Lancia Motor Club

Hello all,  first post so go easy on me!

Rather like the idea of a Flaminia Berlina or maybe PF Coupe. Have been looking to see what RHD numbers were produced. Found a registry site which lists production http://www.circolodellalancia.it/contatti/lancia-flaminia-ww-registry.html (http://www.circolodellalancia.it/contatti/lancia-flaminia-ww-registry.html) but it doesn't look like the info is complete. My question is, are there any 2.5 Berlina RHD out there or indeed, did they actually make any? The link above shows 43 2.8 (assuming they mean the Berlina), and maybe up to 200 PF Coupe of different variants. I can see a few listings on the web for various lhd but would prefer rhd. As much as the Touring or Zagato versions are very nice, I do very much like the styling of the PF cars.

They certainly did make 2.5 Berlinas in RHD because Cristo and I broke one a few years ago. There wasn't a lot left to save and it may help my LHD Berlina in the fullness of time if I can ever get the resources to work on it.

There is a nice looking LHD Berlina for sale in Holland ( I think ) for 21,850 euros which isn't a lot of money in Flaminia terms these days. It has been on there for quite a while and was at 20,000 euros.

 http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/search-classic-cars/advanced-search-result/?makeId=836&keywords=flaminia&submitSimpleSearch=Search

Frank

It is difficult to find exact numbers for the 2.5 Flaminia sedan, they made a total of 638 of the type 813.10 (LHD) and 813.11 (RHD), but no figures for the breakdown between left and right hand drive.
There were 599 2.8 Flamina sedans built, of which just 43 tipo 826.001 (RHD) were built.

For Flaminia Pininfarina Coupes the figures are:
2.5 (Single carb) tipo 823.01 (RHD) 148 built
2.5 (triple carb) tipo 823.03 (RHD) 37 built
2.8 (Triple carb) tipo 826.031 (RHD) 48 built

Hope this is of help.

Thanks for the replies.

I had a look online at the Berlina in Holland. Looks very nice in the pictures and at 20k ish is maybe worth a look. They also have a PF Coupe for restoration at 13k euros. 

Would prefer RHD though but I think I will go to Holland and at least look at the 2 cars there. 
I've also been emailing a chap in Italy who reckons that prior to 1960, it was not uncommon for Lancia to be made in rhd and stay in Italy? 

I am probably stating the obvious, but I wouldn’t get overly concerned if you can’t find a RHD car, a couple of hours in a LHD car and you just don’t noticed difference, plus with classics it doesn’t make any difference with insurance or it didn’t to me. I would take your time and view a few then buy the best you can afford, no matter what side the wheel is on.

Yes, you're probably right. I don't think I'm going to have many to choose from so will undoubtedly have to consider LHD. I'm due to go to Holland soon so will have a look at the Berlina for sale there.

IMHO Jay's comments about LHD cars being no problem to drive in the UK are valid...........as long as the car is reasonably quick.
My wife and I have always, ever since we first met over 40 years ago, had a LHD daily driver in the UK of some description and we swap between LHD/RHD here and in the UK without any issues. However once about 15 years when v tired I did try to go the wrong way round a roundabout at night near Brescia in a RHD 911! My co-driver put me right.

The other aspects to consider is the saleability and spare parts availability of the car when the time comes to dispose of it. With Lancia's, since the mid 50's the factory will always have made more LHD than RHD and so spare parts availability is better for LHD and regards saleability, you have Europe and the USA as potential markets.
Lastly, I can think of a number of cars which were designed as LHD and then the RHD variant was just not as good to drive - Lancia Delta (brake m/cylinder on left with a connecting rod across the bulkhead) and air cooled 911 spring to mind (driving position, partic for feet is much better with lhd).
Chris

ok, if I go down the LHD route and buy in Europe when I bring it into the UK, it will have to be registered and mot tested. No problem with that - I think the headlamps need changing and the speedo needs to display mph - presumably straightforward?
However, I read somewhere about needing to install rear seat belts if they weren't already fitted.  I hope that isn't the case. I know there is a lot of mis-information out there on the net so hopefully the age of the vehicle will enable it to get away without the rear belts.
One final question, if I import a pre 1960 EU Flaminia will it need an mot to gain UK registration as I understand pre 1960 are now mot exempt?

Suggest you phone DVLA. They are really quite helpful. I beleive I read somewhere in the new rules that you need to have an import tested before registration regardless of age but I may be wrong.

Tim

I think you'll find its a case of if the vehicle never had seatbelts or mountings originally you don't have to retro fit them, my 1966 Fulvia 2c Berlina had Irvin lap belts when I found it in 1997 and no rear belts or mounting points, not wishing to take the chance of smashing my face into the steering wheel, even if the lap belt had kept my bottom half of my body in the seat, I fitted 3 point static belts in place of the lap belts.
If you really wanted rear belts it isn't a problem to get the mounting points fitted, and people like securon will supply a kit and also suitable mounting plares.
All vehicles in the UK had to have seat belt fixings by law in 1965, in 1968 the law changed so that all front seats had to be fitted with 3 point belts and all vehicles previously fitted with anything else, ie lap belts, had to be retro fitted with 3 point belts ( mine obviously wasn't as she was only taken off the road in 1976)
But although you had to have seat belts fitted by law you didn't have to use them ::) real bit of forward thinking that!
It wasn't until 31st January 1983 that it became compulsory to use them
As my 2c was first registered 1/1/1966 the compulsory fitting of 3 point belts was still two years away, so it would seem that the first owner specified the belts.

Brian
8227

I have asked DVLA about the need to MOT a pre 1960 car to register it in the U.K. They say it does not need to be MOT'd to register it.
One other change in the rules for registering imported cars is that from 15th April 2013 you will need to notify HM Revenue & Customs within 14 days of bringing a new or used vehicle into the U.K. You will not be able to register a vehicle until you have received notification from HMRC and paid any VAT due. See: hmrc.gov.uk/nova

When I fantasise about owning a large Lancia saloon, and I do, what I have in mind is something like this, and if I were in a position to do something about it I would be kicking tyres in Bergheim before lunchtime tomorrow.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C328080

Ciao a tutti

Cesare

Beautiful! I wonder what the price is and how much work (if any) is needed to get it back on the road.?

As another Berlina fan, this is the one I've always wanted, beautiful, although I'm not sure about the colour.
A friend in Holland has restored a couple Berlinas and he was amazed at the number of parts used to make even small objects, seems Lancia never used 2 parts where four would do!
Brian
8227 8)

I've been in contact with the seller of the Berlina link provided by Cesare.  I sent a list of questions through and got a quick reply. Trouble is, his replies were one liners and very general. "Yes, car is running", "Car needs technic and paint". So, at the moment, I'm none the wiser. I've tried to get him to be more specific as from the pictures, the car does look like it has a lot of potential. Maybe his English is not great.

I've also been in touch with a very large dealer in Holland and again sent a list of questions but got back a one liner answer - "yes the car is in good condition"!!!!! 

Another dealer in Holland has a Berlina which is listed as 1967 but looks much earlier to me (rear wipers, etc). It looks like it's being stored outside so probably needs a big body restoration and from the pictures, I can see the clutch pedal is down to the floor so am assuming the clutch has gone or seized.

I've also contacted a private individual in Holland, maybe it's the chap that Brian refers to as he has a fully restored 1957 Berlina listed on his website for sale but as yet, he has not replied.

There are loads of PF Coupes in Italy (including an Italian market RHD) but I really want a Berlina. Ideally, I  want either a minter or a car that could be used regularly for a few years before having restoration.

Is that an indicator repeater in the pillar?

David

Well, it makes for a lively discussion!
I would be however very careful, good berlinas are very, very rare! Most have been abused, or just tarted up for a quick sale.
You almost never find a good, original or restored example for sale. When there is one, the asking price is steep, and it stays on the market for years.
Check in Switzerland autoscout24.ch. There are 2 Flaminia berlinas in Lancia blue for sale, one fully restored approximately 10-12 years ago, and another which does not look too bad.
I have seen the expensive one, some years ago, and it really is a good restoration, as it should be for that price! Still, it does not make it desirable, at least to me!
And all the normal ones just make me want to run away, when I think of the work necessary to get them to a good running status, and the size of the wallet required!

 

Buying anything for me in Switzerland these days seems expensive. Both the cars look alright to me though but more expensive than in say Holland or Italy.
So, what do you think of this one http://www.thegallerybrummen.nl/en_EN/autobedrijf/collectie/4499876/details.html (http://www.thegallerybrummen.nl/en_EN/autobedrijf/collectie/4499876/details.html) ?

If it's anything like as good as the photos it's a bargain, and at least you have a comprehensive lot of photos that blow up well to have a closer look, but it still needs the mark 1 eyeball to be sure.
Asking price seems reasonable, I'm also impressed by the depth of the doors and sills!
for anyone seriously interested this has got to be worth a look.

Brian
8227 8)

Yes, I thought on the whole, it looked good for the money.  There looks like there are things you could improve such as discolouration under the dash and on the door pulls, etc. Also, some of the seat shots almost make it look like its got loose covers on the seats.

On the whole though I think it's worth a look so will go over to Brummen to take a look soon. Dealer frustrating to deal with by email. One line reply to my email list of questions so far!

This one just north of Genoa...

http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=228154962&cd=634967829390000000&asrc=st|fs

As you say seem better priced....BUT.....its the lying down on your back part with a screwdriver will  ultimately tell the tale!


P

yes, that looks nice but they are all so far away and getting information out of some of these vendors is proving very difficult. I've had more email contact about the Berlina in Germany this afternoon but still can't get the dealer to tell me what the structural condition of the car is like. The price on this one could be quite good if it doesn't need major bodywork and welding but it seems the only way of finding this out is to actually go and have a look!

Anyone got German Lancia contacts?  SOMEONE will know the car...

David

Good idea.  Or Belgian for that matter as I have now managed to coax another piece of info out of him that it was registered in Belgium.

I think they had them only on the very earliest cars.

Just had a reply from the Lancia club in Belgium.  They don't know the car unfortunately.

One from Petes Classics

Link Richard....or more info.....

P

Think it must be this one http://www.petesclassiccars.com/1959Lancia/default.htm (http://www.petesclassiccars.com/1959Lancia/default.htm)

Early car with option of twin front seats rather than bench. 

Thanks....complete restoration then......$10K.........price tag

P

and then you'd need to get it here and pay the duty, etc.    Have also been sent some pics by a Dutch dealer of a US import he's got in stock at 6750 euros. He says it's very solid and from the pics I've seen it looks ok but I've not seen underneath. He says it needs about 1000 euros to make it a useable runner.

(http://www.soundergolf.com/Lancia UT.JPG)
(http://www.soundergolf.com/Lancia UT (1).JPG)
(http://www.soundergolf.com/Lancia UT (6).JPG)

Only pics of interest are those from the underside and mats lifted.......


P

that's what I'm trying (and failing) to get out of the dealer in Germany . At least with the 2 x US cars the pictures give you an idea of what you would be taking on.

Also been sent this one today that's just come up . Apparently mint http://www.thegallerybrummen.nl/en_EN/autobedrijf/collectie/5360343/details.html (http://www.thegallerybrummen.nl/en_EN/autobedrijf/collectie/5360343/details.html)

They will all tell you that:

"it needs about 1000 euros to make it a useable runner."

If you get it running for 1'000 euros, that means maybe the engine starts and runs. But then you have to stop, get it safely back home and to live with it! What about the non-existent brakes, the rust everywhere, the chrome, the wiring loom falling apart, the lights, the clutch, the gearbox, the drive shaft, and finally the MOT? (oh, I forgot the suspension, the exhaust system, and the dampers!)

Even 10'000 euros is a gross understatement!

At least that american one:
http://www.petesclassiccars.com/1959Lancia/default.htm
has a honest and complete photo description of the body, the underpinnings and the interior.

Redoing completely an Aurelia B12 saloon, is easy in comparison!

So who is going to compete with Parisien, on schedule, and costs, with his newly acquired (at a very competitive price) Flaminia Berlina? :D

That one blueboxer just posted looks stunning:

http://www.thegallerybrummen.nl/en_EN/autobedrijf/collectie/5360343/details.html

It illustrates well the point that you should always buy the best one available. You will never restore another Flaminia to that condition for that price! And a restored Flaminia always pales, compared to a well kept original!

Also, a point to ponder: early cars with drumbrakes are much easier to keep running, without that big Bonaldi servo, and the early Dunlop calipers...
 

What about this one. Possibly better still?  http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=208737281&cd=634633576540000000&asrc=st|fs (http://www.autoscout24.it/Details.aspx?id=208737281&cd=634633576540000000&asrc=st|fs)

Is my name being taken in vain.....??!!.......;)

I didn't know it was a competition.....either to be done in 2/3/4/5 or more years on a shoe string budget!!!!!!

I won't be buying a Flaminia.........would love to mind you........:)


P

Looks divine.........mint almost....but as ever......put it up on a ramp.......get hands dirty, access all areas......if good, well worth the money.....BUT...would prefer to spend dosh on a coupe!!


P

Friends of mine got married in Italy - they had a really nice Berlina as their wedding car - a pretty impressive machine with loads of road presence. Having said that I'm with Parisien - I'd still go for a Coupe - based on looks and the economics. I think those Belinas will take a while to shift and the rough ones are really only parts cars....and as such are overpriced

Not sure its over priced....its just that the few good ones around are worth more than we think! Plus their prices are getting pulled upwards due to coupes prices.

P

As much as I like all the variants of the Coupe, I've always really wanted a Berlina.  There is something really appealing (to me) about cramming the entire family into a Berlina and wafting along in a car that the vast majority of other road users will have no idea what it is!  

I have said on many occasions that the Saloon variant of many cars can be much more satisfying to drive that the Coupe variant. The saloons tend to be more rigid and have a more compliant ride. I can see that Andy is a man of taste having a Fulvia 2C and although I have never driven a Flaminia Berlina, I reckon he is on the right track......for him. Our Fulvia Berlina GTE is delightful and very nearly as nimble as our Fulvia Sport. It is also better built!

That American one has great photos of the pair of paired inside-outside wipers. Reason enough for one just there :) 

There's something so extravagant about the spec on all the berlinas.  On an Aurelia B20 the suspension oilers and brake pressuriser look like expensive refinements for a top of the range car but there they are on an Appia.  Open the bonnet of a Fulvia coupe and the twin carbs are an impressive sight, pop the bonnet on a Berlina and you fall over backwards at the madness of it.  On a Flamina Zagato inboard brakes and a de-dion is impressive race technology next to a cart sprung Ferrari but look under the six seat limo and there it is as well.  THEN there's the build quality all the way through...

David

Peter Collins

I haven't been on the forum lately but as possibly the only correspondent with a Flaminia Berlina sitting on my drive I would like to put in my two penny worth.

Buy the best you can afford has to be the way to go. I don't think even Lancia made a profit out of them when they were new. Costs of any work will never be reflected in the value of the finished article. However I wouldnt be too worried. They are built like tanks! And as far as I can see that includes the pannel work under the surface. Lots of flat panels with right angle joins.

I don't think anyone has answereed on side repeaters and headlights. The headlights are standard round ones so perfectly straight forward to swap in right hand drive units. The side repeaters on the rear pillars were only on the earliest versions (drum braked versions?). Later cars have an enamelled Lancia badge instead which is ever so pretty.

With the brakes, those early Dunlop brakes were common to Jaguars so no problem with parts I shouldn't think. The servo is an issue though. Omicron have a rig for restoring them , at a price. However I have heard of people substituting a different servo, which, if you argue safety over originality, can be justified.

Finally, don't be boring and buy a pininfarina coupe! Make a grand gesture and get yourself a Berlina. They are magnificent! I would go for something that is in good enough running order to drive straight away and with decent original paint. Justs do it.Prices are rising!

Hi Frank, do you still have pics of your Berlina to post? In the meantime here is a photo of an enamelled  badge as mentioned, plus a spare Coupe pic

Jusr noticed that there are 3 Flaminia Berlinas for sale on subito.it , all of which look to be in very good condition and all of which are in N Italy (Piazzola sul Brenta, Mantova and Turin). The Torinese car in particular looks superb in the photos and it has only v recently been put on subito.
 Can I resist the temptation to at least go and look at one of them, 'just out of interest Jacky'?

Chris, take one for the team, you know you want to!

Serious if you have the time and inclination it would be great to hear a first hand, seasoned eye type report on the Berlina, or indeed any other Lancias you see for sale in the homeland!


P

The first Lancia I ever bought  was a very rusty, very wonderful Berlina, an early one with the rear wipers (in/out), drum brakes, a sumptuous worn leather interior, and about 17 shades of primer grey covering a whole bunch of rust. It had solid floorboards, tho, and was a great driver. It ran like a tank, except around 32º, when it snowed, and the distributor just wouldn't spark. So you had to wait until it either got colder or warmer before moving on.

In the mid-1970s, having  paid Walt Spak about $350 for it, it was sold to Bill Knauz (a local car dealer ) for $600, he sold it to Carter Hendricks in St. Louis for $1200, who then sold it to  Japan for $2400. All of us sat down one night for dinner and shared our stories of the car and how to double your money with Lancias.

Bill Knauz lent me a truck and trailer to go on a 24 hour drive to see a couple of B24 convertibles in a Kansas field, with high hopes, but with weeds growing out of the cylinder bores, we took a pass. Groggy from the non-stop return drive, I drove the Berlina through the ravines north of Chicago, our only local twisties, and promptly spun the car a mere 180º. A fun memory to be sure!

Great cars, like the inside of a Swiss bank vault. Absolutely the definition of build quality.

Think the car in Turin is a 2.8 which makes it pretty rare and it looks like it's got the twin front seats option and an air conditioning unit  http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-flaminia-2-8-limousine-torino-61717685.htm (http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-flaminia-2-8-limousine-torino-61717685.htm)?
There's also a 5000 euro restoration project on there now http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-flaminia-berlina-chieti-43131379.htm (http://www.subito.it/auto/lancia-flaminia-berlina-chieti-43131379.htm)

Didnt mention the restoration project @ €5,000 because it dates back to February and so may well be sold. Also to restore a Flaminia is a big job and the others I mentioned look much much better bets to me IMHO>

I just mentioned purely as it's a fair amount cheaper than the other restoration projects I've come across. I'm really not brave or patient enough to tackle a full blown restoration (unless I come across an original UK car that needs saving) but there are definitely a few nice ones out there in Holland and Italy to see. I'll start in Holland after Easter and see how it goes.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C332299

One owner only...sat for 30 years....seems a tad expensive


P

A nice looking car here

I wonder how enough air can get past the badges to keep it cool. . . .

Regards, John

Here is one without the badges from classicvirus.com. (Autoscout link not working) http://classicvirus.com/2012/12/10/long-time-stored-1959-lancia-flaminia-berlina-pininfarina/

Another sorry one for sale:

http://www.ebay.it/itm/LANCIA-FLAMINIA-BERLINA-/121097389872?pt=Ricambi_automobili&hash=item1c31f78730&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1353

Don't worry about air getting past the badges, the radiator is set way further back with loads of room for air to get to it.

Richard's latest post looks a good prospect. If you polished it up and recomissioned it you might be almost there with getting it back on the road. If it was in the UK and I had a bit of spare cash I would grab it........but that's what happened last time!

Frank

From http://www.barnfinds.com/languishing-lancia-1964-lancia-flaminia/#more-2890 and http://www.barnfinds.com/italian-luxury-1962-lancia-flaminia-berlina/

"Berline decouverte par P.Arnaud", from May 1995

From ipocars

And a night shot

That engine is so far back - mid engine really.  Could you get another couple of seats in the very front?

David

David, are you suggesting a front dickie ?  I wonder what that would do to an Ncap rating !!!

                       Andy

The battery tray between the front legs of the front sub frame needs attention or the battery is going to land in the road. I suspect it's the acid spills combined with accumulated muck that makes this area so prone to rust.

Frank

This is the very early car up for sale with Tony Erker in Germany. Unfortunately, I just couldn't get any info out of him about the car. Each email asking questions was just met with 1 liner replies and he didn't give me any better photos so I never bothered going to see it.

No "High pressure sales technique" then! Here is another. Also noticed the artistic story on Tony's website

Yes I'm sure he'd sell more cars if he was a bit more helpful! That early Flaminia would probably be sat in my garage in Jersey if so - with me just sat admiring it, thinking where on earth do I start!

Maybe he gets a lot of timewasters but it's frustrating as a moderately serious collector when you come up against  barriers like that.

I imagine this car has been mentioned in this thread before, but if it is as described is it perhaps the berlina of ones dreams and more than worth the money?

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page/203263/1958-lancia-flaminia/

Cesare

Thanks Cesare, I plan to go and see that one. They've got another cheaper Berlina as well and a PF Coupe for restoration so plenty to see.
Prefer the colour of the cheaper Berlina but the black one sounds like it has great provenance .

Definitely the one of my dreams :'(

Brian
8227 8)

Top dollar, but if as stated and withstands a good inspection, plus with decent providence of consequence, then maybe its worth that


P

I have the seats from a Flaminia(?) which were supplied with the B12, but from memory they don't really resemble those which actually look quite close to the B12s in the model linked above, plus I know one or two people have used Flaminia seats in their B20s


P

Both the berlinas on the website look splendid, and the grey and black colour scheme of the other one is super. I hope they live up to expectation when you go to see them. Cesare

...and whatever state they are in and whatever you decide I hope you have a most enjoyable trip...

David

Filling up and on the road

A nice rear from 'The Gallery'