Lancia Motor Club

Looking back at my other threads it was Feb when I split the gearbox and head from this engine.  Over the summer, and in particular with the Aurelia spares hoard all sold now, I've managed to make some bench space so the story continues.

Sump came off with no protest as did the main bearing caps and they look tidy.  No metal in the oil.  Underside of pistons quite clean.  The crank didn't look pretty but its sludge not deep pitting or score marks.  I'm really optimistic at the moment - the seizure seems be everything a little bit stuck rather than a major failure somewhere in particular.  Fingers crossed this lump is just a strip, clean, and reassemble. 

Am struggling with the split pins in the big end bolts as all are tight and two are shrouded by the crank which as yet won't turn.  Its likely to be a dremel job with a little dental type cutter to remove the split pins.  The nuts will be replaced so if need be I can cut them with a little disk or a chisel but I'd rather not damage the bolts and certainly not the rods so the first plan is to carve the split pins out.

The timing chain split easily but is jammed against the oil pump / distributer drive.  My assumption is that the big screw under the fuel pump mounting secures the drive shaft.  Anyone got any hints and tips for that one?

Am having fun - more fun than watching Desperate Housewife or Ugly Betty or whatever the TV schedule is filling up with now.

David

I think this mystery screw is simply a stud for the fuel pump mounting arm.The 3 point attachment is with one stud and two loose bolts that fit the other two holes.I don't think it serves another purpose.?

Not the stud on the mounting flange but between that stud and the "fuel pump actuator rod" is a cheese head screw lurking in the easing oil and gunge.

David

No idea (and not shown in the exploded view in the parts book...) Mayby it is holding  the flange in place within which the actuator rod fits? I don't remember seeing a screw in this position on my car.

Any chance of getting a nut splitter onto the nuts? at least that way there should be no chance of damaging the bolts.

Brian
8227 8)

Alas no space for a pukka nut splitter.  Am pretty sure I'll be able to "surgically" remove the split pins, and if not slice the nuts with a minature cutting disk.  It will take an enormous amount of time, but with the radio on and with Mrs L glued to Ugly Betty etc on the TV who cares...

Am looking forward to getting the ultrasonic cleaning tank out again - it seemed a lot of money at the time but when processing a garage full of bits and bobs it saved days of time.

David

Patience & Saint spring to mind ;D

Brian
8227 8)

No idea what this screw is but the shaft is retained by the gear which you have already removed and taps out from the bottom upwards.  Apply lots of easing oil and, if necessary, warm the entire engine in an oven or a large tub of boiling water to 100 degrees to give the necessary clearance.

The drive gear is still in place.  The reason the chain is still on is that the gear traps it.  See photo - NB the crank is nothing like as bad as it looks, the brown is sludge.

I can see a pin that I'd assumed locates that gear but at the angle it's on the access isn't really there to remove it.  The plan for that gear is to wait until the crank is out.  There's a temptation to leave it in place even then but I'm determined to get everything really clean.

David

Take great care with that small gear David: they're like glass!  They are held onto the distributor/oil pump drive spindle with a taper pin which (obviously) comes out one way only!  If you tap it the wrong way it expands and breaks the gear.  (I haven't done this myself yet - but I have come across several where other owners have broken them!). 

Generally, the engine you have looks to be excellent by the way. 

Morris. 

Thankyou for the tip...  I'm all the more glad I chose to wait until the crank is out.

Some progress today.  Managed to grind out three of the split pins and remove one big end.  White metal has a grey streak down the middle which I assume is embedded debris but it looks sound as does the crank pin.  The bolts came out easily, the piston moved up a little, and the little end is tight but moves.

David

You might get away with the bearings in which case good luck.  My old Engineer told me a good wheeze the other day.  The pages of the Whitehaven News - and, he imagines, other newspapers, are two thou thick so, if you put in a little slip of paper each side and the bearing goes tight, you have ideal clearance.  Plastigauge is hopelessly inaccurate.  If the white metal is too worn then I would strongly suggest that you consult Reg Dormer or his son John at Serdi UK 01895 232215 about conversion to modern shells.  It should be possible to make new bearing carriers (as he did with my Lambda engine)  and the result would be a bottom end that would last at least 100,000 miles rather than the 30,000 or so you can expect from white metal.  You would need to check that the weight of the rod/bearing assembly is not significantly altered or you will need to consult also with Vibration Free (see my post on Aprilia Engine Balance)

and fit a modern cartridge oil filter whilst at it..

David,

Have you thought about dismantling it one stage further – like separating out all the dark matter and extracting the Higgs bosons, if you can find them? I hear they have a machine near Geneva that you might be able to borrow.

Looks good though,

Colin

I'm working on the same principle as CERN - trying to turn energy into matter, and the bigger and more rare the particle the better.  That's the long term goal, for now its stripping electrons etc.

Some more progress this last day or so:  all the big ends are off and look to be in good condition,  all the pistons slide in their bores,  crank is loose and the oil pump / distributer drive shaft will turn.  Getting that shaft free was harder than anything else so far but it responded to the soak, wiggle, soak routine in the end.

Alas the crank isn't out as the drive gear for that shaft is below the crank centre line, the shaft is inclined, hence it pinches the crank.  I can't access the taper pin to remove the gear as the crank and rods tangle and the bores are a bit too dirty at the moment to slide the pistons all the way up let alone out.

I've put the main bearing shells back on, the sump back on, and am now cleaning the tops of the bores ready to extract the pistons.  With pistons and rods out I can then turn the crank and distributer drive shaft and work out which end of the taper pin to hit to remove that gear, drop the crank, and remove that drive shaft. 

At the moment fingers crossed for good rings on the pistons...

David

Speaking of matter, I think that my grey matter is also fast disappearing down a black hole near Geneva! 

It is about 12 months since I rebuilt an Aprilia engine and I should be able to remember - but I can't - however, I'm pretty sure that if you remove the starting handle dog, pulley, oil slinger and timing sprocket, then the drive gear will slide off the crank and disengage with the distributor shaft, leaving sufficient room to extract the crank.  I think.  Well, it has been a year and I'm getting to be too old for all this remembering stuff.  Have to write everything down these days.  I can remember when..............erm..............no I can't, come to think of it!

Morris. 

From looking at it I believe that would give clearance.  If desperate maybe taking the upper bearing shell out would do it?   Either way the pistons need to come out at some point and this is turning out to be the point to do it...

Thinking of CERN - at least I've DISproved the Big Bang theory for this engine.  Everything a bit siezed rather than "a failure".

David

Morris,

More likely to be that your brain is clogged up with trying to solve Dilambda woes at the moment!  ::)

Robin.

I had new rings made for my pistons by a little old man in Maryport on the Cumbrian coast.  Cost £100 including some spare to allow for breakages.   Google Clupet Piston Rings - not only will you find the Clupet Piston Ring and Gauge Company but all sorts of fascinating side issues about the Clupet ring (big in steam engines).  Great stuff and very nice piston rings as well.  You may well, of course,be able to buy standard rings off the shelf.   My advice would be to hone the bores anyway and fit new rings after taking so much trouble to strip the engine...
David

No real time on it the last few weeks - but here's a couple of snaps from when I was.   The first bur went through the split pin like a knife through butter, but went blunt the first time it touched the bolt.  Turning the speed right down and the cut was almost as quick and the (next) bur didn't overheat and finished the job.  Probably only fifteen mins to do the lot.  That Proxon rotary handpiece is one of those tools that stays in the draw so long you almost forget its there and then every now and then really earns its keep.

I then used a little brass brush in it to decoke the bore tops.  The result is a jumper with little brass bristles that I still keep finding (still keep stabbing me) two or three washes on.  I think it will be a "proper" brass brush in a cordless drill to finish that job...  The little brush lasted half a bore.  Maybe its only supposed to be for sweeping dolls house chimneys.

No photo of the bore tops - but it was interesting to see the bore ridge had a top and a bottom.  The bottom edge is the usual wear from piston rings.  The top edge is because the bore was rough machined as far down as the wedge section - I can see little grooves from the tool - and this was larger than the fine machined/honed bore proper.  Yet to clean the piston tops to see if its an oversize.

David

It sounds as if your bores are not up to much and I would say from the appearance of the big end in your picture that that is knacked as well.Looks like a job for Serdi!!   See my posts.  It ain't cheap but is worth it in the end because my engine is now running beautifully and, with modern oils, should last at least 100,000 miles.

There's an intellectual appeal to "strip, clean, reassemble" and bringing a seized engine back from the dead - aside from not spending the money or waiting on others.  At the moment its hobby time, a distraction, fun.  Throwing money at experts (at this point in the project as a whole) is about as sensible as paying someone else to drink down the pub in my place.   All I want from THIS engine is "a runner".  I can put up with low compression, low oil pressure, some smoke, down on power. 

If I've got a running engine sitting on a stand, pumping water through its rad, charging its battery, ticking over sweetly its a good step towards a living breathing car just itching to go out on the roads or sprint up a hill - its great motivation to push on with the rest of it.  WHEN the rest of the car is finished, IF at that point the biggest problem I have is that the engine is bit knackered THEN it might come to bits again and get done "properly".

At that point it will be an "urgent" job and it won't sit in the back of everyone's works getting forgotten or having a few hours thrown its way as a time filler.  If the work is expensive, if its the difference between a "run round the block" car and something that could really be used and I've got planned use for it then selling another car to fund the engine would seem a reasonable thing to do. 

My "other" Aprilia engine, at the time destined for an Austin 7 chassis, started at Baldynes who made no progress to speak of and then to BWE who then sent some to Serdi and some to Gosnay's and some to Jim Stokes and got some pistons made by some place in the states and - at the end of the day - at the end of five years plus - I still wasn't convinced many of the mods were actually all that sensible and I'm not at all sure that the bits that didn't go missing along the way will actually go togeather at all.

Perhaps this seized, knackered, engine will just be the spare.  Maybe the other one will get built up and prove to be a corker.  Maybe this one will come apart and get done "properly".

The objective is to breath life back into it rather than restore to the peak of fitness.  Meanwhile I'm having fun, and keeping my powder dry.

David

BUT DO KEEP THE ADVICE COMING!!

Its not just hands on experiance and tips for where I'm at - I'm also lapping up the help ready for when I either "make a proper job" of this engine or push on again with the other.

...and when I come to measure up the pins and bores it well may prove too far gone...the dream of a "strip, clean, reassemble" may die...but in the meantime I chug on in hope...

I'm also reassured by tails (from the 50s and 60s) of how long Aprilias would keep going in the most appalling mechanical condition. 

David

David,

I am pleased to return to this theme and I do agree with your approach of doing the minimum to get it up and running.

Purists and rich men should look away at this point, but I reckon you might well get away without a crankshaft reground and new white-metalling. When you have it fully dismantled, and if the white metal doesn’t look granulated or run-out, and if the crank ovality is not that bad, then I think you could do a good, cheap and pleasurable job simply by ‘stoning down’ the bearing caps and scraping the white metal to fit.

This was commonly done in ancient times and it worked. You need to measure the ovality of the crank and I seem to recall that if it’s no more than something between 5 and 10 thou then it’s OK. Then use silicon carbide paper laid on a bit of plate glass with paraffin on the surface of the paper and thin-down the caps with a ‘figure of 8 motion’ to get a uniform cut to the desired depth. Then clean it and bolt it up with ‘engineer’s blue’ on the surface of the white metal to reveal the high spots and then use a hand scraping tool to cut the white-metal back. Repeat a thousand times until you have a ‘good fit’ for each of the mains and ends.

Actually, I only ever did this once on an Aprilia engine, but it was about the most pleasurable of all jobs I have ever done on a car and it lives in my memory. And it worked – with lots of oil pressure and no rattles. Also, as a job, it combines the pleasures of woodwork-like ‘scraping skills’ with the precision of metal work. I am sure you would enjoy it!

I don’t doubt David Wheeler’s quality of experience with Serdi and Vibration Free. But I have to tell you that I hear that the latter has amongst its specialist tools a powerful invoicing machine that is heavily geared so that once it is running it’s difficult to stop – this could be painful.

Keep up the good work and having fun!

Colin

My Austin 7 special started with a "get you going" engine - which got me going. 

I then built up a engine with all the (then) tricks - a reliant crank and shell bearings and modern pistons and pressure feed and a spacer plate to raise the block and a modified flywheel and bits ground off here there and everywhere to get it all to fit and it was great while it lasted - but it didn't last all that long...and nobody seemed to get theirs to last all that long either... 

Running out of time for an event (working on a duel oil pump setup I thing it was) I took "a bucket of bits" - I stoned down some caps and hand scraped the white metal and thumped it about until everything was in and free.  I did use new rod bolts and new nylock nuts everywhere but it was second hand pistons with their original rings and a missmatched set of rods with no attempt to balance it and worn ball and roller bearings for the crank and a standard oil pump etc etc.   That "stop gap" engine is still in the car.   Aside from some new nuts and bolts it does have a modern oil filter.

Maybe the engine in the Austin 7 will get what's now the conventional replica crank and rods and professional remetal.  I'd love to start from scratch again and built a reliant crank based engine as there are advantages for all the labour charge would be so great that it can only really be an amateur effort. Maybe maybe maybe.  Meanwhile there's an engine in the car that goes plenty well enough.

So that's something of the background.  Aside from a lot of money over a long period of time into an Aprilia engine that never came togeather I've also been somewhat burned by over complicating an Austin 7 engine build.  I've also had great service from something rebuilt from worn out and mismatched bits. 

So fingers crossed !!   Both that it does work out well, and that I get the rest of the car togeather before it seizes up again.  At least as a stand alone "power pack" it could be run on high days and holy days.

David

  In defence of Vibration Free, they charged me exactly half what they should have done because the engine took a very long time to balance with the new rods.  On the other hand, if it had not been rebalanced, it would not have run at all.  I think the bill was in the order of £350+ VAT.
  I too put a "runner" in the car that I had got from Julian Bolton and which had been in a Farina tourer but it failed its second MOT because of excessive smoke!  It rattled horribly too and I felt quite unable to go anywhere far for fear of a big end giving out. The oil pressure looked fine but merely reflected the choked oil ways.  I don't know how much remetalling costs nowadays, it might not be much less than the conversion to shell bearings but then there is the cost of rods etc. which is a lot.  Please do not grind down the caps!! It may be OK for an Austin seven, not the most stressed engine in the world but I doubt if it would be good enough for an Aprilia and ruins the rods for ever more unless you are incredibly skilled.
   I ran the Lambdas on white metal for many years (the VIIth is still on them) so I know they are good for 30,000 miles or more so that would be a route to go if the big ends are not badly worn.  If they need to be reground make sure that does not mean excessive white metal thickness on the resulting bearings as if it is too thick they will fail.  I was going by the photo which looks as if the bearing surfaces are quite badly scored.  If they are not then you should be fine.  Plastigauge is useless but newspaper is usually 2 thou thick and will help you to determine the bearing clearances.
I found Serdi to do a very good job but you just have to ring them up every couple of weeks or so to keep them going otherwise your job gets displaced.  They do have the proper jigs for reboring Lancia V4 engines, not to be done by the tyro in your local machine shop as the geometry is not simple.

theoretically anything under .014 inch is desirable and in general the thinner the better.In fact this dimension (0.014) is the point at which durability starts to improve. (all other conditions being equal). If reduced to 0.008 the durability already doubles and more than doubles again by 0.004. Of course if you have to grind too much off in the first place you will have thicker white metal bearings but reduced durability resulting in more frequent rebuilds which starts to change the cost equation of fitting shell bearings.!

white metal is soft and the thicker it is the greater the relative compression and working it experiences during the engine cycles.Simply put it experiences more fatigue the thicker it is and is prone to earlier failure.

The newspaper-shim tip was a good one.

New metal for rods isn't expensive at all - its when the mains need doing and the job needs setting up for a line bore that the price goes skywards.   These rods have shells with the white metal over.  My memory of the other one was white metal directly onto the alloy.  It gives a third option of new undersize shells with a new thin deposit of white metal.  Option four is a set of new alloy rods - when the other engine was being "progressed" (hohum) they were not available but now there's a fair choice of suppliers.

By the magic of the interweb here's a price list:-

http://www.johnsonsengineers.com/jel_prices.php

Are phoenix rods 150 each?  Add in the rebalance so perhaps modern shells is an extra 7-800 but of course that also buys the peace of mind of the new steel rods and beautiful smoothness.  Would make sense on an engine with the valve train worked to increase the rev limit.  My memory of the BWE recipe was thinner stems on the valves, alloy spring retainers (but looking at the steel ones its hard to imagine much gain there), and a slight increase in spring weights.

David

When I get the bearings clean I'll try and take some accurate photos.

Anyone know what a tollerable bore clearance might be?

David

http://www.johnsonsengineers.com/jel_gallery.php

There's a picture of a "Lancia V8 Dilambda with new mains and big ends
ready for crankshaft fitting".

Alloy rods wouldn't worry - they picture a "Re-metalled and machined Triumph Speed Twin connecting rod. Aluminium rod and steel cap".

Its also interesting to see VERY thick bearings.  I expect the alloys vary enormously... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal

This link has an interesting list of types of rod. 

http://homepages.tesco.net/harle71/harle71/bearings.htm

I understand many drag racers have an alloy rod run directly on the crank with no additional bearing material but I didn't realise Lagonda did the same prewar.  Perhaps the crank was particularly hard or maybe plated.

John Kirkby is the one name that keeps coming up for "regular" cars, and Formhalls for the Grand Prix sort of stuff.

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/restoration/white_metalling.htm
http://www.classiccarwebsite.com/home/c4973_white_metal_bearing

David

Time to clarify a few things! I think:

•   The early Aprilia had aluminium alloy rods that fitted directly onto the crank pins. Sounds nice, but apparently it didn’t prove too durable.
•   Later and modified engines had hard demountable metal (bronze/ steel?) shells with thick white metal bearing material cast in, which was between 1 and 3 mm thick. About the same as the mains, I think.
•   Thin wall bearings with bronze/ steel caps and a thin layer of bearing material, say 0.3 mm (0.012 inch) thick, came later and may have been retro fitted to Aprilia engines.

‘Stoning down’, as I have suggested would only be appropriate for thick white metal and the reduction in cap thickness would be negligible in terms of any reduction in overall strength.

Purists and rich men eat your hearts out!

Colin

I suggested to Serdi that we make new bronze backing shells to fit between the later series rods and shell bearings but they said the the rods themselves were not good enough so I went the route of new steel rods and Vibration Free.  This is an expensive route!  The rods were £200 each and Vibration Free at half price were still £411.   I suspect that, if they have to do it again, it would be cheaper as they now know what to do.  I wonder though if the best thing to do would not be new bronze backing shells and thin wall shells mounted in them.  It works very well in the Lambda and I doubt if it would cost a lot more than new white metal.  I have a set of spare rods if you need them!!

YIPPEEEE!!!!

Got a couple of half hours at it this weekend and the crank and pistons are now out. 

Took but moments to clean the bore tops with a PROPER wire brush in a cordless drill.  After all the soaking and tapping back and forth over the weeks (months?) prior the pistons could be pushed up to the bore ridge by hand.  I then used a 3in wide strip of ply as a drift against the bottom of the rods and a small rubber mallet (I've got more than a draw full of different hammers) to pop the rings then eased them the rest of the way out by hand. 

So went three of the four.

The problem was that on some of them the bolts have been pushed up, and on one of them a bolt head caught on a liner.   What to do?   With the rings out the top I couldn't push it down.  Remove the rings?  Compress and re-insert?  The bolt couldn't be pushed down by hand, and putting a nut on the end and pulling didn't work.  After a soak (for the bolt) and a ponder I put a stack of washers on the bolt and tightened the nut down a bit, off again and add another few washers, tighten a bit more and so on and the bolt moved almost all the way back (the head had turned so fouled on the rod rather than seating) but far enough to be able to wiggle it past the liner and out.

With the pistons and rods out and the crank was free to turn without obstruction and feed the timing chain out.

I could also spin the crank and the oil pump drive until the drive gear taper pin was accessible and drive that out.  Easy enough with the right size drift - the first was just the right size to jam in the hole rather than drive it all the way through but with THAT free I found a blunt burr from removing the cotter pins was the right size and the prize pin popped out, gear slipped off, and the shaft came out the top with finger pressure.

The fuel pump drive pin is the next target.  It moves down in response to the small rubber mallet but it needs to be teased up.  Its soaking for now.  The "mystery screw" inside the fuel pump mounting flange (previous posting) just pokes out the other end into the crankcase - maybe to plug a hole or crack?   Should there be a hole to let a bit of oil mist into the fuel pump drive?

Crank lifted out as easily long as it was held level so as the thrusts didn't pinch it.  The main bearings look well worth a try and no obvious damage on the crank.  Once its all clean I'll measure.

Piston little ends are tight.  I soak and wiggled one until it was loose but again just how loose is a "race tollerance" and how loose is a "rattle from the little end"?  With this engine am happy to "suck it and see".   

Pistons are Hepolite +30.  No broken rings and only a few remain stuck.

Maybe its the timing chain tensioner next.

David

Well done!  Nice that you are making such good progress.   I did fit a 2CV petrol pump at one time (it bolts straight on) but have now just covered the hole and fitted an electric pump which is much better and saves much engine churning in the mornings.

Tipped the photos out of the camera into the back of the PC last night. 

The question is if that's a repair to the front of the block or if they're all like that...?

The pic of the crank and again of the rods and pistons merely by way of celebration.

David

No, they are all like that it allows access to the gears at the front of the crank.  If you withdraw the crank gear and oil flinger you can then remove the crank without extracting the distributor drive shaft.  The back is similar as I recall but my spare engines are buried in a steel cupboard so I cannot be sure.
When you finally reassemble, make sure you put in place something to prevent oil tracking along between the crankshaft pulley and the crankshaft (see "mysterious oil leak"!).

Loved this thread guys....simply wonderful, I can only assume it all worked out as it should have in the end?


P

Its all a bit Marie Celest at this point.  Every time I pass I spray a bit of WD40 its way.  Hardo to see me getting even 10mins on it before Christmas.  Who knows over the Christmas season...everyone else glued to the TV and sneak away...

David

There is a return scroll thread on the crankshaft at each end and this depends on a close interference fit with the aluminium.  Yours looks unworn so should be OK within the limits of 1938 technology.   My oil leak is getting better as crankcase pressure drops as the rings bed in.  That is the trouble with using modern oils, there is so much less wear that running in takes a loooong time.

I have a set of new genuine SSS pistons (72.7mm) that I bought from Harry 40 years ago and are now surplus to requirements.  No rings but Alan at Clupet Piston rings just down the road from here will be able to make some.  The crowns are very slightly domed so standard compression.