarely see any crud doesn’t mean much – how many times do you flatten out the paper cartridge filters in your modern car to see if it has managed to catch anything? Remember this is designed to cope with 1930s oil and garage cleanliness! Have faith – it will work.

You must be joking to question the read-end! Not an excuse – a delight! This is one of the real genius points in the Aprilia design. The whole thing about the transverse leaf spring is that it is soft and ‘slow’, and designed only to hold the car in a stable horizontal mode so that up or down deflection can be taken by the short torsion bars, which in the neutral mode are unstrained. In this way the torsion bars return the rear end back to ‘flat’ in the most effective way possible. As far as I know other torsion bar systems are strained one way or the other all the time.

I have experienced a number of cars with independent rear suspension, but none provide that delightful sure footed pitter-pattering over the undulations that I remember so vividly from an Aprilia saloon. Yes, I must get another one!

Colin     

If it is a wet liner assembly, then you can put a brace across the top of liner (a piece of bar with a hole at either end that locates acros two of the head studs). Of course you can only remove downwards, but the liners will stay put.

as I am confined to weekend "forum" visits i'm just catching up on this.(Thanks David for so much input and useful photos, really excellent material for reference purposes.)

just to come back to the fuel pump blanking plate questions which Colin answered , I include a couple of photos of mine .You can see clearly the pump on the arm which is operated by a pushrod assembly.Originally there was a combined pump and "filter king" type assembly with glass bowl on the aprilia.If this design performed a pressure regulation (such as is the case with the modern filter kings) I don't know but the filter was missing on my car in any case due to the modification for dual fuel lines for the twin carbs.
I'm just experimenting with a modern in line fuel injection filter as you can see.This type is cheap, last a long time as this is considerably more effective than the filter king type. (injection systems are much more sensitive to dirt in the system and the capture capacity of this is much more effective.).
agreed it doesn't look so vintage but its invisible in practice and performance comes before originality in mechanical areas. 

I can only agree with Colin's sentiments about the rear supension.Its the cleverest and most elegant solution I have yet to see from an aesthetic and engineering standpoint.
The other side of the coin is like much of the aprilia it can be a little fragile.They are like swiss watches, things of great complexity and beauty but don't drop them..

Without splitting hairs though Colin, I'm not sure what you mean about the torsion bars being unstrained in the neutral position.? With the wheels off the ground perhaps?.
The achilles heel of the aprilia are the same torsion bars.They are splined at the ends and tend to wear where they engage in the trailing arms linked to the hubs.Once they wear to a certain point the splines slip (under the torsional strain that is created by the leaf spring) and that side rear corner of the car springs up 5-10 cm. Improves cornering still further on one side....Actually a common problem on aprilias. (when they were commonly on the road I mean!)

If the torsion bars were unstrained this could not happen I think.

I guess age is taking its toll – on me as well as Aprilias! I am remembering a time when Aprilas were less than 30 years old, not the 70 they are now.

I don’t recall ever having problems with slipping splines, and if that happens I guess it’s dire and they will no longer be ‘neutral’ for very long. As I remember it, the routine was to level up the car with a second jack under the hub, slacken the torsion bar clamps and withdraw the bar (isn’t there a threaded centre to put a screw in the grip it with?). And then, clever, clever thing that it is, the torsion bars have a different number of splines on each end, in effect a vernier – so that refitting is a matter of offering it up and rotating it until you get an easy unstrained fit – then bolting it all up again.

The weakness was surely in the cable-ends that locate the transverse spring to the trailing arm. They can look OK, but rust from the inside, fray and then give way. This happened to me once in France fully laden on a camping holiday. The leaf spring dug in the road and ripped itself to pieces and the car sank into the wheel arches. I just happened to have a spare cable-end with me…. took the wings off …. limped it to the next village  and with the help of an agricultural workshop, we got it fixed… and then drove on to Rome.

Colin

And this was a time when you could park you car in St Peter’s Square without any fuss or bother!

Colin

My (second series) Aprilia had its torsion bars welded in place by a previous owner. This wouldn't have been too bad if they had first been in the appropriate (level) splines, but they had one up and one down, resulting in  a permanent "lean to the right". I could go round roundabouts at a ridiculous speed, but had to slow down rather more than usual in order to exit left! It would have been a great car for Silverstone or Goodwood, where most of the corners are right handed.

mine too.!! only when I stripped it down did I realise it had been welded in place.

I had to undo the leaf spring (sharp intake of breath), grind the weld off the end of the torsion bar, and then carefully align both sides and re weld.Replacement shafts (in better condition) are none existent, and until now its never given a problem again.Actually I cannot remember if it was mainly the shaft that was worn or the housing it fits into but I suppose one day I'll have to re engineer a new shaft /solution. I try not to think about it...

Colin,

are those marks on the photo or do I see two holes in a diagonal slanting line on the side of your engine bay. I have two like that on my car (other side) and I believe they were for mounting a radio antenna?

Scarpia,

I hadn’t thought about welding them in, but I guess that is a solution of last resort.

Yes, the marks are (or were!) the remains of a radio aerial mounting. They pre-dated my ownership of the car and I never did fit a radio. Even in the 1960s I couldn’t be tempted by a 6V valve radio with the bulky power-pack needed to run it.  If you are interested, I know a lovely man who is an expert on historic radio equipment, who also happens to be an Aprilia owner and guru – he doesn’t use this forum and it’s not fair to mention his name. If you are interested I can put you in touch and who knows, he might be able to supply you with a period set.

Colin   

the original radio is in my car.There was an old brass aerial in the boot wrapped in newspaper when I bought the car with other bits and pieces.I could never figure out how the antenna had been fitted but the two holes in the front panel must have had some sort of insulated clamping system.My car is 12 volt (second series) and one day I will wire up the radio and see if it works (unlikely I guess!).

Stale petrol sits in the water jacket but drains (over time) down the bores.  One water pocket drained in seconds, but when I realised it was out the water inlet pipe on the front I was somewhat less worried!!

David

Got a photo of one of the spare engines showing the underside of the liners.  The casting is "a belt" round the liner more than "a socket" it drops into.  The bottom edge is almost a knife edge.

The "above" photo is the best I have at the moment - but the OTHER spare will be the one to show it best being all clean and lovely.

David

Photo of the engine - now back home and scrubbed up.

Now what's the mystery pully...  its just under the inlet manifold so I'd suspect a choke or hand throttle linkage but with an Aprilia it could be for anything.

Anyone know anything more about these strainers?  It says in English "AUTO" then "OIL" then "STRAINER" on each side then a British Pat number.  Bought in?  Licenced?  A "Lancia thing" or just "an Aprilia thing"?

David

David,

It’s looking good.

The pulley is for the steel-wire link that goes from the starter motor actuator lever under the dash to the arm on the starter motor. When fitted to the car, to get the starter motor off you need a short sawn-off 17mm open ended spanner, just like the one that still resides in my tool box.

I  thought we had done with the oh so clever oil-strainer, except perhaps to note that it was actuated by a push-rod linked to the clutch pedal so that each time you dipped the clutch it rotated a few degrees. Just another one of those things that goes to make the Aprilia a work of genius.

Onward!

Colin

The sorts of detail I enjoy - on every level - are the sump to block studs and nuts being a bronze or something that doesn't rust. 

There was a general thread before on the best way to clean alloy - here's the answer...

David

Funny thing that........ I still have a sawn off 17mm open ended spanner in my tool box too!

What's his hourly rate & travelling costs ;D

Brian
8227 8)

I pay him £1.50 a week plus board and lodgings.

David

When I owned my Aprilia I was a young engineer in the Test Facilities Dept. of the DeHavilland Engine Company.  Some of our older test rigs had Purolator Autoclean filters with handles on top that were turned to clean the elements.  The element in the Aprilia filter was identical although rather smaller and could well have been supplied by that company.

Peter

Yes, the clutch operated 'Autoclean' filters used on the Aprilia, and before that the Augusta and Astura , were standard on a number of motor cars and other mechanical devices.  I had thought that they were 'Made in England' but suspect that they may have come from the USA along with a number of innovations adopted by Mr Lancia (Gleason final drives and Perfect Circle pistons in the Lambda for example)

Hi Peter,
I'm intrigued ??? if rotating cleaned the element, where did whatever you cleaned go to?

Brian
8227 8)

The grot fell to the bottom and could be removed when a plug was undone. This all assumes that the thing works as it should - unlike the one on my Augusta which was free - wheeling. The ratchets were a weak point and were frequently found to be broken. I have fitted modern filters in both the Lambda and Augusta, which I'm convinced are a lot more efficient than the "strainers". To be on the safe side, I have also fitted very strong magnets in the sump drain plugs (and those in the gearboxes and back axles) which still manage to pick up a lot of magnetic sludge.

Adding a magnet to the sump plug is a great tip. 

David

Better pics of how the liners fit.   In the second one what's that little hole down the bottom?

David

Oilway to the head.

The one I was interested in is at the foot of the stud in the very middle of the block.  I can only guess it is some sort of water drain - and hope it is supposed to be there.

=====

Alas no space to upload progress pictures - but cam wear is really horrible and followers likewise.  Lots of sludge in the cam and the rocker shafts and oil feed holes blocked.  The Auto-Strainer is proven to be insufficient...  Then again not changing oil and conventional filters will do the same in the end.   Sorting through the spares found a usable cam, and likely to be able to make up a decent set of rockers.

Cam was seized.  Soaking for a week didn't do it so it was a wooden drift and a rubber mallet - just the one light tap did it so "only just" seized.  Bearing surfaces fine.  Lots of the rockers still seized.  What's the trick for removing a pillar from the end of the shaft?   I expect its best leaving the middle pillar alone so as not to mess up the oil feed alignement.

Another "odd" problem was that the bush on the cam tensioner arm had slipped so the oil feed up the arm to the tensioner sprocket was blocked.  Again got good spares so all not lost.

Manifolds came off REALLY easily.  Exhaust gasget cleaned up nicely.  One of the exhaust studs sheared way back when.   With one of the rocker pillars that's only two to do. 

Am looking forward to removing the sump.  Its like exploring the pyramids - will it be treasure or so much scrap and cobwebs?

Any tips on seperation of rods from crank without seperation of white metal from rods?

David

I have recently had new rods made for my Aprilia engine via Reg and very nice they are too BUT they are each 200g heavier than the originals.  This makes a huge difference to the balance of the engine which, in a narrow V4, is very difficult to calculate (I think there is something on the Lambda thread from Oz about the vector mathematics of this).  I took the assembled engine (without the rings fitted but included with the engine for weighing) to Vibration Free who put it on their rig and balanced it.  This entailed making a number of big holes in the flywheel and the addition of a substantial weight on the crank pulley.  It took them some 40 hours (of which they only charged me 20!!!) but now they know what to do so in future it should be a lot easier for them.  They said when they first put it on the rig and ran it up to 200 rpm it nearly jumped off so it would have been unusable if I had simply slung it together and bunged it in!

Just trying to remind myself what and when I was doing - four years has slipped past fast...

David

David/all

I am interested in fitting a more modern oil filter to OVS. Any options??


My autoclean Semundat filter is wired off and not operated by the clutch and advice from martin Cliffe is not to touch it but to have regular oil changes (which i am happy to do).

I have tried to remove said vane filter to clean it but it is stuck in the block. I was thinking of removing all 4 studs but one is difficult to get to so I didnt bother. Any ideas of how to lift off??

Tim

I started a new thread for the "modern filter" and "stuck cleaner" for Tim.

David

If you do find holes in the bottom of your block, may I suggest Sylmasta titanium.  It works on Lambdas including the top face of the block and is water resistant and takes temperatures up to 260C.

http://www.sylmasta.com/acatalog/copy_of_Epoxy_Putty_Stick.html