Lancia Motor Club

I cant believe it, Ferrari should have won. Poor Massa, he did everything any one person could do, real bravery from the start only to end in nothing. Bugger.
By the way what a rubbish commentary without Martin. I need a drink.

I have just watched the race and feel rather deflated.  Being a Ferrari fan I was almost crying when Massa's engine blew.  It was something of an anti-climax for Kovaleinen to inherit the win.  As somebody who dislikes McLaren with a passion, I am pleased that Hamilton also had a problem, so did not take too many points  ;D

Inasmuch as I take any interest in rather a dull form of motorsport  :P, I've little passion for Ferrari, though clearly Massa deserved the win and had rotten luck.  However, I'm British, and I am pleased that the best driver of the current crop is British and leading the Championship.  He's also had some foul luck this season, and things tend to even themselves out on that score.

If the best all round result is a British champion and an Italian winning constructor then maybe things are not so bad. It still surprised me how committed Massa was, he deserved better.

Only a few weeks ago everyone was panning Massa & now he's the best thing since sliced bread, although I like Massa & Hamilton, after years of arrogant domination by Ferrari with you know who, as much as I love Italian cars I'm pleased to see Ferrari having to work for their wins instead of just cruising away.
It was bad luck for Massa & Hamilton, but that's competitive racing for you.
If there's anyone in F1 who deserves sympathy lets give it to Button, great potential, crap car.

Brian
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Think Ferrari need to have a rethink about kimmy though, Massa & Alonso?

The drivers I would love to see in the Ferrari are Kubica and Vettel.  To me, they are the two best drivers in F1!

It sure is a tough game, cant help thinking that now the dust has settled re-last years scandel maybe McLaren are using the information to their advantage. Cute little winglets etc.

Running a serious risk of re-hashing an old debate, but "scandal" to my mind is open to interpretation....for example i heard or read that Renault got information from an employee hired from McLaren about the "J-Damper" and then made their own. If that is not a scandal, why was the Ferrari/McLaren one?
I am not a McLaren fan by the way (in fact ardent Ferrari fan apart from the M Schumacher era)

I agree, its Max'imas at its most incomprehensible.

have to say i was heartbroken for the little fella, couldn't believe after such a fantastic race, with 3 laps to go his engine let him down. I sincerely hope Ferrari pull their finger out & give him a car to take the championship

Whilst I think Massa drove a fantastic race and did deserve the win I am still a in doubt about his talent if you look at the first race of the season with NO driver aids he wasn't too hot, he is now awesome in the dry but if it gets a little tricky he doesn't deal with it too well - check out Silverstone.

Saying that I think Hamilton has been less than consistent when under pressure.

I am with Stu I think Kubica and Vettel are very good drivers who have performed well with the machinery they have. It would be interesting to see them in Ferraris

Also interesting to see Toyota start to deliver on the fact their budget is similar in magnitude to Ferrari's - amongst the largest on the grid.

As for the scandal I'd love to hear about the things that never make the press!  ;)

Having said all that I too consider it a fairly dull form of motor sport, give me a car thrashing through the forests any day.

Rhys 

I watched the Belgium race in a poky hotel room in Copenhagen and thought the result a fair outcome considering, ie Hamilton deserved the win. Imagine my surprise this morning to learn of the 25 second penalty and his relegation to third. I make no bones about it, I want Massa to be Champion but this is so unfair. Its beyond me. As Lauda says,"The worst decision ever made". Racing drivers should be allowed to race. LEAVE THEM ALONE.   

What a way to lose a race you won fairly & with such skill and bravery, seems the Stewards won't explain the reasons for their decision, nothing I've read in the papers today supports the stewards decision.  It certainly hasn't done anything to redeem the FIA's lousy reputation.

The only reason Hamilton had to cut the corner was that Kimi shut the door and there was nowhere else to go, it was the only option other than taking both cars out, even then Hamilton let the Ferrari back in front.

Certainly seems that the FIA have got it in for McLaren or Hamilton, or both, a biased decision, particularily after Valencia where Ferrari got a piffling fine after releasing Massa when they shouldn't have done so, when it really justified an on track penalty.

Brian
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and why should Massa have been hit with a track penalty after Valencia?? Massa was released too soon by his put crew, & Ferrari got fined because of that, imposing a penalty on Massa would have been quite unfair. Its not Massa's job to second guess his crew, as soon as they release him (& every other driver) then he puts his foot down.

What happened to Hamilton is a result of the ruling that he should not have gained an advantage after cutting the corner (how ever it happened), he clearly did, although he gave back the place promptly, the advantage gained was a superior straight line speed out of the corner because he didn't take the corner correctly & with less than five laps to go the stewards had no choice but to impose a time penalty

Currently I am a McLaren supporter (I work for the major sponsor) that aside I really think this year is turning into a true battle between 2 great future champion drivers, Massa and Hamilton and I will be pleased if either win the championship fairly - but if the FIA keep on with their anti McLaren bent, it will really spoil a great year.
Yes Lewis did have an advantage from straight lining the corner but he corrected it by backing off and letting the Ferrari past - job done! Anything after that, he should not have been penalised for because he just out drove the Fin, very unfair.
Hopefully Lewis will rise above this and prove to the FIA that he is the best man in the best car this year.
Happy day,
Chris

Interesting comments, maybe F1 is passed its sell by date, after all, who can justify wasting eighty litres of fuel every twenty laps or so for no apparent reason. Unless it rains.

You obviously know the rules better than I do, but Ron Dennis said immediately afterwards in an interview that they had asked for an opinion of Charlie Whiting who it appears seemed to think the manouver wasn't a problem, as the place was given back, however it seems from the report in mondays Daily Mail that it was Whiting  who would have asked the stewards to investigate, as they act solely on his reports, it also asks the question why he didn't report  Raikkonon for overtaking just as a yellow flag was being first waved?

I would suggest it's worth reading the report by The Mails Motor Racing Correspondent, Johnathon McEvoy.

Brian
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ah i love the press, a more biased opinion you couldn't get, don't they know Bennetton & Ferrari were different teams?? A bit of research me thinks! ;D

I only offer the following as an observation from a friend in the USA.

 toby2449 said of Hamilton “although he gave back the place promptly, the advantage gained was a superior straight line speed out of the corner because he didn't take the corner correctly”. Interestingly, this is the same argument I’m seeing in the other forums.

 

But my question would be this: How could Hamilton have “superior straight line speed” and still give back the place to Kimi? In other words, how could he have “superior straight line speed out of the corner” at the same time that he let Kimi pass him? Are the laws of physics different there? Is it actually possible to be going faster than another car while that same car is passing you??? ???

Brian
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The same thought occured to me, and as I said before, although a Massa fan I think the whole think stinks. Thank goodness I can still remember meeting Jim Clark. Another time, another place.

Brian

I'm sure yuo know this - but i think the logic above re straight line speed is more to do with the fact that he didn't back all the way off at the chicane to go round it properly - so he gained an advantage in his own speed rather than the relative value to the Ferrari.

Still think the decision stinks though.....

Duncan

exactly right there duncan.

But it may seem like a harsh penalty, however its the only penalty the stewards could impose, & they HAD to impose a penalty, sends out all the wrong signals if drivers are allowed away with gaining an advantage from cutting a chicane (for whatever reason)

I think that the decision was correct., but I think that Hamilton will cock it up this weekend, his lack of experience will show through again..........I'm just off to get my hard hat! ;D 

have to admit, i think Ferrari will get hammered this weekend, both Kimi & Massa have engines that already had to cope with Spa, & Ferrari were very poor on home soil last year, plus testing showed Mclaren to be very strong, & thats not even taking into consideration that it might rain.

By the way, i say this as a huge Ferrari fan (not matter who's driving for them) have been since the bad old days of the early 1990's, so its not easy for me to think the above!

Having read this weeks Autosport, there is a small panel explaining the view of the stewards.  This that while Hamilton backed off and let Kimi pass, he would not have been as close to Kimi to get by at La Source had he taken the chicane properly.  Also, when he let Kimi retake the lead, he ducked straight back into his slipstream, therefore making the overtake easier.  Had Hamilton taken the chicane, then he would have still been in the dirty air off the Ferrari, and so would not have been in a position to overtake where he did.  Also stated is the fact that Charlie Whiting, on review of the race, concluded that an offence had occurred.  The result was the penalty given.

This precident had been set at Suzuka in 2005 when Alonso jumped a chicane (passing Christian Klien).  He backed off momentarily before passing Klien again.  He was then told to let Klien pass again so as to avoid a penalty.

As a lifelong Ferrari fan (who dislikes McLaren with a passion!) I hope the penalty stands and is not overturned in the court of appeal.

And Kimi no doubt would still have stuffed it into the barrier ;D, all other comments aside, the best driver on the day, in the prevailing appalling rainy conditions with dry tyres didn't win >:(   

I love Italy,Italian cars, and most things Italian, but I'm no lover of Ferrari mainly due to the antics they get up to when things don't go their way.
Admittedly no longer as bad as it used to be with a certain MS in the driving seat.

Brian
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Passion. Nobody does it better than Ferrari.

This is why I am a Ferrari fan.  To me, McLaren is nothing more than a soulless corporate company with no passion whatsoever!

We are all going to be Ferrari fans, it goes without saying  ;) All the teams are corporate company's but I wouldn't say that they are soulless at all. Its still all about money, the plug could be pulled at any time for the teams (contracts withstanding!) All, the people who work for the teams have a passion for their sport and all want to succeed, but at the same time need to make at least some money, that's the nature of life I'm afraid  :'(

Nope - no feeling for them whatsoever.  Don't like the racing team, don't like the road cars.  I'm sorry if that is near heretical on here...!  The only F1 team I've ever felt inclined to support was Renault, in my youth, in the days of Arnoux and Jabouille (no interest now).  Any interest at all that I have (and its not much compared to my passion for Walsall FC) is confined to support for particular drivers.

wot don't like ANY of the road cars  ???

Back to the subject in hand. Yesterday at Monza Massa played a cool qualifying in the driving rain and starts near the front while Lewis has a real job on his hands starting out of sight somewhere at the back. Will it rain? Will the full wets (or lack of them) play a part? Its going to be a good race so Im not going to Auto-Italia, instead will be watching the 1,000kms Silverstone and F1 race courtesy of the Gales with Steve while the three fair ladies rustle up some Sunday lunch. How bad is that!

Genuinely - given the list of cars you have in your fleet, stick any of them next to any Ferrari you care to choose, and I'd be more interested in your Sud, or 3P or Fulvia...

Point taken  ;D (EX fleet}

Well, it did rain and in the end nothing much has changed with just one point between Massa and Hamilton. Now comes the first ever night race in Singapore. Cant wait to see F1 cars sporting a bank of high powered spotlamps!

Sorry Peter but that sounds like a Ferrari supporter being a bit churlish, no doubt about it in qualifying yesterday, Mc Laren, Hamilton & his race engineer got it wrong and he went out too late & on the wrong tyres; but in the race itself, Lewis came from 15th on the grid to finish 7th, Kimi came from 14th on the grid to 9th, and much as I like Massa he finished in the same position as he started, Hamilton had everything to lose and drove a fantastic race to still finish 1 point in front of Massa, and if it had rained as forecast, and he hadn't had to come in for tyres he may well have been in front of Massa, but that's F1 for you.
But man of the race was Sebastian Vethel, what a drive, & with a Ferrari engine ;D

Singapore certainly sounds like fun, I wonder how they are going to manage that!

Like Ian, I'm not a great lover of modern Ferrari Road cars, the older cars, Yes, but I think there are nicer cars out there rather than the modern Ferrari Posing machines, technically brilliant though they may be.

 And while I'm at it, although I like the styling of Lamborghini's how many get driven any distance on the public highway? everything you see up for sale has low mileage, so I can't see the point of owning them other than for show. I hate to see them turn up to meetings on trailers, and then get driven a mile or two to the events as I've seen happen at Brooklands for Autoitalia.
At least the Maserati's are good looking AND get driven.

Brian
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Sorry chaps, I love all things Lancia with a passion and some things Italian but I'm old and fiercly patriotioc (not so popular these days) and want to see Hamilton win the championship.

I'm with Brian on modern Ferrari road cars the pre 1980 models are much more my cup of tea.

Oh, and that's speaking from experience. Check this auction entry out, http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/30077/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=202 Owned one for 5 years in the early eighties and if I had to settle for just one of all the cars I've owned it would be a close run thing between it and Modestine. Nothing quite like a 250 V12 - tearing calico best describes it.

Robin.
 

Very nice Robin. Sure it's not a badge engineered Flavia ;) ;)

I'm just about to turn 42, so I don't know whether that makes me young or old (I guess it depends from which end of the telescope you are viewing :-\) but on all things sport, at least, I am also instinctively patriotic, and I'd like Hamilton to win too.  Given his performances in the rain, I also think he is the best driver in the field, notwithstanding he has a decent (if arguably not the best) car.

Happy birthday Chris, just in case I miss it. And remember, it doesnt matter how many candles are on the cake as long as your mental age stays the same. Me? Im still nineteen.

... and I'm only 17 - due to my birthday being on the 29th of February!

 Dilambdaman, the 250 GTE is a truly elegant car, yet I was wrong about Hamilton, just as well I'm not a betting man ....(or boy 'cus I still feel sixteen  ;D)

It was only a matter of time.....................

EBay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/L-K-Slightly-worn-Shell-Petroleum-hose-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ140272461882QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140272461882&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

and

http://scouseknight.com/f1player.aspx

 ;D ;D ;D

Perhaps there should be some kind of interlock to stop the car moving until the fuel hose is completely released, F1 has been very lucky so far that the incidents of going off with the fuel pipe still attached, have turned into a major fire or a disaster.

What's the betting that Ferrari throw away the traffic lights and go back to the lollipop :-[
Brian
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Funny you should say that Brian.  I read today on teletext that Ferrari are abandoning the pit lights and are reverting to the traditional lollipop for the race this weekend!

An oracle is never revered in his own country (or something like that) ;D

Brian
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So Hamilton cocked up again....there's a surprise!

And the Ferrari Factor seems to be at work again, Massa causes the incident with Bourdais, but Bourdais gets the penalty :o and lo and behold Massa moves up a place and takes another point out of Hamiltons lead, anyone care to explain that one ???

Brian
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And Massa's misdemeanour with Hamilton seems somewhat more severe, and more significant to the result of the race, than does Hamilton's earlier, yet the penalty is the same.  One rule for Ferrari, one for Maclaren, again.

Yep, and Ferrari and Massa respond in their usual absolutely classless manner. I'm not even a McClaren or Lewis fan (and he made a complete cods of the start) but between them Ferrari and the FIA manage to insult everyones intelligence ever more regularly.

I do not agree that there is a Ferrari factor.  In the incident with Bourdais, Massa had got ahead going around the outside.  This was quite visible on the TV in that the nose of his car was ahead that of the Toro Rosso.  When the stewards investigate these situations, they get to see the incident from more angles than we do.  They also get access to the data from the cars.  Taking all this into account, it was decided that Bourdais could have done more to prevent the incident.  Also, from what I saw on the TV coverage, it appeared to me that Massa attempted to back out of going around the outside.  If there was a Ferrari factor, then he would not have been given a drive through for either the incident in Singapore or for his little midemeanour with Hamilton.

On a more positive note, Alonso has gone up in my estimations.  He has said that he will do everything he can to help Massa win the title.  :)

but Massa shouldn't need any help, just as Hamilton shouldn't. We all know it happens but the 'Gentleman ship' in the sport has sometimes, been somewhat lost

I do not think the incident between Massa and Hamilton did not wreck Hamiltons race as much as you suggest.  Hamilton flat spotted his tyres so badly, he would have had to stop for tyres when he did anyway.  In addition to that, he would have still received the penalty for his rookie mistake into the first corner.  I would suggest that he would still have finished no better than 10th and out of the points.

Massa's penatly was for cutting the corner, in the same way Hamilton did in Spa.  Same offence, same penalty.

But we all know why Alonso will help Massa!

Massa is getting a lot of help from Michael Schumacer and by all accounts they are close & he's giving Massa a lot of help; seems like he's given him a copy of the Schumacer book of dirty tricks, and Massa obviously opened it at the page which said, if you don't like having your rival in front, punt him off >:(

Brian
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I have just returned last night from Maranello and the first public view outside the Paris Motor Show of the new California. Every radio station in Italy was discussing the F1 race and poor old Massa got a fair amount of stick. The race itself was full of incident that needed no interference from the FIA stewards, let them fight it out between them I say, they are all grown up and are quite capable of defending themselves. Except Coultard! Lets enjoy some real motor racing, goodness knows, we have waited long enough.     

Have a look at www.formula1.com.  They have footage of all three incidents from different camera angles.  It is quite clear that Massa hitting Hamilton was NOT a deliberate move.  Massa had the nose of his car ahead of Hamiltons rear wheels when Hamilton turned in.  Hamilton should have been aware of this and given him more room.

In the Bourdais incident, Massa was clearly ahead while going around the outside, and it was Bourdais who hit Massa.  From the footage, I say that the stewards reached the correct decision in each case.

Sorry stu,
But this sounds like it came straight from Ferrari!
Hamilton should have given Massa more room, like Kimi did to Lewis? Ferrari drivers can't have it both ways, Massa was off the line and on the gravel.

So Bourdais who was going considerably slower than Massa who was coming from behind with all the vision, was to blame for hitting Massa! :D :o

After looking at the F1 video,
Incident 1,
Hamilton over cooked the first corner but I think if it had been anyone else it is unlikely they would have been penalised, Ok, cars were going all ways but there was no major accident or damage, we've certainly seen worse in other F1 races.

Iincident 2, I still think it was Massa's fault, if you look at the event from the camera in the McLaren that is behind Lewis's head, at no time do you see the Ferrari, and even if he had, Hamilton still had the line until Massa punted him out of the way.

Incident 3,
As for the incident with Bourdais, it's obvious from the Video that there was no way Massa was going to get around Bourdais on the line he was taking, and he must have been aware of that, he took a chance and it didn't come off, I should think highly unlikely that Bourdais even saw him coming, what with Massa's speed and angle.

Brian
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Suggestion - let's get this thread renamed to Poor Hamilton.  ;D

Well folks, its China at seven in the morning and Hamilton is on pole. But he must be worried to have Ferrari all around. Will it rain. Probably. Will the rain be heavy enough to interfere with the natural race flow. Possibly. Will Renault play a part. Who else is going to wake up early to watch the race live? It could be worth it whoever you want to win. 

Should be worth watching, just hope that little bitter & twisted Spanish gnome doesn't try to interfere, Renault are all at it, with Flavio trying to physce Hamilton out.

Lets see a fair straight fight & may the best man win.

Race start time is 8am so I should be able to get an extra half an hour in bed ;D
Brian
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Well, that was a bit of a demonstration from McClaren wasn't it. At least Phil had the good grace to look embarrased when the interviewer said "that looked a close race between you and Kimi in the closing laps"   ;D.

I hope that fat orange pensioner Briatore feels suitable contrite after his comments over the weekend.

Very smooth race by Hamilton. Ferrari off the pace. No rain so no excitement. Bored too death so going for a blast in the integrale.

What a great driver and all round nice guy Massa is, under all that pressure he led from start to finish while Hamilton was at all times at the mercy of those around him. On the podium Massa controlled his emotions and I realised yet again why I like all things Italian. Well done to Lewis but at the same time my heart goes out to Massa.

Superb race, but how can the championship come down to the final corner of the last race…????????????

Hamilton absolutely deserved the Championship, but hearts go out to Massa for a final effort, maybe next year!

FF

Yes,
 superb win, but my wife said "OMG don't tell me we've got another Tim Henman, I couldn't stand that" ;D

Really felt sorry for Massa especially as his team counted the chickens a bit early.
I should think Sebastian Vettel earned a few brownie points for his team from Ferrari, they certainly seem to be making the best out of the Ferrari engine.

Brian
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