Lancia Motor Club

Has anyone ordered anything from Italy since Brexit ? I have ordered and paid for a Delta 3 front grille from a firm SERVEX who have just asked for my NHS Number for their Customs form . This sounds very strange to me and I can find nothing on the web about it . Has anyone heard of this ?

It is probably to send it ex Vat if over £135 (incl delivery)..... You will be pleasantly annoyed to also be charged Vat and possibly small duty on it entering UK and a courier handling charge...

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I was also asked for my NI number by a seller (requested by the courier) last week which, as above, I anticipated was likely to lead to VAT & handling charges on arrival.

I didn't give my info but instead requested them to send it via Poste Italiane as I have received several parcels from Italy recently without incurring any fees (famous last words !) ...

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I am having very significant issues with the post-Brexit charges. Many of you know that I live in France and regularly have things going back and forth.

I buy/sell/give parts and since Brexit it is a nightmare, because you do not know what to expect

2 examples:

1/ a set of 1600 carbs (value 500 euros) - received by the purchaser who 2 weeks later was asked for £113 - £10 import duty, £90 VAT and £13 handling charge

non of this was indicated by Fedex beforehand

2/ several Fulvia parts given to a friend (FOC) but with insurance value of 200 euros in case of loss - £51 was asked

again non of it identified beforehand

As a test, I am waiting for some Aprilia parts that I have had remade in the UK to arrive in France to see how the French will deal with it - they cost £150 ex vat so let's see

I do not know if I can buy/sell/remanufacture in the UK anymore because of unknown costs, you can't anticipate what to expect. At the very least anybody in the UK getting/buying anything from me will have to pay between 25 & 30% more ......

Apparently customs will not accept "nil" value so you can't do this either

The UK loses out !

ps this isn't a political statement, just the new reality

I was also asked for a means of identification for a parcel coming from Spain and initially I was likewise asked for either my Passport or National Insurance number. I declined and substituted my VAT number, because I have one. If you have one, I would suggest this is probably the best identification to use for such purposes, its of much less use to anyone for fraudulent purposes. Maybe your Driving License number? But I would put that in the same susceptible group as Passport and NI numbers. This particular shipment is scheduled to be delivered on 8 February, some 25 days after it was dispatched.
Deliveries from pretty much everywhere outside the UK are now much slower post-brexit.
Another delivery, also from Spain, is currently stuck somewhere "In Transit" and has been since 19 January, it was dispatched on the same date as above (15 Jan). This, I am told (by UPS), is due to covid-19 affecting staffing levels and brexit.
Likewise, a shipment from Germany (by GLS) has been stuck somewhere "In Transit" since 29 January.
 ::)

With regard to VAT, here is a reasonably good explanation of who needs to do/pay what/to whom that I found on tinterweb....
https://www.dlapiper.com/en/us/insights/publications/2020/12/uk-vat-changes-sale-of-goods-to-customers/

I have today received a B2C order from EE in Italy which has not incurred any excess charges ( so far). The items cost < £135 although with Italian Vat and postage the order was above that figure.   

Hi Simon

Who was it shipped with?

Peter

FedEx both times

GLS

Hi Simon

I fail to see how there is import duty on carbs, presumably made in Europe?

Peter

Hi Simon

So the items were delivered via Royal Mail in the UK I assume?

Peter

Re import duties, it is clearly stated on the FedEx invoice and separate from the vat

There was an article on import duties in MCN last week which gave a reasonable explanation, although why £135 was deemed the change point as far as charges go, maybe they came up with E150 and reckoned £135 was about the same..
But what I've not been able to ascertain, does it only apply to new goods or any goods?
You'd have thought 2nd hand parts wouldn't incur VAT style charges?
The MCN article referred to country of origin of manufacture and gave examples of clothing being bought in UK against the same item bought from EU, but that was all new stuff.
Are the likes of eBay charging for used items from EU countries?

As I've interpreted it, and as other folk have said, there is this EUR150 (£135) limit which if items fall below then VAT is charged at source.
For items above this threshold then what should happen is that the seller removes VAT at source and it gets charged at import, plus any customs duties and admin charges from the courier to deal with this. That all gets charged to the buyer when delivery accepted.

The bit that is unclear to me is buying from an overseas private (non tax registered) seller. Let me take ebay as an example where prices from sellers are market rate and therefore kind of include 'tax' even if not implicit. So take a scenario pre-Brexit where item X is £320 from a 'professional' seller and £300 from an 'amateur' seller. All things being equal the lower priced item goes in the basket.
Post-brexit what happens? The amateur seller isn't going to accept £240 to account for 20% VAT that gets charged up the road on importing to the UK.
Now take my actual situation where I only have a single private seller available on ebay for something I need. Effectively the £300 'tax implicit' item would become something like £385 once VAT, customs duty and handling charges are applied. Is this just the way it is or have I missed something here?

Importing spare parts from the EU for our Lancias, either directly or indirectly, I would argue, is fairly fundamental to our hobby.

I think you are quite correct about VAT on items from private sellers, from what I can glean. Quite a blow really!

One possible way around this is if the components for your classic car are original and over 30 years old, like your car, then there is a Preferential Tariff of 5%. This comes under collectors items, and for reference, the HMRC commodity code is 97050301.

The other is under a UK-EU Preference Tariff, with 0% VAT. This is available for many items. Ref 8703409090 is for motor vehicle parts.

Whether, or how, these are invoked in practice I am not sure......anyone out there with import/export experience?

There are other requirements such as a “proof of origin” document from the vendor. How this is dealt with in reality on importation is anyone’s guess!!

At the moment, I would put these solutions in the “too difficult” category.

If it is as you describe, then buying from anyone in the EU who isn’t VAT registered will be at a disadvantage. The “little” guys always lose!

The UK-EU Preference system is only available to VAT registered traders and requires that the EU seller states that materials are of EU origin their invoice.
EU suppliers should not charge VAT to UK retail customers. UK VAT and import duty will be charged via the carrier - often after the materials have delivered. The VAT and duty will be levied on the total  value of the materials  and the cost of carriage. Courier companies will also charge a processing fee if £8.50 to £11.00.
The taxes are calculated on the commercial value of the materials irrespective of they are gifts or free samples.
For the record UPS is largely dysfunctional; wait times of 1+ hour to get through to customer service; their warehouses overwhelmed by delayed EU to UK shipments.
GLS has always been a very slow service.

There is no Customs duty on goods moving EU to UK and vice versa, if it is charged, this is in error.

The exception may be goods coming from say China or elsewhere via the EU (Brussels airport is a big hub for such movements).

I think ebay, or other platforms, are now liable for VAT on sales into the UK from the EU, so that is likely to be the big extra cost as Charles points out.

Still confused!

Does that mean no VAT between EU and UK?

Hi Charles

No, Neil means import duty, not VAT which are different.

Peter

I also heard from a supplier of mine in the UK that shipments to EU are well behind, normal next day parcel to Germany via DHL at the end of Jan had still not got there by Monday this week. I guess this will sort itself out in time, but I would suggest delay any purchases if they are not urgent or at least the shipping of them.

Shipping from elsewhere appears normal. I bought some (electronic) parts from the US the other Thursday and Fedex delivered the following Monday morning as would be normal.

Peter

Here is the FEDEX receipt , it clearly states import duty and import tax (plus handling) - on a 500 euro sale

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Whether or not import duty is charged will depend on the commodity (tariff) code - of which there are 1000's.

Rates of duty can be anything from zero to 12% (eg some clothes) - maybe more - highlighting the importance of giving goods the correct tariff code.

For instance, here's the information from HMRC's website relating to shock absorbers:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50929090432_7f7794eac7_w.jpg)

Does this only apply to new items?

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No - it applies to used items as well ...

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Hi

Is this true for items of EU origin as I thought they did not attract import duty in the Brexit agreement?

Peter

You're right Peter, at the risk of repeating myself there should be absolutely no CUSTOMS duty on goods shipped from the EU. Confusingly in Lightweight's post it refers to third countries, which pre-brexit excluded the EU and the term seems to be wrongly staggering on.

If Simon's invoice relates to goods UK to France then he has been overcharged, unless, as already stated the items somehow made their way via the UK from somewhere else.

I think this whole post just goes to show how confused people, and many businesses, have become now that they are suddenly exposed to customs procedures. Imports from the US have always been subject to this, so merrily carry on as normal. When I worked in Customs in the 1980s imports from the EU did have to go via customs until the single market, and again, because it was normal everything worked reasonably well, albeit with a lot of extra paperwork.

This is no doubt what some club members voted for......

Hmmm...I have bought items from Austria used cameras and Italy new car parts and the parcels just landed at the door and the man said there you go Sir! no charges or demands...so is this all
1) A SNAFU
or
2) A FUBAR
or
3) One big Con!
or
4) A combination of any or all of the above!
I have also sent things to Norway and Germany with no problems. But had an ocean of grief when I sent a parcel to South Africa. I think the codes from HMRC are the key in all this so I can understand why some things just run into a world of pain when they troll up on a custom man's desk. It will presumably completely grind to a halt both ways when the UK actually starts checking stuff coming in. As for the people of Northern Ireland they are in a bad place.
Mystified of Redcar

It's more complicated than where the goods are sent from. In theory, if a part is sent from China (or anywhere outside the EU) to France, and then from France to the UK, duty is liable on both legs of that journey. The part only becomes "of French origin" is it is processed in some way (eg included in some larger component, and making up less than 45% of the value of that component). This makes things really difficult for any shipping company - if they apply the rules correctly then they need paperwork to show that it is of French origin in order to exclude the duty.

There are all sorts of other exemptions, like a limit on the value of gifts at £39 before they become liable for VAT, and £135 before an item is liable for duty:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277

As it applies to bicycles:
https://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/news-press/post-brexit-regulations-product-safety-standards-ukca-mark-uk-eu-rules-of-origin/

Given how much confusion there is on this topic, I think it's going to take quite a while before this settles down into something that is predictable for the consumer.

I wrote about this in an earlier post, particularly in relation to Ebay sales, where Ebay are adding VAT at the point of sale when you bid on items on Ebay.it or presumably .fr or any other European site. I bought items made for Lancia in Turin, new old stock, and VAT was added and then import duties as i was text by UPS with a link to pay "Import fees" - It leaves you in a very difficult situation as failure to pay halts the shipment and then returned to sender. There was also a fee for admin. A few days later another shipment sailed through without any fees (again UPS but not Ebay) there is apparently a massive backlog at docks and it seems to depend on whether the seller (or agent in this case Ebay) is registered with UK Customs and Ex.
I've also had sellers in Holland and France refusing to sell to UK due to paperwork required. Whether this remains the case we will see.

My GLS shipment from Germany arrived all-of-a-sudden yesterday 11 February. There was no update for 10 days while it was en route to their main parcel centre (in Germany) and then just 3 days for it to arrive at my door. No added charges so Im guessing the seller (autodoc) had their paperwork correctly completed for HMRC VAT purposes.

My UPS shipments from Spain have now "Cleared Customs". From the shipment sent/dispatch date, this has them taken 28 days and 20 days, but there is still no scheduled delivery date for either. Their excuse for the longer delay was bad weather. I know for a fact this is untrue, the seller confirmed this. And I checked the weather forecast at the time, no such thing. Indeed, if you have the option, do not use UPS, they are utterly hopeless in every respect. I have no reason to doubt the sellers telling me they completed the paperwork correctly (they emailed me copies for me to confirm this). One is now "pausing" his trade to the UK and both are considering other shipping companies in the meantime.

A Le Mans 24hr race-goer friend who lives near Paris has likewise had to "pause" his trading to the UK because Colissimo (French Postal Service) and Mondial Relay both discontinued shipments to the UK, certainly for private/small-scale sellers like himself. That was the situation about a month ago, things may have changed by now, I dont know. Luckily, my last purchase from him was pre-brexit.

Whatever the situation, this whole brexit mess (there - Ive nailed my colours to the mast) is going to take some time to settle down/get used to. Our previous expectations of delivery times from Europe will have to be re-thought and put more in line with deliveries from the other side of the ocean and/or planet, certainly for the time being.

Hi all
spoke too soon just had a request to cough up £77 on a purchase of £300 worth of old cameras from Austria so I have asked DHL for a breakdown. The disconcerting thing is the cameras were delivered on the 11th of January.
Clarkey

What is scary about all this is the lack of clarity, how can you judge whether a purchase from EU is worth doing if you don't know if a £300 purchase will incur no extra bill, or an extra £77! Makes the price way more different.
I hope the situation becomes clearer and any extra costs can be calculated before buying anything.

Hi Clarkey

Not unusual for a courier to send invoice on after the delivery for the VAT etc..

Beware ignoring it. I once had a shipment from the US delivered and then never received the VAT invoice on the shipment which I had expected I had to pay. Eventually I had a debt collection agency sending letters demanding payment and their exorbitant fee. From memory the VAT was around £60 and the fee was over £100.

I contacted the courier direct and asked for copy invoice of the original VAT invoice and paid that direct to them. No more was heard from the debt company as these guys can be very unpleasant and definitely on the edge of the law at times.

Peter

Hi Kev

I think you should assume that there will be VAT and a fee of around £10 to pay, then you will not be surprised.

Peter

Guess so. Assume you have to pay, factor that in then if no payment needed its a bonus.

 Interesting article on the BBC News website:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55841048 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55841048)
 Just substitute Jumpers with Bumpers!

Further to my post on this topic some weeks ago . After numerous emails , nudges and threat of immediate cancellation , Servex finally replied to say that DHL had just picked up my expensive front grille.  It arrived within the week last Monday with no customs paperwork , nothing from the driver and (as yet) no further invoices in the post .  Many thanks to all who posted but it seems that the consensus of opinion is correct in that no-one has the slightest idea as to what the current rules actually are , how they are interpreted or how they are applied . The new grille however looks superb  :)

Just adding my recent experience with the new EU rules. Bought an item from France, item arrived in early January, did fit so I returned it and promptly forgot all about it, until yesterday when a letter or should I say a demand with menace arrived from DHL for the grand total of £48.09 in duties, for an item that I no longer have and was returned on January 18th... I should also add there was no indication from DHL before the letter yesterday that any charges where due.

Following my experience with buying Jim's appia light lense as a spare, (for 20 UKP plus 9 UKP postage), and having been charged with an exta 34.92 Euro's for VAT and import costs by the Belgian Post, I filed a complaint.

They answered me today that only non-commercial shipments with a total value under 45 Euro (this is including postage costs) are free of VAT and import handling charges, and that a sale between two private persons is still regarded as commercial.

On the phone the lady told me that Jim should better have ticked the box 'GIFT' instead of 'sale of goods' on the CN22 label, and that then it would have passed without problem.....so they advise you to lie!!!!!

Anyone does as he pleases, but just wanted to share this 'opportunity' for small items....

Hi all
It seems we are at the mercy of the respective postal services in our home countries when receiving parcels from abroad. The advice given to Koen is wrong on 2 counts as firstly you are committing fraud and secondly it will not work every time as Customs are not stupid and will have experience of people trying to circumvent the rules. I know this as I tried the 'gift' trick on a shipment of brake parts to South Africa but in the end the South African customs demanded a proper invoice and the resultant delay ran into weeks. On another note this time praising the postal services worldwide I sold a camera to a customer in China last August so guess what turned up at my house yesterday? the parcel had a sticker on it in English and Chinese saying there was not sufficient address information to deliver it. Thing is where has it been for the last 7 months?
Clarkey

Slightly different but I sent out the Gamma Consortium Newsletters last week and because of Brexit I had to complete 24 individual customs declarations (previously only 6) - it was worse than doing lines at school. 

"I must vote - Remain"
"I must vote - Remain"
"I must vote - Remain"

. . !

In my opinion, they should at least allow for small stuff below this 45 to pass without any declaration, as long as it is a private sale between private persons, but obviously this is not going to happen. 
What is weird than is that I recieved Lambda parts from Australia, declared at 550 Euro, and had to pay 'only' 55 euro for import and handling...I wonder where the relation is to the 35 Euro I had to pay for Jim's 29 UKP package....

Now let us be honest: 24 Euro handling charges to put a stamp on a box is slightly over the top IMO, one can pay personel for one working hour with that.....probably I also paid for the coffee break....

Damn, you guys have me wondering now...

Recently bought a couple of new panels for the Dedra from Italy, cost inc postage was around £90 (or under £70 once the multiple postage/combined parcel was refunded to me) but anyway I figured I'd be OK as well under the £135 figure being banded about..
Guess I'll just have to wait and see if I get a demand?

A couple of months ago I bought a Delta 3 radiator grill and four hubcaps from a French dealer and had them delivered free of charge to my neighbour in France. I then used parcelbroker.co.uk (no connection to me) who provided the delivery label and customs declaration label for me to fill in. Paid them around £25, emailed the labels to my neighbour, the parcel was collected next day and with me in four. No demands for any extra payments. Yet!

We have also for many years brought back from France old furniture clocks etc and have checked what the customs situation might be now. It appears that we fill in a simple customs declaration on line which calculates any VAT or duty due. Submit the form, pay the VAT/duty and use the "nothing to declare" lane at the UK port.

There are limits on things like alcohol and tobacco, other items up to a value of £390 are free.. I presume (hope!) this is per person and not per car?

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/declaring-goods

Robin.