Lancia Motor Club

Maroon and silver S4

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/1168-Lancia-Aurelia%20B20%20GT%20Series%20IV-2.5%20Litre%20V-6

http://www.kidston.com/kidston-cars/2219/1954-Lancia-Aurelia-B20-GT#

Very tasty, Borranis.....how correct? Top end of range price wise..?...either ways both very desirable......

P

The Kidston car, for which the asking price is 140k Euros, was advertised a year ago by British Motors in Verona for 90k Euros.  Given the car doesn't appear to have had, or needed, work in the interim that seems like a market-defying increase.

Perhaps this is evidence of the 'Aurelia as a plaything for the millionaire Ferrari collector' end of the market that has been referred to on this forum previously: one can assume that Simon Kidston's customers are likely to fall into the right demographic profile!

As it happens, this car is still on the British Motors website http://www.britishmotors.it/aurelia.htm (http://www.britishmotors.it/aurelia.htm) though no longer with a price quoted. For what it's worth,  I think the air cleaner is incorrect, which seems a strange oversight in a self-confessed 'top end' restoration.  That said the car does look very nice; you can't beat an original spec interior.  I have some pictures of its underside if anyone's interested.

Another small detail (after the air cleaner) on the Kidston car, which has me puzzled:
why is the speedometer inscribed "Cisitalia"?

Yes the finish is wrong on the air cleaner. If we're picky - and with an 80k Euro body job we can be - the door gaps at the bottom seem too large - but maybe that's the just the picture....

I agree with Clive the door gaps on the Kidson car do look a bit on the large size. The air filter is the same as I have on my B50, I don't think it is OE but more like a period accesssory.
The Fantasy Junction car does look good, has lots of nice ( if you like that sort of thing ) Nardi bits that would cost a fortune to replicate. The Borrani wires are in my eyes horrible, but from the pictures it has the original wheels too. It has the very rare Jeager instruments, a pity that it has a very much later Nardi steering wheel though. The thing that would worry me most about this car is that the sills where they join the floor pan look a bit 'wibbly wobbly!'

Its the modern batteries that grate for me - in particular when there should be (breath in - wait for correction) a cover.  An easy fix should Santa feel that I've been good enough.  Silver one for choice.

David

That central section of the speedo' is missing from my SIV and I've been trying to track one down for a while now without any joy.  I had been wondering if any other cars used the same 'works' (mileometer / trip meter / speedo 'head') so that I could make up a front plate and match the grey paint...  Perhaps Cisitalia is a possible lead for an alternative application of this particular unit (not going to improve the odds much though I wouldn't have thought, given how many cars they made).

Any leads gratefully received.

Having seen how unchallenged 'quotes' metamorphose into fact if left unchallenged on the forum, could I quietly state that I never  said "Perhaps this is evidence of the 'Aurelia as a plaything for the millionaire Ferrari collector' end of the market that Chris Gawne wrote about on the forum a little while ago:"
Some of my best friends are Ferrari owners and enthusiasts - each to his own.
Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone.
Chris Gawne

I'm stunned at some of the prices listed at present. When I bought my car, it wasn't 'cheap' but at least I could afford it. If I were to sell, I possibly could never afford one again.
I'm working on a B20 at the moment, a 'barn find' I suppose. it was pushed into a shed over 40 years ago and hasn't turned a wheel since. A 3rd series, no rust, everything original down to tools, radio, 'period' seat covers, still has plastic covering on the front inner trim (radio speaker) panels, and rear quarter panels. About 46,000km on clock. All paperwork including original bill of sale from Italy (car was imported into Ireland). Even the original tyres are present. Carb/Brake fluid/suspension resevoir are still painted black. Even has a few accessories including an Aurelia badged outer boot handle. The only major part to be replaced was the exhaust. Thier was some engine damage, but a new bottom end was fitted at the time, and this has the original engine number stamped (I have the original block).
How could you possibly value this car.

Sounds like everyones dream car Kevin......as you say put a value on it in todays climate, things have gone just a tad stratospheric in the last 10 or so years.

Great to hear of another B 20 being restored on the Emerald isle


P

Apologies to Chris for the misattribution of a comment on the forum that I now can't even find!  Should have checked my reference before posting.... I've edited my earlier post to avoid future confusion.

For further avoidance of confusion, I too have nothing against old Ferraris or their owners!

Best wishes, to all.
William

Considering the prices asked I find it strange that both cars appear to have faulty brakes, judging from the fact that the plunger in the reservoir has sunk all the way down. Further, the steering wheel on the maroon car seems to be a fairly late Nardi wheel, smaller than the original one.

Hi

Not sure if this has been avilable for a while, but looks to be a bit more affordable. No connection with seller and limited pics means it could be a basket case. Seller, who I assume is a dealer, also has Aprillia available.

http://annonces.ebay.fr/viewad/Lancia-Aurelia-B20-1958-collection/5044723062?bu=http%3A%2F%2Fautomobile-voiture.shop.ebay.fr%2Fi.html%3FLH_TitleDesc%3D0%26_sacat%3D9800%26LH_PrefLoc%3D0%26cmd%3DBlend%26_nkw%3Dlancia

Peter

William, I have some Veglia instruments and also additional parts thereof if you describe to me exactly what you want.

Luckily my car B20 3615 (RPD 11E) has the later Jaeger instruments which I prefer.

Thanks Tony, I'll send you a email direct.
William

Here's another for sale at Marreyt Classics http://www.marreyt-classics.com/stockdetail.cfm?ID=582 100,000euro

He also has a nice looking B24 Convertible for 300,000euro http://www.marreyt-classics.com/stockdetail.cfm?ID=583
The only thing not correct from the photos is that the top door trims have been covered in leather when they should be painted body colour.

'The best possible investment' at 300 000 euros!  are their any fortune tellers here who can comment on how things will be in ten years time?I am forcasting  sports aurelias are not going to be in my garage in my lifetime

300,000euro is certainly very strong money for a Convertible, most recently have been aroung the 200,000 euro mark.
Makes this Spider seem cheap at 350,000euro even with plenty of work to do.
http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/157788/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63
although at this price I would want an excellent finished car.

A spyder in bits at 350k Euros - streuth. I know from experience reassembling a hand made car like this is no small task, maybe why they gave up. There seems to be parts from other cars mixed up with it too - poor value at that price!

The only thing not correct from the photos is that the top door trims have been covered in leather when they should be painted body colour.

Did they have carpets like that, should be rubber, no Ade?

Washer reservoir on firewall missing too I believe.

All the money = gotta be all the car!

Yes you are right Clive the footwells and bulkhead should be rubber mats, but at least the carpets are the right colour for the sills and prop shaft 'hump'. Yes the washer 'bottle' is missing too. I had to buy one for my B24, it was very expensive 15 years ago, so I dread to think what they cost now even if the are still available. Photo attached of washer bottle.

Yes last one of those I've seen was at Auto Epoca in Padova - with an autojumbler at 200 Euros...

Odd that somebody so experienced with Aurelias as the vendor appears to be, would make those trimming mistakes. Maybe it's the market that demands such things.

Deleted

The Marrett car Chassis B24*1424 is a sixth series. Although incorrectly listed as 1955 when it was actually built in 1957
B24 Convertible fifth series chassis numbers range from B24S 1182 to 1331
B24 Convertible sixth series chassis numbers range from B24S 1332 to 1702
Total number produced 521

Ade,
you are correct.
I was mistaken by the year 1955 quoted by the dealer.
B24S-1424 is a 6th series, produced in 1957.
I have deleted my previous post.

This is a very nice and rare 1st series for sale by Tony Erker,  (scroll past the pictures of the 6th series)
http://www.tonyerker.info/html/lancia_aurelia_fr.html

Ade,
This 1st Series looks lovely. I wonder if it is as good as it sounds? And at what price? In my experience, the 1st Series cars are lighter and feel more nimble in day to day driving than the later more powerful cars (unless you are on an autostrada when the gearing and smaller engine become more apparent).
It would be nice to see some more photos of the car.
Not sure what role Tony Erker performs - the 2nd Series B20 project in Greece mentioned recently which he was involved in didnt look too expensive assuming it was basically complete. Has this sold yet?
Chris

Chris, The second series is still on Erker's web site. As to the price of the 1st Series B20, that's anyones guess, but I don't think it would be anyless than the most expensive B20s advertised elsewhere.  150,000euro ++? ........does look nice though!

I'd be quite happy to own any Aurelia whatever the series or model :'(
But the series one is lovely.
Brian
8227 8)

I see the Fantasy Junction car sold already:

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/1168-Lancia-Aurelia%20B20%20GT%20Series%20IV-2.5%20Litre%20V-6

Anyone recall what the asking price was?

150k USD

There was a B24 Convertible in the recent Gooding & Co Scotsdale auction, a 5th series car in perfect condition, it made approx £360,000 ($100,000 over the guide price)

Presumably a record?

Same as these.....big prices too...

http://www.anamera.com/en/find/list/index.html?no_cache=1


P

http://www.goodingco.com/all_auctions/results/scottsdale_12


132   1956 Lancia Aurelia B24S Cabriolet   $561,000


P

Here's another B20 for sale, http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/160632/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=20&request%5bfilter%5d%5boffset%5d=0&request%5bfilter%5d%5browcount%5d=6
A lesson in how not to restore a B20, the quality of the work looks fine, but so many of the paints and finishes are wrong I don't know where to start!
It also states it is a possible Mille Miglia entry, when only 1957 or earlier cars are elegible.

Ade, any advance on: non original body colour, wrong horns, missing upper trims on front intakes, bonnet trim too short, wrong wipers, 70s side mirrors, doors are gappy, missing jacking point covers, underbonnet in body colour including bonnet itself, wrong finishes on HT lead conduits, air cleaner and fluid reservoirs, wrong fuse cover, missing battery cover (and retainer, dangerous), bonnet legend plates missing, regulator and radiator cap incorrect, back NS inner wing unidentified part, inlet manifold hose wrong type, rad blinds missing, incorrect style cloth inside, wrong carpets and no mats, shifter knob, s/wheel, glove on shifter, non duo tone dash, various knobs incorrect, later radio, pedal rubbers missing - run out of breath :)

So in other words.....verging on scrap status!!!!

Its a pity when a "full" restoration has been  carried out, allegedly......thats its no such thing really.

Respect for the breathless list GG!!


P

No, not scrap at all - actually apart from the door shuts it all looks like really good workmanship, and I rather like the style of cloth trim and also the colour - but it's definitely not original specification. Horses for courses - it depends what you're looking for, and a "vanity" restoration - which is what this one looks like being, will I am sure have appeal to some buyers. Caveat emptor as ever, you need to be careful what you pay as the market for such vanity restorations is much smaller than for an original car.

The MM eligibility is "potential" as in it would become eligible if they changed the rules ;-)

I think you have just about listed everything Clive. I would only add the front intake bars are the wrong profile too. Makes you wonder what attention to detail has been spent on the mechanical items!??

Yes, agreed it doesn't inspire confidence does it. You're right the profile is wrong - hence why they left them off no doubt.

There's a choice of 4 Aurelia B20 for sale here, 3 are restoration projects.
http://thornleykelham.com/marketplace/Cars-for-Sale/

Yes, and the great article on the white Pan American car in VL this month.


P

.......35K plus restoration costs.....ball park figure these guys would charge?

P

PS I'm already sitting down...;)

Unfortunately I had very little influence on which cars were photographed for my Aurelia book. But I would have preferred to see the 3rd series in the state in which it is now offered - apart from the rather conspicious paint which looks metallic to me. While we are at it I would like to hear the opinion of others of the fact that all the Aurelias we have seen for sale here have had the plunger in the brake reservoir right down.

The brake plunger is only up on my cars if I'm bleeding the system.

Otherwise it's always down?

on an appia the plunger is always up to pressurise the braking system so it acts like a servo, i would imagine an aurelia would be the same, most dont hold the pressure as the seals go in the pump, my friends appia plunger always goes down wher as mine always stays up, the differance in breaking effort is unbelievable between the 2 cars, when i 1st drove his car i had a bit of a moment when i thought his breaks weren't working however it was just the lack of pressure in the system requiring more pedal pressure instead for the same affect,

We have had a discussion about these plungers before on the subject of bleeding Aprilia brakes - S2 Aprilias had the same system. My post on 10 April 2011 was:

The plunger should stay up and should feel hard if you try to push it down. If it goes down it is supposed to warn you that you have lost fluid and something is wrong!

Some of the D20 - D25 race cars had the plunger protruding through the scuttle to be visible to the driver – just to warn him when to get really worried! You should just be able to make it out in this photo of Castellotti – just in front of his right knee.

Colin

Interesting - I've never had any brake problems or loss of fluid...I'll try with it up, I can see the logic in warning of a problem.

Since my post that started this post elsewhere re my ApriliaS2 I have always had the plunger pulled up and I check it I guess every month or so and it may drop 2-3mm but never loses pressure since I rebuilt the dodgy master cylinder....

Brakes lock in the dry at 70mph. My MOT tester saw the size of the drums and said he would take my word for them working. Maybe it would have wreaked his rolling road kit or my car might just have shot off the rollers who knows...

Tim

And then the D24 at Goodwood in September 2011 had the plunger down! See photos. This is the ex Anthony MacLean car (I think) and perhaps he had more confidence in the braking system than Castellotti did 50 years earlier.

Colin

Interesting to read the various answers. When I first ran my B20 the seal in the reservoir was in a very poor shape, and the plunger was down most of the time. The difference to the brakes was remarkable. With the plunger down the brakes needed more pressure than with the plunger up. Years ago I bought a new seal from Cavalitto - so long ago that I actually dealt with Enrico Cavalitto himself - and since then the plunger has stayed up, and the brake pedal has a very short travel. I prefer it this way, also since this is the way is was designed to be. The plunger is not there only to make bleeding easier.

I always had the plunger up, as anything I read on the subject stated this was correct. Usually after a race, I'd have problems with brakes binding, and would have to wait for them to cool to be able to push the car easily.
Once the rears locked completly which resulted im a spin through a chicane. I decided to release some pressure and see what happened. Result much better brakes and a fairly hard pedal which I prefer.
Now I did experiment with cylinder sizes and shoe compounds, so maybe they made a difference. Plunger has been down for years and I can outbrake an XK Jag with discs !!

An outsider would think after fifty years there'd be an answer.  All part of the intrigue and fascination.

David

The manual for 2nd series Aprilias with Sabif brakes states "the pressure stem is working normally when, if pulled up it remains in this position"
I don't have this system so cannot confirm if this is true, but guess it would be.
Noel

Thats my S2 braking system!! So I will have it up...

Tim

I've always kept it up on my Aurelias!!

If you look at the frame of the Aurelia bonnet you will notice that there is a hole above the plunger to enable it to stay up with the bonnet closed.

IMHO the plunger should ALWAYS be UP on a roadworthy car. If it is down you either have a brake fluid leak or possibly the seal in the reservoir might itself be faulty. Of course it is also a very useful aid when bleeding the brakes - it has made my wife redundant when bleeding brakes much to her satisfaction!

An additional point for those with late series cars, still fitted with the hydraulic clutch, which uses the same fluid reservoir.

On a 6th series B20 we could not disengage the clutch fully.
Solution was to pump the plunger a few times, then leave it up: PRESTO, clutch worked perfectly!

So for me, echoing Chris, always keep the plunger up, and watch after a long inactivity period if it has moved down. 

I see in the owner's manual schematic of the engine bay it does indeed show it in the up position...but no mention of why in the text. I shall try this (when the freeze is over) and see if it is more than a warning of fluid loss/bleed aid.

http://www.bonhams.com/eur/carsRAFpreview/#

Hoping this (1957 Lancia Aurelia B20GT Sixth Series Coupé -  Estimate: £25,000 - 30,000), shows up on this link....anyone know anything about it?


P

I don't know the car, but even in a small photo the sill shape looks a bit 'off'.  Hard to say more from what they've published.  Estimate is what resto projects have been selling for, so that might tell you something...

Time to resurrect this thread - just listed for sale at an RM Auction in Australia, estimated at £45-60k!, a very early B20.

Supposedly:
Chassis No. 1047
Engine No. 1001

That would make it the first B20 engine - for the 47th car, does that sound right?

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page/179954/1951-lancia-aurelia-b20-gt-coupe/ (http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page/179954/1951-lancia-aurelia-b20-gt-coupe/)

Can't believe it will sell for that kind of money, must be worth double...

This auction is actually in London, so the guide price is in Pounds Sterling £70-90,000.
It is still a come and buy me price, as I am sure it will go for more!
Incidently I know of at least 4 other first series cars that have earlier chassis numbers than this one.
http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCars.cfm?SaleCode=LF12&CarID=r154&fc=0

Rebuild by these guys I take it, lovely site, which doesn't quite deliver for me

http://www.carrozzeriaviottitorino.com/en/main.html


P

Not sure why it jumps out at me but is the cranked gear lever unusual on such an early car?

David

Not rebuilt, but originally built by Viotti.

That Car, B20-1047, early 1st series built by Viotti, sold for £70.000 hammer price, or £ 78.400 with buyer's premium, at RM London sale, october 31st.

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=LF12&CarID=r154&Currency=GBP

I watched the live auction film on the RM website, and that car did not raise much interest.
So it sold for just the low estimate. If it is as good and original as described by RM it was a good deal.

For exactly the same price you could have bought a 1956 Fiat Abarth 750 : I know which car I would prefer...

Does anyone know if that B20 is staying in England?

I looked at this B20: some missing parts and non original finishes but what put me off was the over spray in wheel arches and floor area, and stuck down matting - not a good sign IMHO.

Clive

In the meantime I found an interesting discussion between Abarth specialists, on the Abarth 750 I mentionned earlier, makes nice reading.... :o

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/abarthzagato/messages/887?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

http://www.oldracingcar.co.uk/products/1955-lancia-aurelia-b20-gt-4th-series

Known to the forum.....?

Love that colour on the coupe..........its looks very nice to the in-expert eye anyways!

P

I know we have mentioned this before, but it's yet another restored car that has its brake cylinder plunger in down!

and here's another newly listed restored car... brake plunger down too! http://www.autoscout24.eu/Details.aspx?id=227077967&cd=634952576430000000&asrc=fa