Lancia Motor Club

Hi,

I've noticed the radiator in my 2C just doesn't look right. It looks too big. I suspect it is from another variant as the top hose slightly fouls the bonnet latch and is risking getting punctured. I'd be grateful if someone could post a pic or send me a pic of the correct rad in situ from their 2C.

Has anybody gone for an upgraded/better fan?

It looks like I will have to replace the rubber carb mounts as I've noticed these are perished and the car is lumpy/flat/hesitant at 2-3000 rpm so I'm suspecting (hoping) that air is being sucked in. Where would I get the carb mounts from?

I have not upgraded a fan, but I did have an  uprated core fitted to one of my Fulvia radiators. This provided sufficient heat exchange in all conditions. To test for air leaks I am told it is common practise to spray 'easy strart' or similar on the suspect area, and note any change in engine running. I know that the carb rubber mounts can perish, but some I have had seem to have the bores made from a different material. Hopefully your  airfilter housing support is in place. Richard

The gap between the hose and the bonnet catch on 2c's is marginal and I had to tweak mine a bit.
Never felt the need to upgrade the fan as I love the workmanship of the pillar and fan, it's so elegant, you can fit a series 2 electric fan but you need the radiator electric fan and shroud for the fan as well as wiring it up, never really had any problems with mine as far as normal cooling is concerned, even climbing the Alps on the way home from Turin.
Re Carb mounts, how bad are yours have you any photos please, 2c's have two seperate mounts, one for each carb whereas 1298cc engines have one piece component that fits both carbs, although I'm not sure if they will fit the 1091cc engine, they are hard to get hold of and don't come cheap and you're probably looking at well over £100 unless you're lucky, I'd be more inclined to try setting up the carbs first, if you're really stuck any time I still have the pair of Solex 32's that were overhauled when my restoration was carried out 1997-19999, but they didn't have much use as in about 2001 I changed them for Dellorto 32 DHLB's, which were well worth fitting.
If you need anymore photos let me know, just a thought have you checked the condition of the bush in the steady bar that supports the underside of the carburettors?

Brian
8227 8)

More photos

Please note the bottom hose already attached to radiator, it is near impossible to fit this hose when radiator is in the car, and I usually tighten the clip up where the hose goes to the bottom of the rad, it's then a bit of a struggle to fit the other end of the hose to the bottom of the water pump, it's tricky and hard to do, but is possible from underneath.
Coupes have more more clearance as well as the hood rail being lower.
Now that Silicone hoses are available, the next time I have to have the radiator out, I will fit silicone hoses, although a bit expensive they shouldn't ever need replacing.

Brian
8227 8)

They also have different bore sizes depending on the choke size of the Carburettors.
It's also possible for the header tank to be fitted to the core the wrong way around, once after a rebuild it looked ok but I just couldn't get it in, after a close look I realised the header tank had been fitted incorrectly.
Once this was rectified it fitted, although removing or replacing the rad on a 2c can never be called easy or straightforward.
Brian
8227 8)

That's a smart engine bay Brian, there is some carb stuff here http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=readersrides&action=display&thread=142841&page=4

Thanks Richard,
They're a mixture of old and new photos, so it's not quite as good as it looks at present until the better weather comes & I can have a good clean up.
Liked the article and very good explanations & photos of the work carried out, however I do think he'd done better to join the LMC and the Forum instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, as many of his problems and cures are well known, he could even have hired the wheel bearing tools!

Brian
8227 8)

Many thanks for the replies.

Here are some photos. The carbs have an ITG filter and I've noticed this is unsupported so although it's not heavy, I do think it's heavy enough to put pressure on the carbs mounts, hence them splitting. The splits are quite bad and I'm convinced is likely to be the cause of the big flat spot.
Also, I've noticed the ITG filter fouls the radiator slight and maybe pushes it more towards the bonnet cable. That said, Brian's photo also shows there is little space between the top hose and bonnet catch. Also, your rad looks the same so maybe in my case, it's the airfilter that is causing the problem by moving the radiator very slightly.
Obviously, part of the reason for my posting was that I overheated the day before yesterday. Now, my very clean engine bay is covered in nasty brown spray from the radiator. Looks like I'll be spending the afternoon giving it a good clean!

more pics

Looks like you could probably getaway by re-profiling the end of the air cleaner mounting to give you the clearance you need.

Certainly looks as though the carb mounting rubbers are shot and could well be the cause of your running problems, if you can get hold of any it might be worth trying 'Comma Seek & Seal' it's a windscreen rubber treatment that is liquid and will normally seek out any gaps and then sets to stop a water leak, I don't see any good reason why it wouldn't work on your carb mountings, just a case of stopping an air leak rather than water, it also stays flexible, so unless the rubber tears away from the metal there's a good chance it might help, or if nothing else prove if that is what is affecting your running.

Brian
8227 8)

Brian,
What a wonderfully clean detailed engine bay on your car. I dont think I have ever seen it 'live' so I really look forward to that.
Richard,
IMHO you must have the support bar for the carbs fitted. Thier weight is not inconsiderable and whilst you may well be able to repair the rubber mounts in the way Brian suggests (in the 70's before silicon rubber was available I always used copious quantities of bicyclye repair kit rubber solution), if you dont supoport the carbs this will most likely be an ongong problem. Why no go back to the original air filter assembly?
Chris

From that RetroRides thread:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shoe-Goo-Black/dp/B001AAWPWK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1366014652&sr=8-5&keywords=shoe-goo

'Room Temperature Vulcanizing Rubber' is one name that springs to mind for a suitable repair material

If by any chance you still have a flat spot after curing those terrible leaks, check out my thread on carburettor tuning on which I was advised to fit larger slow running jets which helped enormously.

And the right colour!

Brian
8227 8)

Thanks for all the replies.

I have ordered a selection of the suggested products and will attempt to seal the carb mounts when they arrive in a few days.

The airfilter support bracket is still in place but I don't have the original air filter box. I'll have to try and track one down -  are they the same as the Coupe?
For the time being, I'll try and fabricate something to take a little weight off the carbs by maybe bolting onto the support bracket and feeding under the ITG filter unit.

I did read the carb tuning thread which has a lot of useful info. I think my problems stem from the carb mounts but there is maybe further room for improvement once they're repaired. The larger slow running jets could well prove a useful addition.

I have a complete air cleaner  that I don't want a fortune for, they are the same as the coupe, if you're interested PM me, I shall be at Autoitalia at Brooklands 4th May so I can bring it along.

Brian
8227 8)

thanks, I've sent you an email

I tried some liquid rubber stuff on the carb mount cracks but my flat spot problem has not been cured.  I'm going to double check for air leaks and maybe try one of the other products I've bought.

I went for a long drive tonight and at first thought the flat spot was better but not cured. Once the car was very hot, I noticed the flat spot was much worse and the idling was much higher (about 1500rpm) rather than the usual 800ish. The flat spot occurs at 2000 and it's not possible to move off smoothly without a heap of revs unless you're on the flat or downhill when less than 2000 revs can be used to move off . So, going to double check for air leaks again and after that, I'm looking at carb tuning and then maybe trying some larger idle jets as suggested on the carburettor tuning thread. David went for 55's but I'm guessing he will have been running Solex 34's so can anyone tell me what would be the correct size for Solex 32's?

Failing all of this, I'll have to try and find someone on Jersey that know Solex carbs and see what they have to say.

The gaskets between carbs and rubber support and/or between support and intake manifold may have failed. Check that all 8 nuts are tight (some of them are not very easily accessible). Worth checking that the needle valve (easily tested on the Solex) is of the correct size (stamped on it; berlina different from coupe). Andrea

Unless you took the rubber mounting off you may well have cracks underneath too leaking air. The large metal air filter obviously adds weight but the carbs themselves are big old things hanging and vibrating on that rubber. So some sort of support must be used to protect the rubber mount, especially if you buy a new one.

I tried the various liquid rubber products but could only get access to the top of the carb mounts and of course, they were likely to be just as perished below. I decided to take the carbs off the mounts today to see if they were perished. Once off, they did look perished and on one of the mounts, I could almost push a screwdriver through without any real force.

I contacted Omicron last week to see if they had any new mounts in stock but unfortunately they didn't. They are checking to see if they have any good secondhand ones. The 2C has 2 mounts rather than the single mount of the Coupe. I do have a new Coupe mount but although it fits, the bores are bigger so would need reducing with gaskets but this is probably not a good thing to do in the long run.
I could try covering the existing mounts with one of the rubber solutions but I'm not sure this would be anything other than a very temporary fix (if at all).
So, does anyone know where can I get 2 new mounts from that are suitable for solex 32's on a 2C?.

Have you tried Cavalito?

http://www.lanciaricambi.it/

Robin.

Andy,
I am not sure where you are in the UK....and I am away till Thursday May 23rd but I am certain I have a pair of used carb mounts in good condition in my garage in Sunningdale. If you want to borrow these I am sure I can get you to liaise with my son Alex who can get access to this garage.
However I would have thought Enrico at Cavalitto will be able to help and there are other Fulvia parts sellers in Italy who do a postal service.
Any small leak will affect the slow running dramatically. In my experience the leaks tend to be on the upper surface ( because of the weight of the carbs if there is no support) and you can drip oil onto the rubber whilst the engine is running to see if it gets sucked in.whilst
Chris

Chris, many thanks for your kind offer. I'm in Jersey at present but I have literally just found a place in Germany that has them in stock. Well, they have the 1 piece 1200 mount rather than the 2C 2x mounts. I think for longevity, the one piece mount might be better anyway.
I emailed the place that Robin suggested (thank you) but then found another link that came through to http://www.bielstein.com (http://www.bielstein.com) who have a ecommerce store showing them in stock. 167 euros so not cheap.

Whilst searching, I came across various articles saying Dellortos are better, etc which made me think should I swap the Solex. Dellortos 32's are an option but finding them isn't easy. Is going for a large version say Dellorto 35's an option? I know I can make them fit but will the carb be to big for the car?

Also Spitline has same one piece mount

http://spitline.com/scheda.asp?id=9097

Tim

Spitline is new to me.  I typed in "Flavia" and got back 15 pages.  A whole new world...

David

Excellent source of new and used. Roberto has good English and posts very quick. I got my Flavia Dynamo brushes there.

Prices seem reasonable as well , especially for Italy ......

The new carb mount arrived yesterday from Germany. Quality looks nice as well. Took my time to clean everything up and fit it. Pretty certain no more air leaks for the time being.

However, I think the previous owner must have set the carbs up for a leaky mount as without touching anything, I refitted the carbs and started up to be met with a very high idle (1500 rpm) that then increased the moment I touched the throttle without really returning to an idle position, i.e staying at 2000+rpm.

I've had a quick play with the throttle opening adjusting screw and the throttle synchronising screw. I'm not really familiar with twin carb tuning so am not sure what order to start adjusting things in. I also don't have a carb balancer so will have to order one in.  It's either that or find someone on Jersey that tunes carbs which might not be easy. Would like to at least get it driveable in the meantime though by getting rid of the high idle and then the racing the moment I touch the throttle without the return to an idling speed. Any suggestions gratefully received!

Lots of info there:
http://viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/carbs/tuning.php

Also regarding too high idle:
http://viva-lancia.com/fulvia/qanda/carbs/high-idle.php

A gold mine of information really, with the caveat:
Carb tuning is complex and should not be left to the un-experienced. If carbs are properly tuned, Fulvias are extremely economical in terms of fuel consumption: the real problem is that often carbs are not properly set-up or tuned.

I think part of the problem is having replaced two carb mounts with a single carb mount that the throttle mechanism is now slightly fouling the single mount. Going to have to file a gap for it to return into.
Hopefully that wil get the idle under control.

Update, ALL of the problem was the single carb mount as opposed to the 2 x  carb mounts I had before. With the old mounts, there was space between them for the throttle mechanism to spring nicely back but not with the new single mount. I've now cut a notch into the single mount and the throttle works as it should.
The new mount cured the low rev hesitation and the car is driving nicely. Yes, I'm sure a little more carb tuning with a carb balancer will help performance or economy but I'm much happier with the way the car is driving. ;D

I am delighted, how excellent to get a really positive result after your patience and determination, aided in  no small part by members of the forum.

That truly sums up  what it is all about !!!

Now you can set about enjoying the car.

                          Andy

Really great news....so there will be at least 3 Fulvia Series 1 Berlinas next weekend. How exciting. And the forum has been very helpful I reckon - I have learned all sorts of Fulvia tips over the last couple of years in spite of what must be nearly 43 years of continuous Fulvia ownership! (1971 to date)
Chris

Yes, definitely the forum pointed me in the right direction straight away so thanks for all of the contributions.

Next job will likely be a new possibly upgraded clutch for the 2C so I'll be asking the forum which is the best way to tackle that!

Any particular reason why? my clutch has been in for 14 years and 22,000 miles with no problems, but I'd better keep my fingers crossed after tempting fate like that :o

Brian
8227 8)

I just felt that after driving it for a while with the leaking carb mounts, it necessitated a lot of high rev pull offs just to get the car moving. At the time, I felt the clutch was beginning to get a little juddery. Now the carb mount is fixed, I can pull away with the minimum of revs and it feels ok but , with it having competed and me not knowing when it was last changed, I figured it would be a sensible move to change it at some point in the not too distant future.
I'd be interested to know what options there are available. I read somewhere on here that the Fiat Uno turbo clutch is a good alternative on the 1300 so maybe there is something similar for the 2C?

In the 70's our original 2C was used to tow a 21' Shetland cabin cruiser + outboard including going up and down ramps to float the boat off the trailer. We never had any issues with the efficiency or effectiveness of the clutch......however we did need to find spectators to sit on the front wings of the car when hauling the trailer + boat out of the water up the ramp due to front wheel slip with so much weight on the ball!
I never dared to calculate what the weight of boat + contents + trailer + engine was but we must have been breaking the rules by some margin.
Chris