Lancia Motor Club

I have recently recovered my B20 from a corner of the garage and a restoration is underway. I hope to have the energy to tell the story and share some of my experiences. I have been hugely encouraged by reading other threads in the Forum and hope my tale may help others.

I bought my 4th Series B20, chassis no. 3447, ran it, when it obliged me, for 2 years then popped it into my dry and warm garage 'for a short while' before having a little welding done. Then those most ravenous devourers of time and money known to man appeared ..... children !!!!!!!!!!

Time for a few statistics ............

The car was first registered in Italy in 1955, it was imported to the UK in 1963, I bought it in 1974 and it went into my garage in 1976. There it stayed and literally, did not turn a wheel until it was pushed out and transported to my workshop at the beginning of the month. This means the car is 55yrs old, it has spent 8yrs in Italy, 13yrs on the road in the UK and  34yrs in my garage !!!!!!!

The current situation is that that the interior has been stripped out, doors, bonnet and bootlid removed and the floor pan attacked with an angle grinder with a hard wire brush. This and the traditional 'stab it with a big screwdriver', has revealed the usual rust problems, but, so far, it does not look as bad as I had feared. I think I might be tempting providence here !!!!!!! Only time will tell whether or not I have as bad, or worse, tin worm than in those other  horror photos recently in the forum. If my limited computer skills allow, I'll post some photos in due course and you may judge for yourselves.

Thanks go already to Mike Jennings, Peter Harding and Ron Francis who have all been so helpful and encouraging.

I'll keep updating the story as progress is made and energy allows.

                                          Andy

PS I didn't mention that the engine is seized !

I hope it doesn't slow progress on your Augusta too much!
Regards, John

would love to hear about it and some pics  ;)

John, I think that progress maybe slowed a little by the resurrection of the B20. I prefer working on the mechanicals to bodywork and progress on the Gussie will be to a certain extent set by the cost and availability of B20 engine and brake parts !!!!!

My good friend Jim, who worked miracles on the bodywork of the Gussie, is now tackling the B20 and it will start off with new sills, inner, outer and perforated central member to both sides and the outer third of the floor pan each side. Once that is sorted time to look at the wheel arches, which  appear to be quite good, but time will tell.

Attached are a couple of photos of the B20, in the one in the garage its still on the scaffold planks and steel tube rollers used to move her sideways into the corner. I'll try to get a photo of Jim's craftsmanship, he made the Gussie bootlid from scratch, re-using only the spare wheel boss and the catch.

                          andy

Well done, restoring a B20...with a seized engine...in a recession !!...you give hope to the rest of us.

Thanks for the comment Kevin, lunacy runs in the family so I'm not surprised at what I'm doing !!!!!!!!

It was to a large degree your thread that has inspired me, I have been looking carefully at the areas where you've had problems and keeping my fingers crossed. It doesn't look too bad to me, I'm either very lucky or someone has been very clever with the filler. We will see.

Oops,...you'd better not look at this so..!!

Well, I popped over to Ibiza for a week to see my son married, (that's the last one of the four), and when I came back .......... apparently not as bad as yours Kevin, but still a lot to do. The hope is that the rust doesn't extend much further at either end of the cill sections, we will see !!!!

The photo show the extent of the rust revealed so far and the new central membrane sections, fabricated by Jim.  A previous owner repaired the badly rusted floor be welding new material ONTO the top of the floor, leaving the original steel, a recipe for further rust so I need to replace the outer third of the floor on both sides.

This is my sills fitted, you can see we had to replicate the small box sections front and rear of the sills. As we had no patterns, this proved a challange.

I do like seeing them like this - how they go togeather under the skin.

David

I knew I should not tempt providence !!!!!

The sills for both sides have been re-fabricated, as have the outer sections of the floor pan, all expected, as stated in my previous log. In addition the floor area around the gearstick and the drivers footwell has been fabricated. Today we started to look more closely at the areas where the A and B pillars are supposed to join onto the sill, not too much there to replicate but we'll have a go. The idea is to get the sill and floorpan repaired and then move forward from the A pillar to the rear end of the front wheelarch, we can see  already there will be a lot of challenges !!!!!!! The photos show what seem to be the usual problems.

The engine is out, a much easier task than expected, but so far I have removed only the rocker covers All ok on the nearside, but the photo shows the accumulation of gunge around the valve mechanism for no.6 and I've yet to remove the heads to look at what exactly is seized.

Regards,

             Andy

Leave Jim with an angle grinder for an hour last thing on a Sunday afternoon and this is what happens .....

The areas at both ends of the off-side sill are pretty dire as per the attached, it is obvious that there has never been any attempt to get any paint or coating onto the inside faces of the various sill sections, it's a wonder things aren't worse !!

Ohhh, lot of work there, mine was bad, but previous repairs had held some of the rot at bay. I should have some photos somewhere of what was left of the 'old metal' which allowed us to recreate was we thought was a good copy of the original inner panelwork.

Well, things have moved on a little, as usual a mix of good news and bad news. Thank you Kevin for the offer of photos of your work, any help to let us know how things went together would be very useful.

I've attached a couple of pictures to show our mixed blessings as found this weekend. The problems at each end of the cill are greater than at first thought but unbelievably, apart from small perforations at the front ends adjacent to the cills, both outer wheelarches are in perfect condition. It remains to be seen what the inner arches are like. To assist with those explorations, today the transaxle was dropped out, without any problems and, hopefully, this week I'll be able to remove the de Dion complete with springs and hubs. Then out with the angle grinder to investigate the inner arches and areas around the spring hangers. There is a lot of corrosion around the front hangers and the back end doesn't look good either so lots of work there.

A good feel up behind the offside front wing rearwards of the wheel arch indicates that there are no major problems, the damping disc appears to be in good condition and properly attached to the panel and apart from surface rust the whole area seems to be ok. I'll be able to have a look when the bottom of the A pillar and a little more of the panel is cut out and hope that will justify my present optimism. Any suggestions as to treatment of the inside of this original, but rusted panel would be greatly appreciated.

In the meantime I must make time to start stripping the engine and at least start cleaning up the exterior of the transaxle.

                      Andy

I'm horrified to find that its been some 11 weeks since I last updated this thread !!!

 It's been the usual mix of good news/bad news. The corrosion problems at the front end of the rear wheelarch and the rear end of the front wheelarch have been worse than I had hoped, but we still seem to be ok with the wheelarches themselves !!!

We are now at the happy stage of welding bits back in, something that at one point I thought would never happen. The photos speak for themselves. Jim has made all the panels, everything is an exact copy of the original, except he has made a reinforcing panel for the floor area where the Nardi floor change is bolted, when we dismantled it there were splits at 3 of the fixing bolt holes.

There is no doubt that I should have bitten the bullet earlier and before any attempt was made to identify and remove the rusted bits I should have removed the transaxle, and both axles. With these out of the way there is so much better access and moving the car about is so much easier on the home-made dollies.

I have started to dismantle the rear brakes, drums and shoes off at the moment. I used a guide written by Mike Day and purchased from the Club Library back in 1975, it was spot on and a great boon. If you're still out there Mike, many many thanks. The pistons in both cylinders are free, but I haven't removed them yet so I still don't know whether I'll get away with a hone and new seals or have to buy complete cylinders. One oil seal has gone so I'll replace both, can anyone suggest a source, or at least advise a size ?  The master cylinder has been dismantled and looks good but I still can't decide whether or not to go for the stainless steel liner mod.

When I drove the car (35 yrs ago) the diff. seemed quiet so I'll leave that alone, but I recollect a problem with, I think, second gear being noisy. Is this a known weakness and should I be doing something about it ?? Gearboxes terrify me, I have never succeeded in beating one yet, so I'd far rather leave it alone !!!

I know I should check and renew clutch parts so please can someone suggest a source of parts., I presume that all the components are unique to the Aurelia, is that so?

Now to see if I can attach the photos, it's a 50/50 chance.

Best wishes,

                  Andy

I've just found 3 more photos. Chronologically, these come after the first and before the  last 4 in my previous post.

In the first one, the perforated central piece of the sill is only temporarily clamped in place to check alignment etc. It should be welded in during our next session this weekend, provided I remember to buy some gas !!!!!!!!

                   Andy

My two-euro's worth:

With the master cyl and gearbox what's the down side on "suck it and see"?   They're not all that hard to remove later on and you'll do so with knowledge from testing.  To go the other way and insist everything is 100pct first time, the complete rebuild, is much more time (labour and elapsed) and huge sums of money.

Perhaps it's a question of priorities - don't even ask those questions until all the MUST do stuff is done?

David

David, I have given great thought (at least 2secs worth) to the philosophy in your last statement and I intend to adhere to it, strictly, from now on. No more angst and hopefully a huge  saving in time and money !!!!!!

               Andy

When I first got my car, it had been idle for a few years (2 maybe). It had an mot, and I drove it (in the rain) from reading to Holyhead, then ferry home, and a final drive of maybe 50 miles to my home. Remembering that the previous owner had used the car HARD, I was pleasantly surprised.
It had a noisy first gear, and a screeching clutch bearing. apart from that it ran fine. i fitted a new bearing, got the clutch disc relined and that was it. 10 odd years later ( and many races, hillclimbs and the odd rally) it still has a noisy first gear. the clutch has been relined a few times, but mostly due to the rigors of competition than to components.
My advice, for what its worth, would be to leave well alone, and see what happens. Change the oil of course. I learned a lot about Aurelias druing my ownership, but mostly...they are a lot stronger than any self respecting 55 year old car should be. Mr Lancia knew what he was doing when he designed these cars, to quote a statment from one of the classic car magazines...'You'll not see thier like again'

I know I might be playing devil's advocate, but I would say with an Aurelia if you do it right the first time you won't have to do it again! (Although I would leave the internals of the gearbox alone untill you have driven it, just do the clutch)

I am with Ade on this.....and particularly with the brake master cylinder. Fit a new one!
By all means refurbish the wheel cylinders if you are confident they wont leak ..........but if they do and they contaminate the linings?

Regarding wheel cylinders: you can purchase new ones at Cavalitto, and they are not expensive.
However quality of the seals is variable and could be better. I had some that started leaking because of porous seals after 3-4 years, and then I had to redo the linings, and replace the cylinders as well. Not nice....

Sebastien

Thank you everyone who  has taken the time to respond. The problem is that everyone's experience is that little bit different and I don't seem to be getting a clear picture !!!!

I have decided to get some prices from the gp, the site I found after 'googling' SABIF. If their prices seem reasonable I will buy from them, if only to test another supplier !!

If things seem rather expensive, I will try Cavalitto, in spite of Sebastien's experience (worryingly I heard a similar tale of woe from another source!) as there does not seem to be another source (although Peter Harding's sleeved units get only positive reports).

Anyway, the rear wheel cylinders are out and look good so I will give them a light hone to see how good/bad the situation is before deciding on new units or just new seals.

I will keep posting and if anyone comes up with any further thoughts they will be gratefully received and carefully considered.

Best wishes,

                Andy

Now did you think you'd end up with the agony of choice?

David

The agony of choice goes on !!!!!  Choice is a luxury but is now proving to be a pain. Today things have got more difficult. I've honed the 2 rear cylinders and they seem quite acceptable, so seals seems a reasonable choice, except ............. one of the cylinders has a broken in-cylinder spring and none of the kits I've found so far include the spring !!!!!

Then there's the master cylinder, I had decided to buy  a new unit, but today honed the old one just to see how bad it was, guess what, its nigh-on perfect !!!! So I've decided to buy a kit for that and keep a very careful eye on the reservoir plunger.

The front cylinders will, I hope, reveal their gory secrets tomorrow, probably leading to more indecision !!!!

Now there are the linings to consider. The diff. seals have failed and so the rear linings must be replaced, an easy decision at last !!!  The fronts appear very good so I'm tempted to go with those for a while, even if only to clean up the drums. There is one thing I hope someone can help me with. These linings have what appear to be, but are not, 4 rivets on  a diagonal, they a flush with the lining surface and about 8mm dia. The rivets securing the lining to the shoe are clearly visible and well below the lining surface. Attached (I hope) is a photo which shows them. NB Jim has dissociated himself totally from the abomination  in the right foreground that is the home-made modification to a puller used to remove the drums !!

In summary, I am little further forward in my decision making, does anyone have an in-cylinder spring for a rear cylinder surplus to requirements and what are those rivet-like things in the front linings ???

Your help would be gratefully appreciated.

Best wishes,
                                          Andy

When - years ago - I restored our 3rd series B20 I found that all the springs in the wheel cylinders were badly corroded. I found a small workshop that produced springs at a very reasonable price. This happened in 1980, and things may have changed a lot since. Anyway, good luck.
Niels

keep in mind to match drum curvature to the lining radius. Brake judder starts from a mismatch here.... Some folks have even added graphite plugs to the linings to lubricate the drum (an old pre-war trick).

I think I read somewhere, either in the Aurelia workshop manual (LMC edition) or an issue of Viva Lancia, that some shoes had 'carbon' type fillets inserted into the linings to aid braking. I think fitting new linings would be cost effective, just make sure the person doing the job does not use too much heat when bonding the linings. I also read somewhere of alloy shoes melting !!
I had a local place do my shoes, I think they only cost about 50 Euro for an axle set, and that was Mintex competition linings. I'm  getting a set for my new 6th series fronts for my own car in the next week or so.
The 3rd series car I'm working on at present, also has a broken return spring on one front cylinder. I'll let you know if I source a replacement.
One thing to remember on the diff seals, is that the left hand side has a left hand thread for the big castle nut. I fitted 2 seals per side (there is enough room).

Geoffrey and Kevin, I am sure you've hit the nail on the head with the carbon/graphite inserts, they have the right colour  and sheen.  Thank you for the advice to match shoe and drum diameter. My 'Aurelia Manual' shows a wonderful bit of kit for turning the linings to the correct diameter, will I get it done nowadays I wonder ??

Also, thank you for the reminder on the LH thread for the bearing seal, I would have made a mess of that !!!!

Its a little cooler and rather grey here but I must push on !!  More of the saga and pics to follow.

Many thanks for the help,

                       Andy

Andy,
My dad's got a small stock of the springs. I've pm'd you the contact details if you want some.
Neil

This is a 4th series gearbox I worked on a few years ago. Not my own. someone had tried to unscrew the bearing/seal carrier, and not realizing it was LHT had thightened it instead, cracking the casing. A machinist friend of mine fitted a ring, slightly undersize and used a little heat to lock in place. You can see the tool I made to undo the castle ring. Made from a large socket.

Have you met Tim Burret yet?   He'd be able to match linings to the drum for you and where you're at I'd suggest the sooner you meet him the better.   

Am sure Peter Harding or Omicron also.  Whatever the pretext I suggest finding a way to be "just passing" and dropping in on them as well.

David

This Forum is superb, so much help and support out there, thank you everyone who has chipped in.

Yesterday and today I've made a little more progress, tempered by a little babysitting but it didn't interfere too much (pl. don't tell my daughter where her 6week old son spent Saturday afternoon !!)

Jim has had a lovely time actually putting things back instead of cutting things out. The offside sill is now looking as though it might even support the car !!!!! The jacking point is a carbon copy of the original and the wiring loom is now supported above the bottom of the sill to give more protection and protect it from weld heat. On dismantling, it was found that 3 of the wires were fused together where the plastic insulation had been melted, presumably by the heat of the original welding process.

The nearside front brake has been dismantled and generally cleaned up. Once again I have a cylinder that seems ok but with a broken spring so one more for seals only. I really will have to keep checking and keep an eye on the fluid level. The bearing oil seal has failed but not enough to impact on the shoes so I'll replace that and run those shoes for a short while. I now have just the offside front to dismantle, I hope no horrors there.

I have dismantled the clutch, not good! At first all seemed fine and I assumed I simply needed  to reline it. However, closer examination revealed 6 radial cracks in the pressure plate (I think that's what it's called), it's part no.43 on Tav.27 of Paul Mayo's Manual. Suggestions as to where I may source a replacement please. Also, following David's philosophy, I am tempted to leave everything else that seems ok well alone, which includes the bearings. Am I being too much of an ostrich here ?? Your advice would be much appreciated.

I'll attach some photos, I can't see the cracks in the clutch plate even though I know they're there !!!

Best wishes and thanks again for the support and advice.

                   Andy

Tim would have an answer to what a clutch plate can take.  Mine had all sorts of little cracks in it that had me scared and he gave me the reassuring "they'll all like that" response.  Obviously a lot more reassuring when he's actually looking at it.  Yours might have the (using my imanation rather than this is a list of bad stuff) the "its about to explode" cracks or "when its cracked and then the rust has got in then its no good" cracks.

David

My plate also showed what looked like little cracks. I had the plate lightly skimmed, and no further problems. The only other issue was a brass ring, inside the 'top hat' section of the plate. This had worn quite a bit (the clutch bearing runs against it). I fitted a new one, and no problems.
One little thing, if you are fitting a new clutch bearing, it it meant to fit 'one way'. Be careful not to fit it the wrong way, or it will collapse.

Things change don't they!!!!!  I decided to remove the 50mm nut holding the release bearing (Jim made the 'socket'!!) and all seemed well until the bearing was removed ...... not good. What appears to be a thrust ring, part of the bearing, has disintegrated and is in 4 pieces, one of which was jammed in the bearing, although that still ran quite smoothly!!! Additionally, a loose thrust ring was found, intact but also in bad order. So, now I need a release bearing and that thrust ring and Kevin, please advise how I know which way round the bearing goes. Also Kevin, which side of the diff has the LH thread on the seal retaining ring ??
Given the state of the clutch components that I have examined to date I've decided that the ostrich option is not appropriate, so the whole lot will be stripped and bearings inspected minutely.

On a general note, is there available a schedule of torque settings for re-assembly of the car. I'm sure that many are specified for the major components, but are they published anywhere?

The attached photos show the state of the release bearing, I'm sure there will be more tales of woe (and expense) to follow.

Regards,

            Andy

...I had to replace that bearing...

I got quite quick getting the clutch in and out trying to get it to work properly.  Am trying to remember the details.  Is there a felt seal that "regulates" (eghrmmm) the oil into that bearing?  Not enough it breaks up, too much and the linings get covered.  Mine had a modern sealed bearing and a sleeve to make up the difference to the old one.  It had a ceramic "puck" plate in it for a while as well - sort of okish but gave up on it for regular linings.

David

I can't remember what exactly is written on the bearing, I think its the Italian word for 'push'. Its written on the outer ring on one side, and the inner ring on the other. The outer ring fits towards the inner part of the top hat, and the inner part faces towards the 50mm nut. I got a bearing from Cavalitto.
The LHT nut is on the left hand side of the gearbox. See my photo. Its the part that has the cast iron casting, bolted to the diff casing by 6 nuts/studs.
I once wrote an article on this for Viva Lancia some years ago. I found out the hard way, when I fitted the bearing the wrong way.....

Another memory - as well as the excess oil through the shaft to the bearing there was also an oil leak out the gearbox housing into the clutch...

At least access is a dream relative to conventional cars - and back then all in a days fun in the BWE yard.  Rent for the ramp was a run to the sandwich shop and the occasional pickup/drop off to the tube station.

David

Ahhh, David, the halcyon days of youth !!!!!

Thank you Kevin and David for your advice, always  gratefully received and appreciated.

I'll push on and meanwhile the shopping list gets longer !!!!!!!

                  Andy

Hi Andy,
Did you get my pm with the offer of the springs? I'm wondering if I sent it as I haven't got a copy in my outbox.
Cheers
Neil

While you are looking at the clutch remember to check if the plate is concave. Mine was, and it was virtually impossible to release the clutch completely because it bore on the outer circumference even with the clutch pedal fully down. If I tightened it so that it would release it slipped. 
Niels

Niels, thank you for that tip, the plate on mine is definitely not plane and with the cracking that I have found I have a horrible feeling that I am destined for a new/another clutch, I presume I will be able to get one somewhere, a phone call to Ron Francis I think !!

In the meantime I am progressing as best i can elsewhere.

Best wishes,

                 Andy

Whilst I am arranging to get the clutch to Tim and waiting to get prices for the brake cylinders seals I thought I would have a little crawl under the body and clean off the muck and underseal. What a b***** of a job that is !!!!!  To begin with a wire brush in a grinder is not suitable as the underseal is like a set tar and up to 5mm thick, so a narrow scraper has become the tool of choice. In some places a good push with the scraper results in a huge strip, complete with muck and bullets, flying off, usually into my face, whereas elsewhere the scraper stops dead and nearly breaks my wrist. I'm getting the hang of it now but it is tiring dirty work and I ache everywhere. I think lying under a car doing this is better than any workout in a gym !!!!!  The condition of the steel as it is uncovered varies tremendously, from horrendous rust to some areas where there is perfect paint and yet others where there has apparently never been any paint but the steel is in such good condition that spot welds appear as if they were done yesterday (see last photo) !!! Quite amazing.

I've still a long way to go, but can only manage about 3hrs a day and then have to move onto something a little less strenuous.

That's it for now, time for a little refresher !!

                  Andy

A heat gun should speed things up for you. A few seconds to get it soft then it should peel off pretty easily. Wear gloves, goggles and have a bucket of water handy!

Thank you for that Neil, I'll try it as soon as I can get my heat gun back from my son. I've been helping to rebuild his house as well as lime plastering a Welsh longhouse in N Wales in between the work on the Lancias. I must say that after 40yrs of design and supervision of works it is so satisfying to actually be doing the work and to see the results of my own efforts (although I must admit that sometimes I have to have more than one stab at some things !!!!!).

Best wishes,

                Andy

Well, Jim came round to see what he could play with ......... he decided the area to the rear of the offside wheel arch deserved attention and, of course, out came the cutting disc !!! The photos show the result. Basically, once again we've got off lightly, a lot of bare steel, a lot of rust and a small amount of paint !!  How the bare steel has survived when the bottom of the section has rusted through I do not understand, but am exceedingly grateful !! The whole area was cleaned up, the necessary repair pieces made, welded in then the whole area was painted and seam sealed. It's so easy to write but a considerable amount of work. I love the curved swage in the bottom panel, Jim apologised as he thought it was a tad longer than the original, although as almost all of that was rusted out I don't know how he knew.

The photo of the inside of the panel cut out to gain access to the area clearly shows how well the individual pieces that make up the section fit together, I wonder if all the other panels were cut as fitted as accurately ??

Further up-dates in due course,

                               Andy

Time marches on and a little more gets done.

I'll soon be in possession of a pair of front wheel cylinders, repair kits for the master cylinder, the rear cylinders and the reservoir, which was a devil to get apart, so reassemby of the brake system should be underway soon. Also I'll be getting my hands on a gasket and seal set for the transaxle assembly so that should be back together soon, with the exception of the clutch which is still an unknown.

With regard to the body its more of the same, repair one bit,find two more heavily corroded areas !!! This weekend it was the turn of the off-side front wheel arch. First appearances, as ever, were deceptive. We knew the bottom of the inner wing at the rear was a mess but thought the remainder was not too bad. However, clearing off the muck and underseal revealed the appalling way in which the car was put together. The rear panel of the inner wheel arch was attached to the inner fore and aft panel with blobs of weld  maybe 6-10mm long at, say, 60mm ccs. A similar state of affairs prevailed where the panel was attached to the outer wing panel (just forward of the A pillar). The top and top outer edge of the panel was not attached in any way bit simply butted up to the top panel with a U shaped plastic strip slipped over the panel edge.

I'm sure this is the original construction and the top of the panel butting up to the body is by design, but can anyone advise why it was done this way ?

Anyway, we decided to cut through the blobs of weld, about 16 of them altogether, and removed the panel in order to deal with any problems in the void behind. It seems the back of the removed panel has never had so much as a coat of paint and it is amazing that it has survived and will actually, after cleaning, painting and protecting, be welded back in. The exposed inner faces exposed by this exercise are similarly rusted but again, will only need a suitable paint and protection system. I will drill and plug the back face of the A pillar (which will subsequently be hidden by the alloy trim) to allow copious amounts of Waxoyl to be squirted everywhere. Hopefully this prevent further problems.

The first photo shows the inside, exposed face of the removed panel, the second shows the hidden back face after the wire brush in an angle grinder treatment and the third shows the void which needs much more attention before the paint etc. may be applied.

Hopefully we'll soon get this side finished and then we'll go over and attack the near-side, with the benefit of experience to help. However, I am not looking forward to the challenges of the front, there doesn't seem to be much of the bottom 6" of the panels between the side lights and there will be a lot to do around the grille opening, parts of which seem to be multi-skinned and badly corroded. How bad it actually is, only time will tell !!!!

Time to get a cuppa and put my feet up, more to follow .... sometime!!

                       Andy

PS Neil, your tip on the use of a heatgun to assist in underseal removal is a winner, thank you.

My own B20 underseal stripping adventure has also been eased by Neil's advice.  Heat does really help with the removal of the main sections of the bituminous underseal applied to the car when new (I assume, as it's under - read, above - the fuel tank).  The thin strips of material that remain are easily dealt with using a wire brush and a high speed drill.

Heat guns and petrol tanks don't mix! I once had to photograph the remains of a fume cupboard in which a scientist had used a heat gun to evaporate some solvent. There wasn't much left of it!

What was his speciality? The Big Bang Theory  :D

Brian
8227 8)

Don't worry - fuel tank was bone dry...

Boom!

Good point though.

Apologies for the long intermission, much has happened on many different fronts, but the good news is that work on the B20 has continued, really without a break. Jim has been the perpetrator, I seem to have found other things getting in the way, mostly not good (emergency appendectomy for example) but other things have been excellent, bought an Appia and have eventually limewashed that lounge in N Wales !!!!

I've not got the energy to describe Jim's endeavours since my last post, but I will fill in the gaps (as Jim has had to do in numerous locations on the of the car)  in due course.

The main reason for this post is to show a few photos of my new toy, its a little crude but definitely seems to do the intended job, that is to lift and rotate the shell, not the whole car, it is definitely not robust enough for that. My car is a shell plus fixed glass plus the steering column and the jig seems to cope well enough with that load. However I would not want to go much above that. It is a little late in the day for this purchase, at least so far as the welding is concerned, but having the underside presented in the vertical plane and at a sensible level will make the cleaning/rust removal/aplication of protective layers a relatively easy and (more importantly) will I hope allow for a thorough job.

The photos show the inaugural launch yesterday, Jim has texted today to say that it has not fallen over or collapsed in the night, so we'll call that a success !!!!!!!!  I'll be more than happy to provide manufacturer details once I've addressed any foibles, but I think that it will swiftly prove to be one of my best kit buys yet.  We will see ...........

                           Andy

 

As much as anything its interesting to see one from those angles - and as you say a much better chance of getting the job done completely and correctly.

David

I had the opportunity yesterday to take a few more photographs, fortunately we don't get to see too many Aurelias at this angle, but doesn't it look wonderfully aggressive!!

More to follow, soon I hope.

               Andy

Looks like a jolly useful piece of kit Andy. Can I borrow it when you have finished the Aurelia---That is assuming Jim comes too!!

That goes without saying and yes, I'll throw Jim in with the package as well !!!!!!!!!!!

We are still trying to find the exact balance point for the shell when mounted on the jig and are hoping that modifying the attachment brackets will do the job. We  hope to have a go at it in a week or so, I'll keep posting as I think it is a really useful bit of kit and with that problem sorted will be so easy to use. The price was also very realistic !!!!!

Best wishes,

                  Andy

PS I hope I'm not too close to Jim when he sees this post !!!

Leave it as it is and put it in the Goodwood sculpture park for a few hundred thousand quid.

Pure art in that setting!

Tim

Some years ago Practical Classics magazine included plans to build a similar piece of kit using a pair of builders bandstands. Jonathan and I started but never finished the project although it appeared to have great potential.

Robin.

Robin, I remember that well and was sorely tempted, but was still a working man then.

Before I bought this, I did a lot of research on the web and there are numerous companies selling sophisticated bits of kit at, typically, £800, but also there are many people who have posted designs, including fully dimensioned drawings, for DIY versions. It seems all you need are the time and skills to carry out the work.

                    Andy

Well, today saw the rotisserie foibles sorted !!!!!

I am now happy that we have satisfactorily dealt with the balance issue. The trick is to get the CoG of the shell level with the axis of rotation. If that can be achieved then, assuming the shell is symmetrical in the vertical plane, the only loads applied to the jig will be vertical loads directed through the points of rotation. Then the  mechanism that locks the shell in position will carry only the live-loads that are applied whilst working on the shell, eg when pushing on the shell when grinding or wirebrushing.  If it is not possible to align the CoG with the axis of rotation, then asymmetric loads are applied to the jig with one leg being loaded more than the other and the locking mechanism will carry dead-loads from the out-of-balance shell in addition to  any normal live-loads. Rotating the shell will also require caution to ensure that it is always under control and will not suddenly flip over of its own accord.

The problem to be overcome was that the CoG of the shell was too high relative to the axis of rotation. This was in part caused by the screens and the steering column still being on the shell. Simply removing them would improve the situation. The column came out easily enough (all the wiring was photographed and tagged) and the screens eventually succumbed (see separate thread). This alone was not enough and Jim fabricated brackets to increase the distance between the rotation axis and the points of attachment of the jig to the shell, in this case the bumper mountings. This has the effect of bringing the high CoG closer to the rotation axis. We did not know how much we would need to lower the shell, hence the multiple drilling of the drop arms !!!!

To cut a long story short, it worked, the first photos show the shell at all angles whilst the last one shows one of the brackets Jim made to drop the shell. By chance we got it right first time, the drop is 125mm approx.  It is now a one handed operation, with minimal effort, to flip the shell to any required angle where it may be locked in position.

I wanted to ensure that it was possible to adjust the jig to provide this standard of operation before passing on the details.

So, here are the details ...........

                                               They are available from 'mk2mania', a company that specialises in work on Mk2 Escorts, especially for the rally scene, web address, www.mk2mania.co.uk. The model is the 'de luxe rotator' and the price, a very reasonable £240 plus £40 delivery incl VAT.    They will not provide the brackets to attach the shell to the jig, but these may be readily fabricated by a competent welder. Obviously the mounting points on the shell will need to be structurally sound !!

I have no link with the company, but suggest that if you think it might help with work on your car, do have a look at their website, especially the youtube clip showing it in use and do check the caveat as to its use.

                         Andy

Having that level of access has anything else shown up on the shell? 

Any creaks and groans as it spins or seems very much "of a piece"?

David

David, I'm glad to report the only creaks and groans were from me, mainly due to age !!!!

Seriously, the whole shell is now very solid, but Jim has done a huge amount of work. I believe that serious consideration needs to be given to the condition of the shell before it is put on a jig like this. I would not have wanted to see mine on this before the sills and floor pan were done, but all the work on the rear spring hanger locations, around the lights, the front valance etc would have been so much easier if we'd had this. Maybe some would think that the sills could be done on the jig once the bracing in the door openings was in place, but I'm something of a coward when it comes to these things !!!!

Best wishes,

                  Andy

Just a quick up-date on progress .......... the rotisserie is really proving its worth, both in terms of ease of access to parts that previously were almost impossible to access and also to check on work previously carried out. Jim is, to say the least, rigorous in the manner in which he works, but even he has found areas that were thought to be complete, but, literally, in the full light of day with the underside fully exposed, have found to needing a little more attention. I now understand how work that I have carried out on other cars and thought to be 100% has subsequently not lasted as would have been expected. It is simply that access is everything.

Well, there is now not a trace of underseal on the underside and the whole floor pan has been wire-brushed back to bare metal except for the nooks and crannies which I am tackling methodically with a variety of wire brushes in a small electric drill. An angle grinder with a wire brush is a very powerful tool, but rather cumbersome hence the smaller tools for  those difficult to reach areas. When that is complete the two front wheel arches will need to be taken back to bare metal ............ all in all a huge amount of work, but something that cannot be rushed or skimped and needs to be done thoroughly. I think if I were to take on another project I would investigate the possibility of having the body blasted  professionally and etch primed, as by Chugga and others 

Yesterday the front section of the prop shaft was removed, complete with the bearing assembly. Today the pedal assembly was removed, degreased and cleaned in Gunk and generally fettled. Considering that it is located behind a protective cowl it really  was in appalling condition, but now looks and operates like new.

Jim is generally tidying up the underside, finishing off bits and pieces that are now apparent, grinding welds back and etc before we get to the last major element, welding in the sills made by Bill Lewis, We know they are a perfect fit, the major work will come in 'blending them in' to the wheel arches.

Of course, as Jim delighted in telling me, I still have to take the interior of the floor back to bare metal ... but that won't be some time soon !!!!

More to follow as and when I am allowed to go out to play ............

                                   Andy

The peddles must have been a treat after all the sheet metal.

David

You are absolutely right David. A real treat to get hold of something solid, covered in grease and with bits that moved and worked. I am much more at home with the mechanicals than the sheet metal bits. Fortunately Jim doesn't like getting greasy, but does enjoy beating hell out of flat sheet to make beautiful curves, something I am totally incapable of !!!

                              Andy

Doing all that wire brushing my tip is the best ear defenders you can find (these are the ones I got) and an IPod.  I found regular defenders only let me listen to music (and I'd still go crazy...) while with these I can listen to speech and there's the world of fantastic podcasts out there.   They've almost made that kind of chore a pleasure, for sure I want to keep going until whatever I'm listening to has ended rather than being desperate to quit for ANOTHER cuppa.

http://www.handheldaudio.co.uk/pages/catalog.asp?divitype=t&tp_id=112&root_name=Hearing+Protection&pic=

David

Andy, thank you, loved the read and slow embryonic-like development of your phoenix like B20!

PM in your inbox!

P

Well, I've been very lax with keeping this thread up-to-date, but fortunately things have been progressing in the workshop even though they haven't been reported !!!

The shell is now structurally complete, fully welded and ready for the paint-shop, once the remainder of the paint, rust, underseal and general crud has been removed from the underside and from within the shell. Jim says all of that is my job, I cannot repeat what I said to Jim !!! Cleaning off the main areas is not too bad, the problem lies in cleaning up the areas which a wire wheel on the angle grinder cannot reach. I am hoping a spot blaster will do the trick, does anyone have any suggestions for a suitable blast medium please?

We have been pushing on with other bits, the de Dion had been stripped, the shock absorbers are in good condition and appear to function correctly so they will be left alone, at least for the moment!!  The springs have been disassembled and I am 3/4 of the way through cleaning those, a ridiculously noisy and messy job!! So far I've used 4 wire wheels and blown up one angle grinder!! Jim is making new rivets and the tubular spacers for the brackets and, fortunately, both the special bolts holding the leaves together came out in re-usable condition. Hopefully they will be reassembled in the next couple of weeks, assuming I can obtain the interleaving.

We are now 4 days into refurbishing the left side door, it is fully stripped, a new double skin perforated stiffening member has been made, but there is still much to do, I left Jim repairing the diagonal tubular braces.

One thing that has pleased me through this part of the work is the discovery of build numbers stamped on the various elements of the body. The boot floor has 14625 stamped on it whilst both doors, the bootlid and the bonnet has 625 stamped on them. It would appear that the car has all the original matching elements and, as there was no sign of accident damage to the shell, it seems the car has never been involved in an accident!! I was surprised, until I thought about the amount of use it has had. The first 8 years in Italy presumably totted up some mileage, the next 7 years in the UK might well have seen reasonable use, but the next owner, from whom I bought the car, I know did few miles, as did I, until its incarceration in the mid seventies. At this point I decided to check the odometer, just over 51000km !!!  Bearing in mind the above analysis, this could be correct. I hope the engine rebuild will be able to confirm this.   

So, that's where we are at the moment, more will follow, hopefully with photographs. I really must decide on a colour, soon!!

                                          Andy

Great to hear of the steady progress Andy and no other surprises.

Keep up the good work and looking forward to the pics.


P

Great to hear of the progress.

My vote is still black - a colour I never OTHERWISE like on a car.

David

Looks fab in black too......but some of the pastels are gorgeous too.....


P

A link from another thread - it starts dark red and ends up in black - as yours WILL  ;)

http://www.crescia-sa.ch/index.php/restauration/lancia/aurelia-b20-s1954-4eme-serie-avant-rest.html?start=100

Andy, here's another 4th series (presumably - supposed to be a '54 car, has the central reversing light) looking very crisp in black.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pontfire/6904756339/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pontfire/6904756339/in/photostream/)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6VMJEp306PY/T0FmsZc0T-I/AAAAAAAAB7s/2y2sKTrB1S4/s720/1.jpg)

DROOL  DROOL  ::) ::)

One handsome car....in northern France it seems, or just the photographer?


P

Well, unfortunately I've continued to be lax in reporting progress although progress there has been!!

I am appalled that the last real progress photos were over 18mths ago, although general views have been posted of the shell on the rotisserie and also a verbal update was posted some 6mths ago.

So, I'll try to provide a further report, hopefully with photographs.

Picking up on the January post, I have yet to tackle the cleaning of the floor pan etc, both inside and out and am still hopeful someone can suggest a suitable blast medium for my little spot blaster. With regard to the rear springs, they have now been completely cleaned and painted. I went to see Ron Francis a few days ago and bought inter alia a 10m roll of spring interleaving, one side requires 6.5m (with no allowance for wastage) but fortunately Elizabeth at Omicron has come up with the balance for the 2nd side so hopefully I'll have both springs completed shortly.

Ok, back to the bodywork, Jim has now completed refurbishment of the doors. Both required a new stiffening strip but the RHS did not need work to the diagonal braces. The door skins were generally in good condition, but a strip  some 50mm wide had to be replaced on the leading, rear and bottom edges where the double skin construction had caused problems. There are a lot, an awful lot, of spot welds used in the fabrication, Jim is now well practised at drilling out spot welds, he has a lot to thank me for!!!! The channels holding the glass were next to receive attention, the RHS simply needed tidying, it had been replaced previously but rather crudely. The LHS channel had to be replaced in its entirety.  Next came the bootlid, same problem as with the door skin and same action, more spot welds drilled out and repair strips seam welded back in, spot welded to the frame and beaten to shape. Bonnet next and guess what, same problem!!! Jim says there are a mere 160 spot welds used to hold the bonnet skin to the frame, but he's now an expert so no problem. This repair should be finished next week and then we are down to checking, tidying and cleaning up and that is the bodywork repairs completed !!!!!!!

I think that is in the order of 27mths of work averaging out, for Jim, as 1 day per week. I consider that to be an excellent result given the state of the car  and the other stuff I have thrown into the mix for him to complete in the meantime!!!

The problem that I now have is that Jim is really enjoying himself in telling me how much work I have to do before I can have the shell sufficiently mobile to go to the spray shop !!!!

That brings me to the body colour, this was the subject of a separate thread an I am grateful to everyone who threw in  their twopenn'orth.  The outcome is that I have decided to go for black, see the recent posts from William, David and Parisien, I really didn't have much alternative in the end, especially as Jim instructed me that 'original colour is the only choice'!!!!!

So, now simply complete cleaning the shell, inside and out, rebuild front and rear axles sufficient to have a rolling shell and then off to the spray shop, doesn't sound a lot if you say it quickly.

I'll now try for some photographs, hopefully in chronological order.

The first shows the front bumper mounts, these were repaired before the shell went on the rotisserie !!!  Then we have views under the front wheel arch showing the amount of metal/rust that was cut out, both air intake boxes were rebuilt and the lower part of the front valance replaced. Then inner wheel arch repairs and finally, spotlight housings were significantly rebuilt.

More photographs to follow.

                             Andy

Wonderful Andy, great to see how its all coming together and seeing Jims artwork, lovely to behold

My guy has gotten delayed on starting my project, hoping to move it on as soon as!


P

More photographs ....

1) Underside showing the new floor section, extreme left hand side. In the bottom right hand corner is the cut-out for the Nardi gear change, suitably reinforced after finding splits around the original !!
2) Underside, front left hand side
3) Underside above the transaxle and petrol tank. Repairs to the rear spring hangers have been completed.
4) Underside partway through cleaning the floor pan. The outer panels of the floor pan have been fabricated and fitted by Jim.
5) Underside showing repairs to the front valance. The rear of the front wheel arch has been cut away and is yet to be replaced. Incidentally, the front valance repairs included replacement of one end of the tube on which the steering box is mounted. This had rusted away completely allowing the steering box a large degree of movement. Not conducive to positive steering response !!

More to follow.

Best wishes,
         
               Andy

More !!

1) RHS outer sill (made by Bill Lewis) spot welded in (as the original) complete with Jim's panels to tie it in with the rear of the front wheel arch.
2) As previous photo.
3) As previous photos but LHS.
4) As previous photo.
5) As previous photo.
6) As previous photo but front LHS.
7) As previous photo.

There are more  yet !!!

Best wishes,

                Andy

OOPS !!!!  Photographs 5 and 6 in the previous post are the same. Photo 6 should have been this ........

Sorry about that, more photos (and probably cock-ups) to follow.

                         Andy

Here we are again ...

1) Front inner wing showing the Berlina shell, crudely beaten and re-shaped to accept the Pininfarina B20 body. This, I am told, is how they left the PF works.
2) As above
3) Rear spring mid dismantling. G clamps are in place to secure the spring leaves and allow controlled removal of the central bolt and the spring leaf clamps. The central bolt has been replaced with a length of studding to control energy release after the G clamps have been removed and when separating the leaves. NB Look at those shiny new silentbloc bushes !!
4) There is quite a way to go before tension comes off the studding.
5) The spring leaves released and separated.
6) The interleaving was past its best.

Yet more to follow, hope this isn't getting boring.

                      Andy

Andy, its like being at the Leonardo DaVinci exhibition all over again.....works of art....:)

Post up as many as you want!


P

I'm struggling to get all this fancy electronic gear to post a few photos. I'm sure you will appreciate that it is not a fault on my part but a failure of the equipment !!!

This is the 3rd attempt to post the missing 5 photographs. If it doesn't work this time then I'm going to bed (with a large brandy!!!)

                         Andy

Thanks Parisien, I'm glad you are enjoying them.

 I have photographs of the bootlid refurbishment ready to post, but none for the doors or the bonnet. They will come in due course.

 Hope you are able to get things underway on your car in the near future.

Best wishes,

                Andy

Fascinating !!

David

And now its boot lid time !!!!!

At first glance the boot lid seemed not too bad with some unevenness around the edges with a couple of small areas of corrosion. However, it is a certainty on a restoration job that a wire brush in an angle grinder will reveal much worse and so it did!!! Construction is a curved skin spot welded to a pressed steel frame. Jim tells me that there are/were in the order of 160 spot weld holding these two components together and he drilled out every one of them. The frame was not too bad except the bottom section which had to be cut off and repaired before being welded back in.  The skin itself was ok except that around the whole periphery a 50mm wide strip had rusted where it was double skinned with the frame. This strip was cut off and new metal seam welded in, then spot welded back onto the frame. I must check that Jim used at least 160 spot welds!!!

I was pleasantly surprised to find only one small area of accident damage, about 100mm diameter, which had been beaten out and lightly filled. Jim fettled it to reduce the amount of filler required.

Photographs.

1) Bottom edge ... spot welds drilled out and the frame cut away to facilitate repair.
2) Showing the worst of the rust on the bottom edge.
3) The repaired frame ready for the skin.
4) The skin under repair. The 50mm wide repair strip has been seam welded to both sides and the bottom edge, the top edge is ready for the same treatment.

Photographs of the doors and bonnet are in the pipeline ...

                                 Andy

Totally out of the chronological order, these three photographs show some of the sill and wheel arch problems/repairs. They were taken in September 2010. Days of innocence before becoming aware of the rear spring hanger problems and the challenges of the front valance and areas around the fog lights etc!!

                  Andy

Am remembering my foglight surrounds and bumper irons.  Thankfully someone else had done all the sills and floors.  The bootlid I lived with and seeing what it REALLY takes to make one good am happy it was the right call.  Back then I was just wanting it on the road, I guess you having waited 40 years to get started there's a different attitude!!

Thinking about it the boot lid SKIN was alloy - those must "just" be wrapped over the frame...

One question you never need to ask with an Aurelia is "I wonder if there's a better boot lid out there to start from" as you KNOW it won't fit.  I got another grill and it must have been half an inch out in places.  I used to know how much different left and right doors were in length.

Keep at it !!   At least keep making the tea for Jim...

David

Making tea is all that Jim allows me to do .............. having seen me take a panel beaters hammer to a wing!!!!!!!!!!! And as to his comments when I was found with the shrinker/stretcher ..........

                       Andy

Great stuff Andy (and Jim), thanks for posting.

Good choice on the colour front  :).

All very impressive and I am enjoying following this too.

Just a thought, which I hope is not a worrying one – the foglight surrounds look to be circular! If you are intending to fit original Carello lights, they should be elliptical. I know of at least one B20 that had the front modified to take round Lucas spot lights, which required serious work by a subsequent owner who wanted to put it back to original. I hope I am wrong!

Keep it up,

Colin   

Andy

What a project! Think of the thrill when it hits the road. You're so lucky to have the time, space and help.

Andy, That’s a relief!

Just to show that it can happen – here’s a photo of a part restored 4th Series B20 that had been expertly modified years earlier to take Lucas round spot-lights and ‘hooded’ Lucas headlamps. Such things were done when B20s cost peanuts and few people cared about originality. Nothing to do with me guvnor!

The car went back to Italy in pieces and was rebuilt back to original spec. Sorry, but the seats went with it!

Colin

OK, I give up .......... how does the dynamo come off a B20 engine (without using a big hammer !!!).

I decided the time has come to try to pick off some of the peripheral bits. The dynamo and starter are the first to get this treatment because the excellent auto electric whizz that I found has announced his retirement, bloody inconsiderate if you ask me !!! Seriously, he did a magnificent job rebuilding the starter from the Appia and he is retiring, but has said he will continue to 'potter in a little workshop at home' rebuilding components etc. Carpe diem comes to mind .. hence the need to remove the dynamo.

I have removed the pulley and undone the near vertical hollow bolt through the engine casting on the left side of the dynamo which leaves a 3 or 4mm dia pin projecting from the bolt hole. This pin appears immoveable, at least without using a large hammer and I'm not that desperate ........ yet !!  I then squirted copious amounts of Plus Gas along the interface of the engine casting and dynamo body and, using a piece of wood as a drift, I tapped the screw eye on the underside of the dynamo body to try to rotate the whole in the engine casting. It was only a small hammer and I did not hit it hard as I was acting in ignorance !!!!!  Not unusual !!! Absolutely nothing.

So, the time has come to seek advice, I do not want to act in haste and damage something when, I am sure, there many many people out there who would be able to do this little job in their sleep.  Help please ..

                                     Andy

Andy, attached is a photo of the locking nut and the wedge that it holds in place. You need to loosen the wedge, then the dynamo should rotate and you will be able to withdraw the dynamo from the engine casing. Of course it will be all seized up!!!  good luck!

Thank you for this and the photo is invaluable.

The hole has been full of Plus Gas for 3 days now and I have tried to move the pin, a bit of waggling and try to rotate it but to no avail so far. Perseverance is required !!! I will try again.

                           Andy

                     

I just love this Forum, without it I would have given up years ago !!!!!

Well Ade, having seen the size and shape of the pin/wedge to  be removed I went back today armed with fresh resolve. Of course my attempts to rotate the pin/wedge had been a waste of time and effort, it cannot rotate and a straight lift is the only solution. Thank goodness your photo shows the hole at the top of the pin, it was to be the focus of my attack. I had not realised there was a hole, the one in mine was totally clogged with a sheared split pin and grease

So, the  plan .... put lifting pin through hole, lever against pin, lift out pin/wedge !!! Simples !!

Turn of events... squirt Plus Gas everywhere, again.
                        find hole and clean it out
                        find nail that fits the hole to use as lifting pin
                        find something to use as lever, inspiration, long nose pliers, tapered shape allows snug fit, good lever arm, equal load to both sides of nail.
                        find pliers, position, apply load, shear nail .... oh dear
                        find drill bit that fits hole
                        position pliers, apply load AND OUT COMES THE PIN/WEDGE

An absolute dream !!! Time taken from start to shearing nail, about 45mins. Time taken from finding drill bit to extracting pin/wedge, about 3mins. Of course the dynamo then slides out to the rear without any problem. NB the pulley had previously been removed.

So now its off to friendly auto electrician to have it and the starter motor checked and repaired as necessary.

Once again Ade, thank you for your post that made the task so simple.

Best wishes,

                Andy

Hooray!!

David

Jim's comment, why not put the hollow nut back on, put in the drill bit and then undo the hollow nut? That will lift it out smoothly. He's knows too much that man !!!!  Of course, that would have been a better and more controlled way of doing it. I just hope that I will not need to remove a dynamo again, but if I do ..........

                       Andy

It has all been a matter of bits and pieces of late. The rear springs have been re-assembled and require only the clamp rivets and their  spacers before being totally  complete.

This brought the rest of the rear axle to the forefront, off came the Panhard rod and, no surprise the Silentbloc bushes are completely shot. Another trawl on the internet revealed a company called Robush which carries a huge range of Silentbloc bushes. They listed some that had the correct ID and OD but were too long, another little job for Jim and his lathe !!!!  The great news was, £5 each plus £5 P&P. I thought that was good. They have arrived and are with Jim to allow him to make the removal/insertion tool.

Next to receive attention, hub assemblies. One side at a time so there was always a complete unit to view for re-assembly. Two special tools are required to allow the bearing securing rings to be removed, but I decided to try the good old hammer and drift method. Using an alloy drift ensured minimal damage to the rings. First attempt on the left side inner ring was futile. A look at the parts book (thank you Huib) revealed that the spring circlips that lock the inner rings are handed, thus a reasonable assumption that the thread on the rings are handed. Left hand side, left hand thread, armed with that knowledge another attempt and off came the ring without any trouble at all. Now the outer ring, check the parts book, both circlips are the same, off came the outer ring with the same hammer and drift. However, it was still trapped between the bearing and the hub. Now to remove the bearing!!! Jim (good ol' Jim) had made a bearing splitter/removal tool that was just big enough to deal with these big boys. The bearing came off in several pieces, not what I had expected, but without damage and was subsequently re-assembled. The inside lip of the oil seal was hard and cracked whilst the bearing itself, which had felt rough and damaged, on re-assembly, ran and felt as smooth as new. Notwithstanding that, it will be replaced, after all, the car has stood without moving for so long that some damage to the wheel bearings is inevitable.

We decided, even at this stage, to make the special tools to deal with the inner and outer rings, although one side had been successfully dismantled there still remained the right hand side to dismantle and final re-assembly of both sides. A 'C' spanner has been made to deal with the outer ring,  but the ring is so tight it has, to date, resisted all my efforts, even with a 1m extension tube to increase the leverage. Tomorrow will see the heat and shock treatment. Hopefully Jim will find the time to make the tool for the inner ring ring over the coming week  and by this time next week the hub will be totally disassembled.

So, the question now is, where can I buy new bearings and oil  seals ???

An update soon I hope.

                                 Andy

http://www.oldlanciaspares.com/aurelia_eng/trasmissione.php

Rear bearings


Ask about the seals....


P

What size should they be? I have a few odd ones - and you never know, I could have the correct ones. The new ones I bought for the Augusta steering are mad of much "stiffer" rubber than old ones, which make the steering heavier, as they don't allow as much rotation as is really required. I'm thinking of having some softer rubber ones made. Hills Rubber Company in Reading will probably make them.
 Regards, John

This page of Lancia bearings from my old 1959 SKF catalogue might be of some help. Lists the modern SKF bearing numbers, were there is an equivalent, which you can probably get locally.
Noel

Thats very useful Noel, hoping to put it to good use during the rebuild. So everything listed will correspond to a modern part number of another make or is SKF still on the go?


P

Just over 20 years ago when I needed such a bearing they were completely unobtainable as new items from all the usual stockists. I was lucky and was able to buy a new/unused RIV one (from Tim Burrett I think). The alternative then was to have an old bearing rebuilt with freshly ground grooves and larger balls. My local bearing supplier (sadly now closed down) could have had this done for about the same price as the unobtainable new one. This might still be an option if you can find a good old fashioned supplier.

Colin

Another source is Classic Lancia in Holland - http://www.classiclancia.com/car-parts/index.php?route=product%2Fsearch&keyword=aurelia&category_id=0&description=on - they are not cheap but their stuff is very good.  I got new rear hub bearings for my Flaminia from them at a not unreasonable price.

Great site, they stock a few B12 items have emailed them


P

Said they didn't have anything for a B12....but I've had to contradict them!!!!


;)


P

To quote the late Ronnie Barker in Open All Hours, 'It's been a funny sort of a day ....'

We continued attacking the engine peripherals, I had already removed the cover plate and sprung retaining clip from the front of the fan and Jim had made the tool to remove the retaining ring to expose the pair of bearings in the fan. So, off came the water pump, it was separated from the fan which was then heated to help release the bearings. The circlip was both a surprise and reluctant to shift, but we prevailed and whole has been dismantled and cleaned. The rear casting, adjacent to where the impeller turns, regrettably has been damaged but, unless a replacement can be sourced at a reasonable cost, a repair will be attempted. Two new bearings have been ordered and we should have it rebuilt soon.

In the meantime, Jim is making the spanner to remove the inner retaining ring for the rear wheel bearing which will allow the right hand hub to be fully dismantled. The outer retaining ring finally succumbed to heat (a lot of heat) and a drift with a big hammer. Two of the lugs have been damaged but will be built up with weld and filed to the original profile. I will use Jim's C spanner when the hubs are re-built as I feel the ring need not be that tight.

With regard to the Panhard rod silentbloc bushes, the tool made for the Appia rear spring bushes is mis-sized by about Imm but an easy fix (said Jim). So, hopefully not too long before that is re-furbished.

Rear wheel bearings, thank you everyone who has suggested suppliers and options. I have obtained prices and it looks like Enrico at Cavalitto will be the chosen supplier, the oil seals should be available off the shelf in the UK.

The day ended on a high when I just saved the vacuum cleaner from going up in flames. Jim was extremely rude, all I did was drop the hose into a tub of Gunk while it was still sucking .... it could happen to anyone !!!

A small present from Jim, he has made 2 saddles for the trolley jacks, short (150mm) sections of channel of a suitable width with an appropriate 'pin', to replace the standard saddle. One for use when jacking under de Dion tube of the B20 and the other for the front axle beam of the B20 and the Appia, surprisingly these are the same width.

That's where we are at the moment, cleaning and priming the underside continues in between these other activities, variety is the spice ....

More to follow soon.

                    Andy

I love stuff like those saddles - a pleasure every time when jacking up is the sort of job that's usually a nervous chore. 

David

I have just realised that I had not given a credit for the jack saddles. 

Peter Harding was kind enough to give me the tip a couple of years ago. I had kept it in the back of my mind, always meaning to act. The prod came when I was jacking the front of the Appia, I was checking, as I always do, that the saddle was accurately positioned under the axle before taking the full weight of the car. To my horror I discovered that the saddle was actually under the crankcase. On the Appia the front axle is quite close to the crankcase and on this occasion I had misjudged it !!  That was a mistake I did not intend to make again, hence the request to Jim to make the bespoke saddles.  Thank you Peter.

                      Andy

Plus on the Aurelia, you run the risk of catching the steering arm with the lever of a trolly jack. The front of the sump is quite close as well to the axle.

It's that damned right hand rear wheel bearing that has been giving me the latest problems !!!!!

On 2nd Sept I said I hoped to have the right hand hub disassembled within a week,  on 10th Sept the tool was still not ready and now, the tool has been made but to no avail !!!!!!!! The photos tell the story, Jim made an extremely accurate tool that picks up the bearing retaining ring at every indent and it is very robust (well it is now!!).  We started off with a 700mm lever and were rather surprised when it did not move (given our experience with the same ring on the left side). A 1.2m lever was no better, heat didn't help, neither did  hitting it with a big hammer (Jim says that is simply to get its attention) which usually shocks things into submission. However, a lot of heat, a lot of getting its attention and the 1.2m lever got a result. The 1/2inch square hole in the 6mm plate that closed the end of the tool was now approximating to a circular hole, the steel had simply sheared, the jaws of the  1/2inch drive bar had opened up and its high tensile steel swivel pin had sheared. Put simply, we broke the tool and the ring showed no sign of shifting. Next step, cut down a large socket, weld it to the tool to provide a new 1/2 inch drive, yet more heat, yet more getting its attention (now with a 3lb hammer), a new drive bar and up the lever length to 1.5m. Result, the tool didn't break but Jim and I gave up in disgust, absolutely knackered and the ring did even show any sign of even thinking about moving !!!!!!!!

Next step is tomorrow attack it with a 3/4inch drive impact wrench, I will update progress as and when !!!

Photos will be in a separate post.

                          Andy

Andy

Not sure I can see the problem without photos but I had a "similar" problem trying to get the inner race of the front stub axle of my Gamma.

As it was separated from the car I took it to my friendly machine shop who ground it almost off then hit it with a cold chisel and it popped off.. The retaining ring on the hub carrier carrying the bearing was another matter entirely for them needing a 2m pole, heat and more time than they had thought for their "standard hour" they charge to replace wheel bearings. Anyway my Rosie is now silent on the roads....

Tim

Any possibility that it's a left hand thread and you're trying to tighten it inadvertently?

Just a thought!

Guy

Tim, for the record, Lancia were kind enough to put two small holes through the stub axle of the Gamma so that removing the inner race is simply a matter of sticking a drift into each hole in turn and giving it a couple of taps and off drops the inner race (everyone loves a clever disk eh!!!). Beta is the same but nor the Delta as I recall.

Charles - must admit I didnt see any cunning holes - will look next time, albeit I could never have got the retaining ring off so to get the lot done for £33.60 I felt was good value.

Tim

Guy, thank you for the thought, it had occurred to me, but there is no reason for it to be a left hand thread. However, we did give it a quick try that way just in case, after all, the maximum effort required in these matters is usually just to break the 'seal' that tends to build up between components over the years and sometimes tightening does that more easily.

Tim, its the retaining ring in the hub carrier that is the problem, just as your chaps found. We have only a butane blowtorch, not oxy-acetylene so cannot do a 'proper' job when it comes to heating. Your £33.60 was well spent !!!!

Anyway, I am delighted to say that it is off !!!! Great relief. 5mins with the 1/2inch air impact wrench followed by 5mins with the 3/4 wrench and then a further 5mins with the 1/2 in and it slowly and very reluctantly started to move. There was no sign of corrosion on the threads, so I don't know what the problem was, but its not a problem now!!!! Jim's magnificent bearing puller eased the bearing off, it is in very poor condition and new ones will be ordered, probably from Classiclancia, although Enrico is 'in with a shout'.

Front wheel bearings have been stripped out and will be replaced although they were done some 3000 mls ago, but then it stood for decades and that point loading from one, or maybe two balls, on the races causes terminal problems that usually show up just a few hundred miles later.

I'm sorry about the continued lack of photos but I have to find a way of re-sizing them. They are currently 1.2mbytes and the limit is 1.0, the help desk should arrive soon !!!

                                   Andy

I have one photo that should give some idea of the effort put into the rear wheel bearings.

The de Dion (in primer) is on the floor and the two 1.5m levers are there to see, this was one of the many abortive efforts !!!

The shell is on  the left on its side, the underside is in primer (well, most of it is) with seam sealer providing the pretty pattern. We need to finish off the cleaning/de-rusting, complete the primer coat and seam sealing and then get a second coat of primer on before the top coats.

Further photos to come..

                     Andy

OOPS !!!!!!!  If you click on the blue part of the title under the photo it will open the right way up !!  Well, it did for me !!!

That was a lot of effort Andy.....but looked fun too!

Good to hear you've a choice of suppliers for the rear bearings as I need some too


P

VSO image resider is free and fairly painless to use:-

http://www.obviousidea.com/windows-software/light-image-resizer/

Something like 600x400 and 100k should still be fine.  We don't need to read the details on the paint tins on the shelf in the background.

Keep at it !!

David

The help desk has arrived !!!!!!! So, now there should be attached to this, the photos that will help make sense of my post placed on the 5th.

Photo 1   This shows the tool made by Jim after the 1/2inch square drive failed  and became circular, this is in 6mm plate
Photo 2   An enlargement of the above
Photo 3   The spread jaws of my knuckle bar
Photo 4   Sheared pin of the knuckle bar
Photo 5   This is the version of the tool that actually worked, the 1/2 drive is a cut-down redundant imperial impact wrench socket welded onto the original 6mm cap plate. This was used in the air impact wrenches and 'did the business'.

I wonder if these will appear upside down ????

                        Andy                                     

OK !!!  Now the hub is dis-assembled, bearings and oil seals sourced, there just remains the

'guarnizione per ghiera bloccaggio anello esterno cuscinetto mozzo ruote posteriori',

 or, as Babylon 9 would have it

'seal locking ring bearing outer ring rear wheel hub'.

This is part no13 on TAV53. I found the tattered remains of one of these on the right hand hub, no sign of anything like it on the left hand side !!! The questions are, are they really necessary and if so, will large O rings suffice?

It seems to me that there is little for them to do, the oil seals should protect the bearings and also stop grease working its way out from the bearings, so why are they there ??

All help and suggestions, as ever, gratefully  received.

                                  Andy

Rather a long time since I posted on this thread for which I apologise. My wife, Lynn, is unwell, but is now responding to treatment.

This has reduced my Lancia time to virtually zero, but Jim has still been round to play and 'kept the pot simmering'. I escaped today to the workshop and thought I would just put up a couple of photographs showing what I believe are two non-standard modifications to the shell.

We were concerned about the possibility of water and muck getting into the new sills past the shroud at the rear of the front wheel arch. The original shrouds were cut out and reconstructed by Jim, the bottom 100mm having rusted away totally on both sides. This meant that water and muck kicked up by the front wheels had free passage into the sills, there apparently being no closure piece blanking off the front of the sill. Also, there was the question of whether or not there should be a horizontal panel, at the level of the underside of the sill, between the front of the sill and the rear of the front wheel arch. My car when bought had such a panel on one side but not the other !!! Commonsense said that there should be such panels.

So, we decided that we would seal the front of the sills with blanking panels welded in place and install the horizontal panels referred to above. The latter panels would be bolted in to allow easy removal to check on and renew as necessary the anti rust treatment in the area rearwards of the shroud panels ie forward of the A posts. 

The attached photos will, I hope, show what we have achieved.

Is anyone able to advise please if such panels were installed originally ??

I hope to be able to spend more time with the cars later in the year and will try to get this thread up-dated soon.

                                               Andy

Hi Andy, as ever, family first and everything else 2nd/3rd and last....great to hear Lynn is responding to treatment.

I can see where you're coming from with this, Jim is very talented too and I am sure the purists won't have too much bother with it as largely hidden and going to preserve for longer your B 20. Plus as removable, even better.

Keep at it, motoring along nicely!

P

Having reassembled the de dion complete with new bearings, there remains just one question, please would someone advise the torque settings for the inner and outer ring nuts that secure the bearing in the casting. Having had a battle royal to undo these nuts (on one side anyway) we are prepared to do them up 'as tight as we bloody well can', but would prefer a more definitive approach if possible. Also, new front wheel bearings have been installed and a torque setting for the retaining nuts for these would also be much appreciated.

I have previously put up a post requesting torque settings for the each and every part of the car, but that was met with a deafening silence .... is there no such information available for these cars ?

Here's hoping for at least some information this time round.

                                       Andy

Have you checked in Paul Mayo's Aurelia manual?

I am embarrassed to say that I haven't !!! It should have been my first port of call !!!

Thank you for the suggestion, that will be my reading in the waiting room of the next doctor we have to see !!!

                           Andfy

With Lancia time low I'd paint the dash and hang it on the wall somewhere at home. 

Its my birthday tomorrow and today an aircraft boost gauge arrived to sit next to the pc. (I also know how much I suck, 7psi.  Blow is 2psi).  It made me think I should put the Augusta dash together and have all the clocks out of the display case and on the wall 'as a piece'.

As for all the "its got to be black" chat - my favourite cheerful colours are ford sunburst red (mine was and Jason and Louise still have it that colour) and the Austin Healey baby blue.  Are there any colours that for you make a car a happy car?

Look after yourselves...

David

Thank you for the thought on the dashboard David.

However, its just made me think, I wonder where all the instruments are ???  Fortunately I quickly remembered where they are safe and sound ...... but there were a couple of nasty moments there !!!


                 Andy

You see!!  Instruments need to be out somewhere you can keep an eye on them...one less worry...

David

I am horrified to see that my last post on this was at the end of January !!  Things are still a little awry in the Tait household, but Lynn is improving, albeit more slowly than hoped.

Anyway, Jim tells me he is making progress despite me turning up to help and the shell is definitely looking better. More on that in a separate post when I can get a little more time and some photographs together.

I have attacked the front axle assembly . This and the rear axle need to go back on the shell to allow it to be manoeuvred about once it comes off the rotisserie. New bearings were installed in the front hubs some while ago and they are awaiting a clean and finish. I have stripped the front axle beam and sliding pillar castings etc and, these will shortly be etch primed. Jim is making what can best be described as G clamps to assist and, more importantly control things, in the dismantling of the sliding pillars themselves although that particular task may not be carried out until after the axle is back on the shell. Am I making a rod for my own back by doing that, or should I deal with the sliding pillars before I put the axle back on the shell??

I have discovered that that both the bearings within the pillars are shot as are the two ball joint assemblies on the steering arm and the track rod. Cavalitto are on holiday for a couple of weeks so I can't get a price or availability for these from them at the moment. These seem to be unique to Lancia so I must pursue them through the normal channels.

What appear to be available off the shelf though are the silentbloc bushes in the steering arm and track rod. Parisien and I have acquired the total stock, ie 4 bushes, from Robush who have what appears to be the largest stock of readily available silentbloc bushes in the country. They are also very realistically priced!!!!  I understand that Robush will re-stock this bush.

So, that's where we are at for the moment, hopefully the interval to the next post will not be as great as this last one. That will indicate that I am getting some work done on the car and that I have the time to recount the ups and downs of playing with a 58 year old Lancia, not to mention a 68 year old Jim!!!!!

                                          Andy

I don't think you need to be in any rush to get the shell painted, and having the axle(s?) all done would be really good progress.  Is the axle at home?  If that's impractical anything else to have on the bench at home?  I'm thinking of things like polishing handles or getting switches and lights to work.  "All progress is progress". 

You must have shelved that "critical path" project plan in about 1972.  For myself I seem to be following the "how can I make steps backwards" - tee cut the paint that will be stripped, paint the steel that will be cut out...

David

Thank you for the thoughts David. I regret that 'project plan' is an oxymoron in the Tait household!!!!

I think your plan is not 'how can I make steps backwards' but more 'how can I stop nature taking steps backwards for me'. This makes your efforts very laudable and I wish I had thought to do it to both the Gussie and the B20 some 35 years ago !!!!!

Anyway, some advice please ........

1) Is it reasonable to reinstate the front axle and then tackle the bearings in the sliding pillars or should I dismantle and overhaul them before the axle goes back on the shell??

2) I believe that everything in the engine bay which should be painted should be black, but, please, what are the paint finishes for
                        a) front axle
                        b) rear axle
                        c) track rod and steering arm
                        d) all those linkage elements for brake, clutch, throttle, bonnet release etc
                        e) the engine bay itself ie inner wings, bulkhead
                        f) radiator and shutter assembly
                        g) transaxle support beams

3) Is there anything, other than the rocker covers that should have a crackle finish? Which is the best crackle finish to use?

4) What is the finish on the brake drums?

As I get further on there will be more and more questions. I do not intend to produce a car to concours standard, but if I am doing something then I would prefer it to be as original, unless there is a good engineering or safety reason for doing otherwise.

Thank you for your thoughts and I look forward to some answers.

                                                             Andy

A rather disappointing lack of response to the above post, so let's see if I have any greater luck with this request for help.

I decided to tackle the sliding pillars whilst the axle was off the car, it just seemed to make sense. I will post some photos later. First task was for Jim to make what amounts to a giant G clamp to control the spring forces during the initial dismantling and to assist in reassembly. Then the fabrication of spanners to fit the four caps/nuts/sleeves that form the sliding pillar (three are required). These were made from 10mm plate with only a short 'handle'. MO, put spanner on nut, hit 'handle' with club hammer to release it. As  the threads are immersed in oil and have not rusted, once it is free, only minimal effort is required to undo it completely.  We were not sure of the procedure  and order for dismantling, but it is fairly self evident and everything came apart quite readily. Usual clean and inspect revealed that, as expected, the thrust bearings above the main springs were shot and replacements are being sourced, they appear to be a non-standard size!! Not a surprise!!  We decided to refurbish only the spring elements, not the dampers

Now a request for suggestions please ....  the main spring is housed within two tubes (part nos 12 and 13 of TAV 50 for anyone who has the parts book) one of which slides and rotates within the other. To keep out the muck and bullets there appears to have been a rubber seal on the top of the lower tube. Needless to say, there is little more than a smear of disintegrating rubber left now. So, any suggestions as to how to replicate the seal. All I have managed to come up with is to clean thoroughly the top of the lower tube, apply a bead of silicon sealant, clean and grease the upper tube and then slide that over the lower tube to mould the silicon bead into a interference fit seal. I believe that will work, even if only in theory and not in practice!! Does anyone have any other suggestions .... and also please, suggestions  for a product for what I have glibly described as 'a bead of silicon sealant'.

I hope that I will soon be in a position to update this thread with all the work that has been done but not posted. I must admit that Jim has been undertaking the vast majority of this whilst I have been distracted by other matters.

Best wishes,

                           Andy

Only just seen your August post (missed due to exrtended hospital stay !)

Look forward to pictures, however,re "silicon seal". You could try the famous tiger seal, it is polyurethane, remains flexible and if it doesn't work, you can cut it out again. Pretty sure it is oil resistant

I am just about to repaint my Appia rocker covers with wrinkle black, will let you know how I get on. On Aurelias , I think the HT lead covers , if you still have them, and the battery cover were also wrinkled

For the other parts, I would assume that they will be the same as the Appia (which has an Aurelia axle, steering box etc) and they are satin black

Excellent, thank you Simon. That is a good start to paint finishes. I am pleased to say that I do have the HT lead covers and the battery cover. My recollection is that, whilst not perfect, they are in usable condition with an appropriate patina which I would not want to lose.

The now infamous tiger seal to the rescue again it would seem. I will definitely try it.

                                                            Andy

Andy, not much help am afraid, I am very much hanging onto your coat tails!!!!

Per chance did you take a few photos of what you found etc?

P

The top of the air filter should be crackle finish, too. I have succesfully used VHT Wrinkle Plus.

Prompted by Andy's question re wrinkle finish, I did a test on a rocker cover today, rather than repeat it all , here's the link :

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6258.msg47327#msg47327 (http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6258.msg47327#msg47327)

And I used the same VHT Wrinkle Plus as Niels

OK, VHT Wrinkle Plus it is !!!!!  I will have to check what needs this finish, it has been a while since I have seen many of these engine parts as they were some of the first parts to come off!!!  My recollection is a pleasant patina, but previous experience suggests that at least one part will be no more than rust held together by paint and hardened grease !!!!

Going back to the seal between the sleeves, parts nos. 12 and 13 of TAV 50. I have checked Simon's suggestion to use the ubiquitous Tiger Seal with U Pol, the manufacturers. They have indicated that this material slowly overtime absorbs oil and consequently swells up slightly. This makes it unsuitable for my particular proposal. I spoke to Martin at Omicron who was most helpful and suggested that most cars had dispensed with any seal at this point. The seal, of which I had found remnants, would most likely have been the original one which was an integral part of one of the sleeves and was not offered as a separate item. Therefore, after a nano second of thought, I have decided not to attempt to replace the seal!!

Omicron provided replacement thrust bearings, not the exact size of those found, but they fit and I am sure they will do the job. They are larger and appear more robust than the originals, so I am not anticipating any problems. the only problem is that the grease retaining cup of the originals does not fit, thus Jim has another little task to keep him amused over the festivities.

I am having a problem with my computer at the moment and cannot get this chromebook to post photographs so i regret they will have to wait, but they are being lined up ..........

Best wishes,

                              Andy

Chromebook problems?   Maybe it would be better in a black wrinkle finish.

David

If a black wrinkle finish will allow me to attach photos then I'm up for that!!!

This is an experiment, if it works there will be attached a photograph of the shell as it currently exists!!!  The whole of the underside and the interior is finished in Hammerite, a product I would not use again!!!!!

Wish me luck !!!

                     Andy

Well, there's a miracle !!!

A couple more photographs, if I can remember how I attached the last one !!!

One should show the underside finished in Hammerite (it will be finished in Schutz as the final protection layer!!).

The other two show the front axle, the first before dismantling and the second the springs themselves and associated parts.

                                Andy

Good man Andy......looks as pretty as a picture.......

P

I confess I did the underside AND inside of my Agusta shell in black Hammerite and 20 yrs on it still is pretty good. I agree not much fun to use but very good on my grit-blasted and phosphated steel.
Brian Hands

looking excellent Andy well done  :)

Brian , re the Hammerite, I have often used it in the past and been very satisfied. However, the product I am using now does not seem to be the same beast, it is not as viscous and does not seem to cover as well. I read a comment on another site that stated that the original manufacturer's, Finnegans, formulation was somewhat different to that on offer now. My experience seems to support that!!

Does anyone on the forum wish to  recommend a primer/paint system for use on the the underside of our beloved vehicles. Please note, I am asking for recommendations, not guarantees or a promise of a better result !!! Much to much depends on preparation and application !!!!

                                       Andy

Thank the EU for all the changes with paint, its made my life and other painter lives hell!!!! most paint was lead based in the good old days which is now banned  >:( best thing on the market these days is a 3M underseal which stays waxy , I will get the product number and let you know what it is, another very good option believe it or not is Dulux bare metal prima ,undercoat then gloss, this can be brushed or sprayed and is very flexible ,

Thanks for that James, I do recall you mentioning Dulux before, maybe for my next project !!!! Is the 3M underseal better than the Schutz and how does it compare in appearance? Would it be ok to use Waxoyl over it?

A couple more axle photos. We are stuck on the rebuild at the moment because the grease cups for the original thrust bearings, of course, do not fit the larger new bearings, another little job for the lathe. Hopefully these will be ready soon and then we can complete the axle rebuild.

Another couple of photographs .... I hope!!

                          Andy

Great progress, please keep the pictures coming - the more detail the better !

My experience with Hammerite has been similar, the new formulation is just not as good. The texture is different and it needs at least 2 coats. I no longer use it at all. I now have to use an oil based anti rust paint that takes at least 24 hrs to dry, I haven't found a quicker drying option yet

Bon courage !

Hi Simon

Can you share the brand name on the anti rust paint please?

Thanks

Peter

The make is "RENAULAC" and I think it may only be available here in France. On the plus side you can have it mixed to one of about 1000 colours. 2.5L costs just under 40 euros

it is a shutz type underseal but waxy , honestly no need to waxoil over it its a fantastic product as expected from 3M , goes on similar to shutz just looks far nicer and more wet look if you get what I mean , its not as thin as black waxoil or as transparent , next time your up I will show you, used it for years now with no problems at all, j

That 3M product sounds as though its exactly what I need, I hope it will not be long before I get back up to Wales, I have not been since August !!!!!

                          Andy

What's good about the dulux option is that its easy to get, goes on a treat, easy clean up and in any colour you can take to them to scan.  I was surprised when I heard of Parry success with it and was pleased to follow.

David

Thanks for the endorsement David, it is always great when a product is gets support from more than one independent user.

I will have to revisit the underside of the Gussie, I think that will need complete re-treatment. Consider that the present chassis black finish was done in the mid seventies!!! Paint technology has moved on apace in the last 40yrs.

                                                      Andy

Andy,

I might change my mind in another year :)   

Paint being as it is I can then blame the prep and still be none the wiser...

David

The trouble with blaming the prep David is that you, like me, do your own prep. Therefore any failure is due to choosing a rubbish product, or failing (again?) to do the prep work properly!!!!!  Whichever, we have only ourselves to blame. Usually at that point a find that merlot provides a useful point of solace!!!

                                  Andy

 it is a shutz type underseal but waxy , honestly no need to waxoil over it its a fantastic product as expected from 3M , goes on similar to shutz just looks far nicer and more wet look if you get what I mean , its not as thin as black waxoil or as transparent , next time your up I will show you, used it for years now with no problems at all, j
[/quote]

James what is the 3M product called and can you get it in a clear as well?? I have seen some 3M rubberised underseal on ebay for £45 for 12 cans....

pretty sure its this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Car-Body-Schutz-Black-Underseal-08861-x-12-/110647444902?pt=UK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item19c31a05a6 which is what I think you have seen, I will double check the part number tomorrow (if I remember  ::) ) its only available in black, what do you want to do in clear?? j

One of these?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Underbody-Air-Coating-Spray-Gun-Underseal-Schutz-Stonechip-Under-Body-Waxoyl-/110919651673?pt=UK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item19d3539159

Is it brushable?

David

Chugga - just a reminder to look for the part number...., and Clear for inside door skins - or is there a better product the also acts as a sound deadening as well as waxing?

David

That is a great device. I have one but not is such pristine condition. That is a cheap price too.

Tim

These are the two products recommended by James which we used on the Fanalone using a 3M gun which was way more expensive than the Ebay one above.

Excellent products and super results but do make sure you wear a good quality mask (not the paper ones) as they are very toxic.

http://www.3mdirect.co.uk/p-3195-3m-two-part-sprayable-sealer-1-bag.aspx

http://www.3mdirect.co.uk/p-2858-3m-underbody-schutz-coating-08861.aspx

Robin.

there we go Tim Robin has confirmed the underseal/ shutz , wurth do a fantastic cavity wax in shutz cans I will get the part number............when I remember!! ::) the 1st sealant that Robin has put the link to is a rubberised sealer that can be over painted and ideal for under wheel arches etc but very expensive , again top quality product

There is still a delay on the grease cups for the sliding pillar thrust bearings, these will now be out sourced. I will take the opportunity to get 2 new hinge pins made as, during the dismantling process, one had to be drilled out and another was found to be a bodged replacement.

So ...... what to do ..... As I stated in an earlier post it should soon be time to drop the shell off the rotisserie and onto its axles. A delay on the front axle means time to turn to the back axle. Today was the first time in 14 months that I managed to get in a full day on the car and I tried to make the most of it. So, the rear springs which had previously been rebuilt with new interleaving and silentbloc bushes were dusted off and, fitted with new bushes to the front mounting, the lefthand spring was fitted. The photograph shows the state of the front mounting bushes as removed, one is missing having disintegrated, two were simply thick wall rubber tube, split to aid fitting and the only one that appeared to be original is, shall we say, obviously past its best!!

The other job for today was to fit the adjuster snail cams to the brake back plates, every little bit helps, even when it's a little out of sync !!!!! I  will not rebuild the brakes at this stage, I just want to get enough done to get the wheels on and the shell mobile.

I hope the photographs are attached!!!

                  Andy

Great work Andy!

What is the latest on the Appia?

Tim

The Appia is still laid up in the garage!! The gearbox is out and has been checked by an independent specialist who has reported 'no fault found that would/could give rise to the knocking noise'. The problem has been finding the time to get into the garage and refit it. I have a new clutch plate, so it really is just a matter of making that time!!! Jim has said he will help, but it is a two man job and as I said in the post above, today is the first time for 14 months that I have managed to get a full day. However, as things get easier I hope to make a day to get the gearbox back in. However, although that is a desperately needed action, unless there is a miracle, the original problem will still be present and will remain to identify and overcome!!!

Time will tell .......

                              Andy

Every little counts Andy, bet it felt good to get the old mits dirty again!

So when gearbox back in, will you drive car again, have you tried using a multi channel electronic ear/stethoscope to localise noise?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Electronic-Stethoscope-Kit-Auto-Mechanic-Noise-Diagnostic-Tool-Six-Channel-/251421602860?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3a89e5342c

I can only assume they work and will be of some use?


P

You'll be taking her for drive soon .... looks great. Compared to a Fulvia, for example, the spring hanger bushes are quite light.

Bit of deja-vu seeing the backplates and adjusters. Very similar to the Aprilia system of course. Did you manage to tap the locking pins out or was it necessary to drill them ?

Hope you are able to get another day in soon !

Frank, I will most definitely be driving the Appia as frequently as possible, once this damned knocking noise is sorted. It was bought specifically to be a, within reason, a daily use car and I am not minded to change that. I think I may need such a stethoscope, but the noise had become so bad and easy to provoke that, once she is running again, the first thing I will try will be to put her on the ramp at my local friendly MOT place, jack up the rear axle and drive it against the handbrake to see if we can get the noise whilst checking from underneath!!! I just hope this will happen sooner rather than later!!!!

Simon, I had noted from your postings the similarity between Aprilia and Aurelia brake parts. The one thing that has surprised me about the Aurelia brakes is that the Aurelia front brakes have a leading and a trailing shoe, whilst the diminutive Appia, has twin leading shoes. Anyway, in due course I will discover how well they function, they were ok when I last drove it ................. about 35 years ago!!!!!

As to the locking pins in the adjusters, we managed to drive out 1 of the 4 on the fronts and 2 of the 4 on the backs. All the others were drilled out. Jim will make 8 new pins (or I might cheat and use roll pins!!!!)  The other part to be made for the adjusters is 1 new nut, 1 split whilst removing the locking pin!!

I can manage a part-time day today, but things will then go quiet for a couple of weeks as I have to 'do' the gift trade Spring Fair at the NEC starting a week today.

But it is great to be back in the workshop, I didn't even mind rolling around on the floor under the shell, fortunately for only 10mins!!!!

                                                Andy

The thing is Andy, the noises can only be reproduced whilst on the move, at certain power/load/revs....perfect circumstances in which to use the stethoscope.

P

Frank

I had the pleasure of riding with Andy with my head in the footwell and hand against the bulk head. I was convinced that the noise (and hitting feeling came from the bell housing area. If the gearbox has a clean bill of health (and I expect should otherwise the noise would have very quickly led to a bigger noise...) then flywheel/clutch/release mechanism has to be carefully examined.

Andy
I have some capacity this week or after 24th Feb if you want a pair of hands to put the gearbox back. Give me a call!

Tim

So as gearbox already out, a further strip down required, hoping its resolved soon, as I'm sure Andy's had his fill of the current situation!

P

Tim, a very kind offer, I will see what the next few weeks throws at me!! Hopefully Lynn will get an all clear on 12th Feb and then its a matter of trying to regain her strength before her next trial in the late summer. So, all being well I should be able to get a little more playtime in the spring.

Anyway, today saw another visit to the workshop ................. and then there were two, installed rear springs that is !!!!!!
The 3 photographs show both the springs in place, the rear mounting and the front mounting. We discovered we had no split pins, hence the bits of wire, purely temporary I can assure you. The  4 'stirrups' over the rubber 'cotton-reel' bushes of the front mounts seem of quite light construction being simply formed flat steel bar. These are secured by 2 bolts each, 8mm dia, 1.0mm pitch, which we had mislaid so Jim made new ones whilst I made 8 tab washers to secure them. The tab washers are not standard, but I feel uncomfortable about the bolts not being secured/locked in any way !! 

We are hoping the sliding pillar thrust bearing grease cups will be ready within 2 weeks whereupon we will be able to complete rebuilding the front axle. Then it will be time to install both axles, attach the brake back plates and drums before adding the wheels and dropping the shell off the rotisserie. That will be a momentous day!!!!!!

Let's see what happens .....

                                Andy

Following my post of 1st Dec concerning dismantling the sliding pillars, I thought it might be time for photographs of the kit Jim made.

The tool is based on a design mentioned in one of Morris Parry's incredibly useful and detailed Augusta newsletters.Peter Renou came across the concept and described how he made one for his Gussie. Basically it really is just a large G clamp customised to suit the sliding pillar. It will apparently suit an Appia as well, so I have no excuses!! It allows controlled release of the compression in the spring and should prove equally useful when we reassemble the pillars.

The spanners are, of course, sized to fit and proved very effective.

So, photographs .... the ear defenders are simply to give an idea of scale.

                             Andy

As ever Andy ...Jim comes up trumps........worth his weight in gold or Aurelia parts.....not much difference I think!!!


P

Well, things have moved on, Jim had a good weekend last week when I was at the NEC and this weekend has also bben successful.

Young Mr Laver may recognise the concept of the steering wheel. Mine is not splintered as that on David's 'South London Sport' apparently was but the timber mouldings have been separating on the rim. I used 15mm foam pipe lagging to protect what remains,  bound with masking tape which was further protected with the gaffer tape you can see in the photograph.

More to follow ....

                       Andy

Sorry about the photograph being rotated through 90, it appears correctly on my download folder. Is it possible for one of our Administrators to rotate it to the correct orientation please?

                        Andy

I should have explained that the purpose of getting the steering wheel and column out into the daylight is all part of the plot to get the shell off the rotisserie, onto its axles and manoeuvrable. I am currently hunting for the steering box and the panhard rod.

Anyway, the grease cups for the sliding pillar thrust bearings have been made and are a perfect fit, a tribute to Jim's drawing and the expertise of the lathe operator. I will post Jim's drawing later in case anyone else has the same problem. The sliding pillars have been rebuilt and the front axle painted. Also painted are the track rod and steering arm.

                   Andy

All the photographs are rotated through 90, I do not know why or how to deal with it!!!

Anyway, a little more, the de Dion has now been painted. A photograph of the front axle complete is also attached to this post although it is more relevant to the preceding one.

We have all the fixings for the front and rear axles plus new silentbloc bushes for the track rod and the ball joints on the steering arm have been rebuilt. I will  have to re-check the ball joints as one has a spacer whilst the other does not. The TAV does not show a spacer for either, I feel uncomfortable about this and thus the need to re-check. New tab washers have been made for these ball joints, they are relatively flimsy and it is easy to break the tabs.

So, I hope that after cleaning and painting the panhard rod and overhauling the steering box we will have everything we need to attach to the shell to allow us to drop it (in a controlled manner) off the rotisserie and onto its wheels.

I should have mentioned the wheels before, I have 6 of them but 2 are severely corroded, possibly beyond redemption. Another little problem and no doubt not a little expense!!!

                          Andy

Brilliant progress.

As for the rotated photos its all clear enough like that...

David

Well, today I dug out the steering box and the Panhard rod and cleaned up the latter ready for the etch primer.

Tomorrow I will have a close look at the steering box, it has been cleaned externally but the internals are a mystery.

Attached is a photograph of the Panhard rod, I am pleased to say it is complete with new silentbloc bushes. It is photographed on the lounge carpet, fortunately Mrs T did not find out. She is now on crutches and I can outrun her, however I do have to remember she has a far greater reach with those crutches and they do hurt!!!!!! Only joking!!!

                                Andy

A little help please, I am sure it is in the forum somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it ........ what is the best satin finish paint for use on under bonnet elements of my car?

                                       Andy

2 pack satin black, its gloss black with matting agent added, most acrylic and cellulose products are attacked by brake fluid and petrol, 2k is hard as nails and rarely attacked by these things, give me a ring again if you want to know more, j

Ref the 'kit that Jim made', is there any chance of getting him to make one for me? I have an assortment of spanners I use with a Heath Robinson method of dealing with the compression problem. I would therefore very much like to have the ability to do the job in a controlled fashion.
Chris

A couple more photos of that device - and progress.

This was the very end of November delivering the ex-Richard-Fridd-Fulvia ex-Jaguar front seats from Robin Lacey who tracked down some original Fulvia seats for it.

David

Just for clarification, in David's second photograph, Jim is the ugly old guy with glasses, I am the ugly old guy without glasses ..........

                     Andy

While he's at it, I might put myself up for a set too. Perhaps he should make a batch. Anyone else?

Yep, I'd be up for one as well.

Seems a sensible addition to the toolbox, Yes please ......

How does the 10th February suddenly slip to the 21st April ??

One way is to totally cock-up the painting of the engine bay!!!!  In February this was painted with black, high gloss coach paint. There are only two things wrong with that!!! Firstly it should be a satin finish and secondly coach paint is not the best for an under-bonnet environment. So ........ oh well, just take it back to bare metal and start again. That is so quick and easy to say, but putting it into practice ......... that is another matter. Some 20 man days later and at the cost of two drills, one angle grinder and two flexible drives plus the usual consumables the engine bay was back to bare metal!!!! The engine bay is a real nightmare, with all sorts of channels, clips and brackets creating an incredibly difficult area in which to work. An expensive and time consuming operation!!!!

So the Easter break was spent spraying the engine bay with etch primer, then cleaning up the shell which was no longer suitable for primer, spraying that with etch primer and then ........ a step I had begun to think might never happen ......... fit the refurbished axles, then the wheels and drop the shell off the rotisserie onto wheel dollies.

I will try to get some photos up in subsequent posts ... but you know me and photos!!!

                                     Andy

PS we did consider polishing the steel shell and finishing it with lacquer, no, not really !!!!

Photographs, with a bit of luck !!! Theoretically, there should be five of them and all at the correct orientation !!!


                             Andy

Obviously there is an area at the front of the shell and another at the back it was simply not possible to get at to clean up and prime, due to the presence of the rotisserie. Those areas will be attacked shortly !!!!

I am just pleased to have it on its wheels again. I also have to fit the steering box, the steering column, the track rod and the steering link. All have been refurbished and are ready to go !!!

                                             Andy

That's a big step forwards...on its wheels!!!

What's the status of the gearbox?

David

looking really good, cracking job on the metal work

David, gearbox status is best described as 'fingers crossed' !!!!!

It was all ok and everything worked all those years ago when it went in to store. I have a new clutch from Ron and that all seems fine, the original one was in  a dire state when I dissembled it. I will simply change the oil in the gearbox and see what happens.

The engine is a different matter ..... it is seized and will have to be stripped to be checked and refurbished as necessary.

Brakes, I think I have everything I need to restore them except possibly the reservoir unit, I must investigate that a little more.

Electrics .... they are a wholly different issue that I have yet to visit. I need to take a deep breath and jump in !!!!!!!

In the meantime  I am allowing myself a little bit of self satisfaction at having got the shell in primer and off the rotisserie!!  

                                          Andy

Help required please ....

Somehow, I have lost one complete set of the brake adjusters .... that is the snail cam complete with short length of bolt, the nut, the pin and the spring with its cup. Jim has made a new snail cam with its short length of stud and the nut, the pin is not a problem, but what I desperately need is a spring and its cup. Is anyone out there able to help please?

                                      Andy

Excellent Andy...bar the adjuster bit........lovely to see her on her pins

P

Well, I got a break from the Appia yesterday and caught up with Jim, he fitted the bootlid last weekend and we fitted the bonnet. Also the areas obscured by the rotisserie have been cleaned off and primed, so its just the doors to do. We decided to leave them for today, consolidate other areas and they will be tackled next weekend.

The steering wheel, which is in a poor state has been removed, and I will replace the wiring in the steering column. The indicator/dip switch seems to be tatty but fully functional which is a relief. Talking of wiring, is it possible to buy a loom for a B20 (4th series) or must it all be replaced as individual wires? Any suggestions for a supplier for wiring essentials?

There will be more questions in the near future as I come across more problems when I get into the detail!!

Another thing, one of the steering arm ball joints has a broken spring, item 12 on TAV 48. Does anyone have a spare please. Also, no response yet to my request for the spring and cup in the brake shoe adjuster mechanism, items 6 and 13 on TAV 42 (also items 7 and 18 on TAV 43), can anyone help please?

More to come as and when ...

                                    Andy

Following on from the above reference the rewiring, I have a copy of the wiring diagram for my S4 car from Paul Mayo's excellent Manual. However, wiring colours are not shown which is a little frustrating to say the least. Does anyone have a diagram complete with colours that I could copy please?

                         Andy

That bare shell is a work of art. I assume all the seams are lead loaded (or modern equivalent - does lead weep moisture or something??). Looks like it's been formed from one piece of metal.

Stanley, most of the seams are perfectly formed!!!!!!! There is a fair amount of lead at some of the more difficult areas where the joints between elements are occur where there is an abrupt change in the body shape, for example at the bottom of the windscreen pillars.

When the car was at the bare metal stage I wanted to highlight all the panel joints with a marker and photograph it, partly as a testament to the expertise of those who originally fabricated the body and partly as a piece of art. However, time and practicality  got in the way of that !!!

                                        Andy

Tanc Barratt did that once - like all the cuts of meat.  If I have a photo its chemical not digital and buried.

You will find it difficult to find a wiring diagramme with colours indicated. All wires were black with small numbered metal bits fitted to the ends. The best solution is to pull out all wires and begin from cratch using the diagramme. Remember to number the wires at both ends. It can be done succesfully; I did it many years ago, and everything still works.

Thats what I do as well Niels and I am just doing a front and rear early S4 B20 loom at present......but I tend to use modern wire which has thinner insulation than original for the lower demand circuits. The core is still up to the job spec wise so no safety issues and it seems to make for a tidier job..
Chris

Tidier job: yes, the original wire is a bit thick, and in some places, especially at the fuse box, it gets crowded!

If you could exhume the photo David I would really love to see it!!

                                 Andy

Thank you Niels, Chris and Sebastien, my investigations to date suggest that thinwall wiring would be a great advantage, so long as the wires do not look too thin and therefore spoil the appearance of the finished job.

I had removed the steering column and that is wired with single colour wires. From what you have said that would appear to be a re-wire carried out before my ownership.

However, to day I removed the dashboard and whilst the majority of the wiring is black there are six blue wires which appear to be original. They are about 44 no. 0.2mm dia strand, giving maybe 1.4mm squared. I will replace these with 28/0.3 cable which provides 2mm squared with a 2.7mm OD compared to the 3.3mm OD of the existing cable. There are grey cables of the same size serving the push switch to the left of the speedo and also some black cables the same size. There is a red cable connected to what I think is the wiper switch, but that appears to be a relatively recent addition. All the other wires are smaller and black and will be replaced with appropriate thinwall cable.

I need a little more time to measure the cable sizes and lengths feeding the dash and then I can move onto those serving the lights and other remote locations before compiling a shopping list which must also include terminals, junctions, PVC sleeving etc. Delivered today were two lengths of rubber tubing that I will use to sleeve the wires feeding the front lights. I have the copper bends that pass through the inner wings etc but will need to have a think about the grommets through which they pass, they are rather tired. Of course I would like to replace them, does anyone have any spare or possibly know of a source?

I should get a little more time for investigation tomorrow and Jim is coming round to play over the weekend so I am hopeful we will make more progress.

                                             Andy

Well, Jim must have been well-behaved last week because he was allowed out to play!!

Right, get the doors hung ... should not be too difficult!! Both doors had been repaired, they had started to rot on the front, rear and bottom edges where the doorskin is spot welded to the frame. Jim had drilled out the spot welds and cut out the rotten steel, a strip about 60mm wide on each edge and welded in oversize strips as repair pieces. The doorskins are not clenched over the frame, the usual method of fabrication, but spot welded on and cut to size.

So the MO, hang the door with the front edge behind the front wing, close the door as much as possible, mark the doorskin, remove the door and cut the front edge to suit. Re-hang the door and close it as far as the oversize bottom repair strip will allow. Then, trim the bottom repair strip progressively to fit, working from front to back, the door closing more and more as the bottom is trimmed to fit, . Once the bottom has been completely sorted the door will very nearly shut, there remains only the rear edge to be trimmed. Trim the rear edge, et voila!!!! Simples.

So it was for the right-hand side, the door on and off four times, but no real problems and it was done. Now for the left-hand side .... all went well, front marked and trimmed, door re-hung, bottom trimmed to fit and then TROUBLE hit us in the face!!! Somehow the door had dropped, we cannot fathom it. The hinge element on the A post is welded on, that on the door is bolted directly to the frame, the door opening was solidly braced during the repairs and the top of the door fits perfectly in length. Needless to say there were a few expletives, but we stoically determined the way forward ........... pack the bottom hinge by 3mm to give the necessary 6mm lift at the rear of the door. Of course, it did the trick perfectly, but of course there was a price to pay!!! The lovely panel gap at the front of the door had now opened up by 3mm and looked awful!!!!  So, off with the door, weld a strip, oversize, on the front edge, shape it, grind the weld etc etc, not a 5 minute job, ready to re-hang the door and trim it to shape again. Such is life, Jim has gone to play with Humbers for 5 weeks so it will be a while until the door is finally hung and trimmed!!! In the meantime, I am looking at the wiring, but that is another story!!! To be continued ......

                                     Andy

Good progress for all its hard won.

David

I re-wired my own car with coloured wiring. Spent a bit of time deciding on what colours suited the various circuits, and made notes. I had used the original wiring as well as one of the wiring diagrams in the Club Workshop Manual as a guide, and then had a large photocopy of the wiring diagram made up, with a few modifications to suit the finished result.
With the 3rd series car I had been working on over the past few years, I again re-wired with coloured wires, but this time I ran a black 'shrink fit' sleeve over each wire, long enough to cover each coloured wire down as far as where the wires were grouped together. These bundles were covered with the original plastic sleeve. I re attached as best I could each metal numbered tag, but you could still see enough of the colour to make things easy to line up. Very long and tedious job, but the end result was good.

Just a quick up-date on the wiring .....

I have prepared a schedule of materials, with quantities for the re-wiring and was just about to place an order with Auto Electric Supplies when I came across the Autosparks website. I have put another post up about their offer of harnesses. They do not offer one for the B20, but are open to requests. Needless to say, I have requested a price for a B20 harness. Robin, aka dilambdaman, states that they supplied one for the Fanalone and it was excellent. So, the order for the schedule of materials is on hold!!!!

The dashboard has been removed and stripped of instruments, switches etc and also stripped of paint and primer/filler. It looks very good as bare aluminium!!

A few photographs to show what has to be replaced ...... and where we are at!

Hopefully, in order ... tacho instrument cluster
                              speedo instrument cluster
                              switches
                              dashboard as removed rear
                              dashboard as removed front
                              spaghetti
                              rear of fusebox
                              dashboard naked

Points of interest ......

1)  did you spot the cables held into the end switch with matchsticks (3rd photo)?  No, I was not responsible for that!!
2)  the delightful attempts at openings for the radios. I was not responsible for them either!!
3)  on a sensible note ... the blue wires behind the dash and even more obviously behind the fusebox are, I am certain, part of the original wiring installation!!!

Kevin, I am impressed with your attention to detail with that rewiring job, using individual shrink sleeves on coloured wiring!!!! Most commendable.  I also intend to try to re-use the aluminium numbered tags on the ends of the wires. I am not sure how readily they will come off, or indeed if they will be re-usable, so I will order a set of plastic ones which hopefully need only be used in hidden locations. Which raises the question, is it possible to buy new aluminium numbered tags?

                                        Andy

Yes it is possible to buy aluminium tags. They are sold in 'kits' for old Fiats etc but I have only ever seen them at Italian Autojumbles on a wiring supplier stand. They may well be available on the internet these days. There is a sort of 'numbering convention' with old Italian car wiring  so a Fiat kit for example will have tags with the correct numbers for an Aurelia.
Chris

Hi Andy,

My S6 also uses blue wires from the dashboard to the fuse board.
They are mainly associated with the headlight circuits, and are also original.

In general, I have found that the original connectors have become tarnished with age, leading to poor connections.
Recent problems with headlights have been cured by replacing the connectors.


Charles

Some help please. I wish to get a replacement 'label plate' for the fusebox on my B20, The one on my car is totally illegible, quite useless.I hope to avoid having to resort to a new reproduction which would look out of place. Does anyone have one that is legible and available?

Also, I am still trying to get some of the special grommets that are part of the wiring loom for the front lights. They hold the copper elbows as the loom passes into and out of the rear of the headlights, foglights and side lights.

                                                              Andy

Any feedback from the firm who will/might make the wiring loom Andy?

P

I am still working on it!!!

           Andy

A little help please ....

Attached, I hope, at the correct orientation, is a photograph of the cover of the headlamp relay on my car ... a little the worse for wear. I am not sure how this happened, it might even have been like it when I bought the car. Anyway, I need a new one. Of course the question is, does anyone have one as a spare, preferably with at least one of the fixing screws please. I daresay the screws are standard thread, but getting the slot head is gradually becoming more difficult.

I wait with bated breath .....

                                   Andy

                                 Andy

looks the same as appia, try the consortium  ;)

Brilliant, thanks James, will do!!

                 Andy

So, what the heck happened this weekend ....... well, Jim came out to play and we looked at that door that would not hang itself !!!! I tell you, it looks brilliant now!! Jim has done a excellent job, but of course, as soon as one job is done another stands out in front of you.

Today's task was to look at the sill trim, not straightforward I can assure you. The first not straightforward bit is to find all the bits that you need. To begin with, there are so many bits you do not know that you need ......... like the interior panels next to the rear 'seat', the rubber mats that cover the sills, not forgetting the timber packing pieces under them and then there are the aluminium trim panels on the A and B pillars, not to mention the drainage catch 'boxes' at each end of the sill!!!! Without all of those pieces it is not possible to set the aluminium sill trims in the door opening!!

After a lot of trial and error, especially the latter, we decided that we had sorted it, great progress!!

Also, we have stripped the paint from many of the trim panels that must be sprayed with the bodyshell, slowly but surely we are getting there .......

                                                          Andy

Great if the Appia Con. can sort this out. Some online searching (CEAM deviolux) suggests they are available, but also that they are rare and also used on 250/330 Ferraris, which could drive prices up (as Appia usage could bring it down, no offence to the honourable Appisti intended!). Apparently also used on Maserati 3500.

There's one on ebay.it (last of the links below) for 100 Euros.

Some links:
http://saxonparts.com/ceam-bachelite-deviolue-headlight-switching-relay/# (http://saxonparts.com/ceam-bachelite-deviolue-headlight-switching-relay/#)

http://www.aurelia-b22.com/16.html (http://www.aurelia-b22.com/16.html) - scroll down

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MASERATI-3500-GT-LANCIA-AURELIA-DEVIOLUX-CEAM-NUOVO-ORIGINALE-/360791731358?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item5400dcec9e (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MASERATI-3500-GT-LANCIA-AURELIA-DEVIOLUX-CEAM-NUOVO-ORIGINALE-/360791731358?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item5400dcec9e)

is this the fella??

Certainly looks like it, would you put it aside for me please James.

I keep thinking I will be up to visit, but there is just so much going on at the moment ... got the Harrogate trade fair out of the way, am now a grandfather for the 11th time, no. 12 due in 3 weeks!!!

I am still pursuing a new loom, more information as and when ...

Then we come to the rubber mats. It is necessary to have those for the sills to enable the sill trims to be positioned and thus for the drainage 'catch boxes' to be positioned. Once you start to look at the mats the Cicognani website becomes essential reading, but do sit down first, the prices are eye-watering!!!!! I am delighted to say that after a few heart stopping moments I did, over a period of two days, find all the mats. Not only did I find them, but they are all in very good usable condition with the possible exception of the mat under the drivers feet .... not really that surprising!! We had an astonishing amount of rain yesterday afternoon, the workshop roof gutter system failed and huge amounts of rain gushed from the gutter onto the footway. Always being one to try to do my bit for the planet, I decided that, in T shirt and shorts , it would be appropriate to put mats out on the footway, give them a little squirt of Fairy liquid and give them a good brush down with a broom. After decades of lying in the car and collecting dirt, it was astonishing to see their excellent condition once cleaned. So that saved me some £800, but I still have to deal with all the seals etc. Those seals that I have inspected are in an horrendous condition and must be replaced, so there will still be a few hundred pounds spent with Cicognani. Has anyone any experience of using off-the-shelf seals such as those offered by Woolies, C O H Baines Ltd, and etc., there seems to be great scope for saving a significant amount of money!!

That is where we are at the moment with a lot more to follow.

                                                       Andy

Talking about "screws' - I seem to be able to find slotted screws (set or self-tapper), but it's the Phillips domed, countersunk ones that I a having difficulty with. They seem freely available in the States, but the postage for small quantities is horrendous ......

Look forward to seeing some more piccies , please !

Andy make your own loom its easy, I hate electrics and always had a phobia to re wiring, the augusta I have in had no loom what so ever, I bought everything from AES , all the loom is in black cotton braided and looks fantastic and after the 1st day I found myself really enjoying it  ???
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/
rubber seals , try these , always works for me
http://www.phoenixtrim.co.uk/
I found most seals for augustas and aprilia's from them or woollies , I will put some better photos of loom up when its finished, this is just roughly drawn through stage, its now more or less finished however photo's are on camera and its in work

http://www.wurth.co.uk/fasteners-general-metric-imperial/bolts-and-screws/countersunk-screws
http://www.wurth.co.uk/fasteners-general-metric-imperial/tapping-thread-rolling-drilling-screws/self-tapping-screws/screw-self-tapping-raised-countersunk-stainless-a2-m6-3x50-din-7983

Andy , a few pics of augusta electrics , honestly easy when you get into it, j

Nice .....

 I am now a grandfather for the 12th time, fortunately all is well although there have been some worrying moments with both the latest arrivals.

I am still trying to resolve the wiring problem. I am now tending towards the Chugga DIY route, primarily because my proposed supplier has had to put things on hold for the moment. I have rewired my Gussie, but the B20 is probably twice the job. Decision day will probably be Wednesday when my friendly auto electrician will be visiting !!!

Anyway, I have been having fun with other bits, the shell is now deemed ready for the spray shop, but before I deliver her I must finish preparing all those small pieces that must also be sprayed with the shell. There are a hell of a lot more of them than I anticipated and they all seem fiddly!!!

Getting there!!!!!

                    Andy

There's a couple of guys with a great reputation in the VSCC for rewires.  From memory they come to you with all the gear. I thought there was a link off the VSCC site but not anymore.  Might be in a newsletter...

David

Today, after a eureka moment, the spring and cup loss problem has been solved!!!!!

I decided to have a look at the spare brake assembly I have for the Appia. At first it seemed that the Appia adjuster was a straight swap for that on the B20. Seems reasonable, interchangeable parts between two models being produced by the same company at the same time ............... but this is Lancia, reasonable, or common sense have no bearing on practice!!! 

So, the cam is a different profile and a different thickness, the bolt linking it all together is longer in the Appia than it is in the B20, BUT, the main thing is that the spring and its protective cup are THE SAME!!!!! Those are the bits I need so this problem has been overcome.

Needless to say, as ever, there are a few more problems coming to light!!!!

                                         Andy

David, I think you mean Winston Teague and Matthew Blake. However I do recall being told by Matthew's father John that after he had done his (John's) B20 he swore never to do another!

Well Tony you rotter, that fills me with confidence when I am just about to embark on my little venture!!!!!

Tomorrow Mike, auto electrician will come to look again at the car. He had previously agreed to help me install a new loom, but will now need to look at again with a view to helping me make up the loom. He has checked the dynamo and it appears there are no real problems, the starter motor is waiting in the wings.  Maybe tomorrow I will get a report.

In the meantime Jim has been tackling the paint stripping of the trim bits, at the moment the steering column is getting some attention.

I have a new bit of kit which is very good, but is demanding a lot of my time on tasks that are not on the critical path!! It is a bench polisher kit bought from 'thepolishingshop.co.uk'. For less than £100 you get a 6" (150mm for you smug young ones) bench grinder, wheels removed and replaced with spindles, three polishing mops and three bars of Menzerna polishing compound. Then there is a pair of gloves and a little face mask. The kit is very good, if only I could say the same for the operator. There is quite a bit of skill involved, not so much in actually using the kit, but more in judging the best combination of mop and compound for the situation. Also, I started off with what I am told is a common error in using too much compound. Now I find I am tending to use too little. I reckon I will get it sorted just as I finish the last bit of polishing. Sounds familiar ... I am working on the trim pieces, seal mouldings, windscreen seal inserts etc all of which are aluminium, so there are some small areas of bad corrosion with pitting and protrusions as well as the general thin grey corrosion layer. I have learnt to start off (cautiously) with 'wet n dry' 380 grade, then 600, then 1200 before using the polisher. It is difficult to represent properly the outcome in photographs, but I hope the following give some indication. The first photograph is three of the door opening trim pieces, one 'as found', the middle after the 1200 grade 'wet n dry' and the final one is finished. The second photograph shows the trims on the side panels adjacent to the rear seat, one 'as found' the other finished. I should state that my 'finished' standard is not concours standard, but what I consider to be 'good usable', but with indications that these parts are 59 years old!!

                               Andy

Sorry Andy, didn't mean to discourage, especially since my car was done for me!

We obtained a loom premade from John Savage who has a lot of experience, not sure if he still does these but it's worth trying him.

I was happy with the loom, but less so with the installation work,as almost all the problems I have had since have originated in loose connections (ie not finish tightened) and I have gone through most of the car again myself, which is not what you expect when you paid for it already.

When the Lambda and Aprilia get to that stage, if I don't do it myself I will certainly call Winston and see if they are willing.

Mine was done by John - it was an amazing rats nest that came out.

The polishing looks OVER done to me, but the way ali is by tomorrow morning it will look fine again :)

David

I can assure you David that, once seen in the cold light of day, you will not think the polishing is overdone. Yes, in the few places where the metal has been protected, it has been possible to get an almost chrome-like finish, but elsewhere the ravages of time are evident. As you say, after a few days it will calm down anyway.

The wiring ..... still not totally decided on this, but it is looking most likely I will be following the DIY route ...... I am alternating between thinking  'yes I can do this, what's the problem'  and  'I must be bloody mad taking this on'.  Time will tell!!!!

Jim's around to day so another day of progress ....... and probably abuse!!

                                    Andy

Andy, bite the bullet and do it yourself, like I said I was terrified at first but actually ended up enjoying it , its very rewarding watching everything work in the end , its not rocket science honest !!

Well, that is a quick six weeks  since my last post, but things have been happening.

I have polished all the bits that I can find that should be polished, except the bumpers. I am not sure what I will do with them.

I have stripped the paint from all the bits that I think should be sprayed with the shell, so that element of work is out of the way.

That brings us to the wiring loom, I am beginning to think it should be called the wiring doom as that is all I seem to get. My auto electrician has been sidelined by family matters which  means there really is only one option, the DIY route. I have been trying to avoid this, but it seems I have no choice. One reason for re-wiring the car was that it would make the respray an easier and better job, thus the 'replace the loom in-situ, one wire at a time' is not possible. The whole loom has to come out, a new one made and then that installed in the newly painted shell. I have posted photographs of the several birds nest that pass for the under dash wiring, that around the fusebox is not dissimilar to several highly compressed birds nests. Was I daunted? Yup very!!! 

However, last weekend was time to start the loom removal process. Numerous photographs have been taken (but there will be so many things that I will soon find that I missed), detailed notes have been written, wires have been labelled and still I am finding myself flummoxed. Jim was around at the weekend and we made good progress, I have managed to get three good days of work in since then and now the whole loom has been removed and attached to boards mounted on a workshop wall. It all looks quite straightforward, but many wires pass through the fusebox mounting board and must be stripped out of the PVC sheathing, pulled through the board and then re-attached to the sheathing to help make sure nothing is missed when making the new loom.

The photographs show the existing loom mounted on the board in readiness for the new loom to be copied from it. That will be built up in the top half of the board and hope fully will look like a neater and cleaner version of the existing. It is quite horrifying to see how many wires have been damaged over the years, I am sure some exposed cables date back to the original installation process. As for some of the repairs, they are woeful. if nothing else this has made me realise that the decision to re-wire was really the only sensible option. Time will tell whether or not the DIY choice was sensible!!

There we have it, family health matters will deal a severe blow to progress over the next couple of weeks, but hopefully Jim will be able to finish the last niggles on the shell in readiness for the spray shop. Then I must sort the engine re-build and get on with the new loom. Chugga had some brilliant advice ........ shut the doors, don't let anyone one in to distract you and simply concentrate on the job in hand!!!

I will keep you updated.

                         Andy

You know it had to be done - and can imagine the issues and perhaps consequences of not.

It's got to beat being on you back on a cold floor with a face full of under seal.

Just keep at it...make yourself comfortable and don't run out of tea.

What are the bumpers like?  In the Flavia news letter the advice was to get any chrome you need done pronto before the regs change.

I like the idea of pinning it all to the wall and copying it. As suggested elsewhere, lock the door and concentrate ...... I have done several re-wires ( complete houses not cars ) and I do the same.

That's a pretty complex loom for a '50's car. I remember fitting the loom to my Frogeye which was probably more akin to a 1930's car. You really are logging some great progress though!

I have not told Jim yet, but he is the one that will be on his back with a face full of underseal .... actually, in reality I don't think he will, I will suggest it and he will tell me where to put said underseal!!!!!!

Thank you for the tip re the bumpers, what is the significance of the regs change?

With regard to the on-the-wall process, I must admit it was Jim's suggestion and does seem to be a very good way to go. I have drilled two pieces of wood to replicate the fuse box, I thought a good idea, but in practice they are too big and cumbersome. There are ten fuses, for the new loom I will buy 20 screw eyes, two pairs of ten which will allow me to keep the wires to the two sides of the fuses separate.

Today I propose to tidy things up, look for more unmarked wires and identify them. Undoubtedly I will still find some rogue wires, but I hope there will not be too many.

Sorry that the last photograph is upside down, but it gives a feel for the job.

                                                     Andy

At Bedford trucks they had to build very many special vehicle order wiring looms using a similar idea to Andy's, however it was made up on a board lying flat, with lots of nails to exactly trace the routing and lengths for individual components, then all was gathered together when complete for taping up.
It might also be worth putting rubber grommets in holes where possible to avoid any damage to the harness & individual cables when being pulled through.
When re-running the harness runs through small holes and behind panels they used an old inner speedometer cable with a small nearly closed hook on the end to pull the cables through, very flexible!

Brian
8227 8)

Brilliant Andy, great to see you forging ahead, keep up the magnificent work


P

Thanks for the inner speedo cable suggestion Brian. I will bear it in mind. To date I have got away with using a set of Aldi (good old Aldi) cable threading rods, but your speedo cable will be far more flexible. Also, where necessary, I pulled a drawline through when I pulled a length of loom out. Theoretically I have it covered, but we all know, to our cost, the difference between theory and practice!!!!

                                              Andy

Just a line to let you know that I am still alive and kicking!!!

Lynn now has a new knee and I have made a little progress on the loom. I could not get a speedo cable inner so I have made do with a length of plastic covered net curtain rail. It has proved to be invaluable. Also, I have proved the value of using draw cables.

I reckon I am not yet half way through, but I have worked out a system. Every wire that I put in is tagged at both ends with the label stating to what it is attached and what it has come from. The wire in the original loom has both ends tagged with green insulating tape to show it has been copied into the new loom. In addition, each wire, as it is installed in the new loom, is marked off on a copy of the wiring diagram . Thus, theoretically, when I have finished, every wire in the original loom will have a green tag at each end and every wire on the wiring diagram will have been marked off. It will be interesting to see how it works out in practice.

If I were to start again I think I would try to make a better job of the disposition on the board of the various elements, such as switches, relative to each other to help get the cable lengths correct and get a better feel for how it will all fit together on the car. Some things are a concern, such as where is the water temperature sender located? Also, the reverse light switch?

Anyway, that is how far I have got so far. I do need to get to see a 4th series in the flesh quite soon, but how the weather has turned. Unfortunately all I want to do is to stay in the warm. What the heck am I going to do when winter comes!!!!!

More to come, hopefully with some photographs.

                                           Andy   

Andy,

Great progress. 

Your fear of winter...do you not have a heater?  For drafts some old curtains over the doors?  I don't remember the workshop as impossibly large, but if there was a section where most of the work happened curtain that bit off?

The other thought is if the Aurelia is off the rotisserie to have it home.  Leave the cold and damp to Jim: he knows no difference and wouldn't understand kindness if you clubbed him half to death with it.

At least you're in the south, in town, and by the sea to keep things relatively civilised.

David

Andy

Move down here for the winter - Tim Heath has a lovely warm garage .....

Hope Mrs T is recovering well after the "ricambi non originali"

Well, Lynn's new knee seems to have decided that it likes its new home and she is now slowly bringing it into use.

I have managed a little more on the loom and have taken a few photographs to help illustrate the situation.

The photo. of the wiring diagram shows progress, the red lines, (in some cases they are not red, just very dark), are cables that have been replicated in the new loom. The old loom is now liberally sprinkled with green tags showing the cables have been laid in the new loom and it is possible to see how wiring for the front part of the loom, the fusebox and instruments/dashboard switches of the new loom is progressing. There is a notable lack of progress with the rear part of the loom. The cables through the right hand sill feed this and I have bought a 13 way multicore cable to use through the sill. This will be the last part of the loom to be completed, I may even do this in situ rather than make up the loom on the board, I will have to decide soon .... The 13 way multicore gives me enough spare capacity to provide high level rear brake, tail and indicator lights in the rear screen. David Laver has led the way with this!!!!

So, I hope the photographs give a feel for progress thus far .....

                                         Andy

A true Italian entanglement.....or is it the British version.....spaghetti junction!?

Fair play to you Andy for being as persistent and methodical on this part of the project, its the sort of thing you need to keep at or you'll loose the whole thread of it.


P

I meant to add that in the last photograph, which shows the mock fuse board and its backing board, things look significantly worse than it will do once I can install the loom in the car with the actual fuseboard. All the wires to the mock fuseboard have a long tail and of course are not terminated neatly as they will be in the final installation.

Every wire in the new loom is tagged at each end. The tag has written on it to what the wire is to be attached and what it has come from. I am hoping this will avoid at least some of the confusion that I anticipate when I remove the completed loom from the board and try to fit it in the car!!!!!!

                                Andy

Looks a terrific job.  For once I'm thinking my usual "what could possibly go wrong" and have no answer.

David

David, your 'what can wrong?' ......... I have a list!!!!

By the way, do you have a wiring diagram for the lights in the rear screen? I would love a copy if it is available.

                              Andy

'fraid not...

It has been wet here in Essex and mild too, great growing weather.

This is what happens when you neglect a B20 in those conditions ..... or could it be that it is time to assemble the AMR charity grotto in the Lynn Tait Gallery?

I will have to get it all cleared before Jim arrives on Saturday or there will be trouble ....

... and what have I learnt today ????

This .... unless you are a masochist, an idiot, drunk or are incapable of resisting a challenge, do not dismantle the indicator/dip switch of an Aurelia!!!!! It must be admitted that taking it to bits is not difficult, a punch and hammer to drift out the the pivot pin, ease out the whole assembly and then it just, well, springs apart!!!!!

Fortunately, I had a suspicion that somewhere some part of it would be sprung and was careful. Only one contact bullet escaped, I just managed to hold onto the other four, and the I was able to keep my eye on the escapee. It took less than 10mins to take it to bits and nearly an hour to re-assemble it!!!!! I count myself lucky that during the re-assembly on at least four occasions when one and once when two of the contact bullets sprung out I did not lose them. It was definitely a close run thing!!!!

So, what to do? The switch is now re-assembled and I am confident is working, The wiring had previously been renewed, but by cutting the wires about an inch from the switch and connecting new wires. I will simply repeat that with new wires and hope the original inch long pieces and the connections into the switch are sound. These original wires appear to be soldered into the switch and would have been a beast to renew.

If that does not work and the switch does need a full re-build I will only attempt it in a clinically clean and sealed area empty of everything except me, the switch and the minimum of tools and materials, so that I can be certain of finding the springs and bullet connectors when, inevitably, they make a bid (or bids) for freedom!!!

                                      Andy

So - something to do in a padded cell.

I suspect it might easily drive you mad !!!!!

I have to re-wire that part of the loom (the indicator/dip switch) and then the only part left to do, apart from odds and ends, will be that to the rear which passes through the right hand sill. I have a draw wire through there, pulled through when I removed the old loom, so hopefully the new 13 core cable will get through without too much of a struggle. What I need to determine is the full physical extent that the 13 core will have to cover. I believe at the rear it will be the left hand rear light cluster or possibly the left hand interior light. However, I am not so sure at the front. Most of the cables will terminate in the vicinity of the fuse box, but not all.

Currently I have two queries .....

1)   the wiring diagram shows one  brake light switch connection terminating at the main connector block with the other runs to terminal 1 on the indicator/brake light relay. The loom from the car has one wire terminating at the connector block whilst the other runs into the part of the main loom through the right hand sill to the rear lights. I need to get the brake lights separated from the indicators so that they can operate in accordance with UK requirements. Does anyone have a wiring diagram showing the modifications necessary to facilitate this? I am assuming that new relays will be required, probably for the brake lights, whilst the indicators will continue to function via the original relay.

2)   where is the sender for the oil pressure warning light located

Please can anyone help with either of these issues?

Jim is here tomorrow so we will be pushing on over several fronts.

More up-dates as and when things get interesting.

                                                                Andy

What about the Christmas tree lights, you'll need a relay for those as well ...

Things have progressed despite Santa putting in an appearance and taking up a day and a half of time I should have spent with Jim.

Anyway, Jim has been pushing on, I presented him with the radiator and petrol tank, both of which have had all attachments removed, cleaned, paint stripped and primed. I must find a radiator repair place to have the rad pressure tested and flow checked. Also, I will ask them to pressure test the petrol tank. The core of the rad is extremely dirty, I will blow it through with the compressor then soak it with solvent and pressure wash it.

I have decided that it is not a good idea to take the B20 to Wrexham at this time of the year. Why tempt providence when I will not be ready to get on with putting the mechanicals etc back into the shell until the spring/summer. So the respray will not be carried out until say, April.

I have been preparing the garage to receive the B20, the Gussie will go to the workshop when the B20 goes to the garage in order that I can carry out a thorough investigation of the state of the sills adjacent to the front axle fixing points. There apparently is a real risk of severe corrosion which may not be apparent from an external inspection. It will be out with the angle grinder to have a thorough inspection. That will mean engine out together with the radiator and probably the steering box.

Whilst all that is going on I can also give some time to preparing the ancillaries for the B20 and, more importantly, start on the engine rebuild. I have decided to do this myself, but of course any machining work will have to be done professionally. The engine is seized, but I am hoping that only one cylinder is badly affected, possible as there is evidence of a problem in the area of the rocker gear for just one pot. Anyway, i will strip it down and get a full assessment of the problems. When I last drove it in the 70s, it would produce a bit of blue smoke on starting after standing overnight, I am hoping this will prove to be no more than valve guides and seals. Time will tell!!

Photographs, the first three should be of the radiator, the 4th the radiator shutters in primer and the last the petrol tank stripped.

                                           Andy

A few hours hard graft there Andy, step by step, its coming along nicely


P

Can see where the work has gone - and nice easy "just put the hours in" stuff you don't need to concentrate on - unlike that loom!!!

Have fun.

David

Today saw a return to the workshop to try to push on with preparations for the swap.

Not absolutely necessary, a bit of a luxury really, but I decided that I would put the steering wheel back on to help when manoeuvring out of the workshop, onto the transporter and then into the garage at home. The car is lined up (with the aid of the dollies) to go out of the workshop, I had intended simply to heave the front wheels round to line it up to go onto the transporter and get it off at the other end and again, get it onto dollies to manoeuvre it in the garage. However, I have an untried person with the transporter and I do not want to get it wrong!

Nothing is straightforward, I had the steering shaft support or shroud in place, complete with a spacer, having assembled it using what I call commonsense. More like nonsense!! With the spacer (cast aluminium) in place the shaft did not project sufficiently from the support to allow the flange and steering wheel to go on. So, off with the support, remove the spacer, find shorter fixing bolts and replace the support. Then attach the flange with its rubber locating projection (which of course is perished) and finally attach the steering wheel. It took nearly 2 hours!! I thought I was going to pop into the workshop, take the steering wheel and flange off the shelf, remove the fixing nut from the end of the shaft, slide the flange into place, slide the wheel onto the splines, put back the nut and tighten it up. Simples !! Really, at my age I should know better!!!

Anyway it is done, I just have to agree a time and day with transporter man (when it is forecast to be dry) and get on with it.

More to follow, hopefully with photographs.

                                    Andy

So, the swap. This detailed in the Augusta Story thread, but here's a photograph on this link. The B20 has just arrived, the Gussie has been pulled out of the garage to go to the workshop, the Y10 is under the grey cover and the Appia is under the white(ish) sheet in the garage.

That was on the 20th January. Since then things have moved on a bit on several fronts, but for the B20 the story is about the engine. I have decided to do the rebuild myself, but obviously with a lot of help from specialists as necessary. The first task was to make an engine stand. Jim, as usual was very rude about it. Not the design or that much about the execution but more about the materials. I used 40mm SHS simply because it was what I had spare in the workshop. I can only just lift the finished stand and Jim reckons it would take a 2tonne engine without any problem. I did listen to Jim's comments about the castors, these are braked unlike those I put on the rotisserie. Jim is fed up with chasing the Gussie across the workshop every time he uses an angle grinder on it!!! He has no sense of fun!!! A couple of photos to show what I did.

                               Andy

.

All I have managed to do with the engine so far is start to clean the exterior, the clean/dirty demarcation line is due to lack of access when the engine was on the modified Sainsbury trolley base. Also, of course the engine is now on its stand and hopefully all will now be readily accessible.

Problems identified so far 1) core plug missing from top of head, how/why I do not know.
                                      2) corroded valve springs due to coolant leak from 1) above.
                                      3) head stud missing, assumed sheared in previous engine work.
                                      4) It is seized, presumably due to coolant leak from 1) above
                                       5) Block cracked on camshaft bearing casing    

Photographs are attached to illustrate 3) and 5), I will try to get another for 1) and 2). The cause of the number 5) problem will not be apparent for a while yet!!!

                                         Andy

Sorry, the last sentence should refer to problem 4). The cracked block photo should be rotated, but I think still illustrates the problem.

                                        Andy

Bootiful David, thank you.

                     Andy

Hello Andy,

Regarding point 5), I believe that what you are refering to as camshaft bearing casing is in fact the end of the waterchannel running along the cylinders, which is fitted with a long calibrated perforated halfpipe. That piece is usually coroded, discarded during rebuilds, and then missing. I believe it to play an important role in cooling the cylinders equally.
Strange - and a shame - that a previous owner or mechanic was able to crack that casing (in fact the crankcase casing)!

See attached photo, that shows the 2 water channels, one open, one plugged, on another B20 engine.

Andy,
The crack you show by the 'water tube' plug is fairly typical for an Aurelia block which has frozen solid. Bit of a devil to repair and you need to be careful about distortion on the top face of the block when making the repair. There isn't an awful lot of wall thickness there. The water tubes which Sebastian refers to and which are essential to cooling the rear cylinders properly were always aluminium and so over time inevitably corroded away but I believe that Cavalitto can now supply these in stainless steel for longevity.
You seem to have all sorts of interesting problems with your engine - is it the original one from when the car was built?
Chris

Just to add to Chris' and Sebastien's thoughts - the water "tube" is a long thin-walled tube, with big scallops out of it to clear the cylinders. There is also a small little connecting passage cast in the block at the back that links up both sides of the engine block. Check and make sure that isn't clogged up.

Well, now I know, it is not the camshaft bearing housing but the end of that notorious water tube. The water tube that, according to everything that I have read about Aurelia engines, will ALWAYS need replacement. I was prepared for water tube replacement, but not for welding the block!!!!

Attached should be a photograph of a hole, above the left spark plug, which should be sealed with a core plug, as is the one above the right-hand spark plug!!!! I am concerned that the hole is so corroded and thus non circular, that I will have considerable difficulty in getting a new core plug to seat properly. Is this a common problem? I hardly dare go on with the stripping and dismantling of the engine, what the heck will I find next????? However, go on I will, because I have no alternative!!!

Thank you all who have shared your expertise, I am sure I will be calling on it again in the not too distant future!!!

In answer to your question Chris, I believe it is the original engine. The heads have the same build number, but I have yet to find anything on the block. Now that the engine is on the stand I should be able to find something. Frustratingly we are away for the weekend so the earliest date for next playtime is Sunday 3rd May!!!! Is there an easy way to check whether or not I have the original engine?

Thank you again for your help,

                                          Andy

Recut and a larger plug? 

Sleeve? 

If the crack at the end of the water tube has to be welded anyway, perhaps get it built back up?

The stand is a whopper.  Unusual to see one with support both ends.  At least you're not going to knock it over.  My only concern is if you wheel it down the drive in one of your reshuffles and with all that weight it gets away from you.

David

I am pleased with the stand, the design is based on one seen at Chugga's. Necessary for the Aurelia engine as there is not a lot of solid stuff at the back end where one would expect some meat for the bell-housing. The Aurelia has just a light aluminium closing plate secured by smallish bolts which would not be sufficient to support the weight of the engine cantilevered off them.

I am hopeful that it will not run away from me, if it does I will just feel sorry for whatever it hits!!!!

It  should give me full access to all areas. I will not be able to get to the workshop to play until Sunday at the earliest. In the meantime I am saving my strength, both physical and mental!!!!



                              Andy

Whatever it rolled into and hit the engine would be fine...

Will you be able to use it as a test stand as well ? Maybe with one or two mods ....

Perhaps you could rig up some kind of chain drive to the wheels and get it to drive itself up the slope ?

Inspiring stuff, I will have to build something similar for the Aprilia engine rebuild.

I think it has the makings of a chassis rotisserie. 

Speaking of which something to spit roast on?  The strength of it a fatted calf as much as a suckling pig.

A couple of interesting thoughts there Simon, I will seriously consider the former, but please forgive me if I pass on the latter!!!!

I will see how I get on with the re-build. Hopefully today I will start dismantling it, a few boxes, a camera, a notepad, marker pens, tie-on labels and a clear head, that should be enough to allow a start!!!

                             Andy

I have had a great weekend away, feeling quite tired but ready to tackle the engine.

In Sandwich I came across Roses Garage. They do routine work, but apparently have a good reputation in classic car circles. In for work were 3 Lea Francis, I think they were 40s/50s, a 1950s Oldsmobile and an HRG. Also there was the owner's toy, a 1983 Williams F1 car and his two go-karts, capable of 150mph!!! I am sure someone in the Club must be aware of this establishment.

I chatted to their engine specialist and, quite  predictably, got onto the subject of my B20 engine, particularly the cracked block and the missing core plug. His response was to get the crack welded and, since I was having that done, I might as well have the core plug hole welded too. His alternative thought for the core plug problem would be to drill and tap the hole and screw in a new plug. Neither of these suggestions had crossed my mind. Add them to David's thoughts and suddenly I have options, a bit of a luxury!!

Now I must grasp the nettle and get started!!

                                     Andy

http://www.dover-express.co.uk/Unassuming-garage-owner-Grand-Prix-champion/story-15361757-detail/story.html

http://weekenderonline.net/richard-barber-garage-owner-and-racing-driver/

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2909611

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rikyu/6084731456/

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3270/2931349415_fc8251e8a0_b.jpg

Yesterday and today it was back to the workshop, only 4 hour sessions as family matters intrude.

The rocker blocks have been removed, not difficult, particularly as only 4 of the 12 nuts were restrained by the tab washers although all 6 washers were in place. The rearmost  oilway on each side was half choked with semi solid oil, I have no idea what may have caused that.

The next step must be to remove the heads. I did not have the sequence for undoing the head nuts so merely discharged most of a can of WD 40 onto the head nuts and into the cylinders. I then started to measure up for a  head puller. This will work on the simple principle of a plate secured to the head with the 6 studs which held the rocker blocks. The plate will be drilled and tapped at points directly above the head studs. Simply by screwing bolts through the plate onto the tops of the studs the head will be lifted. It is important to ensure that the bolts are screwed down evenly so that the head is lifted straight and true up the studs. Copious amounts of WD 40 will be applied to the studs once the nuts have been removed to provide lubrication and to try to break down the deposits caused by the electrolytic corrosion between the steel studs and the alloy head. Making the puller is slow work as it must be accurate. I am making a pattern in 10mm ply so that hopefully I will get real thing right first time.

More to follow ....

                           Andy

Hi Andy,

When my B20 was rebuilt a few years ago, the heads were seized solid and required some persuasion to remove them cleanly.

I have not got the paperwork to hand to check but my recollection is that heat was applied to loosen them off.  Several cycles of heating and then being left to cool naturally were required but they came off in the end. This may not be a feasible option for you but it is worth considering.


Charles

When one headgasket went last summer I believed that it was a simple matter. How wrong can you be? The solution we chose was to make a tool that could govern a grinder and then grind our way down through the studs. The studs are 8mm and the grinder was 7mm. We stopped grinding about 10 mm short of the surface of the engine block in orden to have something to grip when removing the studs from the engine. Even with that Little stud left the heads were difficult to remove, We had to use a steel rod of approx. 1 m to leaver the heads off. May I add that we did not damage anything? I shall be interested to see if you can apply enough pressure using your system.

When Martin Buckley wrote about his first Flaminia Berlina in "Staff car Sagas" his father had to remove the heads using a technique of cycles of heating the head followed by cooling the studs with drips of cold oil. I believe it took a long time but the heads finally came free with a satisfying clunk.

I have always been wary of heat and alloy castings and hope I will not need to venture down that route.

I did a lot of research into problems associated with removal of aluminium heads arising from reaction with the steel studs before deciding on this my favoured  method. Two methods that received the worst press were:-

1) lever the head off
2)  hitting the head with a soft headed hammer

The two methods that seemed to have the most support and also the best engineering rationale were obviously that which I will be using and also the use of a thin walled tubular drill bit which will fit over the stud but not cut into the head. This would cut through the corrosion products that effectively weld the studs to the head. Hours of searching on the web to source such drill bits resulted in abject failure. That is how I arrived at the chosen method!!!! Having removed the head fixing nuts I consider the tubular drill bit method sounds better in theory than it may turn out to be in practice. This  because, on my engine at least, not all the studs are central in the hole, indeed some appear to touch the head casting so, no matter how thin the drill bit wall is, it will cut into the casting!   

I have bought the steel plate for the puller, 12mm thick, although I am sure 10mm thick would be adequate and a drill bit for the 8dia bolts that will bear onto the ends of the head studs. Today I learnt that the tapping diameter for an standard 8mm bolt is 6.8mm. For 8mm fine it is 7mm, but I am sure you already knew this!!! Cutting 12mm plate with an angle grinder is fairly tedious, but it does beat a hacksaw. Having completed the plywood template I marked out the array of holes to be drilled, 6 at 8.5mm dia to secure the plate onto the head using the rocker block studs and 16 at 6.8mm dia to be tapped for 8mm dia bolts to bear onto the head studs. The plate fits snugly over the rocker block studs, I have yet to finish drilling the other 16, only then will I find out how accurate my setting out has been!!!! I will let you know .... and I will be honest, even if it turns out to be crap!!!! Hopefully more to report tomorrow.

                                              Andy

I said I would be honest ... as I said the 6 holes for the studs for the rocker blocks were spot on!! The 16 holes to align with the head studs were drilled and checked before being tapped. 15 were good, but one was appalling, a gross error, some 7mm out!!!! The advantage of a gross error is that there is no conflict between the correct location and the cock-up location. So that one hole was re-drilled and then the simple task of tapping the 16 holes for M8 studs. Simple yes, tedious yes, hard work, yes!!! However, it was done.  Then the 16 'pushing bolts' were screwed into the plate

Now to see if it will work!!! I screwed a nut onto each head stud, flush with the end of the stud to increase the bearing area for the 'pushing bolts' in the head puller. I said 15 were good, but they were not all perfect!!! Then it is just a matter of going round all the pushing bolts, bit at a time, to apply lift to the head, pulling it up the head studs. The first 3 photographs show the puller attached to the head ready for action, the 4th shows the head some 8mm free from the block!! It worked, eureka!!!! With the head pulled further up the studs I could get a sight of the top of the block, not good, see photograph 5. Photographs 6 and 7 show the top of the block and the head as they came apart, definitely not good!!! The last photograph show the block and cylinders etc after I had vaccuumed out the deposits!!! Definitely not good. Bear in mind this is the supposedly good side of the engine, it is the other bank of cylinders that has the failed core plug in the head!!!!

So, good news and bad news, I have a tool that should get the other head off without damage. Bad news is that I will probably need all the usual parts plus liners, pistons, shells, valves with guides etc etc. Oh well, I am enjoying myself!!!

I have attached the first 4 photographs with this post, the other 4 will be on a separate post .. file size issues!!

Tomorrow (if I am allowed) will see the other head removed and whatever that reveals !!!

The other photographs ....

Ingenious - I had faith .....

Looking forward to the next pictures.

ps "Our" (now Kennedy) B20 had a heli-coiled block and bolts to get around this whole head removal problem. It even meant that I could change a head at the side of the A1 after dropping a valve - but that is a different story.

Maybe worth thinking about ??

Take a look at the back right-hand stud in the last photograph, it is reduced to about half its diameter, ie about a quarter of the csa!!!!

What a brilliant method...

At least parts are available, and from a number of suppliers even in the UK.  Off the top of my head Kevin Macbride and Tanc Barratt as well as the obvious Omicron and Peter Harding.  Anyone else got supplier suggestions or experience buying direct from Italy or where ever the parts are made?  Is there a variation in quality or do all the parts have a single source?

As for "reasons to be cheerful" with the corrosion damage "getting some welding done" and "getting a lot of welding done" are surprisingly similar.  Getting it there, cleaned and inspected, agree to the work, it being the focus of a half day with much of that being preheat and whatever other preparation however much or little actual welding is needed.  Scrambled eggs on toast for one or four its much the same job.

For a one stop shop there's Jim Stokes.  When I looked they were good value on a per hour basis and were able to turn work round quickly.

http://www.jswl.co.uk/

The other "big name" that comes to mind is Serdi

http://serdi.co.uk/

Despite the name this company might be worth a call:

http://www.castironweldingrepairs.co.uk/

This one popped out of Google, only in Biggleswade:

http://www.stotfoldengineers.co.uk/stotfold_engineering_blog/2010/03/18/aluminium-welding-and-repair/

I'll have a look in the VSCC letter for who advertises.

Tim Burrett would be an obvious person to talk to.  How long until the Aurelia lunch this year to go and "ask about" for advice and experience?

Finding the right specialist is important and not easy.  Christo was good enough to share his regrets:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7594.15

The other cliché is the specialist who'll say "drop it off and I'll have a look at it when I get a chance" and it will still be there a year or so later.  It would be such a shame to loose momentum for other people's reasons than your own.

David

I forgot "our Aurelia" had bolts not heads.  It worked really well.  My story is having a head on and off and on and off trying to chase down what turned out to be a water leak through a crack/pin hole in an inlet port.  I fixed it with a bit of wire and araldite which held until Tim Burrett got it welded.

The job itself I can remember like it was yesterday.  What I struggle to visualise is the garage at the side of the house clear enough to run a full size car in and work on it.

David

From the VSCC newsletter adverts - and really local:

http://fieldsenginerecon.co.uk/cylinder-head-repairs/1293054

And now Andy you have fun of removing the studs from the block!
Hours of pleasure I have found.
Chris

Strewth Andy, thats looks like a lot of grief, but then again it is an Aurelia engine......hope you keep it moving on!


P

Is this head bolts thing a common modification? (Simon mentioned it) What are the advantages? I presume it makes removal easier as the bolts are turned thus breaking up corrosion deposits. Are stainless bolts advisable, does that reduce the corrosion problem? Copper-slip?

So many questions that really are about re-assembly and I have only just started to strip it!!!!!

As for a clear garage, there are occasions when that happens, but the majority of the time ..... not a chance!!!!

                                     Andy

Excellent photos and a very impressive result.  It just goes to show how the simple application of leverage in a careful way can produce the desired results. I can see that a lot of time must have gone into this, which must have made it all the more satisfying when the head came off.

Good luck with the other side!

Charles


 

Any time that you want to pop down to help you are more than welcome!!!

It seems to be a given that all the studs should be removed. Intuitively this seems right, but are there any hard and fast reasons why this should be. Obviously, if the block needs to be skimmed then there is a damned good reason. Some of the studs themselves are structurally unsound and therefore these must be replaced. Is there an overarching reason for wholesale replacement?

                            Andy

So, the other side .... that was the task for today.

Emboldened by yesterday's success, but fearing that this side, the right-hand side with the missing core plug, would be in worse condition than the left-hand side, it was with some trepidation that I set the puller on the head his morning. Things seemed to be going my way, there was less resistance to movement, the pushing bolts required less effort and the reluctance in the rear inner corner found on the left-hand side was absent. Then, with the head lifted by some 30mm it was possible to get a good view of the tops of the cylinders, no piles of white powdery deposits that were apparent yesterday, maybe this would not be too bad after all. At least I could now hope for no worse!!! Having more confidence with the second head, it was quite quick work to get the head  75% of the way up the studs. Thereafter it has to be a hammer job, but impact is on the pulling plate not the head itself and the risk of damage is minimised. Jim was there to help yesterday, but today I was on my own, so trying to balance the upwards force along the length of the head was not easy, but suddenly it was off and, to my relief, I did not drop it!! Now the surprising news, the cylinders and head appeared to be in sound serviceable condition. Closer inspection later revealed that the middle liner and piston might have to written off but the other two cylinders look quite redeemable. The head looks as though it should all be standard work, I will have to check the valves, valve guides and springs to see if they are within tolerance. Then I will be able to start writing the shopping list!!!

Photographs, RH block, RH head, block with both heads removed

A cautionary note ....

If anyone decides to remove a head using this system I think a good way to start making the puller is to borrow a cylinder head. This should be used to set out the drillings necessary for securing the plate to the rocker gear and those for the head studs. The longest and most tedious task in my endeavours was the setting out and checking and checking and then correcting the cock-ups!!! Once made, the puller is so simple in use. One other thing, do not underestimate the length needed for the pushing bolts. These must be threaded their whole length. I used 70mm bolts, 120mm would have been better and would have given a controlled push to the head until it was off the studs thus obviating the need for the hammer. Yes, the hammer worked, but longer bolts would have been better!!

                                        Andy

Good to have a sturdy stand when hammering?  Glad of the brakes on the casters?

When at Brooklands I was looking at the aero engine stands with you in mind.

I think it's probably not advisable to use stainless steel studs or bolts due to their different tensile strength.
Torque settings would not be the same ....... I seem to think stainless steel is not as strong as carbon steel
due to a lack of carbon I suppose.

Congratulations. This is an intelligent way of solving the problem. Applying a steady pull is always preferable. I will not doubt for a second that all studs will have to be renewed. A can of cooling spray may prove helpful when you remove them. In your case I would examine the threads in the engine block. It is not difficult to fit Helicoils.

Thank you Jon and Niels. All this information will be salted away for rebuild time!!!

                               Andy

Andy,
Congratulations on getting the head off with a strong dose of brainpower and logic involved, besides muscle power. ;)
I would have thought it should be a given that the studs be replaced, there is no way of knowing if the years and corrosion have affected the strength of them, I have never reused head bolts, although I have left old studs in and reused them; but in this case it would be good practice, and for your peace of mind for the future,to 'bite the bullet'.

Brian
8337

Fulvia experience (alloy head on cast iron block) is Lancia used a high grade steel bolt - probably 10.9, then Fiat downgraded to 8.8 and the wise use 12.9 (cap bolts) to provide head gasget seal with higher torque down. Lower grade bolts have been known to lose their heads and stick on their shafts if the engine has been neglected. In your case Andy, "neglected" is an understatement! Well done for such an ingenious removal. I hope the corrosion that has taken place has not totalled the chance of recovering the engine. I doubt it would get to such a neglected state again so bolts could be a good idea. btw Fulvia had two bolt slightly thicker to act as dowels to position the head correctly so no clearances on these!!

Are you sure I should replace the head studs??? They cannot be that bad surely ...... or maybe they can ....

                                Andy

In fairness, that was the only stud out of the 32 that was obviously corroded. However, as Brian says, you cannot be sure what they may be like after all these years. Therefore I will replace them all, including the one that was sheared off at the level of the top of the block on some previous occasion!!

                             Andy

Andy,
These days after rebuilding many Aurelia engines over the years, my studs of choice are used original Lancia ones which exhibit NO signs of corrosion or necking. I have bought and used new studs from all the reputable suppliers over the years and had problems with all of them one way and another.
Chris

I thought I ought to try to keep up the momentum so today it was back to the workshop to start on the heads.

Before that, time to get the valve spring compressor from the garage. This has been kicking around and getting in the way for, literally, decades. Yes, you've got it, couldn't find the bl**dy thing anywhere!!!!!! S*d it, Machine Mart is up the road, I will buy another.

I set the first head up and attacked it with a wire mop brush in an electric drill at about 700rpm, brilliant. Then a 'pencil' wire brush in the drill to get into the nooks and crannies. The other head was given the same treatment and both looked a lot more respectable, but I was very concerned about the extent of the corrosion to the hemispherical steel combustion chamber insert for the rear cylinder of the left hand head. I was looking for an off-cut of 1mm plate to clean out some of the corrosion products when I found the valve spring compressor, miraculous!! Please note this was BEFORE I went out to buy a new one, even more miraculous!!!!!

So, with my new toy I set about the valves. I have not stripped a head for probably 30 years, but it all came back to me and in a very short time I had all twelve valves out and bagged up. A worrying moment when I could not find the valve stem caps for the exhaust valves clearly listed in the parts book ....... but wait, that is for the B12, a quick check, thank goodness, not listed for the B20!! Out with the electric drill and more cleaning up.

Two main worries at the moment:- firstly, on the LH head, the corrosion in the combustion chamber insert mentioned above and secondly, on the RH head, two of the bosses onto which the inner valve springs are seated are corroded and cannot perform as required. Two worries, two questions, is it possible to replace or repair the combustion chamber insert? Also, is it possible to build up and then machine the valve spring bosses. If the answer to one or both of those questions is no, then I will be looking for one or two heads!!

The photographs show the heads after the preliminary clean, then the heads with the valve gear removed and finally, a close up of the corrosion to the combustion chamber insert.

I will add a little more later, mainly requests for help and advice ...

                                  Andy

Andy,
that looks a lot better!
Nice to see another original cast ally workmate being put to good use, though to be fair yours looks like it's had a harder life than mine ::)

Brian
8227 8)

Just on the subject of studs versus bolts, it seems obvious to me that one should stay with studs. Original studs have a coarse thread to screw into the block ( which is not disturbed very often) and a fine thread for the nuts to hold the head with the correct torque. The torque settings (and sequence) are important and using a bolt with coarse thread into a helicoil in the block will not be as good as originally conceived by Lancia. Inserts are preferred to helicoils for the block which means more work......but one then has total confidence in using the correct torque settings. I remember once torquing the final nut on a B20 head on an old helicoiled stud and the bigger pulled out.
Where bolts/inserts are very handy is with the exhaust manifold/cylinder head joint especially for where tubular manifolds are used. I have spent many hours tightening these up using the original studs and brass nuts wiggling a non standard manifold into place with the steering column in the way on the rhs. The heads however must have proper steel inserts to do this, not just helicoils so I only have it on my race car engines where head or engine changes can often be under time pressure.
Just my opinion, and of course Lancia engineers always knew what they were doing and why.
Chris

Today, despite the lure of the sun, was another day in the workshop.

Off came the rear alloy cover plate, the front prop shaft coupling and the flywheel. Then the starting handle dog, surprisingly not a battle and the timing chain cover plate.  First question. Should there not be timing marks on the camshaft sprocket and the crankshaft sprocket or is the cam timing set from scratch on rebuild?

Second question, is there an easy way to remove the head studs? Chris' post suggests I have a battle on my hands!!! I have sprayed WD40 on them several times over the past two days and have given them a few taps with a hammer to try to break the corrosion products and get the WD40 into action!!! The good old 'two nuts locked together' MO has so far undone five studs and failed on another five, only another 21 to try. Ah, yes, there is one more stud ... that is the one that had been sheared by others and ignored!! In blissful ignorance I had been driving the car in that state ... that makes one wonder exactly how critical the torque settings and tightening sequence is!!!

Just three photographs ..... 1) flywheel in 'as found' alignment
                                         2) flywheel with Lancia marks in alignment. Note this is 60 degrees different to the 'as found' alignmnet
                                        3) timing chain, this surprised me being so compact

More to follow as and when ...

                                                       Andy

Re stud removal, I have had success with one of these :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-14156-2-Inch-Heavy-Duty-Extractor/dp/B0001K9Q1S/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1431324510&sr=8-4&keywords=stud+removal+tool (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-14156-2-Inch-Heavy-Duty-Extractor/dp/B0001K9Q1S/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1431324510&sr=8-4&keywords=stud+removal+tool)

Can't you push the engine outside and enjoy both the workshop and the sunshine ?

Thank you Simon, I have seen these, but have been wary. One to consider.

As for working in the sun, the workshop opens directly onto the public highway, so not an option. I usually have the doors wide open and this is great in the morning as they face east, but not so good for the rest of the day. The disadvantage is the number of times I am interrupted by passers by, Although there have been some very interesting characters .......

                                         Andy

Regarding the cylinder heads, apart from the corrosion the other major concern these days is what thickness the heads are........I.e. how much has been planed off them?
Good useable 2.5l cylinder heads are few and far between these days and if replacements were ever made they would be expensive. It's not a good idea to start using thicker head gaskets to compensate.
I am away and can't remember the critical minimum overall head thickness but can  I suggest you measure them Andy?
Chris

Apart from the corrosion issue, what is also v important and potentially terminal ref the heads is their thickness....I.e how much has been planed off.
Good useable 2.5l heads seem to be in very short supply these days and you can't just use a thicker head gasket to compensate.
I am away at the moment and can't remember the critical min overall head thickness but I suggest oh measure your heads Andy.
Chris

Any chance of introducing a bit of localised heat?

Brian
8227 8)

Thank you Chris, I had not thought about that little concern!!! I will measure them tomorrow. Maybe it is just as well at this stage that I do not know what the minimum acceptable thickness is. What exactly becomes a problem if too much is skimmed off?

I think the corrosion/erosion to the steel combustion chamber insert is quite visible and comments are sought. Attached is a photograph of one of the corroded/eroded inner valve spring bosses. The spring has no proper seating and therefore will not provide the  correct amount of return force to the valve. The outer spring seats are not affected. Some of the washers that sit between the valve springs and their seats are badly rusted and I will try to source replacements. This affects both the inner and outer springs.

More to follow

Today was a let's see how many studs we can get out day.

In short, I cannot remember what the final score was!!  However, the day went something like this. All studs, except the badly corroded one have been treated with WD40, several times, tapped with a hammer, several times and then the two nuts locked together treatment.

The result ......

Still resisting all attempts 8
Not attempted                 1  (the corroded one)
Sheared by others            1
Sheared today by me       1
Freed                             21

Prognosis:-  one of the 8 still resisting will undoubtedly shear, it is necked by corrosion at the level of the top of the block. I will be lucky to get the corroded one to shift, I will not attempt this until I get the tool recommended by Simon as using the two nut method will simply shear the stud in the corroded area. Of the 7 others still resisting, I will persevere, but think I will probably be lucky to shift even 4, the rest will shear!!! So it is likely that I will have at least 8 sheared studs to deal with. The best scenario I have read of so far is to grind the stud down so that it is flush with the top surface of the block, determine the centre, centre punch and drill out, eventually picking out bits with a point and cleaning everything up with a tap. Any other suggestions are warmly welcomed!!

                                          Andy

Chris,

With an over-skimmed head is having low compression pistons made an option?  Its desperate and expensive but might permit the use of otherwise excellent heads.  Perhaps a better option than getting into wholesale rebuilding of rotten castings...

All,

I've a memory from somewhere of an Aurelia that dropped a valve having a new combustion chamber machined from solid and welded in...it could have been another car entirely or merely an insert shell...its the sort of story that someone at the Aurelia lunch would remember, or you'd know 100pct it was my imagination.

Andy,

If the logistics work between us I've that tool you could borrow.  The one advantage is that it grips the stud lower than the two nut method but I'd say its little better than something vicious from the plumbing tools department. 

If it came to drilling out, if it was me, I'd leave them as "damage to address" until you were sure that the heads were keepers, even then I'd be tempted to add it to the jobs for the machinist to attend to after welding. It will be a long enough list that a couple of stuck studs will be neither here nor there and you've plenty else to get on with.

David

...and well done indeed shifting that many so far!!!

Thank you for your thoughts David.

Did you see the tool suggested by Simon, that could grip right at the bottom of the stud. I hope to get one of those.

As for removing the sheared studs, leaving it for someone else to do sounds very tempting. As you say, I will have quite a list for the machine shop, maybe they could chuck those in gratis!!!!

I will see how I get on with those remaining.

As an aside, I have had more success on the side where a generous coating of Red Hermatite had been applied. Presumably this sealed the stud/block interface and thus helped keep the corrosion to a minimum.

Tomorrow is another day!!!!

                      Andy

Same tool.  Its not nice but its a bit more polite than big b*stard grippers of whatever description.

Brian, thank you for your comments and advice throughout this saga. Firstly, the Workmate, I have two of these, one was my father's, the other belonged to my father-in-law. Both were retirement gifts ... not sitting on one's bottom upon retirement seems to be an inherited trait.

Heat!!!! I am by nature somewhat cautious. In all my delving into the web looking for advice I have found many have suggested heat. An equal number caution against it for studs in alloy castings. Cast iron is not a problem, but alloy is. Therefore I will steer clear of heat, at least for the time being.

                             Andy

David, I've tried the big b*astard grippers. A waste of time and energy getting them out of the tool box!!!!

                                                Andy

There is one problem with the stud extractor suggested: it needs room, and that room is not available with all the studs. You can also get stud ectractors which look like box spanners. They need less room. Before attempting to remove the stubborn studs I'd spray them with a cold spray. It cools them down so they shrink. If you grind the studs down so they are level with the engine surface I think that you should make a guide and then mill your way down using a 7mm mill. If you are very precise you can use an 8mm one, but then you'll definitely have to fit Helicoils or some other sort of thread. Perhaps this operation is better left to a machine shop.

Andy,

Congratulations on your ingenious and effective way of lifting the heads – very clever! I was a bit sceptical about whether or not it would work and I guess I was influenced by horror stories from the past when other folk had enormous problems in getting the heads off engines that had stood for a while. I recall 30 years ago someone hanging a B20 engine from one head while banging the block to try and get it to move. And over 40 years ago knowing a friend with an Appia who had a long tubular trepanning cutter made to slide over the studs and cut away the corrosion that was sealing it on.

A better design of stud extractor is the type that goes over the stud with rollers that tighten against the shank – see photos. The one I have is 8mm – I am unlikely to be using it for the foreseeable future (sadly!) and you are welcome to borrow it. I can easily post it to you.

Also of interest might be this website, which gives a good account of drilling out broken studs and other aspects of B20 engine rebuild:http://lanciaaurelia3c.nl/3C-GB-V6%20Aurelia%20Mania%202.pdf

Colin

Sunday and Monday were the 'attack the studs' days. Yesterday was a day off from the car as I wasside tracked to my wife's shop due to staffing problems, Add to that a sickness bug elsewhere in the family and I did not even have time to think about the car let alone do any work!!!

Today was different. Not the studs, both David and Colin are sending me a stud tool so I thought best to leave things until they arrive. It will be interesting to see how they compare with each other and also the two nut method used thus far.

No, today was remove the sump day. I had already removed the timing chain cover  so the front had nothing connecting the block and sump. At the rear of the engine I removed the oil seal and a phone call to Morris Parry revealed the need to remove the M8 bolt at the rear of the sump. That done I undid the the nuts on the M6 studs that secure the sump to the block. In doing so two studs came out and, oh dear, I sheared a stud!!! The sump then came free to reveal the crankshaft etc, all of which was coated in oil and looked in good order. A real change from all the problems found in the heads and cylinders!!!! That was as far as I got, hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get to the big ends, well some of them!!! Quite how I will get to the others remains to be seen!!!! I should have checked that before I left this afternoon.

A couple of photographs .....

More to follow ...

                      Andy

That's an encouraging sight!!!

Have you a photo of the extra M8 bolt at the rear you had to remove?  What is it for or attach to?

Must say a vast improvement in condition compared to the top end. You may have to resort to magic potions to free the pistons before the crank can rotate for access to the other big ends....

Magic potions or a big hammer!!!!!

Original cocacola works wonders!

Must admit looking at the studs to remove I wouldn't be happy using the two nut method ,as I think with the length of stud and all the thread at the top, you might break the stud.
Both of the special tools grip lower down, and while I like Colin's tool which is no doubt ideal for normal removal of  good condition studs, I think the other has less chance of breaking a stud, bearing in mind how low down it grips the stud.
Brian
8227 8) 8)

I have one of David's stud extractors and it has been ok but I don't like the fact that it is exerting its pressure slightly eccentrically..if you get what I mean. Colin' s meanwhile does not have this problem and I must buy one.
 In my experience, if a stud is going to break it does so either where it is necked due to corrosion just above the block thread.......or where there is a slight weak point just above the block thread! The same place.
Chris

I also liked the look of Colin's - and it was hard work resisting buying a set.

David

I agree Chris but I think applying pressure right at the top of the stud is more likely to break the stud as oppossed to applying the pressure at the base of the stud, and I take your point about the eccentricity of Dsvids extractor.

Brian
8227 8)

What I don't like about mine is the teeth.  It will be interesting to peer down Colin's type and hear how well it grips. 

In terms of it applying force off centre perhaps having it sit absolutely flush on the deck, or on some sort of spacer plate, might provide support against a bending load?

Here is the best photograph I have of the bolt. It is so close to the rear end of the sump that you can see it in this end on view!!!

I know not what the heck it is for!! It bolts into the centre of the rear main bearing cap.

                         Andy

Today I gave the studs (and myself) a rest and decided to tackle the big ends and mains. The main reason of course is that I do not want to do any more on the studs until I have the tools from David and Colin. The good news is that they arrived today. The bad news is that I now have no excuses (apart from the usual laziness) and must try to get the last little beggars out tomorrow. I agree totally that the eccentric load on the stud using Davids tool is an issue. However, this problem does virtually disappear if the tool is positioned at the base of the stud and, more importantly, if the turning load can be applied at the level of the gripping knurled wheel. As the tool requires the use of a socket set 1/2 inch drive this is not possible, but one should avoid the use of an extension piece. More to follow.

                                Andy

Feel free to get a pipe wrench on the outside of the tool to apply the load low.  I'm not at all worried about the plating being damaged or any other marking on it.  Its MUCH more important that it improves your chances as best as it can.  Battle scars will be carried with pride.

Also you are more than welcome to modify it, perhaps drill a hole (or two) in it to take a bar?  Maybe grind flats on for a really big spanner or to grip it better?

Also don't be so hard on yourself that the studs are the priority.  It all needs doing, there's no critical path, any progress is progress, its a hobby and supposed to be fun etc etc.

David

I just remembered the other way to shift a stud - weld or braze a nut near the base...  It assumes you're going to throw it away after which I think would have to be the case after using a toothed extractor on it.

Colin,
Your Koken extractor is a quality tool. Necessary for this application I would say and better than Draper etc. Where in the UK are they available?
Chris

David, thank you for the carte blanche to trash your tool, I will do my best ...... not to!!! Seriously, I am looking forward to tomorrow and to seeing how the tools perform. It promises to be an interesting day!!

Not that today was not interesting!!! I am trying to get my head around the cylinder numbering system. I am aware that things are not consistent and have been using my own unique system that, so far as I am aware, does not accord with any accepted system. I simply number the cylinders in each bank 1 to 3 with 1 being at the front and designating the bank, either left or right.

Today I inverted the engine and started on the big ends and the mains. The mains are numbered 1 to 4, with 1 being at the front. However, the big ends are numbered 1 to 6 with 1 being at the rear of the engine. At present I am marking the big ends using my system, for the mains I am using the marked system.

All the caps to the mains are off, a moment of panic as a spacer (shoulder according to TAV 4, item No. 17) from one of the main bearings dropped into the block. I managed to retrieve that, but then realised there should be two, one each side of the bearing!!! After a frantic few moments I located the other one, stuck to the side of the bearing cap!!!!

Now the big ends!!! The nuts to the big end caps for cylinders 2 and 3, both left and right (my nomenclature) were all readily accessible and easily undone and the caps removed, numbered and stored safely.

Then time to look carefully at the journals. I felt they were not at all bad, until I looked at No.4 main!!! See photograph!!! Quite how bad this is I am not sure, I just do not have the experience. That is one for an expert. Also, I have not yet been able to measure the journals .... I must hope that they have not previously been machined down to their limits!!!!

In addition I carefully marked the crank and camshaft sprockets before I removed the timing chain. It should help with re-assembly, but will need careful checking.

Let us see what tomorrow brings !!!

                                          Andy

Photographs ... crank and camshaft marking. Rear main bearing journal scoring

This is apparently one of the standard solutions to the problem.... It addresses two issues, firstly it provides something on the stud on which a spanner (or similar) can get purchase. Secondly it provides heat to the stud/casting interface which will always help in freeing the stud.

I am hoping that I will not need to pursue this option!!!

                                                            Andy

In the last photo with the scoring, is it just confined to that central stripe?   

If the side sections are fine that's a very generous bearing area and my instinct is that it wouldn't matter a jot.

At BWE one day we put a 1600HF Fulvia engine next to an Aprilia engine and the Aprilia had perhaps twice the bearing surface.  It really doesn't need it all... My memory isn't good so I may have overstated it.  The crank case also was much more chunky.  I wonder how the bearing area and crankcase would compare to a modern bike engine of the same power? 

David

Of course you don't know until you measure it but so far that looks like very good news with the crank.

David

Just because its such a beautiful thing any chance of some photos of the sump inside and out?

By way of contrast the extent a pressed tin sump has to be modified to come close:

http://www.ralloy.com/images/RAL057xLarge.jpg

David, reference the scoring in the main journal. It appears to be merely that central stripe. I agree with you that there should be more than adequate bearing area ignoring that. The other journals that I have inspected seem good, maybe some ridging, whether or not it is significant I really do not know. I will have to have them checked. Also I must measure the journals, hopefully there is enough meat on them to allow for any necessary work!!!

Now, stud removal tools, both did the job excellently. If I had realised how good they were I would have bought something without going down the two nut route. David's (Draper) tool was more cumbersome  and suffered with the disadvantage of the eccentric loading but fitted in amongt the studs and performed well. The Koken looks and feels a better tool, but I am sure is more expensive, especially if you are working with different sized studs as the tool is suitable for one size only, The Draper would operate on studs from 3mm to 24mm (my assessment of the range, not official figures). In my opinion the Draper would be suitable for the occasional user, whilst the Koken would be worth the extra cost for someone who frequently finds themselves attacking studs. The two nut method is best left for emergencies only!!

My present situation, the score is .....

                  Sheared by others           1
                  Sheared by me                5
                  Successfully removed     26

Not too bad. I will get the stud stubs removed by the machine shop when all the other work is done.

The biggest surprise was the badly corroded stud,  the Draper removed it easily. The Draper is almost always set at the base of the stud, in this case well below the corroded section. I am sure the Koken would have done an equally good job, but would have required the top of the stud to be cut off to allow the tool to grip at the base of the stud. If I had used the two nut method I would have just sheared the stud in the corroded area.

Photographs ... Koken in use, Draper in use, block without all those sticky out bits!!!! The red and yellow lines around the block in the last photograph are to secure the crankshaft in place. All the main bearing caps have been removed plus the big end caps for the four rearmost cylinders. Theoretically the crankshaft is held in place only by the big end caps of the two front cylinder and could move. This would induce a bending moment in the con rods, not advisable!!! Jim says I am overcautious!!!

                                        Andy

Good result – well done!

Just one comment: The concentric Koken tool is designed to fit over the stud and go right down snug close to the block, with actuation then by either a tubular box spanner working on the flats, or an open ended spanner rather than a socket.

I think the journals look OK, subject to measuring up.

Colin

Thank you Colin, I thought it was excellent even though I did not know how to use it. Hopefully I will not ever need to tackle these again, but if I do then I will do it properly!!!

                       Andy

Well done indeed...  As for ties round the crank can you be too careful?

Was the Koken more gentle on the studs?  Does it bite or crush?

David

I think bite rather than crush. It was certainly very effective, The fact that today I managed to shear 4 studs today is not a reflection on either the Draper or Koken tools Rather that all the studs I tackled today, with the exception of the badly corroded one, were the most seized, having previously resisted the two nut method!!!

Tomorrow is get the crankshaft off and tackle those seized pistons. Jim will be round to play, so definitely there will be a lot of abuse and hopefully there will be a lot of progress!!!

                                       Andy

The weekend started with Jim and I determined to get the engine stripped. I had not managed to get access to the big end bolts to the front two cylinders. Jim produced from his tool bags a set of Irwin Grip Bolt Removers and a 'wobble extension' for the socket set. The combination of the two allowed the access problem to be overcome and the nuts were removed with ease and without damage to the nuts. I was rather more than flabbergasted with the ease with which he managed this!!

It was then possible to tap the pistons away from the crank shaft which allowed the crank shaft to be removed. The next task was to complete removal of the pistons and liners. These glib statements do not give any indication of the reality of the situation. A 12mm bar was used as a drift on the underside of the pistons to move the con rods from the crank shaft. Out of the six pistons only one moved within the liner, the others remained stuck in the liner and it was the liners themselves that moved in the block. Even the one that moved did so only for 20mm and then stuck and the liner itself moved. Having removed the crank shaft it was easy to remove the pistons and con rods complete with their liners from the top of the block. The last few fixings etc were removed from the block and that now awaits cleaning. That took all of Saturday, Sunday was time for Jim to get back to the Gussie shell, in particular the floor under the driver's feet which had been very badly patched. I removed all the engine parts from the workshop. Even though it will be totally rebuilt, I do not want the debris resulting from the cutting and grinding operations on the Gussie shell getting into the engine.

So Jim made a lot of mess and a lot of noise whilst I continued with the delicate task of separating the pistons from the liners. I do not have a photograph of this but I think you will get the idea if I say it involves a 40mm dia. tubular steel drift, the liner balanced across the jaws of a vice and a 4lb club hammer!!!!!!!!! I have managed to separate three pistons from their liners and removed the gudgeon pins thus freeing the con rods. Needless to say, new pistons and liners will be provided. As can be seen in the photographs, one of the con rods is bent, that too will need to be replaced. The good news is that the crank shaft journals have not previously been ground, although it may be that such work will now be necessary. I have yet to remove the plugs from the ends of the cooling tubes, Clive Beatty suggests they should be broken to remove them, I am investigating options to remove them undamaged!!! That is where we are at the moment, more to follow ....

The first photograph show the liners projecting from the block and the second the bent con rod with its piston. The state of this piston is typical of the others removed so far !!!!

                                    Andy

THE news here is "the crank shaft journals have not previously been ground".  Brilliant...

Shame about pistons and liners, but no surprise and "off the shelf" for all no small expense.  If budget becomes an issue there are excellent second hand sets kicking about from all the rebuilds where "having gone this far it seemed stupid not to put in new".

David

What would cause a bent con rod to start with? Hitting valves?

I think hitting the valves would bend the valve first and have left a valve shaped dent in the crown of the piston. Would the piston seizing do it? Or would that be obvious from the state of the sides of the piston?

I have no idea what caused the bent con rod. I had no incident in the time that I was driving it. Hydraulic lock on that one cylinder could be the cause ..

                          Andy

Today I managed to free the last two pistons from their liners. One was so tight that I had knocked a hole in the top of the piston before I managed to drive it out!!!

So that is the engine totally stripped, now I need to find a reputable place to take the parts to get a professional judgement on what should be replaced and what is still serviceable.

My gut feeling is that the valves and their guides are suitable for continued use but the rest of the 'normal' rebuild items should be replaced. The sump seems undamaged, the block needs welding and the heads are a nightmare. One thing is certain, it will not be cheap!!!!

                              Andy

I have sent my Aprilia engine to Serdi in W London (recommendation from David L) for the same "professional judgement" - will let you know how it goes .....

So it has been 10 weeks since I lasted posted on this thread, just where does the time go?

I can assure you that I have not been idle ..... I still have to take the crank to be checked over, but things have moved on in other areas. By virtue of a lot of effort and countless hours on the internet I have managed to put together a stash of parts that will allow me to rebuild the engine!!! This was made easier by my decision that I would not attempt to find secondhand heads, but find a way to repair the originals. The other parts are relatively easy to source, albeit some are a tad expensive. The operative word here is 'relatively'!!! However, it can be done.

That was mainly a desk top study, but it also involved a bit of travelling including a trip to Italy. In between all this I continued to strip and clean various parts. There was over 12mm of sludge in the sump!!! It will be interesting to see what is in the oilways of the crank when I remove the plugs!!! I did not restrict my efforts to the engine, I have opened up the gearbox and made a thorough inspection, no obvious damage and not an excessive amount of swarf on the magnetic sump plug. There were chatter marks on many of the teeth, but nothing that should cause me too many problems, I hope!!!

The latest task has been to strip the drive shafts. I am lucky in that all the rubber boots, despite being extensively cracked and in need of replacement, have managed to retain oil and therefore there has been no excessive wear in either the pot joints or the outer UJs. I have sourced new needle rollers and seals so they will be rebuilt and set on the shelf for installation in due course.

That is where I am at the moment, I do need to find an engine man I feel I can trust to do the job properly.

I have started on a shopping list for Cavalitto .... it will be interesting to see how long it eventually gets!!!

                                                Andy

PS the Gussie is also progressing so, if you are interested, do have a look at that thread.

Getting there Andy, its a slow slog but worth it in the end!

P

In your shoes I'd at least visit Jim Stokes empire (and can I come too!!!).  I never got as far as having them do any work for me but by research and reputation the hourly rates used to be reasonable as was the turn round. 

The other part of their reputation is just how far things can add up but that's the two-way-street of being specific about exactly what you want them to do and what you'll do yourself rather than just giving them a box of bits and "whatever it needs" as their brief.

Omicron bills also have the reputation of being several pages longer than expected but they are also very generous with time on the phone for inquiries and are also (certainly used to be) open to doing distinct and limited work on individual components.

Can anyone else here easily ask the question on the VSCC forum?  While I am a member I've never used it.

David

Oh dear! Where has the time gone???

I have been busy, but not wholly on the B20. The Gussie has been a distraction and getting a lot of attention.

The engine has been weighing heavily on my mind. I have had the crank checked and what looked like an untouched original crank has actually had quite a bit of work done to it. The main journals have been been ground, metal sprayed and finally ground back to original specification. The problem is that the metal spraying has started to fail adjacent to the main journal oilways!  I must decide whether to have the sprayed metal  ground off, then have the crank built back up using the submerged arc technique and ground back to original specification or to take a chance and use it as is. The big end journals are in good condition and do not require work.

The heads and the block have been left with an engine specialist. The news so far is that the block is ok, the snapped studs have been removed and it is ready to have the liners reinstated. The damaged valve spring seats in one of the heads have been machined back, new seats made and installed. The valve guides have been sleeved, a light skim and that head is ready for action. The other head with the severely damaged combustion chambers is a different matter. They are still working on it .... the valve seats have been removed and the weakened areas machined back. Then it is a matter of welding in new material, machining back, welding in more material, machining back and repeat and repeat and thus slowly building up the damaged areas. Hopefully this will be successful, but there is no guarantee!!!! Time will tell.

I hope to get some news soon and will up-date as and when ....

                                                         Andy

This week I got fed up with removing rust, paint and general muck from hard to reach parts of the Gussie and decided I needed to make something. So why not something easy like the petrol tank filters in the B20? These take the form of mesh cylinders around the main and reserve petrol pick-up pipes. They are item 9 on TAV 11.

The photographs show the poor state of one of the originals, that is the good one!!! Basically they are a cylinder of brass gauze supported on a brass frame attached to the drain plug with a brass cap on the open end through which the petrol pick-up pipe passes. The whole assembly is soldered together, so this should not be too difficult eh??

In the original the brass frame is stamped out of thin sheet brass, as is the top cap. I decided to use a brass tube and to cut slots in it as the frame and to fabricate a replacement brass cap from two brass washers, 2.5mm diameter copper wire to separate them and a 2mm thick Viton washer to seal it. Having the 2mm Viton washer between the two brass washers which are 2.5mm apart allows the washer to move laterally to accommodate any out of trueness in the pick-up pipes. It took something like 12 hours to make the first one. That allowed for working out the best MO, finding the tools and generally faffing about .... the second one took less than 3 hours!!!

I first made the brass frame, I drilled it out roughly and then cleaned the slots up with a small mill in a Dremel type tool. The brass gauze was cut to size, the washer was cut from a sheet of Viton (I could not find any to buy on the internet) and the copper wire was cut and bent to size. All I had to do was solder it all together!!! No problem!!!  I started off with my usual high power butane blowtorch, but that was too fierce so I dug out the 'normal' one. That comfortably soldered the frame to the drain plug. Then I made the top seal from the brass washers and the 2.5mm dia copper wire. Not so easy, the slot into which the Viton washer had to fit kept getting filled with excess solder. Obviously I had to omit the Viton washer whilst soldering the two brass washers and copper wire assembly as it would have been destroyed by the heat of the operation. Eventually I was successful and a trial assembly with the Viton washer proved all was ok. Then I had to solder the washer assembly to the brass frame .... that was when the washer assembly fell to bits , the solder having been melted again!!! This happened another time before I eventually got the two stuck together. The final step was to solder the brass gauze to the frame. Whilst attempting that the heat caused the washer assembly to come unsoldered  again and it fell off ... in bits!!!! I was a little annoyed!!!! I got the washer assembly back together again and also back on the frame. Now I knew how careful I would have to be with the blowtorch!!! So I was careful not to get too much heat near the washer assembly .... and the price I paid ... burnt a hole in the gauze!!! A second piece of gauze suffered the same fate!! Then I remembered my mini blowtorch used for electrical wiring ... That did the trick and at last I had a complete filter. A little tidying up and fettling and I could relax. The second filter was so much easier to make, although I still needed 3 attempts to make the washer assembly!!!

Photographs, a picture speaks a thousand words!!!

More photographs ...

 ..... and finally ...

St Andy ::)

Brian
8227 8)

Why thank you Brian. I can honestly say that I have never been called that before!!!!!

I loved reading your recent post Andy. It all sounds very familiar. I sometimes find myself trying to do similar tasks to your tank filter which I HAVE previously successfully done but so long ago that I forget the various wrinkles which allowed me to succeed way back then. Soldering a length of something using a blowlamp is a particularly good illustration of what I mean. But we persist don't we and what a result to be able to do the 2nd one so much quicker.
Also I have to say, was there anything else you would rather have been doing than spending all these hours on this part of your restoration?
Chris

Brilliant Andy, though I think Brian in his suggestion of taking you straight to sainthood is running roughshod over the whole process of becoming a saint..........;)


Granted Andy is currently performing two miracles in bringing back to life the Gussie and B20, but he aint brown bread yet and hes skipped out the becoming canonised.

Nevertheless taking everything into consideration, this forum is probably well within its rights from a Lancia perspective, in bestowing the title of saint on Andy!

:)


:)


P

 "................ but he aint brown bread yet and hes skipped out the becoming canonised."

Mere details Frank, stop nit picking!!!!!

Thank you Chris ........ and I can honestly say that there is nothing else that I would rather have been doing!!!

Although I must admit I did think when things were going particularly badly, 'oh sod it, forget all this, they can't be seen, why not just use a bloody in-line filter!!!'. The problem with that is that I would know it was wrong!!!

                                                             Andy

Sounds like you had fun with it.  For once a small item on the bench not flat on your back with a face full of grit.

David

Once again the Gussie has been  getting the attention and the B20 has been resting!! However, I have visited the engine man with the block and the heads. I now have back in my possession a block and a head in ready to go condition!! The other head is still being worked on as a hospital job to try to keep the cost down and, let's face it, there are one or two other jobs, indeed cars, that are occupying my mind, time and wallet at the moment!!!

It is great to have these parts back, it does mean that when I get an opportunity I can build a short engine and one head, two big steps in the right direction.

                                             Andy

Great news Andy, another milestone! You're almost full time at both projects it seems but obviously enjoying it all.

Hope to see a few more photos.

 :)

P

Just a quick catch-up on the B20 although I haven't been doing that much work on it myself .... the Gussie and Appia have been getting all the attention!!!

I now have both heads and the block back with all necessary work completed thanks to Chugga.

A few photographs to show what has been achieved .....  These are the before photographs of the heads. I am using my old computer with the old photographs in the downloads folder. The after photographs are in the downloads folder in the new computer so a separate post will provide those.

                                 Andy

After photographs as promised ..... this is quite a change!! I am delighted!!

All I have to do now is to complete the shopping list with Cavalitto (and pay for it) and then get started on the rebuild. Fortunately I have Clive Beattie's excellent book which dedicates a large section to rebuilding the Aurelia engine. I think it will be very well thumbed before I get to the end of this task!!!

                         Andy

Xmas is early Andy, am sure you're delighted, as indeed I was, keep grinding away, great to see its another milestone passed and on to the next!


P

The word "grinding" jumped out.  Hopefully none of that, and no "chipping away" either...

That looks like good work on the cylinder heads Andy. I am pleased that you got them repaired, particularly as they hadn't already been planed to anywhere near the limit. To find good useable ones these days is getting really quite difficult.
Chris

Progress is painfully slow!!

Yesterday I assembled the valves into the left hand head. I have not used a valve spring compressor for at least 30 years and I am pleased to say that I did not send any springs, spring caps or collets flying across the workshop!! Quite a relief!! Cavalitto sell all these items, but I bought only new springs. I did not check the originals, but had been advised that valve springs are best replaced as a matter of course. A washer is required under both the inner and outer springs, but my engine, on disassembly, as missing a few of these, so I am presently trying to get replacements. When I can source them I will get on with the right hand head!!

This is but a small step, but I can now say that I have started to rebuild the engine!!!

                                          Andy

More photographs ..

More progress Andy, am sure its all coming back to you, steady as you go!

P

A rather superior compressor.  How does it feel to make that start?  Tide turned?

What's the sticker on the end of the head?

The spring compressor is one I bought about 44 years ago and that is the first time it has been used!!! Very simple, very effective.

I must look at that sticker, it is from the place that restored the heads.

"How does it feel"? Amazing is totally inadequate!!! I must now make sure that I don't stop!! I know progress will be slow, but I must try to keep things rolling. I have to collect the Appia crank from the machine shop soon and I will take the B20 crank then to have that sorted. In the meantime I should be able to get to the second head once I have the necessary washers. I have new studs for the block .... that is another thing that is recommended should be done as a matter of course, although Clive Beattie disagrees and suggests that they should be left well alone if possible!! I had some that were ok, but the majority were beyond recall!!

I will try to keep this thread up to speed, but there may be lapses!!

                                      Andy

Well, I collected the Appia crank and dropped off the B20 crank ... it would appear the B20 crank will be about 12 times as expensive as that for the Appia!!!! I was sorely tempted to leave it, to take a chance ... but in the unlikely event that things went wrong that could get very expensive.

The machine shop has asked for the dimensions for standard and undersize bearings for both the main bearings and the bigend bearings. I have the data sheet (included in Paul Mayo's Aurelia manual), but the very figures I need are illegible!!! Sods Law!!! So, please, if anyone has a good, legible copy of the relevant data sheet for the B20 crank, please would they post it on here in order that I may pass the data on.

As the Appia and Aurelia crankshafts are so different, I thought it would be interesting to post a photograph of them.

To be continued!!

                        Andy

Like a baby crankshaft!

Does Geoff have the details on his website?

P

From AST 273I. dated 8/5/59

UNDERSIZES OF CRANKSHAFT JOURNALS AND CRANK PINS TO BE ASSEMBLED WITH UNDERSIZED BEARINGS

Crankpin diameter for assembling with 1st undersize bearings: 49,748 - 49,764 mm
Crankpin diameter for assembling with 2nd undersize bearings: 49,494 - 49,510 mm

Crankshaft journals diameter for assembling with 1st undersize bearings: 59,713 - 59,726 mm
Crankshaft journals diameter for assembling with 2nd undersize bearings: 59,459 - 59,472 mm

Website sadly in need of a full redo, thanks to Apple dropping support for iWeb. On the to-do list.

Here is AST 273, which should do the trick for s.4 on.

Geoff

(Sorry, Sebastien - we both posted at the same time! Glad the info is consistent)

Sebastien and Geoff, thank you both so much. That is excellent, I will send this on to the machine shop and then they can get to work on the crank.

                                                Andy

More progress, this time the right hand head!!!

I have yet to hear from the machine shop re the crankshaft, I am hoping it won't be long!!!

                   Andy

Life is like that ......

Yesterday I hoped to hear from the machine shop ...... this morning, around 0840, I received their call!!! I thought that all was ready, but no, there was a request for more information, specifically regarding the thrust washers that are adjacent to the rear intermediate main bearing. I will send all the main bearings including the caps, (TAV4 nos 2 to 9 incl. plus the two thrust washers no. 17) plus a copy of TAV4 and the accompanying parts description sheets!!! All the parts for the B12 are the same for the B20 with the exception of the rear main bearing cap and the studs for the oil pump.

I need help with the last piece of information requested .....

                       How thick are the thrust washers when new please?

I hope someone can help with that ..... I must now add those to the shopping list!!!

                                    Andy

No information for thrust washer thickness in the AST.

However, the info you need:
From AST 273 (valid from car B20-2952) - shown above

"Axial clearance of intermediate crankshaft thrust bearing 0.080-0.150 mm Wear limit 0.200 mm"

From AST 276 (valid from car B20-2952) : Fitting the Vanderwell bearings

"The thrust washers are also divided in two halves, one provided with a check tab and the other one without it; they are also specially lined and cannot be rebored."

Your machinist should have the block, to make the clearance measurements. Best in my opinion to start with a new thrust bearing (source Cavalitto or Omicron).

Hope this helps.