Lancia Motor Club

Hi. Just wondered if anyone knows of a Fulvia gearbox aficionado in the UK?
The box on my works car can crunch when it goes into 1st (unless car is completely stationary and revs are low), and I'd ideally like it not to. I'll get the number off it when I get home, but I guess it's probably the piggyback version. It has an 818.540 number that I noticed at the weekend.

The further question - can this version of gearbox be removed in isolation to the rest of the engine - or can it only come out attached to the engine and the frame?

Thanks.

Does this synchro crunch happen when the box is hot? Any other suspect changes i.e 1 to 2, or 3 to 2.

If this is a works car gear box it will have had potentially a hard life and the engagement teeth will probably be worn too.

Oil is a critical factor. If it has not been changed then change it for something like Mobilube1 SHC

Given the it has a 5 speed remote that is the defining factor for getting the box out of the car with the engine in place. That is my preferred method as it does not disturb the engine bay. However you  do need a transmission cradle for either a trolley jack or transmission jack that can tilt the gearbox once it has slid out of the clutch housing. Obviously with the gearbox CoG on the stand and strapped down. You need to get the car up in the air (sill height minimum 700mm or you will be left with the gearbox stuck under the car...

Hi Jus

My car does exactly the same....gearbox has been overhauled.......I don’t think there is any synchromesh on first on piggyback box.....it’s just to get you off the line. It very low geared, so as long as you are moving second gear will do.

Thanks Tim and Charles. I've not had much driving time so far, but I think that it happens hot or cold. I'll try and confirm that in the next week or two, and I'll check the oil as well. Thanks for the advice about removing the box - I'll wait until I get a lift.

The gearing on this one seems quite high and I thought it was in 3rd when pulling away the first few times I drove it. It's the main reason for not taking it to the hill climb - I didn't think that a major hill start with this gear would be pretty. I'm still working around this car (only had it a few weeks), but I've found that the floats in the Weber 45s were set differently - one was about right, but the other seemed to have around twice the gap at each extreme. The chokes were 3 x 34 and 1 x 32 - and I've changed to 36mm. Obviously - I've had to change plugs, as my Fulvias seem to eat them.

From Flavia all Lancia gearboxes had synchro on first. Some crunch some dont. I have recently overhauled 3 5 speed gear boxes and 3 four speed boxes, replacing sychro cones as necessary. All were sweet to use afterwards.

It could be the transfer gears that make it a close ratio but penalty is a tall 1st gear. Also final drive (2 choices), which only will be known when dismatled.

Thanks for that info Tim. I've checked the plate on the gearbox, and this is what it has on it:

818.540

20 CORSE
2 TIPO
Then, it has MMA6V stamped into the casing just to the right of the plate.

Is that enough to identify it?

Thanks,
Justin.

Jus,

Rebuilt several Fulvia gearboxes over the years including piggy back for S1 1,6HF with Tony Wilson (Hewland and classic racing car gearbox specialist in Nottingham). He is semi retired but has three spare S2 5 speed boxes which have been stripped and tested for sale.

Another option is Neale Shepherd in Ashby de la Zouch.

Let me know if you need more info.

Cheers

Lukas

Hi Lukas.

I'd be interested in Tony's contact details. I could temporarily replace the box in this car, and keep the original ready to go back in at some stage after a rebuild as I want to keep the car as original as possible. I'm not sure whether it has to have the original gearbox on as part of the FIVA card - but it would only be a temporary swap.
Thanks,
Justin.

As long as ratios are certified under homologation papers, then you should be good to go.

I have original piggy back 5 speed but use homologated gearbox for racing.

https://www.bacciromano.com/en/

but other italian gearbox builders do similar work.

Hi Jus and Tim

Tim, your comments got me thinking, which is always a good thing, so I have just been revisiting an old thread by Neil Cundy regarding Fanalone gearboxes (“R.E Fanalone Restoration”).......

To quote......”The piggy back gearbox is based on the 4-speed of the standard cars but differs in detail, like having no syncro on first maybe because there was not enough space”

Hi Charles. Interesting. Didn't you just have your gearbox rebuilt by Tanc? Does your first gear have a synchro or does it crunch?

I got in touch with Tony Wilson (thanks Lukas), and he had a few things to say about the inner workings of these boxes:

"The trouble with worn synchros is not so much the cones themselves, which are not ridiculously expensive items, but that persevering with worn synchros (as one does), wears the engagement dogs. Worn dogs make it more difficult to engage, putting even more stress on the cones - it's a vicious circle. The engagement dogs are not only on the synchro units, but on each of the gear ratios too. Rectification involves new cones, synchro units, and all the gears - possibly the layshaft as well. It becomes prohibitively expensive. First and second gears are particularly under stress in any gearbox, due to the large speed differences."

All worth knowing.
Cheers,
Justin.

Charles I will take your word for it - I am away (lucky me) from my parts books etc so cannot double check. I have not looked at a piggyback and probably would not want the challenge, but the 4 speed and regular 5 speed boxes are quite easy to work on. I have seen a 1600 5 speed box with well worn engagement teeth on the the first three gears but they still engaged sweetly if the synchro cones were in spec re clearances given in the Techni dati. The real problem with that box was an impossible good mesh on the crown wheel and pinion and it droned from 30mph. I have also seen wear on the 2 gear of a 4 speed with suspect metallurgy with chipped off engagement teeth. With my limited experience I have not seen any problems with the layshaft other than occasional need to replace a bearing or 2... It is fair to say these boxes are labour intensive though.....

Hi Jus

I was pretty certain there was no synchro on first on the “piggy back” box, and my car confirms this in the driving. I only use first from stationary.

I have had a quick look at the parts manual. There are two diagrams that are relevant.....

TAV33A for HF(1), which is the piggyback box
TAV 33B for HF(2), for the standard 5 speed.

Both refer to item 29 as first gear, but only HF(2) refers to item 13, which is the cone.

I am no expert, but have a look and see what you think.

Cheers

Charles

Hi all. So - given the markings on my gearbox:

818.540
20 CORSE
2 TIPO
Then, it has MMA6V stamped into the casing just to the right of the plate.

Can anyone say for sure that it's one of the piggyback versions? I've not had the opportunity to get the car up on ramps yet to get a good look at everything. The engine is no. 14, so maybe the 20 is the number of the gearbox?

Hi Charles. Thanks for the info. Is the parts book on the forum somewhere?

Cheers,
Justin.

(http://GBox ID.jpg)
(http://Engine ID.jpg)

Hi Jus

All the parts/workshop manuals are available from the club library, if you contact Chris Hopkins. Chris kindly sent me all relevant manuals for my S1 1.6 HF on a CD. You definitely need these!

For comparison, I have just taken photo of my gearbox plate. My car is a pure “Stradale” with piggyback box, whereas I guess yours is specific to a race/ Corsa version. Note the additional markings adjacent to the plate on your casing, as you mentioned earlier. Has anyone got experience of the latter....looks interesting!?

If you can get under the car, it will be fairly obvious from the casings which construction you have.

Charles

PS Do you have any race history for the car?

Thanks Charles. And am I right in thinking that Tanc did some work on your box recently - so it's safe to assume that if first had a synchro, then he would have replaced it if it was worn, and you wouldn't have a crunchy first still?

My S2A Land Rover is also lacking synchro on 1st (and 2nd) - so it's not a big issue for me, just as long as it's meant to be like that.
I'll get in touch with Chris regarding the parts list.
Cheers,
Justin.

Hi Jus

As I said earlier, the parts book doesn’t show a synchro on first gear for early HF(1) boxes. Have a good look when you get your copy, look at the casing construction as well as the internals, and compare to your car. You are unraveling a piece of history!

Charles

Hi Charles.
I asked Andrew at Omicron about the gearbox, and he agrees that that this version doesn't have a synchro on first. So - at least it's not faulty. I might still think about temporarily swapping it for another box though. The first gear ratio is really high, and it makes pulling away on a hill a bit of a struggle and unfortunately for the clutch in this car, there's lots of hills where I live.

Thanks for all the replies.

First gear is probably high as I mentioned before that the transfer gear could be a short ration giving an overall close ratio box. Only opening will confirm...

My 4speed S1 always had weak synchro, just lived with it. My Flavia 2000 with "big" 4speed box had crap synchro at 30000miles and weak 3rd as well. Now on 60000 and no worse, just live with it, but then I used to run a S2 Land Rover with crash box so used to double declutch

Let me know if you need assistance. Piggyback is obvious from rear of g-box casing. Input shaft splines are coarser like S1 4 speed cf later 5 speed units. Ratios can be tested with gearbox out before disassembly. Competition cars had copper clutch units. Most competition cars (1969-1974) used later 5 speed housing with homologated gears.