Lancia Motor Club

"RHD Italian registered 1964 6x2, 10ltr diesel with 197hp, Perlini rear steer, restoration project, my barn storage for this Lancia has now been lost so sale required urgently or she will have to be weighed in, which I think will be criminal...."


http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1920656.htm

Totally agree......... save it for Lancia`s sake..!!!!!!!!!!
it may be too much for one person to take on, so what about a group of 5 , thats only £400 each, far more reasonable i`d say.....then it can be wrangled about who wants to have sole possession or not....OR IT WILL DISSAPPEAR !!! Be warned...
i have a small holding that i can store it at, no problem... it can be converted to a hospitality truck for events and even hired out, who knows....Unfortunately i can`t contribute at the mo but would love to help keep it from being scrapped...
Surely its worth saving isn`t it....???

Tempted momentarily to consider this for conversion to a race transporter for my B20. It would be awesome but I am forcing myself to find reasons why this would not work.

Go on Chris!!  It can't be much more thirsty than your V8 tow truck...  With the advancing years a little more space to catch 40 winks between races? 

David

Can i suggest that we approach the club to purchase it, so it could be used for events, not to sure about the HGV side of things mind, i thought that there was a way around that for older lorries, just a thought.

You would still need a HGV licence to drive it, however I can offer my services!

If someone would check it out thoroughly and report back on how good / bad it is, AND we can find a place to store it for CHEAP, I will consider funding the purchase...  :-\

Volunteers please!

Guy, see the post from 'Sweeet-twincam' re storage, I'd be prepared to help with funding it subject to the same provisos !! Also, we have to shift it from its present barn to its new storage, that won't be cheap !!!

                 Andy

David,
As you know, Jacky always drives the V8 + trailer + B20 to the races and she doesnt have an HGV! And nor do I for that matter.
On a serious note, i would have thought the club could find a use, volunteers etc for it. It is a one off opportunity after all.
Chris

I'd be up for a share, but couldn't store/move. Can't see this scrapped. Maybe we could do something similar to the Appia Consortium. There's a committee meeting Sept 5th and would be happy to raise it there too.
Mark

Agree it should be raised with the committee and you would have my backing/support/contribution if it was to be moved forward on the same basis as the Appia pickup.

Well, we have positive vibes,lets hope we can pull it off, i remember i spoke to the guy who had it at his yard when it was on E Bay as i was considering buying it then, but i then woke up in the shower  ;), he told me it started right away when he put batteries on it, he also told me it was solid. So heres hoping the club can come to the rescue ::)

Funds are tight, but I'd be happy to contribute in some way, perhaps we can widen potential donation/ownership to as many members of the club as possible. I can see the aghast looks in the centre of Bristol next April.............

If you've never seen how wonderful Lancia's trucks can look take a peek at: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lancia_trucks/pool/

Am I right in thinking that it's in Stafford? If that's the case I might know somewhere just west of Stafford that could provide potential short term storage - where my Fulvia currently lives along with a collection of old bulldozers and buses.

If needed, I'll chip in some funds.  ;D (don't tell the wife!)

I suspect if asked, most Members of the LMC would be prepared to put in, say, a nominal £10 towards saving this lovely vehicle, as Lee says it would look great at Bristol and many other events, it would be great at "Classics on the Common" at Harpenden,  where commercials are welcome.
I used to drive HGV's for a living back in the days when I still had hair :'( but no longer have a licence, but it used to be the case (I think) that if it didn't carry goods it could be driven on a car licence, no doubt that's no longer the case, but does anyone know what is the current ruling?
Brian
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May I suggest that Ade gives it a look over, and Mark will you take it up in Committee?  (Sorry Guys!)

Perhaps it would also be good if we could show them how many members are behind this initiative?

Stu, what about a poll perhaps?

I would be prepared to help with the funding if it was only a few hundred quid. I hope it can be saved by the club. Perhaps we should offer shares in it.

I would be happy to chip in a couple of hundred quid as a donation.
I woudl very much like to see it saved. How the repair/conversion can be managed is more complex. But if there is somewhere to put it then if that proves too tricky we can always try to pass it on.

Good idea John.  What do all the others think?

If you promise not to tell (!!!) I'd be up for a donation/share in the same sort of way people split a Routemaster bus or train.

David

the appia van is done in "shares", each person is responsible for running costs etc on a % basis of how many shares they own ie if someone owns 10% then they pay 10% of the bill, simple and works

I took the liberty of sending the seller an email, to which he has replied. We appear to have a deal if we want to go for it. I suggest the following, inspired by the Appia Van arrangements:

We go with shares at £50 each (ie 40 available in total)
These shareholders are then responsible for their percentage of costs (will be the more expensive part, whatever we do with it!)
People indicate asap how many shares they'd be willing to take up
I go to the committee on Sept 5th with a proposal to underwrite/take up the balance

To my mind, the key issue is storage, on an ongoing basis. sweeet-twincam, does your offer still stand? how long would it be available? is the storage open air?

I am happy to co-ordinate and deal with the financial side (if everyone's happy with that), but would prefer someone else to deal with the logistics of collection and transportation if this comes off! If this is acceptable to people, I will start the ball rolling by committing to 4 shares, ie £200 and 10%

Mark

Put me down for a share.  We do have links with another transport company that have low loaders, so I can easily get a price for moving it.  It could be registered as a Historic vehicle, so is tax free, but it would still need plating (MOT test) each year and you would need a class 'C' (HGV rigid) licence to drive it.  Ade.

Put me down for one share please Mark, I think I can just about afford that!

Brian
8227 8)

Put me down for 2 shares= £100,  8)

ok put me down for two shares please.
I am guessing that the cost of fixing etc will cost a multiple of that and use up my £200 mental target and more quite easily.
If we face an initial shortfall of funding to buy it I am happy to contribute more. I am just being a bit cautious because the initial share price is just the start!

Would absolutely love to see it run, though!

I could do a 50 donation but can't open the door to spiralling costs. 

David

Hi, i`m as keen as the rest to save this lovely machine ,might even think about getting a licence...!!!   as its my own land then there is no time limit....yes it is open air i`m afraid but it shouldn`t stop the owner(s) putting something up if they feel it prudent....some telegraph poles and simple sheet corrogating should suffice,

Ditto

Brian
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+1

I'm interested in a 10% share too.

But does anyone know how deep this 'black hole' we may be shovelling money into might be?

I'll have a share. I think that it's a case of saving the truck then assessing the way forward re costs and viability.

I will go for a couple of shares, so it looks like this project might go ahead. It would be nice to have a report from one of the potential shareholders on the condition of the vehicle before committing ourselves.

I'd be up for a share or two, but I might suggest that if the same ownership model is going to be used as for the Appia van then maybe the shares should be made smaller but more numerous?

The Appia was a known quantity with acknowldeged expertise and parts availability within the club so running costs are more certain. This is a different kettle of fish, so to protect the innocent and spread the pain joy a greater spread of the costs might be more attractive to the membership (it might be more of a bind to adminster though).

Somewhere I have a TAV (or the majority of one) for these beasties, I'll see if I can find it when back from my hols.

Can I also propose a "Supporters Club" in tandem for the cowards?   Am thinking "Vulcan to the skies". 

It could be little more than a PayPal account.  I'd expect no benefits and truth be told if someone ran off with the fund I'd trust it ended up in some Lancia somewhere ;D   

David   

So, with a week to go before the committee mtg, it looks like this is the current situation - £850 committed to in "shares" where people are prepared to be responsible for ongoing costs according to the size of their share (though we will vote on it before we do everything and/or anything!) plus a further £150 in "donations" where people have kindly said they'll put money in without the expectation of ownership - or future liabilities! That leaves a further £1000 for the club to finance/underwrite, although a couple of people have said they're also considering coming on board...
Storage has been offered - long term but not covered. Transport can be arranged - cost to shareholders. There was a suggestion of smaller shares (than £50) but to have more than 40 would be challenging! Maybe if they want people can share their shares privately... Would still be good if someone can check it out by next Sunday (Stafford).
Anyone else want in?!

Mark, what does the vendor say about the condition of the Esagamma and what is necessary to get it roadworthy? What has already been done? What condition are the main components in re: engine gearbox brakes and suspension, plus the tyres.
Before we get all romantic about it we have to be realistic, it will be easy to spend double the purchase price just getting it on the road before the bodywork is tackled. And we have to remember there are often Lancia commercials for sale in Italy fully restored for between £8K and £20K.   Ade.

I was considering buying this myself. The owner is from my neck of the woods. However my email and phone messages have not as yet been asnwered. A friend of mine was recently speaking to the owner, and while it should start with a fresh battery, he mentioned it had a problem with the clutch.
My mate who did the bodywork on my Aurelia, has offered his services to restore the cab (as a favour), the rest of it being up to me. I'm still tempted. I'm lucky in that I have a large space at the rear of my house for storage.

Kevin,

From my own point of view if you can take it on that would be great. My own motive is (I think along with others) simply to avoid it being binned.

Jai

Yes, I would agree that's about the size of it.

Brian
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Agree with Jai & Brian, simpler if one person takes it on, so all to the good if Kevin does so. Ade, I can't add anything useful to what's already been said regarding condition, hence my comment about inspection, and agree about the risks. It was/is all about saving it from the scrapper.
Mark

The main problem for me, is it's in another country. The owner (who runs a trucking company) has suggested a price of £800 to transport it on a low loader to Ireland.

This is thumping on apace !!! I've been away for 6 days and missed a lot.

If, Kevin, you don't buy it and it goes the 'shares and Club' route, then, if its not too late, pl count me in for 2 shares !!!

                 Andy

Hi

Would be happy to also chip in with a share, but would need to understand ongoing costs as well as no bottomless pit available here I am afraid!

Peter

I see the advert on Pistonheads has expired.

Has anyone bought it yet?

As far as I know, it remains unsold. I said I would respond to the seller after our committee meeting tomorrow. Kevin, may I ask if you have come to a decision? Any last thoughts from anyone prior to the LMC committee in the morning?
Mark

You asked for any thoughts ................. well, if it remains unsold then we should be in quite a strong bargaining position !

I feel we should try to negotiate a lower price, does anyone have any idea of scrap value, if that is the only other realistic route open to the vendor  ??

            Andy

We discussed this at committee today. We're still checking out one or two things and I hope to give an "official" response within 48 hours
Mark

Nice one Mark, I hope the reaction from other Committee Members was favourable.

Brian
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The committee discussed the Esagamma at its meeting on Sunday and came to the conclusion that it could not support the purchase, the main reason being that if it bought shares it could potentially expose the membership of the LMC to unquantifiable and potentially large liabilities. The Esagamma is different to the Appia van in that it is completely unrestored; the Appia was not a "project" in the same way, and therefore the Club was not exposed. I do understand the distinction and support the committee's position.
 
Obviously that doesn't forestall a group of individuals doing something about it, but as it stands there'd be a shortfall in funding the potential acquisition of around £800 as well as some doubt about transport, storage and whether keeping it outside would be sustainable. Unless something changes significantly, it's now difficult to see how this matter can progress.
 
Mark

Mark,

Thanks for taking the matter up.

Guys (and Mark, wearing his non-committe but potential syndicate member hat) where do we go from here or do we drop it?

Has anyone been able to have a look at it yet? does anyone intend to?  without the information as to what it's condition is, we don't have a basis for making any sort of decision anyway.

I'm still interested but with a very limited liability as many of us have already stated, As for the committees decision, I understand the reasoning ,but disappointed that it's not prepared to have a closer look to see what the potential liability might be, before making their minds up, as at this point they would be no more committed to a decision, than the rest of us are as individuals.
So to sum up, as I see it, we've squared the circle again, in that none of us know which way to jump without knowing it's condition, and we're no further forward without this information than we were to begin with.
What are Kevin's feelings? is he still interested in going it alone, putting aside the transport costs for the moment.

Brian
8227 8)

Brian,
I think you sum up the position very well, and I think if someone had seen it/does see it, and there is a clear plan both for its safe and secure storage and for its potential future use which could be put to the committee, then I feel the committee would seriously consider supporting that. But at present it doesn't appear that anyone is prepared to champion the project!
Mark

I agree. Is anyone in a position to go see the lorry and cast a critical eye over it? As above I don't think we can move forward without this happening. Perhaps Ade Rudler put it all into perspective with regard to Esagamma availability in Europe. There is no point vastly overspending the lorry's actual value and we can't make a judgement without knowing, roughly at the very least, what needs doing. Some sort of engine re-build must be required at the very least. This alone could exceed by some way the lorry's value?

I agree Brian.  I previously suggested Ade take a look at it (how about it Ade?), and then we would be able to make an informed decision.

Mark, thanks for taking up the matter in Committee, but it's significant that they too are worried about potential big expenses. ???

I've been watching this thread for a while and just to add that I'd love to see it saved, it would make a fantastic 'mission control' for events like Silverstone Classic. 

I'm happy to throw a £100 in the pot for purchase but until we know more I'd also be reluctant to commit to ongoing liabilities. I bought into the Appia van because it was much more of a known quantity.

As Mark has said, there is support in principle amongst committee members and if we can get more information/costs it is not a closed matter as far as I'm concerned.

Martin.

and if you want more trucks and big boys stuff;

http://www.foro.pieldetoro.net/foros/showthread.php?t=85322&page=2

enjoy !

Martin.

I suppose I could go and have a look at it, where is it, Stafford?
Ade.

I would chip in for a share, if we have a good common understanding of what we're committing to - i.e. some written agreement on how we operate & maintain the truck.

I think the previous idea of a car transporter sounds perfect...!

Can we down-plate to a 7.5t rating so that we can all have a drive?

I thought similar, plus two Italian coffee machines  ;D

Thanks Ade!

Whoever "owns" it I'm still good for a donation.  One person, three, thirty three, part the club, whatever...

David

I decided against, as the cost of resto plus transportation etc, makes it a bit uneconomical. This photo attached is kinda what I had in mind.
Where in Italy, would you find restored examples for sale.

Down-plating apparently not viable due to sheer size and scale - 10.5 litres for a start!! Although ad's gone from Pistonheads I have seller's email address if Ade will go and have a look. Risk here is time - seller running out of options and will scrap eventually...
Mark

Kevin, the Ferrari transporter is or sale at Talacrest, I reckion that it would get you the best poisition in the paddock ;D

In case anyone hasn't seen it, I don't think you can get onto the Pistonheads listing directly anymore but if you google this you should get 4 images;

www.pistonheads.com/sales/1920656.htm

If you also google "Lancia Esagamma" and then view images you'll find some older stuff from when it was previously for sale etc in amongst pages of (mostly) Esagamma images. Look for it on a low loader around page 7/8/9 or so.

Martin.

I will contact the seller and make an appointment to view.  Re down plating, I think as Mark said this is a non starter, mainly due to the fact that it probably weighs more than 7.5 tonnes unladen!!

I must confess I haven't even looked at a picture, so have no idea what an Esagamma truly is... :-)

Here's a great pic of an Esgamma - love the quote about it being the Rolls Royce of trucks. http://www.flickr.com/photos/30797788@N03/4473085852/

And this is the one in question http://www.flickr.com/photos/38118841@N08/4098467823/

Would it be worth approaching Iveco here in the UK? The Esagamma is essentially the ancestor of the current Stralis and I believe the ex-Lancia truck factory in Bolzano is where the heavy Ivecos are built. Perhaps we could ask them to support the restoration (it'd be a good project for their apprentices) with a view to Iveco getting some use of it for PR at truck shows. Just a thought.....

The chap I sort of bought the Ypsilon from runs a commercial vehicle bodybuilders here in Telford (Ingimex official partners with Iveco). I believe he may be a current LMC member and perhaps a source of advice/support. I love the idea of a transporter, but that could prove expensive (it's also a fair bit shorter in the chassis than many other classic transporters that I've seen). I think the easiest conversion would be a simple flatbed or maybe a dropside like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/13142169@N03/2678760053/

Thank you. Was browsing from my phone previously as the LMC forum is on the IT ban list at work. (I think they clocked how long I had the page open daily...)

It wouldn't be a practical transporter, as it would cost more per mile than the car it would carry! Still, it's rare and somewhat unusual so I'm willing to chip in for the sheer fun of seeing it within the Club.

Lee....   Do I like the way you're thinking????

As for being "a transporter" I think we all really mean "show piece" with an Aurelia or an Appia Zagato on the roof and the real business of dispensing premium coffee and swapping of tall tales going on inside.

They'd almost be an argument for getting the cosmetics right first and moving it between shows on a low loader like a traction engine might be treated.

As for "next steps" surely the next is to spread the word via Viva and see who else has ideas, contacts, whatever.

David

Sorry to put a damper on all your ideas..... but there is a roadworthy Esagamma with a flatbed body and hydraulic ramps for sale in Italy and it is 9,000euro. (asking price)  How you could possibly get the one in the UK up to that condition and put a body on it for that amount of money is beyond comprehension.

I apologise again, but we have to be realistic.

Thanks Ade. That makes sense. I hope someone takes it on, but I think I'll opt out. 

I agree that on our own, ongoing costs could be a real issue, hence why I think approaching a more affluent potential partner like Iveco would be mutually beneficial. If it were handled correctly there's a significant PR opportunity in it for them and a rare piece of Lancia history, that's right here and now in the UK, would be preserved.

Harvey, there's also more photos of 'our' Esagamma from the link in my last post above.

As a general comment, if this whole thing were to be undertaken it makes sense to me that it ends up as a corporate hospitality base primarily, perhaps in the guise of a transporter ??? not sure.

Martin.

As I drove round the M25 at the weekend and saw a broken-down privately-owned classic Routemaster bus on the hard shoulder I thought of the Esagamma...

The hard truth about this is that no one person or group of people is coming forward with a real plan or project - we're all stirring each others' excitement but no-one's really sticking their neck out and taking a lead. And it's not fair to say "the club should do it", because all that means is someone within the club should take responsibility, and it wouldn't be right to place that burden on anybody!
 
Is it time to let go... ?

Mark,
Could be, I'm a foot soldier on this one not a general. :(

Brian
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Mark,

I tend to agree, though if someone wants to take it on I am still up for a no strings donation.

If the seller can't get rid of it and is threatening to sell for scrap, perhaps that's all its worth. If he doesn't get what he wants for it, perhaps he would let it go for scrap value?
I too, would be up for donations and possibly the odd weekend of community spirited grafting, depending on the location of the beast.
I'll go with the flow  ;D

I have been in email contact with the owner, it was last driven on the road in 2002. It did drive onto the low loader when it was moved to its present location near Diss in Norfolk, but now the clutch is not working!  I will try to have a phone conversation with him when he is back from holiday in a few weeks, bit I do think this project is a non starter!

Me too.
Brian 8227 8)

I've been periodically following this thread since the truck first appeared on ebay and the pistonheads site. I'm amazed at the level of interest and enthusiasm thats been generated on the forum and I would certainly be eager to participate in any club joint ownership scheme. From reading the multitude of posts it now seems to me that the impetus has gone and that this rare opportunity will slip away from us.
The reason for this lot of waffle is that I suddenly saw the mention of Diss in Sliding Pillar's post of 14th Sept.
I live approx 12 miles from Diss and would be very pleased to go and take a look at the Esagamma armed with a camera if someone could put me in touch with the owner or the yard where its languishing. I'm no engineer but I can use a camera and have a fair idea about what might be realistically restored /not. If some photos were made available on the forum I feel we would all be able to make some better informed decisions about the viability of the project.

It looks to me that this is not going to happen, but what a shame to lose all this enthusiasm for what could be a very useful club asset, and a bit of fun too.

So, perhaps the answer is staring us in the face. The appia van was a no brainer because it is car, not truck, technology, easily garaged, can be driven by all etc etc.

Why don't we try and find a reasonable size van, (Jolly ?) and sort that out ?

Martin.

OOPS, should have looked at Don's post first (Lancia Commercials For Sale) but we're clearly on the same lines.

Martin.

Murf, thanks for you offer to go and look at the truck, as soon as I hear from the owner I will let you know. Ade,

I don't know if this is still a live issue but another society I belong to runs an Iveco 7.5 tonner of moderately advanced age for carrying equipment. It does less than a thousand miles a year but I believe running costs for that are about two grand. Just running a HGV is an expensive business, let alone buying and restoring one.

Frank

Whatever happened to this truck I wonder ?  After 30 odd years with Fiat/Lancia/Alfa Dealerships, I started a new career only this month with the Iveco Distributor for Ireland. Observing the sheer size of the workshops and assembly areas, restoring a truck does not seem that daunting anymore.

It was still in the possession of the same owner up to about a month ago. I met him at our LMCI Christmas dinner. Just to drive you all wild, his talk then was of chopping it and weighing in the chassis but I couldn't tell if that was to save the engine and/or the cab - I concluded the latter.

Back when everyone was enthusiastic I suggested we direct that energy towards something easier in terms of size, condition and driveability. How about this ?

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page.php/carno/121732

Only 30 of us with 850 euros !

Martin.

(and I do know a nurse who might ........... )

We could always hire it out as a hearse for Lancia Funerals :o
Brian
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Interesting, what it actually says in the dialogue box is,
We could always hire it out for Lancia Funerals :o

So quite why it chose to change it I have no idea.
Brian
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Martin & Brian, I love your suggestions about the nurse / hearse, but I'm stil hoping Kevin will buy the Esagamma!

The perfect vehicle, In Ireland it can be driven in the bus lane, put the siren on and drive through red lights (you can already do this if you drive a taxi) :D, It wolld be faster than my Grale in to the city during rush hour ;D