Lancia Motor Club

Hi, I am going to strip the head off the car, I have the brown workshop manual and a cd to follow.
Just wondering if anyone can give me the odd tip and things to look out for, should I set the timing before I start,  is there any sequence to loosen the head bolts? any advise will be a help.
Thank You.
Bill.

Hello Bill

One thing I think the manuals don't tell you is if the car is in a driving state with coolant, then draining the system via the drain valve still leaves the rear of the block/head with some coolant in it.   If you intend to remove the water pump, that will empty the system - all over the garage floor!   If you intend to leave the pump undisturbed, then jack up the rear of the car under the axle, first, as high as possible.  This will let some more coolant drain out, thus reducing the risk of coolant getting down into the sump oil when the gasket seal is broken.

Roddy Young

Suggest make a careful note which head bolts go where - because there are two of the long ones that are a different length to the others. Worth replacing the head bolts with some capheads of suitable quality.

Hi, thank you for your replies, progress so for every thing stripped down, just ready to remove timing chain and head. After slackening the timing chain do I need to remove the cam wheels or will the chain lift over them. I know some of these question may seem straight foward to the experienced, this is the first time I have taken on a job like this and I am determind to learn how to do it.
Thank you for your time.
Bill.

If you rotate the engine, the timing chain has a link that can be removed (a clip on the side facing you at the front of the car). Once broken (be careful with small parts falling off!) you can break the chain easily.

Hi Bill,
I'm fairly sure someone has already said to keep to the chain taut as if it drops it can knock off the oil feed nozzle for the chain, which will then mean dropping the sump and a lot more work, I just thought it worth repeating.

Brian
8227 8)

Hello Bill

Rotate the crank until the chain split-link is between the timing wheels.  Mark with Tippex or similar, the flywheel position and the cam/chain-wheel position to the front cam bearing caps.  Stuff rags etc into the timing chain chest to stop anything dropping in when splitting the chain.   Note that the spring link holding the chain pins should have the open ends following the direction of chain travel, when refitting it.   Tie bits of string on to each end of the chain - it can be easier to loop through your hand than have chain slipping through your fingers!   Don't let the chain drop off the toothed wheel on the crank, or you run the risk of loosing the timing (as well as the risk of damaging the oil feed end - as mentioned).   You shouldn't need to disturb the chain wheels from the camshaft ends - just lift them off after undoing the bearing caps.   See Peter Gerrish's timely reminder concerning the various lengths of bearing cap bolts and their relevant positions ie best advise - keep them in the same position as they come off.  Get another pair of hands to hold the bits of string taught when you lift out the head - my wife is a fully fledged Fulvia mechanic now!  Anchor the bits of string to keep the chain reasonably tight in timing chest.

Regards - Roddy Young

Hello Bill

Another couple of points that might be of assistance nearer the end when everything is being re-assembled.   Again as Peter Gerrish has written on, take care when replacing the camshafts on to the head that the drilling in the bronze shell of the front bearing of each cam is correctly located on to the little dowel pin, before fitting on the cap.   Even if you have an S3 engine which has the cam wheels key-way'd on to the cam (and therefore not adjustable), it is still worth-while checking the camshaft timing.   It is surprisingly easy to be one tooth out on a wheel.   Checking is explained in the driver's glovebox handbook, but basically you set No. 1 piston tappets to 2.2mm and using the thinnest feeler in two feeler gauges, as the flywheel hits TDC, one gauge should just be pinching the tappet and the other releasing.   If you are 1 tooth out, you need to split the chain again, and move the cam-wheel;  and re-check.   All very time consuming, but it has got to be perfect!    If you have the vernier adjustable cams, then you can adjust the timing there;  but I will leave the explaining to someone else?

Regards - Roddy

Hi, thank you once more for the valuable information, sprockets all marked with tipex.
Do I need to slaken off the tension when taking out the spring link, if so how do you do it, does the water pump have to come off, if so does it come off via the allen screws or the bolts from the crankcase?

Thank you once more.
Bill.

You should find that there is enough slack in the chain (the tensioner is pressurised, engine off no pressure no tension) but you can push the tensioner back with a long screwdriver if required. There is no need to remove the water pump.

Thank you Neil for the quick reply, do not know what I would do without this forum. back to the car.
Cheers.
Bill.

A simple way to slacken the tensioner is to undo the top bolt (13 mm socket) which cannot fall off into the timing chest because it has a long untreaded shank.
It is a good idea to check the condition of the tensioner spring (sometimes it is badly worn) and the tensioner pad. The tensioner bolt should have a small hole for oil flow. If this is blocked (or even welded in the attempt to raise the oil pressure), the tensioner body becomes full of junk. Andrea

Hello again,I have the head off the car now, not sure how to tell if it is the head gasket. This is what I found, some of the head bolts were coverd in a thick sludge (mud) and in the middle of the gasket there are two holes around 20 mil. over 3/4 of the hole was coverd not allowing full water flow.
I could not see any tracking where the water maybe getting into the combustion chamber. I did notice no. three combustion chamber looked oily although the exhaust port was dry. this had a reading of 150 when checked. I think and hope this was when the mechanic was putting oil into the bores. Also there was slight drips of water coming out of the exhaust it looked more like condensation, I noticed that last week.
Thank you for all the tips the pad on the chain tensioner looks to have score marks on it, is this normal?

Thanks once more to everyone for your time and interest
It is more than appreciated.

Bill.

Bill, can you post pictures of the gasket faces, cylinder head face and blck face? it would really help with advice!

Bill,
I would agree it's much better to see what the actual condition is, if you're not sure how to go about it, here's what I posted for information previously for someone.

"As far as adding photos, after you've typed out your message, below the box to the left it says "Additional Options" if you click on this it will open a browse box, browse & find your photo and click on open, this will then put the Photos address on the box; to add another photo click on "More Attachments" alongside the browse button and repeat browsing, and so on to a maximum of 8 items, from experience I would suggest you resize a copy of the original to about 100kbs, much larger than that and you can't see all the photo without adjusting the frame."

Brian
8227 8)

Hello Bill

I may have missed the beginning of your saga, but was it just uneven running and difficulty with the carbs?   Was the water system pressurising and expanding off lots of water?   If not, it may not be the head gasket.   Could be that the front carb was running very lean and has burned valves in cylinders 1 and 2.   You didn't say if putting oil into the bores made any difference to the compression pressures.   If it didn't, then that tends to indicate valves.   Of course my earlier comment about gasket failure allowing compression to escape into the adjoining bore still applies.   Depends how cleanly the gasket separates from the faces on what can be diagnosed with eyesight.   Let me know if copious amounts of water was expanding off, as there can be various reasons for the cause, which can lead to local overheating and gasket failure?   Also, has the oil in the sump started to get a milky opaque colour to it - indicates that water is in the oil - if a gasket has failed and the water system is pressurising, when you switch off the engine, the water pressure flows back through the gasket flaw and into the bore and runs down into the sump....

Regards - Roddy

Light score marks on the tensioner pad are OK. Andrea

Sorry to bombard you with more information, but it is all designed to help you (and others?).   When refitting the cylinder head onto the block it is quite difficult to keep the gasket in place (it wants to slip down the block face), locate and hold the head in place, and feed the chain through the head aperture whilst still keeping it tight on the crank chainwheel.   From an engineering suppliers or DIY supermarket, get a length of 8mm threaded rod.   Cut two lengths about 1" longer than a cylinder head bolt.   Screw in the two lengths into the block first.   This then gives you a pilot for holding the gasket in place, locating the head, and letting you re-tie the string to hold the ends of chain in place.   You will be aware that 2 of the cylinder head bolts have a slightly thicker diameter shank, and these are the two bolts to fix in first to correctly locate the head and gasket on to the block.  Now unscrew and remove the two pilot rods and fit in the remaining bolts.   Torque in stages and in order.   The W/M gives the location of the 'thicker' bolts and the tightening order.   Of course, all the tappings into the block should have been clean and free of grit/oil/etc. first.

Regards - Roddy   

Back again, will take some pics once the weather brightens up. I was talking to my brother in law last night and said when I have went this far why dont I take out the pistons, to check them. It sounds scary to me but he has a point.
Can this be done with the engine in the car, and its it complicated?
Thank you.
Bil..

I'm not sure what you would gain other than seeing the condition of the bearings. You haven't said what you think the problem is but I take it that you think it is either gasket or valves?

If you are going as far as taking the pistons out you are getting close to a full rebuild as you would probably want to replace rings and bearings. You will need to remove the sump to get to the rod bolts. How many miles has the car/engine done?

Hi Neil, I was just going to take out he pistons to see what state they are in, and if that is the reason for the low compression.(rings)
I have had two mechanics look at the head gasket and they cannot see any problems with it. Tomorrow I am going to strip the head and see what the valves are like.
Will keep you informed.
Bill.

Hi Phil, I think the has done around 70,000 this is begining to be a mystery, hope it can be sorted.
Thank You.
Bill.

I'm not sure checking the pistons will shed any light on the problem. It may be the rings are worn (or broken, misaligned etc) but it is far more likely to be bore wear if that is problem and highly unlikely to be a problem with the pistons. Now you have the head off you can measure the bores with a dti. Even if it is the rings (which I would consider unlikely) you are better advised to have the block at least re-honed before putting new ones in. If it is bore wear then you will need a re-bore and next size pistons.

It's a shame you haven't been able to isolate the problem before taking the head off, but TBH now you have the head off I would get it sorted and re-fit it to see if that solves the problem. If it does fix it then you've saved yourself the hassle of unnecessarily taking the pistons out (and in doing this you will have to get a new sump gasket, remove the oil pick up (new gasket), and run the risk of breaking the existing rings if you re-fit them). If it doesn't you know where to look next and you've not really lost anything apart from a bit of time.

The other approach is that touched on by Phil - you are half way to an engine rebuild. 70k is a good mileage for an engine and I suspect it is less broken and more just tired  - so remove it and do a full rebuild (and if you are into a re-bore and new pistons it won't cost much more anyway - especially if you can do most of it yourself).

Hi Neil,thank you for your reply you have a good point, I think I will go down your first road, if it does not work, out comes the engine. It does not seem a big job to remove it.  Taking the head to the machine shop tomorrow to have the valves done and ask them to tidy up the ports. one thing puzzling me was why were some of the bolts coverd in sludge and some bone dry?
Thank you once more for your time.
Cheers to all.
Bill.

Not sure about the bolts.

If you get the chance I would measure the bores before you put the head back. The details are below and you can tell if it is an A or B class because there will be a stamp next to the cylinder on the block top deck. That will give a clue of where you stand.

All the best

If you do go to the total rebuild remember that you do not take the engine out of the car, you take the car off the engine.  It is much easier to undo the four bolts holding the subframe to the car and lift the car off the unit than to wriggle the engine off the gearbox in the car.  With the engine/gearbox/subframe unit on the garage floor things are so much easier to get at and you can also check the subframe which may well have holes it it and also clean up the engine bay, repair the steering box, check the brake lines etc. etc..   I have done it both ways and find taking the lot out much the easier route.  You just need a stout beam, a piece of 3x4 to go across the engine bay and a decent block and tackle.
David

Go back to page three for full instructions!
David