Lancia Motor Club

Hi Brian, the wonders of modern petrol? Andrea

Ethanol is a menace and should be avoided.

Agreed - why buy and pay tax to buy oxygen when it is free all around us.
Mike Clark

Hi Andrea,
Must admit the thought did cross my mind.
Up to now I haven't really noticed a problem using E5, and I have no intention of using E10.
Could have turned out much worse with petrol flowing until I could stop.

Brian
8227 8).

Thank you all for your replies, some really useful detail.  Do you think it best just to buy a new one from Omicron to ensure a quality item (assuming that’s the case)?

Once running I will be adding Millers VSPe to negate the effects of the ethanol, I use it all up the time in my old 911

Many Esso stations sell 99 octane marked E5 that doesn’t actually contain any ethanol. 5% is a maximum and it does not have to contain any. Their website gives more information on which garages have it.

over the years I have tried Esso and recently gave it another go because of the “0” E. However my Fulvias really never go as well as when run on VPower or 2nd choice BP. Cant explain it but Esso pinks more and runs badly in hot conditions.

Hello Tim, worth considering to decoke the valves and combustion chambers? Andrea

I gather the Esso zero ethanol E5 depends which refinery it comes from so varies between regions. Thankfully in Mid Beds I am in a zero ethanol area.

From the Esso website:

Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation.

That's news to me on the Esso fuel - thanks.
I know when I had a Mazda RX-8 many years ago it did not like BP fuel as much so clearly there are variations in petrol out there.
I always try and fill the Fulvia with super unleaded and hadn't specifically noticed any difference between suppliers but that ethanol position is interesting.

It would be good if they were a little more specific in geographic terms - I wonder what they mean by North England? Living in Yorkshire people in London say I am in the north whilst people in Tyneside say I'm in the south! No idea if the Esso petrol I buy locally would have ethanol or not.

As a comparison I could test in this area, if others could test in their own areas? I will post my result .

E5 has a result of 5% here. (East Sussex independent brand.)

Where did you get the tester, I'd like to see what it is in my area.

This one is a tube borrowed from a hydrometer, cork at the base. Ruler for reference. Could have bought something purpose made for £5 +.
Petrol to the '100% mark', add water to make another 10%.
Shake and the seperation point is at 15% mark.
Minus the 10% water gives 5% result.
Added dye accounted for.
My calibrated  beaker would be better.
Interested to see your area results and I will test my Esso E5 when I am at my garage next.

Richard

Should this be a separate thread as it has much wider significance than just Fulvia?

Brilliant idea Frank, can someone cleverer than me convert this to a new 'Ethanol' thread?

Richard

I'll set up a new thread at weekend and move relevant posts

P

this is the result of E5 fuel in my augusta , it even destroyed the brass gauze on the in tank fuel filter on a customers aprilia turning the fuel green , i would dread to think what E10 does

What a mess!
Someone I know with an Austin 7 said it destroyed his brass float.
Brian
8227 8)

James, I've seen nothing like that on my car. Had yours been standing for a long time and which brand of fuel? I wonder if different brands have different ingredients - hard to assess as the fuel you get depends which refinery it came from as much as which brand.

I keep saying this but it's worth repeating - from 1930 to the 60's Cleveland Discol contained 15% ethanol and we never hear that it dissolved brass bits so the problem must be more to do with what is in modern fuel than just the presence of ethanol.

There seems no difference in the running of my Augusta on E5 or E10 but when using E10 I once added Ethanolamate thinking to protect things - it screwed up the lambda sensor on the Air/Fuel ratio gauge I had fitted to sort out the carb so that's not an option.

I try to ensure that the tank is full to the brim before laying up for the winter on with the aim of minimising the fuel surface area through which ethanol can absorb water to cause trouble. Fuel manufacturers reckon on only 2 or 3 months life of fuel in the tank presumably because they bulk it up with highly volatile short chain hydrocarbons (butane etc) which evaporate.

Mike Clark

If you Google: which metals does ethanol attack, there’s a lot of information out there. It can get very technical and I would recommend it to those who need a cure for insomnia!

I’ve only picked out some of the information from some of the reports but my takeaway is that I would try not use fuel with ethanol in it in old vehicles if I can avoid it due to long term corrosion issues.

both cars where stood through the winter , Texaco fuel from our local petrol station, E5 super unleaded , have also seen an augusta fuel tap rot off with horrible green corrosion , thats not a local car to me so different fuel supplier , j

I suspect it is really water that the ethanol absorbs from the atmosphere rather than the ethano itself.

I think it is more important then ever, with ethanol fuel, to completely empty the fuel system if storing the car over winter.

Here in Sweden the situation is even worse, here E5 and E10 means average 5% and 10% ethanol over a year. That means that we get a lot less ethanol in winter because it works even worse when really cold, and a lot more ethanol in the summer when we use our Lancias. I will try to go up a size in jets to compensate...

On the other hand, I had a friend with a Alfa 6C 1750 GS, he got very happy when E85 was introduced in Sweden, he did a home mix to about 50% Ethanol, which he claimed was were close to the race petrol used at the time.

Got the appia out this weekend , i was shocked at fuel belching out of the fuel pump as the brass banjo bolt had corroded through on the output of the pump, then it wouldn't start , you can see why, this again is a well maintained dry stored car with ethanol fuel e5 , terrible stuff , i try to run the carbs dry on vehicles being laid up for the winter and put away hot to evaporate anything left in them

This is the process I use to remove Ethanol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mLbuUSt-0

Good to know it can be done, but how many people would actually be prepared to do this?
10 litres of fuel represents about 50 miles of driving to me, so not very practical.
However I do have an esso station about 4 miles away so I fill up there, as reputedly their 99 octane doesn't have any ethanol.
A full tank plus 10lt in my 'Paddy Hopkirk explosasafe can' that gives me about a 200 mile range, more than enough for me to go anywhere these days without taking out a mortgage!
What is of interest is what are those who don't use their cars during the winter going to do?
Will they need to drain the tank Carburettors, fuel lines?
As I can see that creating it's own problems come the spring.
Brian
8227 : 8)

Hi Brian, with mixed driving (town, motorway) a Fulvia (non HF) with a full tank should drive about 350 km. In reality it should do more but it is wise not to trust the old fuel gauge too much. If fuel consumption is a lot higher, the car is out of tune (most Fulvias I have seen are running poorly) or the right foot is excessively heavy. During winter it should be possible to find one day/month when the weather is reasonable to drive out 20 miles. This helps a lot to keep the car in good shape. Best, Andrea

Just remember that Ethanol is not the only bad thing about modern fuel.

Martin Cliffe wrote an excellent article in Viva Lancia some 20 years ago about modern fuel.
Back then the fuel companies calculated on a shelf life on max 2 months for "petrol" fuel (and I doubt that has been improved since)

I think the best way is either empty all fuel during winter or try some more stabel petrol like alkylate for the last run of the season.

I have been filling my Lancias to the brim when storing over winter to minimise  the risk of  internal rusting of the fuel tank through condensation. To date I have never had "stale fuel" problems This .  I have had rotten fuel tanks from cars where the previous owners stored their cars with  near empty tanks and condensation rots through the top section especially in not very dry  garages. Damp air getting in  through the breather unit. Until  I get stale fuel problems I will continue to brim the tanks with E5 or lower fuel. I recognise ethanol will separate out to the bottom which is the where the fuel feed pipe is but with S2 Fulvias this should not  be a problem with fuel return pipe... Only time  will tell. All  the joys of owning a classic....

Hi Andrea,
It's probably the heavy right foot as the the best consumption I've managed was an average of 27.5mpg over a distance of nearly 3500 miles.
I know Justin certainly gets over 30mpg from his 2c.
I have dellorto 32 Dhla's fitted that were new 20,000 miles ago, she runs very nicely  and will tick over like a sewing machine, she always smells a bit on the rich side, so I  suppose it might be worth getting her set up on a rolling road, but as I only cover about 1000 miles a year now its never been a problem.
During the winter if its a dry day and there's no salt on the road, I take her for
a 30 to 40 mile drive to get nice and warm and everything working, every week if possible..
The fuel consumption of the series 1 1.3 Rallye Coupe I used to own was much better, but on the other hand it was considerably lighter, and the 1300cc engine didn't have to work as hard as 1091cc to pull the weight around, it also had higher gearing.
Brian

It looks like a modified rain gauge to me!
You could probably make one yourself by using the dimensions illustrated by the tape measure?
Brian

Hi Brian, very interesting to know you are using Dellortos 32 mm on your Fulvia. I have never seen them in this size. Could you please post a picture as this might be of interest to anyone running a 1.1.or 1.2 Fulvia? Thanks. Andrea

Lancialulu, interested in your comment about ethanol seperation at bottom of tank not being a problem with fuel return pipe, could you elaborate please.

Sean

Well I thought about it a  bit more. I was worried about increased water separating out of the ethanol (as it is hydroscopic).... but as the ethanol is sealed by the petrol it can only separate out what is in it. Anyway to answer your q Series 2 Fulvia and other Lancias after have a fuel return pipe which flows fuel back to the tank which must act as a mixer. Anyway do  we  know if engines can run on near pure ethanol....

OK, I suppose if the car manages to start driving it will slosh the fuel about and mix it as well.

Sean

I'll take photos tomorrow, Slip of the finger they are 32DHLB's not DHLA's
Brian
8827 8)

Here's a photo of my DHLB's.

Thank you very much Brian, best regards, Andrea

By the way, very good to see that your rad has a good louvre window thermostat, Andrea

In all my years of Fulvia ownership I have never seen one of those!
Presumably you have a set of shutters in front of the radiator which are opened/closed by the lever on the stat?
Chris

Yes I do Chris, unfortunately about 15 years ago I had the rad rebuilt and it's too high and I couldn't get the shutter fixings to line up.
However they are all safely stored so they can be fitted sometime in the future!
They did work but I'm still not sure what advantage they give, as having the engine thermostat I would have thought that would be sufficient, like you I've never seen another, so perhaps Lancia took the same view, it's quite a complicated bit of kit
Brian
8227 8)

Hi Andrea,
As you can see they are a straight fit to the solex manifold and no problem fitting the standard air cleaner.
When I bought them back about 2003 they came already jetted for the car, so an easy replacement for the solexes.
'Fay' runs much smoother with them , a great advantage and they rarely seem to go out of tune.
Unfortunately louvres not fitted at present, as when I had the radiator rebuilt they built it too high, that also gave me problems with the bonnet release having to be bent upwards to clear the top hose, took me a little while to work out what was wrong!
Brian
8227 8)