Lancia Motor Club

Hi all.
I'm having a few problems with a Fulvia, and could do with some collective input.

The car has been stood for a couple of years, was running fine. It's a series 1 HF with 45 Webers - it was completely rebuilt by Vere in Holland prior to storage. It has a standard dizzy, had new plugs and leads when it was being worked on. Not sure about the age of the condensor, coil, rotor arm and cap. The cams are the modern version of the V1016.

What I'm getting, is normal performance for the most part (a bit of a flat spot on the transition from slow running to wide open throttle), but if I go up a decent hill and floor it for more than 10 o 15 seconds, it seems to have misfiring symptoms - and I get pinking, and it loses nearly all power with associated exhaust popping etc. It recovers without completely stopping after 5 seconds or so if I back off, and is ok again.

I've cleaned the carbs out - found some fine silt in the glass bowl of the regulator. I've changed the fuel pump over (Facet red top) because the old one didn't seem to be creating any measurable pressure - I have 3psi now. I've checked the float levels (brass floats in these ones), blown through the fuel line - which all seemed fine. The needles are Viton tipped - and there's no fuel leaking into the venturis - balanced with a flow meter and are all good. I've also cured leaks that I found in the individual carb mounts. But - it seems like a timing issue to me, so before I just change things and hope for the best, I was wondering if anyone has experienced anything like this - and managed to cure it.

Thanks,
Justin.

change the plugs.

  Is the 3psi fuel pressure being measured at the carburettor?

  Richard

Ignition timing is not right. Check also the valve timing.

Thats my thinking although replacing the condenser would be my first move.

I run 45 Dellortos on my 1600 and smooth all the way up - same engine spec as your Jus

 Can timing become "OK again " but become problematic after 10 to 15 seconds giving normal performance for the most part?

  Richard

If the condenser would be faulty, it would be difficult to start the car. When making changes to the engine (different cams, differnt carbs etc), it might be difficult  to set up properly the engine to run smoothly. For instance and I am NOT saying this is the root of the problem, the centrifugal advance of the distributor may be unable to cope with the engine changes. However, the exhaust is popping it is a sign of bad timing.

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

The 3psi is measured at the carbs - and there's no fuel return line on this one. It does have a fuel tap in the cabin between the seats, with the two positions marked with an 'N' and an 'R'. Normal and reserve? The inline filter always seems to be empty as well. I've read that this is ok / expected - but I think I might replace it with a non-return valve as there's another filter in the FISPA unit later in the line. If I disconnect the carb input, and pull fuel right through to fill up this filter, it quickly returns to the dry state when the car is started. It's a bit surprising to me - but might be normal - I don't know. Where does this air come from in a sealed fuel line?

The guys at the garage couldn't get the car to start initially (immediately after its two years of storage) - until they had a fiddle with this fuel tap - which they said was stuck. I'd assumed that it had just been left in the same position as it always had been in where it ran fine - and freeing it up to get it going may have been a coincidence. I wasn't there when this happened, so I don't know exactly.

It starts up well enough now though - within half a second of the key being pushed in. It revs fine without any popping under no load.

I've concentrated on the fuel side of things up to this point, because it feels a bit like fuel starvation - in that it drives fine unless you really push it for more than ~10 seconds. If you push it for less time, or don't floor it at all, then you wouldn't really know that there was a problem.

When it does happen, it doesn't 100% feel like lack of fuel, it feels more like the timing's wrong mixed with lack of fuel. I can definitely hear pinking when it happens. Whatever it is, it seems to be dependent on not just high rpm, but the duration of the high rpm. There could be two separate things of course, one triggering the other.
 
I can change the plugs, coil, leads and I could even change the dizzy for the 123 that's in my other Fulvia - just to see. Obviously, one component at a time though.

Thanks for reading - and any comments are always much appreciated.

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The car has stood two years?
How old is the fuel in the tank?
Was it stored with the tank full, or else?

I would also try another (good) condenser.

I would remove that inline filter before the pump it is probably restricting the fuel feed, the pump should have its own integral inlet filter.

Sean

You mention pinking at high revs. This is not normal. Pinking normally occurs under load say in 3rd or 4th at around 2500-3500 rpm and is a tinkling kinda sound.

Now I have read your latest post I would be thinking fuelling as well. Bypass this mystery tap. What is the fuel tank? Standard 60 years old or what?

Hi Sean.
Yes - that filter is coming out and you're right - there's a filter in the Facet pump, one in the Fispa unit and also one in each carb inlet, so I can safely remove the plastic one.

Sebastien:
The fuel was old, but most of it was used on the drive back, and I've since put plenty of fresh E5 in. The issues have remained throughout, but I've cured the initial air leaks in the carb mounts that were affecting the idle, I've cleaned the carbs, balanced them and checked / set the floats.

Tim:
The tank is mounted inside the boot and has the large filler in the top of the back wing - as used on the works cars (this one is a works car). I can actually see straight into the tank through the filler and it all looks clean and sludge free. The Vere Lancia guys had the tank off, repaired and refitted it when they renovated it a couple of years ago. I did find that the breather was plugged, so I've removed the bung, but that didn't affect anything.

The pinking happens only when it's having its funny turn (which is when I'm going up a long, steep hill), so the revs are dropping by this stage as the problem causes a loss of power. It doesn't pink immediately before the issue - when it was also going up the same steep hill - just once it starts to have its problem.

I'll see if Omicron have the condensor in stock - but if not, is there a readily available alternative that anyone knows of for the 139a distributor?

Thanks all.
Justin.

Sorry, forgot: it could also be the coil going bad, and overheating.
If you ask Omicron, you could as well get the condenser and a new coil!
Try one after the other.

(Over the years, on different cars, I have had 4 coils going bad, the last one last year.)

If the picture in #7 of the fuel cock is correct then IMO it is selected somewhere between Normal and Reserve which would restrict fuel flow. This would manifest itself when going up hill when fuel flow is needed to be very high.
Problems like this usually are simple to fix but difficult to pin down. This weird fuel cock is not standard so I would look at this first

Yes - it does look like it's in between positions, but there's a stop in rotation each way, and it is actually up against one end. It freely rotates between the two end stops, but the two positions don't really tie up well with the labels. I'll try and get a Y piece sorted, which will just connect all the lines together - and take it out of the equation.
Thanks,
Justin.

Before you do that just move the axis of the cock about 15 degrees so it lines up with one of the inlet pipes, preferably the normal one and see if that fixes it

looking again at the pic, a turn of about 30 degrees needed

I'll give it a go. I can blow it through while turning to see if there are any restrictions around the travel.
I'll post the results.

How is the fuel quality in UK?
In Sweden the quality have quite constantly droped. Recently the energy level have dropped a bit.
I compensated by going for larger nozzles during my last carb rebouild. It runs very good now, unfurtunately I can not compare with the original jetting on rebuilt carbs (as the Solex 42s are a pain to re-jet so rebuild and re-jetting was done at the same time).
In the future my plan is to fit a lambda sond to get readings of different driving situations.

I do not think we have a significant quality issue here in the UK, the only problem is the Ethanol content. Most people use Esso E5 which is 99 octane and supposidly is infact E0.  I run my 1.3S on this petrol and am very happy. Infact I get about 35-37 mpg on a good run but that drops to 32-34 if I cannot find the Esso pertrol so it must be good. Interesting to hear other people's comments.

I understand Esso E5 is no longer  ethanol free, so much the same as other brands.
Brian
8227  8)

 
  Hi Justin, the symptoms you describe, ie, running at full throttle/Full load  for a period of time and then losing power is almost definitely fuel starvation. The fuel mixture is becoming so lean after a few seconds that the combustion chamber temperatures will become so high that hot spots form inside the chamber, carbon deposits etc, specifically on the piston crown and cause pre-ignition/ detonation that sounds like the "pinking" you would get with advanced ignition timing. If the carbs have stood for 2 years with old fuel in, it will be difficult to clear any solidified ethanol deposits from the tiny fuel passages. I would suggest removing all the jets and squirt though each passage in turn with carb cleaner with a tube on that you can get into the orifices properly, particularly the main jet orifices. It might be a good idea to carry out a plug chop immediately after the symptoms occur and see if the plug colour is very grey/white or if the electrodes are turning blue due to over heating. obviously check your fuel filter hoses are connected to the correct unions ( not teaching grandmother to suck eggs)

Good Luck.

Thanks John - that all makes sense. I'll persevere with the carb cleaning and fuel line checks.
Cheers - Justin.

It may be worth investing £100 in a mid sized ultrasonic cleaner. Thats what I did a couple of years ago. I stripped the carbs (solexes) and cleaned the jets and bodies in the cleaner for about 20 minutes. That way any build up deep in the recesses are removed. The performance of the carbs and the car was transformed. The idle mixture screws work properly and the carbs balance and stay balanced. A sure fire way to improve the performance of your car.

What solution and dilution rate did you use?

I used a commercialy available fluid called Ultrasonic pro and the instructions say one can use up to 1:10  I use dionised water at a ratio of somewhere between 1:10 and 1:20, I cannot be bothered to acuratly measure. I am sure 1:20 is fine as it is the ultrasonic vibrations that do the job for you. If you are going to buy one make sure it is big enough to hold the carb body and preferably with a basket. I made a mistake and mine is a bit too small so I had to do the carb body in two goes, first upright and then upside down. If in doubt buy one too big. Its a good investement.

how far do you go in stripping them down? Assume all gaskets and jets, but do you take out the shafts?

I stripped the carbs down removing all gaskets and o rings etc but I left the butterflies and shafts in place as there seemed to be virtually no play. The bodies were then cleaned and then all the jets and mixture screws. I think it is the ability of the ultra sonic cleaner to get rid of dirt etc in hidden passage ways that makes the difference. It's not complicated, the most difficult part is getting the carbs off the car! MIne's a S1 Sport with side opening bonnet so not a lot of room.

U/s cleaning of carbs with shaft bearings (cf Solex PHHE3, Dellorto, Weber) ruins the bearings...

Also beware of losing various little brass plugs Solex put in curious places and go un noticed till the carb fails to perform...

Well,my carbs are working fine after 8,000 miles. I don't quite understand why cleaning the spindles in situ can ruin them. My understanding is that on the solex carb there are no bearings on the shafts just a brass spindle in the body of the carb but I am happy to be told otherwise if indeed they were built with bearings,

I said Solex PHH E3 etc which have ball race bearings. Those are the one that get damaged. Other PHH Solex have steel shafts which either run in the Mazak body or in brass bushes.

Just a note of caution from a friend (not LMC member):
"You should be aware that overuse of ultrasonic cleaners can result in loosening prong set diamonds, and carburetor plugs, among other things. I’m not sure if a DCOE has any, like the DCZ/L does, but I’ve been warned, by I don’t remember who, perhaps Pierce Manifolds. The force of the bubbles seems to be stronger than one would think, but that’s physics for you/me."

An update on this issue - which I think is now fixed.
The voltage at the pump was only around 9.5V. I traced the fuse on the feed and gave it and the holder a clean, and the voltage then went up to around 11.5V. The difference in the pump performance was dramatic (and obviously non-linear with input voltage). At 9.5V, if the hose was held horizontally, the fuel would just trickle and fall out of the end, but after the increase in voltage, fuel would then project out 4" or so before falling under gravity.

There was no obvious change in speed or tone, so a voltmeter was definitely needed in this case to confirm the low voltage.

I had checked two pumps in isolation - just pumping from, and back to a fuel can with nothing else in the line - powered from a bench power supply that could give 4A at 12V. Both pumps gave the same trickling result - so I'd assumed that these pumps just gave a slow rate, but had decent pressure (like a coffee machine pump). They both drew around 1.25A (+/-10%). I'm not sure why I didn't get the faster flow during the test, but the misleading result delayed the eventual fix. If I'd have run straight from the battery, then it would have been obvious much earlier on in the process.

The fuel filter that was dry, is now full of fuel and the car seemed to run much better during an initial test.

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

Justin.

Congratulations on finding the culprit - not easy, but you did it!

You must be relieved - enjoy the car now!

I have just U/s cleaned a PHHE3 and it lost 4 little brass plugs. I thought only 3 as I found 3. Then another orifice presented itself.... No idea where the fourth one went. Luckliy you can remake out of brass shaft (shank of brass screw).