Lancia Motor Club

evening all, 

any tips/techniques for putting the main springs back into the sliding pillar???  I can just about compress the spring with a hydraulic jack, but then I'm very wary of cross threading the big lower spring holder thread as it goes into the sliding pillar.  As its all under tension (and at a bit of an angle) its very difficult to make sure the thread is engaging correctly.  surely there is an easier method??

I use an old bearing on top of the jack so that even under pressure I can "feel" the threads better - have you refitted the upper part ? If you haven't it may give a bit more leeway as well, but as you suggest, do everything to avoid cross threading the very fine threads !!

I had a tool made, modelled on the one shown below.

It has a thrust bearing between the 'key' that engages with the base section of the unit and the bottom plate of the tool, rather as the old bearing that Simon suggests for the 'use a jack' approach.

Thanks Simon and William,

I very carefully cleaned out the threads and test assembled a number of times without the spring before using the hydraulic jack to compress the spring.  I did not attach the top bush housing so the sliding pillar was free to rotate and wobble a bit to get a better chance at good engagement with the thread....it worked nicely and I tightened the nut smoothly with no cross threading - until i got to the point shown in the photo.  I think now all the slack is gone from the spring/sliding pillar and the bottom thread is compressing the spring further as I tighten it.  It is now very very difficult to do up further- is that normal? Do I now need to apply further pressure with the jack, whilst at the same time using a very long lever on the nut?

Have you checked that the lower sheet metal sleeve that holds the oil has correctly entered into the spring dust cover?

Personally, I would be nervous of applying too much torque to that nut. The part you are screwing in is made of several pieces brazed (or even soldered) together and you might crack the braze/solder or worse.

The 'key' / teeth on the base are there for the purpose of assembly / disassembly. Photo below shows cracking of the solder on Noel's car, and the keys.

In my opinion you should get hold of (borrow, or have made) a tool that can apply the necessary force to fully tighten things up, without risk of damage. Simon has a LOT more experience of this subject than I do and might well disagree!

Hi William,

no completely agree...will be using the 48mm socket i adapted to engage with the "teeth" in the outer ring...

ref your question Mike, the two thin metal sleeves are not yet overlapping, so that is not causing the tightness on doing up the bottom holder further...

The Harry Manning Method as I recall. An adjustable, pointed at the top, Stand was placed on the ground. The "Socket" was placed on the stand under the lower nut part, and the weight of the car compressed the spring, the same stand but different socket/spanner was used for b20`s etc
Harry had made a number of sets of these stand and  socket tools, and many B20 owners bought them.

There is something odd. I suggested the sleeves fouling because I had experienced that although with so little thread left to tighten I did think they should have already overlapped. I have about 25mm of overlap on full droop when everything is assembled whereas it seems you will have nothing like that. A decent amount of overlap is desirable to keep road spray out.

Correction, sorry, I have about 9mm overlap on full droop.

hmm, i have about 1-2mm overlap on full droop  - you are right Mike that does seem low (see picture).

I have disassembled the sliding pillar again as I had a leek from the lower spring holder (so some soldering to do). I also have a car lift coming next week so i can get the whole car and axle a good height off the ground and get much better access to the sliding pillar on assembly with a jack and also a pivot/bearing into action better too.  Will update later next week.

I have just noticed there is a circlip (part number 38-73120) in the attached TAV. this seems to ensure that part number 38-606 remains screwed into the lower kingpin.  Is that important, has anyone had experience of these becoming undone without the circlip?

You can be sure that there is a purpose for this circlip. The lower guide (38-606) is subject to constantly changing side loads. If it becomes loose, the steering and suspension is compromised.
Photo is from an Augusta suspension, quite similar to the Aprilia.

regards  Karl

I made a spanner from an appropriate sized tube with a pair of slots cut in one end and the other end rests on the floor with the car/spring/nut sitting on top, but other folks' tools are much more elegant than mine!

evening All,

the bottom spring holder has now been taken apart and re-soldered and passed its oil leak test, and the car lift has arrived...so onwards to assembly!  One question - has anyone any tips on how to insert the circlip (part no. 38-73120 in the TAV above) i tried that this evening and it seems almost impossible to get into the small hole and inside the groove??

After struggling for some time with the circlips, i gave up and instead used Loctite Threadlocker, much easier and probably stronger!  The bottom spring holders then went on fairly easily once i had the car up a few feet with the ezycarlift and then used a jack to hold the large socket tool i made onto the bottom spring holder.  Its so much easier with proper access!

hopefully i can finish the reassembly this week and then for a test drive again...

sorry one more question on assembly...the upper kingpin sleeve - part number 38-73041 which screws into the upper part of the sliding pillar seems to have a seal at the bottom - that i don't have on my sliding pillars - part number 38-73081.  What does that seal do? Should there be oil or grease inside the sleeve that keeps the upper bush lubricated that this seal keeps in??

David, it's a felt seal deigned to keep some of the grime out I think - picture of one in situ without the lower domed washer in place

I am profoundly impressed by the professionalism and thoroughness shown here. I can only contrast it to earlier times when changing an Aprilia front main-spring was done by lowering the car onto a Harry Manning type tool seated on a flat steel plate. And lining it all up carefully so as not to cross-thread it on reassembly. I can recall taking a spring out of an axle removed from a car, simply by holding the axle vertically in a garage doorway and using the tool held in-situ with a bottle-jack across the doorway while easing it out. Primitive times!

I managed to get both sliding pillars completely reassembled and bled the brakes and refitted the wheel and finally took the Aprilia for a drive round the block.  End result - some slight improvement - but still does not feel right.  I also still get the violent front wheel vibrations at low speeds. Damn. Next step is to borrow a wheel alignment kit and check the toe in - Noel Macwhirter mentions that as solving his front end vibration...so well worth try!

Have you checked the wheels for trueness?

yes wheels are ok, with new tyres and balanced.  I don't think they are the cause, but plan to rotate them just in case.  Talking to Peter Harding last night he suggested fitting a later series damper adjuster and using that to reduce the hardness of the damping...so will be investigating sourcing that and getting that fitted too.

Not to push this point too hard, the wheels might be balanced, but may still be out of true... they can have a side to side wobble. It happens with the older wheels, the flange to the hub is thin metal, and over time, they take a set. They can balance that out (sort of) but it doesn't quite fix the problem. I've found this to be a problem on Aurelias and Appias.

Refit the wheels with 90 degree rotation with respect to the hubs, and test drive your car, Andrea

I had a similar problem with my Aprilia which took me a while to remedy.
Noel Macwhirter and I first checked the front end alignment and found it be within tolerance. I had new tyres fitted and balanced but still had the problem. Geoff Goldberg’s comments are pertinent as it became evident that the wheels were out of true and the problem was resolved once the wheels were repaired.
My car is fitted with Fergat wheels which are of a fairly lightweight construction. A common problem is that over tightening the wheel nuts will crush the mound around the stud hole which will send the wheel off-true. I guess the use of brass wheel nuts was intended to mitigate this problem as most people would be wary of damaging the nut.
All four wheels required adjustment on my car so I suspect the problem is very common and Geoff’s comments are apt. The lesson for me was that a “balanced” wheel is not necessarily “true”.

Ref wheels: I fitted two spare wheels with old tyres on I have to the front of the Aprilia and then went for another short drive round the block this morning.  It did drive a little better- so I do think I should get my wheels checked over and potentially "trued up". ...however the viscous wheel wobble is still there...and I think the critical symptom is that it is not there all the time and does not appear at certain speeds...it just seems to happen randomly, but often.  It does seem to be brought on in a mild way with braking (again not all the time), but this morning I was doing about 30mph downhill and all was smooth, then as I went uphill at the same speed, I suddenly got violent front wheel shake - it really felt like I was about to lose a wheel. I tried to drive through it, then bottled it and slowed right down until it stopped. I then proceeded home at about between 20-30 mph and did not get any further wobble... so I am heavily suspecting that it is the clearances on the front suspension bushes - they are out of tolerance and may be the cause...anyone have similar issues?

I have always put my "2 best wheels" on the front and as Andrea suggests, move them through 90° to get the best position. The issue is that it isn't the wheels that need to be balanced , but the wheel/drum assembly. You can see that the drums have balance weights on them as well

If you back off the adjusters and have nice bearings you can begin to play with this. If I spin my wheels they will rotate for 3 or 4 minutes and always stop in the same place. Then you can add weight to the top and gradually improve things.

To my mind, any wheel/drum imbalance exacerbates any wear issues in the sliding pillar bearings and causes wobble. it is time consuming to get it right - a bit like propshaft vibration on Aurelias/Flaminias I suspect

So the less wheel/drum wobble, the less the sliding pillar wobble

I may be talking utter rubbish ...... so please take with large pinch of salt

The other thing to consider perhaps is the horrible rubber bushes in the steering.    You will find my post in the technical thread about how to replace these with nice rose joints (with MUCH improved feel and precision in steering).

There are a few ways (too many, sadly) that shimmy and wobble can come into the steering system, and be felt at the steering wheel. Including -

- wheel balance and trueness. Already discussed.
- tires - they aren't made quite the same as they were. It can sneak in here too.
- drum balance
- steering linkage, including tie rod ends
- wear in the sliding pillar assemblies
- alignment - sometimes adjusting the toe-in can cure this.

My experience is with Aurelias and Appias, and it may differ from Aprilias. But sometimes, its intermittent - shimmy shows feels terrible, and then goes away. Not sure why.

 

Please allow me to pass on my experiences of the Augusta front suspension which, I believe, is not far from the Augusta. I do agree with the previous inputs made by Geoff, Simon, and Andrew. I just want to go a bit more into details. I assume the sliding pillars themselves are sorted.

Wheels: We speak about balancing. IMHO that should be dynamic balancing. There will be balance weights on the outside AND the inside of the rim. Anything less is not enough. Most balancing machines accept the wheel by the centre hole on a tapered shaft. That was not accurate enough in the case of my Augusta. Fortunately, my friendly tyre dealer down the road has an older balancing machine which accepts the wheel by the 4 bolt holes as on the car. That made all the difference in my case. The drum balance is an issue, but less so, as the diameter is much less. However it's a good idea to mark the position of the wheel to the brake drum once the wheel is sorted. And every time when a tyre is taken from the rim for some reason, the balancing should be repeated. I do balance the rear wheels as well.

Steering linkage: I know I am on thin ice on that. The silent blocks should be in good order, not deformed or brittle. Little play between eccentric bolts and inner bush of the silent block is desirable. The eccentric bolts or nuts should only be tightened snug, not clamped. If clamped, a springy element (rubber) is introduced into the steering linkage, which can intensify a tendency for shimmy.

Toe-in: The book states a toe-in of 5/16 in. The book does not state where the measurement is made, normally at the inside of the rims. However, this not possible when the rims are distorted, even a little. A solution would be, to attach a length of wood to a flat part of the brake drums and take the data from there.

Steering: It's desirable to have as little play as possible in the steering box. Instructions to adjust can be found elsewhere in to forum.

Karl

ref rubber bushes in the steering...they are all new - still rubber, but all new. so don't think it is that.

Today I put three different wheels on the front, so including the original two, that's five different wheels and got the viscous wobble with them all...so do not think it is the wheels...unless they are all bad (possible of course!)...what I did notice was that when I took a front passenger with me I did not get any wobble... and when I put 4 galls of petrol in the tank and drove it on my own again I got really severe wobble...so I have concluded it is sensitive to weight on the front wheels, the more weight on the front, the less likely the wobble is ... does that make any sense - point to anything in particular?

Once upon a time it was possible to balance wheels on the car.  I do not know if this still happens but it might be worth exploring.

Although I have not had any trouble with wheel balance on Aprilias or Augustas I have with other cars over the years.
The discussion has mentioned balancing but without reference to the accuracy used. Garages will normally balance to 10gms, particularly if they think it is only an old car, whereas a 5gms (or better) may be what is required for Lancia sliding pillars with little friction in the system. I have sometimes had to be insistent to get this extra precision. 
Wobble coming and going is, I think, due to a small inbalance on both front wheels which changes depending on where the wheel are in relation to each other and therefore compensating or compounding any error. Unless it is well balanced then a small bump can set it off.
Important that there is some toe-in or toe-out and worth experimenting with this and tyre pressures. Tyre wear also has affect.
It can be elusive, as you have found, but very pleasing when sorted.
   

morning All,

ref wheel balancing, the wheels have been balanced to within 5g's, all the tyres and tubes are new and i have rotated through a further 3 different wheels (from my spare set) onto the front wheels...and seen no change in the really bad wobble. I have also checked the tracking and set it at 0. All the steering bushes are new too. The wobble moves the whole front of the car - its not just a vibration through the wheel, it feels like the wheels are about to fall off - its that bad and its random, not coming in at a particular speed...bumps seem to set it off...but not consistently.  I guess it may be the brake drums (as they are  not perfect) and it would be good to get the wheels balanced on the car just to finally close this avenue off....but the only company i can find to do that are based in Oxford (60 miles from me) - so i would have to get the Aprilia trailered there and they charge £160...

i now suspect its still the damping and plan to have another look at the damping rods to make sure they are working correctly..

An odd thought....

- if its not the wheels, and if random, probably not brakes out of balance either.
- if steering linkage all seems tight
- not wheel bearings or anything else you can check
- and if its really random

So what else could it be? 

In the Aurelia with a perfectly good balanced tire and brake assembly, sometimes brake use gets a big wobbling, feels like everything is out of balance - a shudder - which goes away w more pushing on the brakes. Likely brake related - doesn't seem like your problem.

Might it be a looseness in the pillars? Years ago I saw in Italy that they were remaking the main bottom internal fitting in the Aurelia sliding pillar - saying it wore over time. The problems we see with the pillar were typically related to the seals and the small little floating discs not working right - but this suggests some (!) may have extensive wear internally.

Only suggested, not sure at all about this. 

Difficult to give a diagnosis from a distance. May I suggest following:

With the car on it's wheels, stand outside the driver's seat and check how much you can move the steering wheel left / right before a movement can be seen at the front wheel. Should be less than an in. If an exessive play is noted, that can be: The play inside the steering box; a loose drop arm at the steering box; worn excentric pins on drop arm, drag link and track rod, or a sum of all play in the steering circuit.

With the car on it's wheels, have a person moving the steering wheel both ways with some force while checking from underneath the attachment of the steering box at the frame, loose steering arms attached to each sliding pillar. You might have to remove the radiator grille to see the attachment bolts. Cracks around the steering box and if there is a flexible coupling near the steering box, condition of it. Might be splines though.

Have a person shake the car sideways by brute force that much that the sliding pillars move considerably. Check for undue side movement. Only up and down movement permitted, (except turning of course) Check attachment of the front axle at the frame, perhaps torque of the bolts.

Probably a bit far off, but if the rear axle has some undue movement, would that have an influence for inducing a wobbling at the front?

I hope that helps

Karl

David, I don't know the Lancia recommendation for toe-in but the "Trader" service data for the Aprilia has it as 0 to 2mm and I would set it to 2. Experience tells me that it might help.
Mike

thanks very much for all the suggestions...today I reset the toe in at 2 degrees...but no improvement gained...I then also checked the steering play...I have about 2 inches of steering wheel movement before I see movement at the wheels.  So this evening I removed the steering box. It was firmly attached and there was no cracks in the body, so no issues there. Next step is to adjust the steering box to hopefully remove all play and re fit...

There is an Aprilia steering box just now on PrewarCar.
Might be an opportunity!

That is certainly too much movement in my opinion, they are easy to adjust but take care not to overtighten them because you can get nasty tight spots when you turn the steering wheel

Try filling with nice thick "grease/oil" at the same time. Penrite do a version

Thanks Simon, will take a look..in the meantime can anyone advise me on which way to turn the eccentric bush on the underneath of the steering box (see pic). I have removed the large locking washer and turning the bush either way requires a quite a bit of force applied by a hammer and screwdriver, and either direction does not move very far...

David,

I just sent you a PM with a copy of an Aprilia Service booklet attached which is to large a size to be attached here.

Please make sure that the steering is not binding at each end of travel as most wear on the gears is around the centre position.

Karl

Many thanks for forwarding Karl, but the servicing doc does not describe which way to turn the eccentric bush to remove play...clockwise or anti clockwise??

I have no knowledge of the Lancia box but my Salmson has a similar eccentric bush on the droparm shaft which when turned, moves the shaft radially to reduce or increase the clearance between worm and wheel. There is only one close clearance position so it does not matter which rotational direction you approach from. I can adjust this and when refitted to the car can check the result by turning the road wheels from lock to lock thus spinning the steering wheel and can  easily tell when it is all free with no tight spots and minimum play.

Mike Clark

Hi David,
Before the suspension work did the Car drive OK. If it did, It must be something to do with the rebuild. I would be inclined to have another go at the repair.
Do both sides bounce the same, pushing on the front wings.
regards, John

HI John,
yes the issue was there before...thats why I started the rebuild...and yes they bounce the same each side...all very frustrating!  am concentrating on the steering box currently.
kind regards
David.

Hi David,
Thanks I see it`s been ongoing.
 If the "Kingpin" bushes are ok, you need the wheel on the ground to check , otherwise the axle drops down to an unworn part on the bushes.
and you have tightened the nuts on the Silentblocs in the straight ahead position (the rubber does the movement) and your steering box is ok any small movement of the steering wheel will move the road wheel, no slack. Hopefully no wobble.
At Harry`s (Farnham) he had a "Hunter" type wheel balancer  see:-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx6z8a3RzH0 and any odd problems he would spin the road wheel up with this type machine, the wheel going round at 70mph put the willies up me at the time.
Maybe you could fabricate some bent  bits of flat steel to go on 2 wheel nuts, then spin the wheel with an H/D electric drill/ air ratchet.
cheers
John

well well, just looked on facebook market, someone is selling a churchill MK4  wheel balancer, same type harry had, for 400 quid in wellinborough.
John

I got some expert help and managed to dismantle the steering box today.  We found that the two bearings holding the worm drive (part numbers 48303 and 48384 in the picture) were worn - so they definitely need replacing - they were marked made in Italy RIV 4AO and made in Italy RIV 5AO...any ideas what that corresponds to if I am replacing with an SKF??

Have been dvised by Noel that the bearing codes are 7204 and 7203...so they are on order now...

An update on progress.  I rebuilt the steering box during the week with new bearings from SKF...it went back together well (apart from lots of fiddling with the tiny roller bearings). Once together again the box then turned really smoothly with no signs of end float of wear.  I then put it back on the car and took it for a quick test drive...same problem is still there...really bad wheel wobble!! Next plan is to take it to get a four wheel laser alignment check to see what the camber and caster is...I am now strongly suspecting the castor angle is wrong, as am running out of other ideas...

Marc Bondini found these little magnetic-attachment inclinometers, which he simply puts on the sliding pillar after leveling the car on the lift, and it tells the angle of the pillar (caster). You may need to run some more camber, if its a small number...

i managed to get the Aprilia to my local specialist today and the measurements were as below:

Castor : LHS = -0.74degreees, RHS= -2.01degrees

- according to the data sheets it should be 0 degrees, so i now plan to put some shims in between the axle and the body at the axles attachment points to correct the castor.

Toe in was measured as LHS = -0.16degrees and RHS = +0.85degrees

the data sheet states it should be "parallel to 2mm; also stated as 6mm and 7mm" - any idea what that means?

Camber was LHS = +1.48degrees and RHS +0.98degrees

the data sheet states "17mm for 165x400 wheels" - any idea what that means in degrees?

update on the front wheel violent wobble:

After a huge amount of time spent drilling out and then rethreading one of the axle bolts i managed to reset the castor to the correct 0 degrees and took the Aprilia for another test run...no real progress -still a severe front wheel shake/shimmy/wobble...i then noticed there was a very slight amount of movement between the output spline from the steering box and the steering arm...so i tightened the bolt on the steering arm a lot and stopped the movement.  I then took the Aprilia for a run - and hey presto problem solved!!

so conclusion: with a severe steering wobble ensure: all steering bushes are new, rebuild steering box, rebuild sliding pillars, set toe in and castor correctly and tighten all bolts on steering arms - and problem should go!

Hallelujah !

Well done, I hope that the splines aren't worn, if they are let me know I have several new links or output shafts

Well done David - your immense persistence paid off!
I wonder which of the various works you completed had the most significant positive effect?
Chris

Hi Chris,

my guess is that the toe in and then removing all play from the steering were the main solutions...but due to the sequence i followed i will never be sure on how much the sliding pillars broken spring and blocked damper holes were also contributing!...oh well onwards to the rear of the car now...:)