Lancia Motor Club

Let's face it. Fulvia steering is terrible, heavy, low geared and vague, quite unlike a sliding pillar car.  Has anyone tried to do something about it?  I would think there is room to fit a power assisted rack in place of the track rod perhaps electrically operated (Toyota???).  Decent steering would transform the car.

David

Sorry David,
Never ever having had the pleasure of driving a sliding pillar car I can't comment, but I disagree as far as my 2c is concerned, and I certainly don't remember my Rallye Coupe being any different; admitted it's a bit heavy until the front wheels are turning, but once past that point the steering is lovely, and while not as precise as a rack and pinion set up, it is very good for it's age and a pleasurable experience, which is more than I can say of my experiences with electric power steering; having owned several cars with electric power steering, Japanese as well as Italian, I find them too precise while the slightest inadvertent movement of the hand has them shooting off all over the place, if power steering is a must then I'd much prefer the Hydraulic and pump set ups of my Dedras, Themas and Mercedes.
Have you tried driving a different Fulvia as your experience of the steering certainly doesn't match mine. ???,

Brian
8227 8)

I must say that I agree with Tim and Brian.  Before I took my Fulvia coupe off the road to restore, I always found the steering to be extremely sharp and precise.  My Fulvia always felt like it was running on rails :D Even at low speed, I have always felt that the steering on my coupe is light when you consider that it doesn't have any power assistance.  Thinking about it now, I can't wait until I get it back on the road  ;D

WHAT RUBBISH!!! you cannot possibly compare a fulvia and sliding pillar car 2 totally different concepts, my favourite cars are sliding pillar but wouldn't be without a fulvia, a fulvia's steering is as precise as a prewar lancia just lower geared as are an appia and aurelia, i love the feel of early cars on the road but they do tire you out compared to any more modern car, as for vague are you sure you were driving a fulvia???? if so it must have been knackered!!! a fulvia (all of them) are very precise and agile, totally neutral handling and like a pre war lancia give you plenty of warning that your getting near the limit , for pottering around the augusta is fantastic and gives me an ear to ear grin, however on a long run the appia and fulvia are far more comfortable and relaxed to drive so sorry i disagree with you david

That's telling me!   All I can say is that both of my Fulvias (?Fulvii) have heavy and vague steering.  Better than some of their contemporaries (which were particularly awful) but still typical 60s steering,  MUCH too low geared and heavy from the FWD.   Maybe I have been spoiled?    On the other hand, minis and 1100s had lovely steering from their rack and pinion set ups but were much lighter cars.   I am certainly prepared to doubt the state of the steering box on the Sport 1600 and will have to look at it sometime and look to replace the bushes.  I have no idea what the mechanism inside is, I had the idea it was a Burman type box and therefore bound to be bad but maybe I am mistaken.  Your comments give me hope that something can be done with the box I have.  On the other hand,  have any of you guys ever driven an Aprilia or an Appia?

Of course, I can always buy a fresh one...
http://www.ebay.it/itm/Scatola-sterzo-per-Lancia-Fulvia-tutti-i-modelli-anche-per-versione-Zagato-/271001584371

I once had a worn bush in my previous fulvia' steering "idler arm shaft housing"  which gave startling steering response until the bush was replaced with a neoprene one.best regards richard

Idler box wear shows up on decelleration from moderate speed when the car wants to go right or left depending if LHD or RHD. Unless the steering box is very worn/has no oil (its worn!!) then you should look to the tyres. New tyres will transform the car especially if they are michelins. Old rubber is very wooden on a fulvia. Also if 185 or wider has been fitted this does make a considerable difference to low speed effort.

My Aprilia has Michelins (newish) and sound steering joints/box etc and I would not say it is much lighter at slow speed than a fulvia with essentially the same set up (just with as commented the FWD weight disadvantage). Tim

Strange that this subject is being discussed , I spent most of yesterday changing the steering idler box on my series 2 Fulvia Coupe. The steering felt all wrong, but not having driven a fulvia for many years and only running my Fulvia for the first time about a month ago I didn't have  a clue as how it should feel but I knew it was wrong, having heard many talk of how good the steering on a fulvia is. Alan Murphy drove it last tuesday and confirmed my suspisions, so I set about sorting it. First I checked the wheels and I found play in the passenger side, now this bugged me as I replaced the lower ball joints , the upper ball joints, the track rod ends were fine , so when I found play I was disgusted ! I traced the play to the Idler box so I set about removing it.  I started by removing the split pins in the steering linkage this proved to be a pain in the A---se, I had to shear them by wriggling the nuts. I then split the ball joints connected to the idler box. I removed the idler box after a lot of cursing and swearing ! my mate Steve helped me at this point by holding a 13mm spanner on the back of the bolts which one sheared off. Finally I had it out. The night before I took a series 1 box off an old sub frame I had in stock, took it apart, cleaned it re-filled the grease and got it ready to fit. But fit it did not ! ???  the levers attached are much heavier then the series 2 version, so back to the spares bin again where I pulled out a series 2 box I checked this cleaned it and fitted it to the car, this is the reversal of the removal as the manual says but without the hassle of removing those god dam spolit pins. Oh ! I forgot to mention I had to take off the steering rod and drill out the remains of the pins that came out in a cloud of rust and C--P !   I then re-filled the steering box with new oil which was a tad low ! So with everything back together I took it for a test drive and WOOOH ! what a transformation. The heavyness gone and sharpness restored.  ;D So now I am one happy camper. the next job is to tune the carbs which I re-built during the week OH I have to fit them as well. So Another job for next saturday.  ;) Will it ever be finished .Thanks David 8228.

Dave(HF)

Sounds like your idler box was very idle and was acting like a steering damper!!

I do remember "querying" my own HF steering and found the 2 top ball joints (ie both sides) had "failed". This was annoying as I had put new ones in only 8000 miles ago. Anyway I changed them and this too returned the steering to normal service. Interestingly with so much pressure from the Fulvia suspension these joint never show up as failed on an MOT generally. Failure is the underrated spring inside the joint breaking so the ball is not rotating cleanly. The HF takes a bit of a battering due to the negative camber making these joints work at their limit. If David's 1600 Sport has the HF suspension fitted (not as standard), this could be the problem he is experiencing.

I do know of some cars that had the steering box fitted off-centre during rebuild by mistake making adjustment impossible and centred steering a bit vague....

Anyway this collective experience is the real benefit of our forum...

Joining in a bit late but vague steering on a Fulvia doesn't ring any bells with me. I'll admit it's heavy at parking speeds (I have wider HF alloys fitted) and the turning circle is terrible but as soon as you have the slightest bit of speed mine is beautiful. If I'd bought my Fulvia and discovered the steering to be vague I would have sold it and bought something else. A sports car with vague steering is pretty useless. As it is I've always found it beautifully weighted and precise. I can also take my hands off the wheel on a straight road and it will track dead straight. I can't imagine power steering separating me from the feel of the front wheels. I've also always liked the gearchange, which I can only describe as having a machine room oiliness to it if that makes sense!

I too always found the steering excellent, one of the best bits of a Fulvia. The 1.3s are a bit more arm twirly than the 1.6 because of the difference in gearing.

How might this occur? Do you mean a few mm off centre due to alignment of the mounting bolts or something else like an entire bracket or assembly upside-down or back to front? I'm thinking of 2000 steering as I write but I don't think Fulvia is much different apart from the p/s.

Our leader has recently replaced a dodgy idler box on his S2 with a better one (having dismantled and tried an S1 idler box of superior engineering but that didn't fit) and I'm looking forward to trying his recently rebuilt car again as the steering was the only thing that let it down.

I agree Fulvia steering should and can be delightfully light and precise and the things that have affected that in my experience have been upper balljoints and wear in the steering and/or idler boxes - mainly the latter.

The Fulvia is still driving very well I suppose the idler box is in good shape, I was sorry I coulden't use the series 1 box and I diden't have enough time to service the series 2 box. I hate this happening as I opened the series 1 and it is in great shape but the series 2 is un-known. Time will tell . Thanks david.

Well. gentlemen, much to think about and thank you very much.  I shall inspect the steering bits on my car with all the above in mind and hope to work some transformation.  My bad luck, I suppose, to have two bad Fulvias in that respect (though I have sold the 1300).  I shall report back in due course...

My engine machinist found some Hyundi (?) cam shaft bearings that fitted the internal and external diameter to replace the grotty S2 plastic sleeve bearing. You can still get the bronze bearings (S1 but fit S2) from Cavalitto but these need machining down out and in. I did this on a S2 idler box that had had over 100000 miles so I doubt I will never see it wear. out....

The tyres are 175/80x14 on nice alloy wheels that came off a 1300 coupe I once had so that would not help.  My Aprilia is on (hideously expensive) 155x14 Xs and feels very light except at low speed.    One Lambda is on 5.00x20 and feels lighter than the other which is on 6.50x22 (5.00x22 no longer available).  Power steering on the Fulvia would undoubtedly help!!

When I drove Aprilias a lot, they were invariably on 165 x 400 Michelin Xs. They always felt about right, if a little heavy at parking speeds. I would think that 14" tyres ( and 155) would lower the gearing somewhat. 400s equate to about 15½, from memory. My Lambda is on 21" quite skinny Firestones and the steering is super. I use fatter ones on the back. The Augusta is on 140 x 40 Michelins and is heavier than I would like, so I've been playing around with the caster angle. Does anyone know what it should be? It also always wants to turn right and I'm darned if I can see why! Are the front springs of sliding pillar cars always the same "hand"?
Regards, John

I have the feeling that we are on the wrong thread, John.  165x400 is the correct size for 2nd series wheels but the first series are 140x40 and I am not sure if they should not be cross ply - did not radial tyres come in after the war?   155x400 certainly fit 1st series wheels better as the rims are narrower.  Mistype, I meant to say 155x400 fitted.  As far as your Gussie is concerned, remembering my experiences with Sheila's front suspension, (see thread on Lambda forum)  I suspect your front suspension is bent to a parallelogram or at least one pillar is out of true.   Lambda sliding pillars should be vertical in all directions as well as parallel, the stub axle determines the castor angle.  And yes, the coil springs are the same hand in both Lambdas and Aprilias so I guess Gussies follow suit.

Arcane information for you Fulvisti but it is all Lancia!

When I read David's original post criticizing Fulvia steering, I had difficulty understanding his comments as every Fulvia we have ever owned and driven (approx 15 I would say of all variants and Series since the 60's) has had impeccable, light steering with good feel and little tugging when accelerating round a bend. And certainly better than any other front wheel drive car of that vintage. The various 1600HFs we owned had heavier steering when parking but the 1600 Sport we had on standard suspension but wide 6" x 14" Carmona Ghibli wheels and 1600HF XAS tyres was perfectly OK. We both drove that car extensively  in the 70's (and I wonder whether it still exists  - LYX191K I recall).
I have suggested to David on the '3 Zagatos for sale' thread that his problem might be associated with the fact that his lovely Fulvia Sport is on Cromodora wheels - not sure whether they are Fulvia or 2000 wheels.
Anyway the point of this post is that Jacky's current Fulvia Sport - S1 aluminium body -  has ultra light steering and is a pleasure to drive at speed or parking. But this car is on  5.5" x 13" FPS magnesium alloy wheels (all 5 in perfect condition at 45 years old) which were fitted to the car by the first owner when new in Italy in the 60's. We were the 2nd owners when we rescued the car from a scrapyard for the wheels in the early 80's and then in the early 90's we sold it due to lack of use and then repurchased it about 6 years ago because it had been such a nice car to drive.The tyres we are using are 165HR13 XAS on the front and 175HR13 XAS on the rear and I fitted these way back because I happened to have them for some reason. Slightly illogical I know but the body is wider at the rear than the front so the car looks better this way round.
The point is that wider tyres do not necessarily make the steering uncomfortably heavy when parking or at any other time so maybe this problem is related to steering box or ball joint issues?
Chris

I competed on a recent winter rally to Monte Carlo using skinny snow tyres on the HF. amazingly light and the car was a delight to throw around the snowy Alps. I think the wide tyres and rims were homologated more for dry conditions and track use.

I have a 1300 coupé on standard steel wheels (currently running 165x80 R14 Falken tyres). I have always considered the steering very heavy at parking speeds but assumed this was normal as, like other posters note, it lightens up once on the move.

Of course what is 'light' and 'heavy' can be subjective especially if used to a modern car with power steering and jumping from this to a Fulvia!

Knowing there's going to be a big meet of Fulvias for the 50th next year I wonder if a suggestion could be that a kind of short car swap - even just driving round the Goodwood car park - could be arranged ideally between someone who considers their car to be as Lancia intended versus someone (like me!) who have had their car for so long that they've perhaps gotten used to certain, um, foibles and where such a comparison would be really useful. Just a thought.

My 1600HF has 175/70 Dunlop Sport 200 (nice assymetric with flexible side walls) on 14 in Cromodoras - steers nicely above parking speed. My1600 Sport is on 5.5J 14 Cromodoras and 175/80 Michelin Energy. This is even nicer to steer at parking due to the higher ratio steering box.

Confession time.  In the course of doing the brake servo, the steering box was exposed.  I put a lot of oil into it and took up a lot of slack.  Pumped the tyres up to 32 psi and, goodness me, it feels like a Lancia!   In fact, it is so light and sensitive I wonder if 32 psi is a bit too much in the front tyres.     Now all I have to do is cure the terrible flat spot below 3,000 rpm but that is another post.  I think I'll take it to my local tuning wizard, especially as it now stops as well.

32 for the track maybe but 26 for the road!!

Oil in the steering box really helps , check the idler box as well , access is through a hole in the battery tray. Thanks D :)avid.

Please note that modern tyres are designed to run at higher pressure than the one written in the Fulvia booklet. I advise 2 bars for all four wheels. If the idler box does not have a grease nipple, it is a good idea to fit one. Andrea

On Idler boxes (which are much easier to remove than the steering box) also replace the poor plastic bearing found in later non-grease-nipple boxes with phosphor bronze bearings available from Cavalitto (need to be turned down) or select a suitable size pair of camshaft bearings which is what my local shop did (some nissan diesel...).

These plastic idler bearings wear and exhibit an issue by wanting to make the car change direction when you lift off the throttle at speed.....

Hello David,
I have just seen your (happy) post of Feb 1st.
Glad you got it sorted as I (and others) couldnt quite see where you were coming from.
Chris