Lancia Motor Club

Not for me but for a friend. 

I'd argue the difference isn't all that.

Tell me I'm wrong and a 1600 is worth seeking out - because...

David

Horses for courses, 1300's are great fun, very capable and more than capable of keeping up with modern traffic, and not doubt 1600's are even better, but the difference in what you'll have to pay for a good one of each is considerable, so it's pay your money and take your choice.

Brian
8227 8)

There is a better chance of finding s/h spares for the 1300. The only 1600 I have driven is the well known ex HSCC Sport, which around Castle Coombe Circuit, had 'a bit more of everything'. My own Zagato JLG 65K had a 1298 in standard tune, but went well due to being a home prepared light weight. Also my coupe had a 1298cc engine albeit with those special camshafts available at the time, and slightly higher CR from a skimmed head, although that may have been negated by the pockets in the piston crowns. That went OK too.(When it wasn't rolling over)

Had both, and still got the 1600 (well 2 actually  ;)).

Sarah still says I sold the most delightful 1300 ever, but in truth she and I would rather tour in a 1600 (Sport) and thrash a 1600 (HF). All cars are are horses for courses.........

agreed, 1300 is better for just pottering around the local towns etc, 1600 zagato great tourer 1600hf great for being a menace  ;)

I entered the Classic marathon a few years ago and took ages to decide which car to use. The Fulvia Series 1 Sport or the Fulvia Series 2 HF 1600. In the end I took the more relaxing Sport. The four speed gearbox loved the mountains and it was more comfortable over long distances.

I have had both, but would say the 1300 is a more buzzier engine , the 1600 seems to have more torque, and is quite relaxed at 85 to 90 on a motorway  ;D, and will do it for hours, ( GNW weekends usually  :) )  where the 1300 would not like it at all. I am only talking about coupes though

Only had coupes, both 1.3 and 1.6. Either has merit, great to push along quickly, but 1.6 for me is the best - much more torque and feels much quicker in my view.
Whether it is worth the premium is another question!

Aside from the obvious of "bigger engine, more torque" what would make you want a 1300 ahead of a 1600? 

There's also the "S1 vs SII and SIII" debate which saying "it has to be a 1600" can shut down.  For myself I like a lot of things about the S1 (and hence Flavia Zagato) such as the four speed box, tall thin tyres and a big steering wheel.  I like the way an S1 sits lower and corners flatter.  For sure it might be 10mph lower cruising speed but I bet round the corners increased confidence would make up for less outright grip.

Remembering Ian Conway's HF it wasn't a cruiser and didn't really want to track straight on a B road - it was hard work, stiff riding, noisy.  At low speed the wide tyres and small steering wheel made it a real workout.  Its a car to admire and on the right day and the right road an awesome machine (as the rally titles witness) but would it be a car you'd hop into in preference to a modern or a car you'd be planning trips just to have reason to use?

Then there's the "Zagato vs Coupe" debate.  He doesn't really need the back seat.  On that one I love the way both look, the visibility in the coupe is fabulous but the Zagato is still very good indeed.  He's agile enough that the climb in and out isn't an issue.  The coupe boot is huge but I expect he'd be fine with the Zagato for what he needed.   Does the Zagato really cruise better?

....and then...and then...what I often scoff at with magazine road tests "Alfa GTV vs Fulvia Zagato - which is king of the compact GTs" is that more often than not the difference between one Fulvia Zagato and the one parked next to it will be bigger than between the two different looking cars.  Condition, setup and modifications can TRANSFORM a classic car.  The Austin A40 in showroom condition will not outpace a Jag round Goodwood (of all places).  I caught "classic car club" on tv recently with an Audi Quattro test, poor clutch, notchy box, an obvious wallow, uncertain steering round the straight ahead and not a lot of obvious oomph.  How much was it just a shagged old smoker against how cars have improved per se?  They then were saying what a bargain it was...while it obviously would swallow twice the (then) asking at its first trip to a specialist.

For me (for him) a 1300 S1 Zagato, just for the quirkiness a side hinged bonnet and the spare wheel locker, standard engine and suspension, rubber mats, steel wheels, expensive tyres.  Perhaps a webasto.  What would that be missing against a 1600 Coupe or Zagato?

David

There are a few other things that one might mention - the coupe has superior visibility out, a light greenhouse - whereas the Zagato is much more enclosed and (to be fair) the driving position in relation to the wheel and the glass is a bit awkward. The aerodynamics of the Zagato make for more relaxed high speed, and likely less wind noise, esp. with windows open. Windows with frames seal better than those sexy ones on the coupe without. Chassis flex is non-existent on the coupes, not so simple on the Zagatos.

Seem welded inner wheel arches to outer (tricky) makes a Z stiff.

Wind noise and ventilation are both big factors over a distance.  Interesting that the Zagato is great with the windows up or down while a coupe might not be the easy fix the vendor makes out with a passing "seals are available from Omicron or Italy".

It sounds like the seating position in the Zagato isn't for everyone, something Richard Fridd commented on.  I know many shapes and sizes who've been happy with one but not ALL shapes and sizes.  It won't just be ergonomics but the feel of it.

How does the lack of rigidity in a Zagato manifest itself?

David

The seats on the S1 Zagato provide virtually no lateral support. Quite exhausting on a trip over twisty roads. Andrea

S2 1600 Z seats are quite supportive and make for a very untiring ride/drive. We drove from Ulm to Dunkirk this year non-stop in the pouring rain and got out like it was almost a Mercedes that had got us there.

Z ventilation is quite bad and I prefer the all window open on the coupe for hot days. However the Z is much quieter esp at speed. I do not like the electric windows of the 1600 as they invariably need manual assistance, albeit I believe this was the first Lancia to be fitted with electric windows so at the beginning of the development curve.

Re the seating position on a Z (with S2 1600 seats) I have lowered (Beauty of an articulated steering column) the steering quite a bit which is an odd feeling to begin with but easily becomes comfortable and very controllable. It has also allowed a non standard dash (OMG say the purists) that hold 2 extra Lancia Fulvia dash switches (one for fan override and one for the rear fog light). The wheel is now not interfering with the view over the bonnet, and is very able to manage hairpin bends (we did the Stelvio this year at speed).

Having sold the 1300 I am not unhappy with this decision, and have complimented both 1600's with a more sedate Flavia Vignale.

I cannot comment on Z stiffness as my car was a basket case (very floppy) due to rotten most things but now with new metal everywhere it feels like my HF (which has a roll cage fitted - adding further stiffness).

Tim

I think that the higher gearing and greater torque of the Z 1600 (series 2) which I had years ago, made it more enjoyable and relaxing to drive. I certainly didn't the like electric windows, or even the electric tailgate, or, come to think of it, most of the remaining electrics!
Regards, John

'Vanity feels no pain', the Fanalone 'skeletal' seats were my preference when equipping my 860kg 1300Z.However not everyone's 'cup of tea', as I couldn't sell the seats once surplus to requirements for 75 quid each, until a local Abarth enthusiast bought the pair. Worth building a car to accomodate them I think. Regarding Fulvia trackday mods, altering camber is a potentially FOC job (for anyone with access to welding facilities) which yields good results, and erradicates undignified squealing sounds whilst taking a corner.

But note the neg camber set up only really works with the offset 6J wheels. You still get squeal (as I found out) if you use skinny 5.5J wheels!

I am glad you mentioned that Tim, as I must have altered camber at the same time as changing to the 6Js. Is it the width or the offset which is important? Also I rather liked the GTA doorhandles on my old orange one

The seating postion is a little different between the Z and the coupe. I bought Richards Z 'JLG' and fitted a Sparco Sprint seat (which is wider than most and comfy for me). I had taken it from my coupe. The main difference I found was that when I sprinted or did a trackday in the coupe I had plenty of space above my head even with a helmet on. In the Z it took a bit longer to get 'fitted in'. I'm 6' 1" and the top of the helmet would be against the roof. I'd slide myself down a bit in the seat to give my head a bit of wiggle room. It was no great problem but that was the difference I found. In fact, had I kept it and had the skills to turn it into an out and out Competizione replica I might even have put a slight blister in the roof. Over the years of European touring in my coupe I've always found it a very cool car (in all ways!) even in the hottest weather. My brother said the same just last week when we went out and it was mid 30's. It's hard to describe but it's as though the roof is more of a sunshade that a roof. Even better with the little rear quarterlights open.

I believe it is the offset that is critical to great handling of the neg camber set up. Tim