Lancia Motor Club

I'm currently dismantling the rear suspension and never having done this before would welcome some advice. The manual shows the leaf springs being paced under compression before being removed with a special Lancia tool. Is this tool specifically required or is there a simpler way?
Rodders

No doubt others can advise from a more methodical perspective but, for what its worth, I have not needed special tools for this work. There are no "deadly" spring loads involved, unlike the front spring.

I would say that removing the back end of the spring (or re-fitting it last) can be a bit tricky as the spring does need to be under load for it to stretch to the length necessary to uncouple from/attach to the spring hangers. This can however be assisted during fitting and removal  by placing a length of wood (something like 2x1 inches and about a foot long) and some smaller packing pieces in the gap between the hangers, the spring and the chassis rail so that the spring doesn't whack off the chassis rail when it comes loose (when re-fitting, the spring can be allowed to slide along this piece as it is placed under tension until it lines up with the hangers). Finer positioning of the spring can be controlled by a lever inserted in the same place Starting at this end can also mean that the spring end can come into contact with the lower end of the inner wheel arch which is slightly delicate.

SO I have found it better to detach the front end of the spring first, and ideally by way of removing the 4 nuts from the mounting bracket on both sides with the springs under full load and then lowering the axle and springs while keeping the car body elevated on blocks. This allows the springs to decompress in a more controlled manner and so that they pull backwards away from the mounting brackets and then downwards as you lower the axle.

If the front mounting bracket nuts won't come free, you may have to start at the rear end as described above since the front shackle pins are quite substantial and bear the full load of the spring whereas it is shared between two shackle pins at the rear and you have two options of approach to detach the spring. However I would not rule out the possibility of removing the front pins first with the use of levers between spring and mounting.

Finally, when dismantling the removed spring, the small (10mm I think) nut and bolt that holds the leaves together is, again, more tricky than life-threatening and requires only the help of an assistant or two to hold and compress the spring while removing and fitting the nut.

If you are removing the axle too, you won't need to loosen the 4 nuts and bolts that fix it to each spring until the whole assembly is off the car. Lifting and lowering the axle is the way to tension and de-tension the spring during removal. You can do one side at a time however. I supported my car on blocks and wood placed under the 90 degree corner under the rear seat where the rearmost part of the floor turns up into the boot floor

The transverse bar fixing nuts and bolts can be tricky too as the bolt side has only a very shallow 17mm flat to grip and can also be seized in the bush.

Hope that helps. Maybe someone else can do better/different.

Brilliant, thank you Alan
Rodders

I made some mods just there now. On reflection, re-fitting may not be quite the reverse of removal as lining 4 wobbly mounting bracket bolts up with the mounting bracket still attached to the spring and the spring under tension will be a challenge. However by the time you come to re-fit, you should hopefully have separated the front end of the spring from the mounting bracket and be able to fit the bracket to the car first and then fit the spring to the bracket using levers to line it up in order to fit the shackle pin (having already fixed the rear end of the spring to the rear hangers). Otherwise, you may have to start the re-fit at the front and fit the rear end last. Not a big deal anyhow. Good luck.

Rodney

I have removed the rear springs as Alan says without too much trouble, And dismantled and rebuilt.... Then bought some new ones...

Tim

Tim
Interested to know before I start, why did you discard after rebuilding?
Rodders

Last year I changed both rear springs without too much trouble and no special tooling.  The only difficulty was achieving the 80mm dimension to the bumpstop.  I had to load the boot with a large canvas bag of rubble, which proved to be insufficient so I had to persuade my wife June to stand in the boot as well before I tightened the bushes.  She was not amused.

Peter

Rodders

The rebuilt springs had lost a lot of metal due to rust but interestingly had not lost their temper nor profile. I could flatten them by standing (15 stone) on one at a time and bouncing. I decided they were not up to the job I was building the car for so ordered some new from Cavalitto. My standing and bouncing test on the new ones demonstrated how weak the others had become as I couldn't compress the new ones at all!

Tim

Ah! Thanks Tim I shall do the bounce test.
Thanks for the tip Peter. I think my wife will be even more unamused at the idea. What are the chances of June volunteering to come and stand in my boot?
Rodders

I had mine done a while back when I was (self) restoring the car.

Taking them off wasn't too much of a problem and they weren't that badly gone in terms of corrosion so I took them to a specialist who confirmed they could be 're-tempered' and did the job of dismantling them, re-tempering the leafs and reassembling them for a reasonable cost.

Now of course the re-tempered springs had a more pronounced 'U' shape so getting them back on the car wasn't the piece of cake that getting them off was. However using a bit of lateral thinking I utilised an old car lifting jack and a length of steel (both loosely held in place on the top of the spring between the mounts with two big U exhaust clamps so nothing could 'fly off'!) and then by gently extending the jack could precision 'lengthen' the spring until it was aligned with the mounting holes and slot the bolts back in. Hey-presto!

Good luck!

Any photos please.
Brian
8227 8)

Unfortunately not! Looking back at invoices I keep with the history of the car I had the re-tempering work done back in 1999. This was before the prevalence of snap happy digital cameras and I didn't think to take any normal photos of my Heath Robinson leaf spring extender at the time! Shame.

The attached mock up I've just created however is what I was kind of talking about. Clearly this is a bit of a pants illustration but gives the gist of my solution!

Looking at that old invoice I used a company called Brost Forge (London N7).

Thank you, exactly what I was after.
Brian
8227 8)

I did similar, but placed a piece of bar across the inside of the spring and used a large G clamp to compress the spring.

No problem Brian.
I'm working at home today so have just had a peak in the garage at my 'random tools' collection to remind myself what I used.
It was an old simple lifting jack as per the illustration ... and the 'metal bar' was a long iron chisel type thing I happened to have (imagine a big long marquee peg with a pin head shape and a tapered point). I had angle grinded a groove in the head so that the bar slotted into the moveable lifting part of the jack neatly and reduced the tendency of the bar to otherwise slip under load. [Clearing any sturdy metal bar would suffice but the chisel shape was ideal as the tapered end then wedged firmly into the end of the leaf spring].
I correct myself in that the exhaust clamps were used simply to keep the bar and jack together (not to keep them near the leaf spring itself). This doesn't have to be a tight clamp but there will be a natural tendency for them both to arch slightly and you don't want part A and part B separating under load! But a bit of rope would do for this I guess - I just had those exhaust clamps lying around.

I found this simple set-up very effective as it allowed accurate alignment simply by turning the handle of the jack. The wife and friends in the boot option isn't one I had considered ... but then my garage is rather small.  ;)

Funny, until Scott drew it I was imagining a scissors jack rather than the tower jack pictured.

I used a slightly different approach, lifting the pre-assembled axle/spring assembly to compress/extend the spring against a packing piece (in red) under the chassis rail until the eye of the spring end lined up with the holes of the spring hangers

Alan

Snap!

Tim

PS Neil I have had large G clamps break on me so I wouldnt use them anywhere to compress a fulvia spring!!!

They don't need much force on them, nothing like the front springs so I wasn't too concerned.

Thanks Everyone, the descriptions and diagrams make it much easier to understand the process.

Brian
8227 8)

Brilliant, thanks gents for all the responses. I'll update with progress
Rodders

Something I did not particularly forsee in dismantling the rear suspension is the need to ensure as far as possible on reassembly that the springs are assembled to the axle and the combined assembly attached to the car so that front to rear wheel alignment is not affected.

There is no adjustment for tracking on the rear suspension but, with all the various linkages and mountings, I would think it could be possible to throw the alignment out by a fair bit if you were not careful to line things up before tightening everything up.

My car does have other afflictions including chassis distortion due to accident damage/repair but even so it has been measured as having an incurable thrust angle (rear wheels not following front ones) which causes it to run slightly crab-wise and handle differently from left to right .... looks fine when parked though!

Rear axle should locate onto leaf spring quite firmly. I seem to remember fitting the individual leaf springs without the axle attached (but in loosely in place with axle stands!!!) and then fitting the axle to the springs. The bump mount/axle plate bolts wont fit (unless you have extra long non-standard ones) unless the axel is located on the bolt head that holds all the leaf springs together.

Tim

Promised a quick update so here it is. Front of the springs finally undone and with a bit of fiddling about with the jack the fronts are now free. Unless I'm volunteered for extra shopping duties on Xmas Eve I should get the rears undone and then drop the whole thing.
In hindsight, the taking off at any rate was quite straight forward and if anybody is contemplating it, on the basis that if I can do it anyone can, give it a go!
Rodders

If removing the rear shackle bolts on a sedan the verticle spare wheel well is too close to use a socket/withdraw the bolt but the is a plugged hole in the well to allow this.best regards richard

Richard,
A very good observation for series 2 Berlina only,  Series 1 has the spare wheel upright against the back panel and the wheel well isn't a problem, having said that I've never removed my rear springs so these a all good tips for the future. :)

Brian
8227 8)

It's looking likely that I might need a new seat of springs. If so I seem to recall reading somewhere that different models had different springs. Assuming 1600 would have had stiffer springs. Would this assumption be correct and if so any views on how much difference does it make?
Rodders

There may be a difference between the springs fitted to sedans and the lighter sports models but I dont think engine capacity is a factor.ride height differs between series ones and twos which is governed by spring spec I suppose.anyhow  aftermarket springs may vary .richard

Rodney

Why do you think you need new springs?

I believe all sport and coupes had same spec for the type of spring you have -  silent blocks at both ends....

Wouldn't buy uk aftermarket springs as steel spec generally is not same as Italian oem. I think cavalitto has new old stock but at a price....

Tim

This is the data for Fulvia rear springs from the concise repair shop manual

Tim
Not convinced 100% yet that I do need them, not had a chance to take the rear bolts off yet but found that I could bend them just using my hands so using your bounce test I think they may well flatten.
Rodders

The S2 Tavola only shows 2 part numbers for coupe sport and HF1600 - one for the two silent block spring and one for thesingle silent block (at rear) spring. This latter spring bolts to a pivoting assembly at the front.

this ties in with the S1 1.6 HF (Fanalone) having a different (lower and stiffer) rear spring but with only one silent block like S1's generally.

Rodney I believe has a S3 with the same as later S2  two silent blocks?

Tim

There's very little difference in the spring rates, and fortunately nothing special about fanalone springs;

rear:
250kg/156mm (fanalone & all S1 coupes)
255kg/156mm (all S2/3 coupes)

but big difference in camber (no load)
120mm (fanalone and S1 coupes)
138mm (S2/3 coupes)

I know some one who used these for some springs (not a lancia) and thought they were good:
http://www.midlandroadsprings.co.uk/da/86559

Thanks for all the information gents. Tim is correct, mine is the S3.
I've had a quote from Cavalitto and will compare with the UK suppliers (thanks for the midlandroad springs contact) but note the comments re UK steel spec not being up to scratch
Rodders

Is that rear camber? I had heard of this but never looked into it - something about the rear axle beam on all 1600 cars being different (as this is the only way the rear camber could vary). It would be interesting if, as your data suggests, and depending on whether it is positive or negative camber, all S1 rear axles have this characteristic.

Assuming it is positive (inward leaning wheel) camber, that would make the substitution of S1 axles into later cars possibly a desirable modification for handling purposes?

Alan

Alan, my post was a bit misleading, sorry  :-[

I meant vertical spring camber, when the spring is on the bench with no load applied - not wheel camber on the car.

The rear axles on the HF's (1.2, 1.3 & 1.6) are different but not geometrically. The ends are aluminium on the HF's which saves about 5kg.  Neither has any camber at the rear, and both have a slight touch of toe in: 12 - 16 minutes.

thanks. I left engineering college after the first term of year 1 (too much maths!) but I guess you mean the dimension of 3.6" indicated as camber below (on an MG spring). I imagine the same 18mm S1/S2 differential you have highlighted would also apply to the equivalent Lancia dimensions indicated as arch and overall height.

(http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/suspensn/pics/leaf_spring.gif)

Alan, you should have stayed at college a little longer....negative camber in the wheel leaning inwards, postitive is outwards. Altering rear camber on a rear  solid axle of a front wheel drive car will not really aid in handling, which is probably why the camber rate is zero. Toe in (or out) would alter the handling effect.

As a postscript for all those considering attempting this for the first time, be aware that when undoing the rear shackles, its not enough to undo the topmost shackle pin and expect the whole thing to come free. The shackle itself has a lip that fits into the hole in the bodywork which whilst not overly large is enough to keep the shackle in place (unless I missed something). My suggestion would therefore be to undo the bottom ones first - even if these are the more difficult ones due to rusted locking pins refusing to come free!
Rodders
PS if anyone has a couple of shackles and shackle pins not affected by a grinder I would be happy to contribute to a New Years Eve fund.

Try Omicron for shackles and pins and silent blocks but dont expect us to contribute.....

Tim

I wasn't asking for a contribution, I was enquiring if anybody had any for sale.

Rodney - sorry it was a poor joke!!!

I think I bought 3 shackles on ebay once but havnt seen any come up recently. I see spitline.com (pitline) has some.

http://spitline.com/scheda.asp?id=12410

Tim