Lancia Motor Club

APPIA BUYERS GUIDE, produced by Don Cross of the Appia Consortium

The range of Appia cars covers Series 1,2 and 3 Saloons , Coupe, Convertible,Lusso and Zagato. The remarks in this guide basically apply to all variants  except the comments on bodywork where the Zagato is the exception as it has an all aluminium body on a steel tube frame all the other models have steel monocoque body shells. The guide is in six sections –bodywork, suspension, engine, transmission, brakes and electrics and fuel and carb.

Bodywork

The saloon  bodies are pillarless ie no B post,  check that the doors open and close easily, even with fairly rotten cars the doors will continue to open reasonably well. If they do not  then there is likely to be a terminal problem somewhere. Series 1 and 2 cars have aluminium doors but Series 3 cars have steel doors and rust tends to attack the bottom of the doors. Other areas to check for rust are the tops of the front and rear wings particularly at the A post  and C post. This is usually caused by mud and moisture lodged between the body and the wing and can lead to rot in the front bulkhead and rear wheel arch. Sills can also be a problem and if these are suspect check the floor panels. The chassis models can have similar problems – area to check is the water drain from the front windscreen  down through a tube hidden by the front wing on the Coupe, if this is not clear then there could be trouble in the bulkhead and inner wing. On the convertible double check the sills as weakness here will cause trouble in opening and closing the doors. The Zagato has a aluminium  panels attached to steel tubes and this is a recipe for electrolytic action  - difficult to check but if there is a problem it will be an expensive one!

Suspension

The front suspension is sliding pillar and in general is not a problem. If after a car has stood for a long while it can become stiff and will usually ease up with running. Difference in height between offside and nearside could indicate a tired or broken spring. Check for play in the front wheel bearings and for play in the sliding pillar.There is always a little in a well used car only if it excessive is it a problem.
Rear springs etc are rarely a problem but check for wear in the silent block bushes.

Engine

The engine is good for many miles and should retain oil pressure at mid point on the gauge in normal running but will drop to nearly the bottom of the gauge on tick over when hot. Excessive exhaust smoke can be caused by either worn pistons/ rings or worn valve guides. There is usually some smoke when starting from cold after the car has stood for a while this should clear after a short run. Otherwise all the normal checks one does when evaluating an engine apply.

Transmission

At each end of the prop shaft there is a rubber coupling, check for decay /splitting of the rubber. Back The clutch in general is no problem but if there is juddering when starting in first gear or particularly in reverse this can be oil on the clutch plate. The oil can get into the bell housing either from the rear oil seal at the rear of the engine or the seal on the main shaft of the gearbox. There should be about ½ inch play at the pedal , if there is more than this it either needs adjustment or the clutch plate is worn.

The gearbox is very reliable but has no synchromesh on first and reverse. First gear is straight cut and therefore is normally a little noisy but  if loud then it is likely that first gear is badly worn. Apart from the noise if first gear is badly worn then when driving the car it is likely to jump out of gear. If there is a tendency to jump out of all gears it is not necessarily the gearbox but the adjustment in the gear selection mechanism or worn bushes in the selection levers. Back axle is rarely a problem, it is not usually noisy nor have a whine.

Brakes

If set up correctly they are very good. If the car has stood make sure the plunger on the Fluid reservoir is fully up and the pedal firm with about ½ inch play before feeling the pressure. Common fault is pulling either to the left or right and this is caused by a variety of reasons non difficult to remedy. Handbrake is dependant on properly adjusted brakes .

Electrics

The electrics are Italian and subject to normal faults, if there is a failure in part of the system first check that all the fuses have clean contacts, corrosion occurs between the fuse and the contact, it is often sufficient just to rotate the fuses, this is worth doing even if there is no fault. All contacts and earths should be regular checked.

If the starter solenoid on Series 2 and 3 does not operate check contacts, if problem still exists run a line from the battery or a live source directly to the contact on the solenoid. If it operates then the problem lies in the ignition switch, probably the contacts in the back of the switch.

Fuel / Carb

Carb should be no trouble as it has fixed jets, play in the throttle spindle can lead to lumpy running at idle. Check for dirt in the float chamber. The Fispa fuel pump is renowned for letting the petrol drain back down the tube, which results in the starter motor having to work overtime to pump up sufficient petrol to start the engine, this can lead to burning out  the bridge holding the brushes in the starter motor. It is advisable to fit an electric pump to prime the system. There is a filter in the petrol tank and if the tank has any corrosion this can lie as a sediment in the bottom of the tank and block off the lower part of the filter. This will allow the bottom of the tank to have a few litres of fuel so that the low level warning light does not come on, but the fuel does not get sucked into the system.

As this is a buyers guide I would have thought prices should be included. Its a good idea to copy Consortium material though.

not really necessary Peter as that information can be found relatively easily, besides that it would be a real pain to keep updated, I originally wrote the Dedra Guide a couple of years ago, with so few good Dedras about these days I'd hate to even guess at the price for a good one, the good ones I've seen in the last few years have mostly sold for what anyone is prepared to pay for them, usually over the odds, whereas a rough one, or one without an MOT, are only worth scrap, or spares value.

Brian
8227 8)

how do you value a classic car these days?? my augusta is insured and valued by the lmc at £10,000, yet a car far worse than mine has sold in  italy for 16k  ??? my fulvia 3 was valued at 6k yet i sold it on ebay for 9k, i think these types of car are worth "what people are willing to pay" so pretty hard to give figures on on their value

Your Augusta is worth a lot more than that! I would think about double.
Regards, John

this is my point, what value do you put on these cars?? i've just been sent a link by my dad to an augusta forsale in holland for 23,500 euro's , its not as nice as my dads yet his is valued at top book 15k

http://www.retrolegends.nl/UK/index.html

its about half way down the page have a look, interior is better than mine but bodily and under bonnet etc is probably not as good as mine  ???

Perhaps the only way is to capture the prices (although I guess you don't know the actual sold value) and then you'll have the facts to give to the insurers when the value them ?

steve i think thats a great idea, whether it would make any differance i dont know but its a good idea to possibly get the valuation changed by the lmc, insurance companies always aim low on their values, when my evo was written off it was insured for 11k, i got paid out 8k ;less than i'd bought it for 2 months previous!!  :'(

Don't the registras record cars seen advertised, sale price when known etc?  When I first got my Aurelia the club was able to give me the contents of "its file" which included an exchange and mart advert and some other history.

An idea to share the workload might be to have a single thread (sticky?) in each model's area to record "the market".  There's often threads on particular cars "seen on ebay" etc.  Today's interest (for me) was the 1967 Fulvia 1.3 Rallye which made its reserve at 1,307.

David

I don't know whether anyone is recording these things : it seems like something that should be done. A single sticky thread would be easy to set up as a place for members to record pricing.
Finally (and on my list of things to do) this information can be entered into the online database to capture prices over time (in the same way I'd like to put in the MOT information over time).
It's certainly something we all have an interest in : agreed valuations.

I have seen a fair few Augustas advertised on Italian sites for 30K+ euros, and if I were James I certainly wouldn't sell that Augusta for under 30K!

. . . and I've just upped the agreed value of mine to £25,000! Perhaps I should have gone higher.
 Regards, John

Regarding the question of up to date 'old car' prices, IMHO the only data worth recording and saving is a chronological list of prices for the make/model achieved at Auction together with the date and a v short description of the vehicle sold.
 Chris

Chris,
Good idea.
Check:
http://viva-lancia.com/auction/index.php
Some are there, sorry there are not too many Appias and Augustas on it.
It is very difficult to put an "honest" description on cars which one has not seen. However, for more information, one can access the web page of the relevant auction house and sale, and try to get more information, as the profiles of the cars are normally accessible many years after the auction.

Quoting myself here (only the best sources!). Something which has exercised my mind in recent years is, does the value of foreign cars drop when the foreign currency drops?

When I wrote the above we were at close to 1 euro to the pound; today it is 1.38. So now 30000 euros, instead of being close to £30000, is under £22000.

The good thing about this for Brits is that it makes cars cheaper to buy (it's why I just bought my 'new' S1). The downside is that if the market 'thinks' in euros, the values of the cars we already own has dropped. I think it probably depends where the demand is - as Aprilias and Augustas are very sought-after in the UK, I doubt if their values have dropped much, because UK buyers will be a significant market driver. Likewise Integrales.

I suspect Aurelia values may have also dropped a bit, as a lot of the demand for those comes from Italy and Germany, as well as from the USA, and so their value will have 'corrected' a bit with the euro - the US dollar is a bit higher but still only around 1.50.

However, I know (from experience!) that there isn't a lot of Appia demand in the UK, partly because so few were sold there, and partly for the not-unrelated reason that no-one has the first clue what they are (I loathe Top Gear and their values, but one of their more memorable quotes is that a car can never be 'cool' if you have to explain what it is! Personally I strive to avoid cars that are 'kewl' (because cool = common), but 'coolness' does usually generate demand, which moves prices upwards - hence the rocketing prices of Integrales).

So I have a horrible feeling that Appia values have dropped 10-20% over the last few months. As I said, the upside is that we can buy them more cheaply. But the downside is that the ones we already have are depreciating fast! And so is my house!

I suppose one answer would be to use an indendent valuer such as http://www.classiccarvaluations.co.uk/

This is just a random one I found. At least you would have something in writing for your insurer (as long as it was better news than you'd hoped for). As for values Quentin Willson always makes me smile on the new Classic Car programme. He'll say 'Go and buy a such and such now because you can get a mint low mileage example for just five grand!'. Two thoughts come to mind -

1. No you can't. You might be able to through your contacts in the trade. Everyone else will just find a high mileage dog for that money.

2. Maybe you could have done until you just said that!

Interesting words. I was not aware of the 'rocketing values' for good Integrales? I thought they had been stuck at £20-25k asking price for the last 3 or 4 years.
An awful lot of car for the money at that price mind you particularly  when compared to Porsche 993's of the same period (and which were also produced in large numbers) which have risen to the extent that there now appears to be a real shortage of cars for sale and even tiptronics are selling quickly.
Chris

As a professional valuer, not of cars I hasten to add, this thread is interesting.

Doing any valuation depends on knowing the product, knowing the market and having access to the fullest and most acurate information. Where differentials in price are acheived you need to understand how the items differed and what factors affected the market. Auction prices have a certain status because of the open bidding process but the way they reflect the market will depend on whether the vendor has chosen the right auction house, the right venue and the right time to bring their car to the market. Just think of how often a car sails way past its' reserve and reflect on what the outcome would have been if the last two bidders happened, for some accidental reason, not to be present on the day. Private sales will be affected by how desperate the owner is to sell, how the car has been advertised and who hapens to be in the market at the time.

My inclination would be to rely on a marque specialist, commercial or club advisor, and for members to provide them with any information on cars for sale or sold. If you go to look at a potential purchase and decide to walk away it would be informative for the club expert to know what the issues were with the car so they can reasonably judge the implications of condition when appraising an eventual sale price.

Ideally someone would have the time, resources and inclination to collate all such information...but therin lies the problem.

No-one's told these blokes then:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251505799063

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161403300107

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271792839253

O.K., the Martini 6 might be an exception, but the last one is Walker's, and they should know the market.

However, in my opinion / experience, it's not so much what others are *asking* that matters, as actual sale prices, and more to the point, demand. If no-one wants a car that is 'worth' £20K, you can ask £20K for it till you are blue in the face, but you won't get it.

The point about Integrales is that EVERYONE knows what they are, EVERYONE wants one, and EVERYONE thinks they are 'kewl' (a bit like VW Splitscreens). A lot of the buyers might be dreamers and wannabes, but they sure as hell want one. And will buy one if/when they have the money.

I have been driving the covered trailer back and forth to France for the last 2-3 years, containing my possessions and cars. At first it used to say 'Lancia' on the back, and people kept buttonholing me at the docks and asking if there was an Integrale inside. Then I removed the writing, and now they just ask what's inside. When I say a Lancia, they again ask 'is it an Integrale?' When I tell them it isn't, the disappointment is palpable.

I am slightly sad that I don't have a Grale any more, but I at least have a VW Splitscreen, and I know that every time I look at that, it looks like money in the bank to me.

I prefer the Appias though!