Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: Keithver on 26 January, 2023, 05:21:47 PM



Title: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 26 January, 2023, 05:21:47 PM
 The car is home after 18 months all shiny and new, looking good in Lancia Blu. Even the inspector seems impressed. Now begins the re-assembly. I hope I took enough photos before hand


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: JollyClubUK on 26 January, 2023, 06:33:01 PM
Going to look amazing, many hours of reassembly I guess but it’s a Labour of love.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Wangler on 27 January, 2023, 12:03:16 AM
I didn’t think a cat was compulsory until 1993.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 27 January, 2023, 07:03:19 AM
Julien - a labour of love indeed. I'm glad I don't have to charge for my hours, let alone what everything has cost so far

Richard - maybe I just got lucky :)


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: JollyClubUK on 27 January, 2023, 08:19:40 AM
Keep posting picture updates for those that need the inspiration and then once completed just enjoy your hard work.
My S2 had been in the stewardship of the previous owner for over 25 years and he certainly cherished the car.
I am out most weekends for a run and thoroughly enjoy my Fulvia.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 27 January, 2023, 12:39:30 PM
She is a beauty and an inspiration to me. I'll keep posting progress


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: ColinMarr on 27 January, 2023, 07:45:16 PM
Lovely Fulvia. Cats on cars did exist in earlier times - here's one from 1967.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 28 January, 2023, 04:13:18 PM
Colin - best hood ornament ever!

I have completed the sound deadening on the firewall and dash areas - enough to start with the wiring. I didn't realize what hard work it would be, but careful measuring and some templates got the job done. I realize now that the pedal housing should have gone in before the steering column. Easy enough to remedy. Photo 1

I have two heater boxes. The better one of the two turns out to be more difficult to install. On the good one, the four bolts that fasten the box to the firewall are welded, two to an interior plate, per side with no way to stop the plate going back into the box when offering the box to the firewall. My solution was to grind most of the depth of four nuts away. Just enough to hold the mount bolts tight and clamp the fan to the box. Photo 2. The thick rubber gasket hides my fix. The box went in perfectly after that. I remembered to fit the two large wiring grommets on either side of the heater box, in the firewall first

I recall how difficult it was to remove the windscreen wiper mechanism and have been dreading the refitting. I removed the 3 bolts holding the motor to the mount. It gives more wiggle room. Maneuver the passenger side spindle just into the the mount hole, so you are able to see the end from above. Then do the driver's side. With a bit of jiggling I replaced the 3 motor mount bolts. You can now twist the whole contraption and get the two spindles properly seated with top rubbers, cover plate and the large lock nut holding it all in place. I cut the threads of the 'mount rubber blocks' to the correct length to make it easier to screw them into the body. Then lift the mount plate over them and fasten the whole lot up tight.

And for some quick eye candy and inspiration to get going, I fitted all the rear details. Photo 3. Bumper still to be fitted ;)


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: JollyClubUK on 28 January, 2023, 04:48:52 PM
Coming along nicely thanks for sharing the update.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: andyps on 29 January, 2023, 07:51:57 PM
The car is home after 18 months all shiny and new, looking good in Lancia Blu. Even the inspector seems impressed. Now begins the re-assembly. I hope I took enough photos before hand

I think if a cat walked over a freshly painted car of mine it would be looking for a new home - that cat that is, not the car!! The car looks great.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 08 April, 2023, 10:21:55 AM
I've been on light duty for the last 8 weeks and have been taking things easy.
I started by making paper templates for the cubby hole liner and then progressed to slightly bigger tasks.
I fitted all of the electrical fittings. It wasn’t the tough job I was expecting. Not knowing anything about wiring, when I disconnected everything initially, I made sure that I labeled both sides of the connector. It really made putting it all back far easier.

I struggled with the main (inner) beams.  They would just not light up. I removed the switch and re-soldered all the wires. Still no luck. Then it dawned on me. RTFM! Sure enough, clear as daylight, in the manual - how to turn on the high beams. That's that one ticked off.
The hooters were working fine until the fiddling. They now sound when I put the indicator on. I'm sure that can’t be complicated to fix.

I have taped up all of the cable runs with black cloth tape to neaten up everything. There aren’t any multi coloured wires visible anywhere.
Instead of spending 4Euro per cable hanger that press into the holes in the boot and bonnet gutters, I found some rubber buttons and sheet rubber and made up my own. They cost me a couple of cents each.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 08 April, 2023, 10:52:29 AM
I will post more later, but in the mean time I have a query about wheel bearings.
I fitted new bearings to the front wheels almost two years ago. I fitted the large bearing-holding ring to the inside of the hub with a homemade tool and got them fairly tight (I will purchase the correct tool for final assembly). I also inserted the drive shafts and tightened the nut on the end so it wouldn’t come loose, but nowhere near the required torque. Now that I come to inspect, it seems as if the new bearings have worn out. There is about 5 or 10mm play when I grab the top of the wheel and move it. Looking from the inside of the hub it seems as if there is movement on the inner ring of the bearing. The car was moved around the body shop while there, that’s all.
Could this have worn the bearings or have I got something else wrong. I hope so, as replacing the 2 bearings will be expensive


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 08 April, 2023, 11:22:27 AM
The bearings only operate when fully torqued 200ftlb from memory. Both inner and outer. You need to remove the wire circlip on the inner before torquing. As the hub is on the car you should be able to apply enough effort to tighten. Failure to tighten (use a scaffold pole ore water pipe as a lever) the inner will lead to very expensive stub hub wear (were yours in un worn condition?). BTW the club hires these tools....


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 08 April, 2023, 03:00:20 PM
Thanks Tim. I'm reasonably sure that nothing is worn. Just to make sure that I understand you correctly, once I have torqued the inner hub ring (with spring clip) and the shaft outer cardan nuts, the wobble should stop. Sounds like the answer I want :). I would love to hire, thanks, but I'm not in the UK.
One other thing. While in the body-shop, I went through a set of outer CV boots. I've subsequently discovered that I hadn't fastened the boots high enough on the shaft. Is their a recommended position for clamping on the shaft. I haven't been able to find a mark on the shafts for this


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: JollyClubUK on 08 April, 2023, 03:23:42 PM
Slow and steady wins the race, great to see more progress thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 08 April, 2023, 04:02:08 PM
bout 15 years ago
Thanks Tim. I'm reasonably sure that nothing is worn. Just to make sure that I understand you correctly, once I have torqued the inner hub ring (with spring clip) and the shaft outer cardan nuts, the wobble should stop. Sounds like the answer I want :). I would love to hire, thanks, but I'm not in the UK.
One other thing. While in the body-shop, I went through a set of outer CV boots. I've subsequently discovered that I hadn't fastened the boots high enough on the shaft. Is their a recommended position for clamping on the shaft. I haven't been able to find a mark on the shafts for this
Keith. The wobble should stop if everything is tight. JUst confirm you have the right bearings as about 15-20 years ago SKF were no longer available but another skf was but with shallower depth and some vendors would sell but yoiu would need a (thin) packing piece. I have not seen these alternative bearings for some time. Regarding the outer boot (assuming you are using Lancia and not universal type) is to pull the boot down the drive shaft enough so the the inner race of the CV joint does not touch it or it will cut it during operation. Shove a small screwdriver between the boot and shaft to ensure the boot has no trapped air.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 09 April, 2023, 08:57:44 AM
Thanks for the encouragement Julien.
Tim, you are the Man with the answers :) Thank you. The Lancia guy here got the bearings for me. I would hope that he knows about the correct ones. I suppose the only way to measure is to take them out again. I'll reset the CV boots to your spec.
The sound deadening went into the roof before the headlining. I made a full size paper template of where the sun visor screw holes are. Definitely worth it. Norm Thomas wrote up a brilliant guide for this installation (and others). It made the headliner installation far easier to do. Thanks Norm. The end result is quite pleasing especially after using a heat gun to tension everything up. The photo shows less than half the clips I ended up using. The more fold-over clips one has, the better. The back seat has been installed for some self encouragement


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: JollyClubUK on 09 April, 2023, 10:25:58 AM
Simply stunning, with the attention to detail this little Fulvia is going to be superb.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 09 April, 2023, 11:58:26 AM
Keith I would torque hub the hub  and retaining nuts first before disassembly.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 15 April, 2023, 10:07:25 AM
Thanks Tim, I'm waiting for the correct tool to arrive from Pieces. I'll then be able to torque everything correctly.

Next on the list was the gutters and window rubber channels. There were so many holes of different sizes, in the gutter areas, from previous fittings that I asked the body shop to weld them all up. Someone said I would struggle to drill new holes into the welded positions, but fortunately I didn’t have any trouble. I squeezed some waterproof sealer into the gutter channel, where it joins the body, before fitting and put a layer onto the window rubber channel before screwing the whole lot into position.
The old door top rubbers looked fine to me, so I fitted them. There was a suggestion that I should coat the rubbers with lubricant to make fitting easier. It is actually easier to fit them dry as the lube makes them too slippery to press the lip into the channel.

The rear vent windows got new rubbers as the old ones were shot. The new ones needed to be cut to size and angled in the corners. I cut them all slightly long and trimmed them to the final size where necessary.
I had to braze 3 of the 4 M3 brass bolts into the window frame pivot channel as they were missing. I also turned 3 new brass cone nuts needed to hold the vents into the B pillar. It wasn’t too difficult to re-locate the existing latch screw holes with a scriber. They were screwed up tight while someone else pressed the vent from the outside.

I then washed the car to test for leaks and there was a fair amount of water inside when I had finished. It looks as if the existing door window rubbers are too hard to allow a proper seal. I'm going to have to get the new rubbers.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 15 April, 2023, 10:14:23 AM
Keith

Did you load the windscreen rubbers with non setting windscreen sealant before fitting. Messy but works. New rubbers may still not seal everywhere....


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 15 April, 2023, 04:35:05 PM
Tim it's the door rubbers. Ive still got to get to the windscreens, unless I miss understand you


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: HBG on 16 April, 2023, 04:50:54 PM
Hi Keith.

The car looks great! Can I ask why you chose to fit sound deadening material to the floors and roof? Does it add much weight?

Also, have you undersealed/ rust proofed the car?

Thanks, Howard


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 17 April, 2023, 08:55:11 AM
Thanks Howard. The sound deadening also acts as heat protection. Tapping an un-deadened panel gives a really tinny sound. The deadening takes that away. I would say that it adds about 4 or 5 kilos to the cars weight. It has been 'stone-chipped' underneath and sills/doors/panels etc have been given a coating of anti corrosion coating


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 18 April, 2023, 07:59:56 AM

I ordered new window scraper seals and glued them with contact adhesive and screwed them to the outer steel trim strips. The ends of the screws inside the channel  needed to be cut off with a Dremel to allow fitting. The fit along the main windows is fairly loose, so I presume that the channel needs to be closed until it is a tight fit. The end that goes along the forward vent window is a really tight fit and will need to be gently hammered (with a protective block of wood) in between the door and the vent frame/rubber. Have I made correct assumptions here please?


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 29 April, 2023, 10:16:58 AM
I am almost ready to mount the re built rear brake calipers. I see that there is an 'adjusting shim' in the photo of TAV 41. I only have one each per side. Is that correct. If it is, does it go on the lower or upper retaining bolt. What is there a reason for this shim please


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 29 April, 2023, 10:30:41 AM
Keith

Did you load the windscreen rubbers with non setting windscreen sealant before fitting. Messy but works. New rubbers may still not seal everywhere....
Hi Tim, back to the windscreen rubbers. I have bought a tube of the non-setting-sealant. Am I correct in thinking that the sealant only goes between the glass and the rubber for installation. Not between rubber and body. Apparently the windscreens need to be fitted with the chrome lock strips fitted before installation. I appreciate your help and advice. Thank you


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 29 April, 2023, 10:56:29 AM
Caliper adjusting shims: in theory there should be shims for the front and rear calipers. In the real world they are usually missing after such a long time. I have not noticed any difference in braking efficiency or pad wear with or without them. Andrea


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Simon B on 29 April, 2023, 11:36:22 AM
Hi Keith,

The caliper shims are more of a concern when fitting new discs. I’ve just fitted new discs to the rear of our S3 and fitted shims to both calipers to improve alignment. The worst side had clearances to the disc of 0.7mm and 2.5mm. I thought I had ordered a pack of assorted shim material from eBay but only one sheet arrived which was too thin to be useful, I simply made some from an old steel can.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 29 April, 2023, 01:58:46 PM
thanks Andrea & Simon. I have fitted new disks. I have always imagined that the pads were self-centering.
Mine, originally ( at dismantling), had a shim on the lower bolt on both sides but not the top which would raise the question of the whole lot being skew. I would presume then, that the shims should be the same thickness on the top and lower retaining bolts - If one uses them at all. Thank you both for your help


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Simon B on 29 April, 2023, 03:28:19 PM
Hi Keith, I would think that manufacturing/assembly tolerances are such that the shims are just intended to centre the caliper and there should not be any error in alignment top to bottom of the caliper. So yes, keep it simple and use same thickness top and bottom. Mine were parallel or close enough not to worry. I just didn’t like the close proximity of caliper to the new disc (0.7mm), centred exactly it would have been 1.6mm/side.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 29 April, 2023, 04:37:06 PM
That makes sense. I'm with you on that. thanks


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 30 April, 2023, 07:44:29 AM
Keith

Did you load the windscreen rubbers with non setting windscreen sealant before fitting. Messy but works. New rubbers may still not seal everywhere....
Hi Tim, back to the windscreen rubbers. I have bought a tube of the non-setting-sealant. Am I correct in thinking that the sealant only goes between the glass and the rubber for installation. Not between rubber and body. Apparently the windscreens need to be fitted with the chrome lock strips fitted before installation. I appreciate your help and advice. Thank you

You load it in the gap in the rubber where the body fits - you can do the glass as well but not necessary. Very messy and you will not enjoy cleaning up!


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 30 April, 2023, 07:46:48 AM
Caliper adjusting shims: in theory there should be shims for the front and rear calipers. In the real world they are usually missing after such a long time. I have not noticed any difference in braking efficiency or pad wear with or without them. Andrea

I only have ever found a pair of shims (c0.4mm) per rear caliper on any S2 car and as Andrea noted sometimes missing. I have never found any on the front calipers.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 30 April, 2023, 03:02:23 PM
Tim, I should have believed you from the start. I slipped the drive shafts in, torqued up the outer main nut, put the lock washer and pin in and tightened the outer nut and hey presto. Absolutely no sign of wheel wobble at all. I almost ordered a new set of bearings. I'm glad I didn't, at nearly Euro 200 each. That is brilliant thank you.
I thought I had ordered locking plates for the inner driveshaft coupling. It seems i only ordered for one side. I have some of the correct material and I'll make another pair tomorrow so that I can complete the driveshaft installation - Happiness.
Once that is done I can move on to the rear brake calipers and rear window installation when I have someone to give me a hand
Thanks again to everyone for the support and advice. It is appreciated


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 30 April, 2023, 06:20:17 PM
Caliper shims: the reason why thse are normally missing from the front calipers is probably due to the need to remove the calipers to change the pads while at the back it is a simpler affair. Thus, repeated caliper removals led to loss of the shims. On my Fulvias bought in the 80s' they were present at the front and back. Andrea


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 05 May, 2023, 04:36:36 PM
I don't seem to be posting in chronological order. the engine has been rebuilt as well as the gearbox, a while ago. I didn't have a clutch alignment tool so turned one out of hardwood. It did the job. I fitted them into the sub-frame easily enough and fitted it all into the car. As per normal, I woke in the middle of the night and realized that I hadn't fitted the gear change mechanism and gear stick. I'm sure that it can be fiddled into position without removing the whole lot, but I don't have any help and decided it would be safer to remove it all again. Its not a huge job if nothing has been connected up. I remedied the missing shifter and put it all back quickly enough.
My car is a Series 2, but has a number of Series 1 parts. The Series 1 center track rod has M12 castle nuts to hold it in place and the Series 2 has M14 nuts. I unknowingly ordered a series 2 rod and was unable to tighten the nuts enough to put a split pin in. The tapered shaft is too big. I knew the new track rod would take a while to arrive so put the old one in temporarily. The new one was fitted today. It took most of the day. You will see in the photo what is left of the highly modified 19mm spanner needed to do the job. The two notches in the handle allow leverage with a large screwdriver. it is in. Tight and split pinned - recommendation - don't do it like this if you don't have to.
I am slowly connecting everything up and adding all the bits and pieces. I have struggled to find spring clamps for the fuel hoses and the smaller water pipes. I will get them early next week and then will hopefully be able to start her. The final photo shows how she looks now.

I'm looking forward to going for my first drive. ;D


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 09 May, 2023, 08:18:30 AM
I am at the stage where I can start the car. I finally received the hose clamps I needed for the water and fuel hoses. I have filled all of the fluids. I was told that packing the oil pump with grease would aid the initial circulation of oil, which I did. I also squirted some oil into the bores. I removed the coil wire and the spark plugs so that I could turn the engine to check the oil pressure came up before the actual start up.
I turned the engine over for a good period of time, but got no reading on the oil pressure gauge at all. I'm pretty sure that the gauge registered when I bought the car. I have checked and there is now oil in the filter and on the cams and valve springs in the head. There is some circulation at least.
What would the next step be? How would one go about testing the oil pressure sender unit and the gauge. Are there any other things I should be looking out for. Thank you in advance for all of the fantastic advice that comes from the forum


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Wangler on 09 May, 2023, 12:18:07 PM
"packing the oil pump with grease" - Sounds strange to me. Oil pumps are designed to pump liquids, I cannot imagine how they would work if packed with grease. I also cannot think that introducing grease into small galleries etc. is a good idea.

I've built some engines (not many) a long time ago and just made sure that oil was liberally used on all the bearings, cotter pins, valve guides, bores, timing chain etc. Always worked for me.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Richard Fridd on 09 May, 2023, 12:39:44 PM
I expect the oil gauge could be tested for a full scale deflection by putting the sender wire to earth. And the sender with a ohm meter and thermometer. Or put the sender in a heated environment and see what happens on the gauge. Just a light grease was it?

  Richard


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 09 May, 2023, 12:51:39 PM
Always prime the oil pump with engine oil not grease. I always slacken the oil pressure joint to see oil appear then tighten back up. It takes a certain time for the pump (primed) to fill the oil filter then get up pressure.
Crank with plugs out...


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: SanRemo78 on 09 May, 2023, 03:03:02 PM
Can you remove the sender and screw in a mechanical gauge? Does the dash have a low pressure warning light and is that staying on too?


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 09 May, 2023, 04:28:55 PM
Can you remove the sender and screw in a mechanical gauge? Does the dash have a low pressure warning light and is that staying on too?
No low pressure warning on Fulvia. Even a mech gauge (which I fit to all engines I rebuild to test for oil pressure shows no oil pressure for what seems a long time on a fresh build. I just unscrew for confidence rather than believe I am breaking an air lock....

Better to crank a new engine build till oil pressure appears than fire up on a dry engine that stays dry (for what ever the reason).


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 11 May, 2023, 12:49:26 PM
Thanks for all of your advice guys. The photo shows what the oil pressure sender looks like. Bent and dented. I think I'll be doing myself a favor by buying a new one. I have taken the instrument cluster/gauges out and cleaned and tightened everything. After putting everything back together and cranking the engine, the oil gauge needle moves from the very left to almost halfway between the first two marks. Is this correct and is this enough to go ahead and start the engine. I would imagine that you only get a proper reading once the engine is running.
I checked again with the local expert and he confirmed that one should pack the oil pump with grease initially????


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 11 May, 2023, 01:07:59 PM
If that is an original sender unit (jaeger?) look on the underside and it will have scaling (0:6 or 0:7) these are not available afaik only 0:8 which will give you optimistic oil pressure!!!


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Wangler on 11 May, 2023, 02:11:10 PM
I checked again with the local expert and he confirmed that one should pack the oil pump with grease initially????


Once there’s an oil flow through the pump obviously it should flush through any grease, especially as it all warms up. But there has to be a flow first to achieve that. If you’re showing some pressure I guess that indicates that there is a flow. Whatever the case, there is no way I would “pack” an oil pump with grease and risk not even getting a flow, or restrict its initial ability to pump.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Richard Fridd on 11 May, 2023, 03:57:06 PM
I expect the oil gauge could be tested for a full scale deflection by putting the sender wire to earth. And the sender with a ohm meter and thermometer. Or put the sender in a heated environment and see what happens on the gauge. Just a light grease was it?

  Richard








My method was for a temperature gauge not a pressure gauge which I  now realise is the instrument in question.

  Richard


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 12 May, 2023, 03:04:54 PM
Ladies and gentlemen. She is officially a runner ;D.
After setting the static timing and priming the carbs, she fired almost immediately and caught properly a moment later. I now understand the joy of the first start up. BTW, the oil pressure is sitting just below the 70 mark. I'm hoping that is correct. The next step is the brakes. She need to stop now.

Thanks again for all the help and advice. You have got me this far

PS
Richard, I can do with all the info available


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 19 May, 2023, 03:38:13 PM
After the car started initially, it ran for about 5 minutes and then stopped. It sounded as if it ran out of petrol. I couldn’t get it to fire again, let alone start.
I gapped and installed a new set of plugs. She started quickly, but the whole process repeated itself.
On inspection the #1 plug was pretty clean. #2 was a little blackened, but 3 and 4 were completely black.
I tried screwing the pilot screws in and out without any noticeable difference in revs. I started out with each one open two turns as well as trying only a ¼ turn out. Neither setting seemed to make a difference.
I dis-assembled the float chambers to check the float level. The brass tube pivot of the float in the 3 &4 cylinder carb is slightly mangled at one end where it rests in the little slots. Although it doesn’t seem to stop the float moving easily.
I checked in the tech data and under C35 PHH19 there is an entry that says “level 19+-1”. I have no idea where to apply the 19+-1.
How does one go about checking and adjusting the float level?  Does one add washers under the needle and seat to lower the level?
When trying to start her again, there was a little fuel being expelled from the intake side of the carbs. Enough to coat the inside of the engine bay. She also backfires when trying to start her again. I’m sure there is an obvious answer to all of this, but it is beyond me at this stage.
I spent a lot of time setting up the valve timing with lots of help from the forum. I hope that it is correct. I made sure of TDC on #1 and then installed the distributor with the rotor facing #4 plug wire.
Has anyone got any bright ideas for me please? Once again your help is greatly appreciated


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 19 May, 2023, 06:56:01 PM
There may be various reasons for your Fulvia's problem. Let me assume that valve and ignition timings are spot on (this is not trivial). It seems that there is too much petrol in the carbs and the engine chambers. The first that comes to mind is that the carbs are badly misaligned. This can be corrected with accuracy only with vacuum meters and flow meters. Second, the needle valves should have a washer of identical thickness. Third, a slight probem with the float valve pivot can be sufficient to produce incorrect operation of one needle valve. The 19 mm value is measured with the carb cover held vertically and checking the distance between the cover base and the top of the float. Andrea


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 23 May, 2023, 10:05:20 AM
Hi Andrea. When I fit brand new spark plugs, She starts and runs for a couple of minutes, but after that, refuses to even fire even if I clean the plugs properly. The needle valves have the same thickness washer under them. I have straightened out the float pivot and it looks as it should. Fuel is being spat out of the intake side of the carb of cylinder #2, but not the rest. The carb you are referring to is obviously different to the pair I have (C35 phh). In the photo you can see that the needle and float have no fixed connection making checking the level difficult/different


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: dhla40 on 23 May, 2023, 05:27:08 PM
The 19mm is measured from the surface of the body near the jets to the surface of the fuel, this is why it is called fuel level not float level. I leave the top cover on and remove an emulsion tube and using a piece of wire bent to 19mm as a dip stick shine a torch down the well to see the level.  If you have the later carb with brass inserts add 2mm.

Sean


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 25 May, 2023, 01:14:04 PM
I removed the small cover to expose the 4 center jets in the photo in my previous post. I removed the emulsion tubes on both carbs and I dropped a cable tie into the hole. I marked the top of the cover on the tie and removed it. My measurement showed a consistent 28mm between my mark and the top of the wet fuel. To me that would mean that it is running lean. Which isn’t the case.
I also noticed that there are washers under each emulsion tube (visible in the same photo). The washers are not shown in the parts book. Could this affect things?


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: dhla40 on 26 May, 2023, 07:39:30 AM
The 19mm is from the surface of the body casting the tubes screw into, the 'washers' you see are brass inserts about 2mm thick so use a piece of wire and put a kink in it to rest on the edge of the hole and cut the lower leg to 21mm.  If you shine a torch down the well you will see the fuel level 'wink' when the wire touches it, the range is 18 to 20mm so I use three wires of 20,21 and22.  If you want to measure from the surface of the top cover you will have to add that dimension which may well be the 28mm that you have.

Sean


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 06 June, 2023, 02:36:55 PM
Hi Sean, sorry. I'm not ignoring you. Life, visitors and the cold here have kept me away from, what my wife calls, 'my girlfriend'.
I bent a 19mm fuel level dipstick today. The front carb is pretty close to the 19mm, but the rear one looks to be about 14 or 15mm. What is the procedure to change the float level. Would I bend the float arms a little.
I have also removed the washers below all four emulsion tubes (visible in the previous photo showing the carb top removed). It doesn't seem to change the running.
A further point is that when I disconnect spark plug 1 while she runs, there is no change to the revs. The other three cylinders each drop the revs. There is spark on #1. Ive cleaned the idle jet next to the emulsion tube. All to no avail. Is there anything else to check before taking the carb off.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: dhla40 on 06 June, 2023, 03:19:08 PM
There is a jig that is used to set the float, I think the dimensions are listed on the site somewhere. I just bend the arms as required to obtain the correct level. Check the air bypass screw on No1 barrel it may be too far out, if not there may be a blockage in the idle gallery, empty all fuel from the carb and try a blast of air down the idle jet hole.  Good luck.

Sean 


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 06 June, 2023, 03:58:50 PM
If a HT lead has a spark at the plug end but it does nothing to the engine idling, it suggests that there is either too little (often) or too much fuel reaching that combustion chamber. My suggestion is to slowly undo the mixture screw for your cylinder #1 and see if the idling speed improves. If not, try to screw down a little bit the same screw and see what happens. If the result is nihil, there are various possibilities: There is a blockage of the fuel supply somewhere as suggested earlier; the carbs are largely misaligned (very common even if they were properly balanced earlier) or there is sommthing wrong with cylinder # 1 compression. Good luck.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 24 October, 2023, 04:09:22 PM
Travel, family and cold weather kept me out of the garage for a long while.
Andrea, I checked the compression on all four cylinders and found it to be rather low. I think that the valves were leaking too.
To cut a long story short, I took the engine out again and started again. The bores were under size as the old pistons were worn. I had the bores honed to 77mm standard size and splashed out on new pistons, ring and main bearings.
Before removing the engine, I noticed that there was an oil leak along the sides of the sump but not along the front or back. I found that the crank front and back pieces were slightly longer than the crank case. See photo. I’d had previously used a second crank case, as the original did not have the external pipe for the dipstick.
I checked the second crankcase with the matching front and back. They lined up perfectly. My guess it that the 3 crankcase bits are fitted together in the factory and then machined together to get a flat surface across all three. (Lesson – don’t mix and match crankcase pieces)
I made up a new dipstick pipe and fitted it.
I took the front carb to the carb shop because No1 wasn’t getting fuel. They said that they had cleaned it again.

The engine is refitted now and running surprisingly well as No1 is still not firing although there is a spark. I decided to ignore this for the time being as I was becoming disheartened with the whole project.
I am concentrating on the rest of the car’s details to get my motivation going again.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 26 October, 2023, 01:57:34 PM
The brake lines have been installed for a while, but not bled. To get the fluid through the system, I applied pressure with a cork stopper in the reservoir connected to a bicycle pump. As one can see from the photo, it wasn’t successful. I would have thought the cork stopper would have popped off before the reservoir exploded.
None the less, now that the engine bay and my face were liberally coated in brake fluid, I had to do a very thorough clean up. The reservoir had cracks and was probably ready to go at some stage. I was fortunate to get a good second hand reservoir which is now fitted. I got someone to help with pumping the pedal - the conventional way.

I found Andrea’s advice (thank you) on the forum about the bleeding order for a RHD car
Left side front top
Right side front top
Left side bottom
Right side bottom
Left side rear
Right side rear
It was remarkably easy and the pedal feels good.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 29 October, 2023, 04:33:17 PM
Is there a secret to getting the clutch right?
I have got the Tech Manual and see the 37,5mm measurement for lever fitting and the fully compressed 10mm. I tried the lever in one position and had a rough measurement of 50mm to the bellhousing/ crank joint. Rotating the clutch arm one spline back gave me a measurement of about 15mm. 
Does the angle it is fitted (within reason) make much difference? I see that there is an adjustment on the pedal end of the cable. See photo. Sorry, image seems to have rotated. What is a good ball park adjustment for this?


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Richard Fridd on 29 October, 2023, 05:48:39 PM
I remember a pressurised Fulvia brake fluid reservoir demonstrating immediate paint stripping to a newly finished front wing a while ago.

 Richard


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 29 October, 2023, 07:38:13 PM
A ball park value for the clutch is to have one inch of free travel at the pedal. Make sure that the cable is greased.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 31 October, 2023, 06:23:49 AM
Richard - It must have been terrible to see the damage - I was then very lucky
Andrea - the clutch takes very late. I have screwed the pedal adjustment about 1/3 out and got a good couple of turns on the wingnut. Which way do I turn the wingnut to get the clutch to take earlier. (the clutch plate and thrust bearing are new)

Am I being slow or is there a trick to fitting the wheel center pieces. I pushed the inner backing plate (with O ring) into the center from behind the wheel and then bolted the chrome logo disk to the outside. I can’t get the wheel onto the hub (front or back). The center backing plate doesn't go over the wheel hub far enough to insert the bolts



Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 31 October, 2023, 07:51:37 AM
To give more free travel to the clucth pedal the wing nut on the cable should be undone. I trust you fitted the correct size clutch disc and cover.
I have not seen your wheels and I assume these are Cromodoras, however there were several reproductions of the wheel centre cup, some of them had studs too short. In this case one just pushes the cups on the wheels, they should not come loose.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 31 October, 2023, 10:53:03 AM
thanks Andrea. The wheels are the standard steel wheels


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 31 October, 2023, 11:37:06 AM
Hi Keith, for your standard steel wheels I suspect that your centre cups might not be original. I have alloy Cromodoras on all my S2 cars but, if I remember correctly, the steel wheels have a metal brace on the inside to fix the cups. But I could be wrong here without checking my spares. As I am away from home now, I fear I cannot do it immediately. Did you check your spare wheel?


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancialulu on 31 October, 2023, 04:15:19 PM
Hi Keith, for your standard steel wheels I suspect that your centre cups might not be original. I have alloy Cromodoras on all my S2 cars but, if I remember correctly, the steel wheels have a metal brace on the inside to fix the cups. But I could be wrong here without checking my spares. As I am away from home now, I fear I cannot do it immediately. Did you check your spare wheel?
Andrea you are correct steel hub caps have an inner steel cup through which the centre stud of the outer cap passes so the steel cup holds the cap in place.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 02 November, 2023, 03:02:00 PM
I’m feeling a bit sheepish about the wheel centers. I had them coated so they looked beautiful and new.
After I had persuaded them onto the hubs a couple of times with my rubber mallet, the fit improved. The O ring I used was 5mm thick and didn’t help at all. I need to try a thinner one, maybe 2mm. As you can see in the photo the centers are in place.

The clutch has now been improved. I screwed the adjustment on the pedal side of the cable almost all the way out. (extending the length). I have just over 10mm of cable exposed under the bonnet when the pedal is fully depressed. There is a drawing in the Concise Workshop Manual showing 120mm between the cable end housing and the center of the clutch arm. Now that I have that set up, I have a clutch that feels good

I don't know why some images get rotated by 90 degrees


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Simon B on 02 November, 2023, 03:44:33 PM
Had to buy a new wheel centre cap and some o rings after an emergency puncture repair en route to a ferry, flustered left the centre cap in place and the tyre fitter twisted the stud off  ??? I guess I could have done the same, anyway the replacement o rings from Omicron were 5mm dia.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 06 November, 2023, 03:17:30 PM
Simon - now that I have my 5mm O rings in the correct position, inside the chrome cup, all fits and looks great - thank you


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 06 November, 2023, 03:38:11 PM
The good news is that the car is complete. 
I took it for its first short drive yesterday. About 1 km. It is un-licensed, so I didn’t want to push my luck too far.  The engine pulled well up the hill and the brakes worked well down the hill. All very exciting.
I have my temporary permit to drive it to the testing station on Wednesday for its roadworthy test. I need Police clearance as well because I have changed the engine. I re-build the original one (the one from the factory) and have that installed. It seems as if that is just a formality.
At 6’8” tall I am able to fit into the driver’s seat. Admittedly the seat is pushed all the way back and the backrest is well reclined.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: HBG on 06 November, 2023, 05:50:59 PM
Looks great!


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: lancianut666 on 06 November, 2023, 07:58:48 PM
Nice!


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 12 November, 2023, 07:12:29 PM
My problem with the engine not firing on no.1, now seems to be resolved. It was running very rich (Thanks Andrea). Using a Colour-Tune to get a blue flame, I had to screw the Idle/pilot screw all the way in and then back out just over an 1/8th of a turn.
Is this small opening still acceptable?
My dwell angle is at just over 58deg. And the timing sits on the 8deg mark using a timing light.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 12 November, 2023, 07:23:34 PM
Police clearance and roadworthy went flawlessly. She is now street legal and ready to roll.
I have already done 200km. (taking it gently for the running in period of course).
For the first +-50km I had funny gearbox noises. It sounded as if the bearings in certain gears where running dry. After that, almost as if there were air bubbles in the gearbox oil, the noises disappeared. She now runs very quietly and is a pleasure to drive. Cant wait for the running in period to be over to see what she is capable of :) :) :) :)


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 13 November, 2023, 09:45:23 AM
Hi Keith,
Glad to know your Fulvia is now running well. The data you reported are fine and minimal adjustment of the idle screws is not unusual especially if the screw seats are worn. If possible, fit 35mm Dell'Orto carbs less prone to wear but quite expensive (make sure they are indeed 35 mm and not of other more common sizes).To ensure longevity to your engine it is advisable, at about 500 miles change oil+filter, check head bolt torque and valve clearances.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 13 November, 2023, 02:11:22 PM
Thanks Andrea. The oil change etc is on the schedule. What is the running in period - keeping the RPM below 2500 for the first 1000kms. Thereafter can one drive the car normally?
I'm not sure that the Dell Ortos are in the budget. Can one buy them new. I might have to though depending on the answer to my idling query. The idling varies between 800 and 1250 RPM normally and down to 500 when the radiator fan kicks in. Is this variation normal and expected


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 13 November, 2023, 04:49:02 PM
My own philosophy (and a very personal one) is that the first 600 miles should not see revs over 2000. Then a gradual increase in revs up to 1300 miles, after which the running in should be completed. The Lancia factory indicated 2000 km as a minimum for running in. I think that having spent a lot of time,money and energy for a full restoration it would be foolish to blow all of this away.  Cared-for Fulvia engines will readily do 300,000 miles before overhauling. The trick is frequent oil+filter changes.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 14 November, 2023, 02:16:10 PM
Andrea - noted with thanks and appreciation.

The first oil change is at 1000km (600miles) the service schedule suggests every 3500kms after that. Are you suggesting that the oil changes should be more regular
I'm surprised that the engine could do 300000 (480000km). It is a lot for a small engine. My Land Cruiser is just below 480000 and still going just as well as always ;)


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 14 November, 2023, 07:38:51 PM
Oil  changes should be done annually regardless of mileage or every 3.5 K at most (whichever comes first).The Lancia-designed engines (preFIAT) are very, very strong and everlasting when carefully maintained. Best regards.


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 15 November, 2023, 03:15:14 PM
Thanks Andrea, and everyone else, for all the advise and answers to queries I have had during the course of the rebuild - I'm not quite sure I could have done it without all of you. Thanks again


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: Keithver on 23 November, 2023, 10:08:28 AM
I am running Castrol Running-in oil for the first 1000km. Should I use running-in oil for the second 1000km as well or is normal oil fine


Title: Re: S2 fulvia assembly
Post by: nistri on 24 November, 2023, 08:24:11 AM
Standard 15-40 oil is OK