Lancia Motor Club

i have a pretty original s2 appia, very solid as in zero rot just rust. Everyday I drive a boring ford focus back and to and have little driving pleasure , I rarely use my Lancia's as I'm always filthy and don't want to ruin them, please give your opinion on this car, should I put it back in the shed for another 10 yrs (that's how long I've had it!!) until I get time to restore it, should I do a 24hr repaint which is literally a quick buzz down with a sander and repaint, or run "as is" to get it on the road it needs the brakes rebuilding and an exhaust, wheels need painting as they are shot blasted in prima, I have a load of new parts for it ie headlamp rims rear lamps etc, I have the rear bumper and stainless trim etc so can put it to original easily, most of my staff are begging to leave as is as they say its "cool" the way it is, opinions please and I wont be offended

Paint it. Plus fit the grille and rear bumper please!

But I'm betting you couldn't do just that!

Guy

No brainer ..... doesn't even need an MOT !

Looks very tidy, so run it and see what happens, leave the paint til later (or not)

Grant the staff their wish - and see how it goes... 

My bet is it wouldn't be long until you painted it but why not run it "as is" for a while?

David

James, if I may say, you're a tad old to be "ratting" a classic.................BUT................

To H3LL with what everyone else thinks.........just do it...........tatty but sound, rough but running......your Appia will be an example to the rest of us. A quick rub down/blow over to keep the old air and water off the metal, tidy up the safe bits...........

Good luck with decision........:)


P

OLD!!!!!!!!!! I'm 39!!!!!  :'( my basic point is that as your all aware I just don't have the time to do another resto, is it better that its used or stored?? made my decision now anyway thanks to Roger Alias in particular and pretty sure I will put on road "as is " and as and when I feel like it "do a panel" until its done  ;)

Perhaps run 'as is' with steel wheels?

original wheels (3 of) are ready for paint, other 2 are off to blasters in the morning, the wheels on the front are s3 14inch items which are just "runners" the rear wheels in pics are 15inch wheels that were Available to keep it rolling while standard wheels are refurbed , I don't want to wreck it but feel it should be used , always keep looking at it in my dads shed thinking its far too good to just sit there but a bit rough for the road

LOL.....I always associate ratting of classics with guys in their early 20's maybe not able to afford a complete restoration or indeed go against the perceived trends of top to tail "as new" look.

Good luck with it, hope to get a spin in it later in year!


P

James, I really think that it is not difficult. Do enough to stop the body deteriorating, ie do as little as is necessary to keep moisture out of the car and away from the steel. After that, do enough to make it safe, THEN RUN IT !!!!!!  The car will deteriorate more not being run than being used as a daily driver. Keep the fluids up to level, do not abuse it and just enjoy it !!!!!

                               Andy

Run it! Everyday!!

We've had the Fulvia S2 Berlina for exactly a year now and can't stop using it, especially with its new MOT which was gained with almost zilch preparation. It gives not only us but the general public so much pleasure. :D

I think we have become far to precious about the cosmetic appeal of our everyday wheels.

Robin.

what appeals to me is that I can just jump in it in "those trousers" and not be bothered , I can leave it in a car park and know it will be there when I get back, if it gets marked it gets marked, thanks for all the comments much appreciated and helped me decide on going ahead and using it  ;D

I agree with Andy and everyone else including your lads, run it as is!

Brian
8227 8)

When I first had the Aurelia I ran it looking horrible and it was as nice to drive and as much fun then as later.  I always considered paint to be "maintenance" rather than "once its done it will never have to be done again".  It got painted in instalments as bits of metal were done and a blow over the lot in time for a wedding.  It was in the sort of state where if it got marked I probably wouldn't notice or for that matter remember if it was a "new mark" or an old one.

For you with a choice of other immaculate cars you don't have the issue of "her indoors" not wanting to go out in it.

David

David, have you got a series of pics to show its ongoing transition?

P

Run it after a quick blow over to stop the paint getting any worse, old cars are like old cameras they like to be used. I have just bought a 1960's Mamiya Press camera that has been in it's box for 40 years not a mark on it but the shutter and the aperature ring were gummed up solid. How many of the hundreds of classic cars that look A OK are actually in poor mechanical condition due to lack of use.

Aurelia photos are on film - and scanning is a "rainy day" job I'm unlikely to get to soon.  I've got some scans on the upstairs computer.  I'll have a look next time and see if there's "a history".

David

Great thanks...will look forward to those.

Does anyone have film/video of any of the LMC events down the years?

P

Here's a shot from I think 1998.

http://www.lanciaracing.co.uk/othercars/laverd.html

I then spent a lot of money on it, didn't get to compete with it again, and finally sold it on to Jason and Louise Kennedy.

David

...love it....more...........:)


P

ok work has begun , total braking system is off , carb is off, fuel tank out and cleaned inside and out, interior valeted headlamp rims changed (nos ones I happened to have) 1 rear lamp changed ( I only have 1 so I can send other for re chroming now) bumpers removed, over rider off front bumper sent to be tig welded and rear bumper sent too, will keep you all posted as things "happen"  ;) , thankyou all for accepting TXT23 for who she is  :D

Looking forward to seeing (no doubt rapid) progress here.

Numberplate question. There's a B20 with the numberplate TXT25 - which seems a bit of a co-incidence. Can someone here enlighten us, what's the TXT story?

(http://www.lanciamotorclub.co.uk/2010pics/B20-6th-series-George-Minde.jpg)

Going to get period plates for the Appia?

David

I know my appia was imported from Italy , when I have no idea but the previous owner informed me it was imported then he bought it, I know he ran it in the 70's/80's so I can only presume they were plates given by dvla, the import story tallies 100% as its Italian plates are in the boot, as is an I sticker , the car has repeater lamps fitted to the front wings, clear rear indicator lenses and speedo in kmh , maybe someone Imported both  ???

i think i will just leave it all "as is" its its history  ;)

Those yellow plates really show up on the speed camera photos - it would make it harder to blame all the other rat look SII Appia boy racers in the area.

David

GOOD NEWS!!!!  most of you on the forum will remember Warby / Matty , well he text me and phoned today to confirm that he's getting married in July , and in true Matty fashion he wants the S2 as 1 of the wedding cars!! , at first I though surely he meens the S3 , anyway I was wrong , I said to him "whats Helen going to say!!" he said "she knows me well enough to marry me and knows I'm bonkers so she wont be shocked!" so there we have it, pressures on to get her finished!!

Perfect wedding car, everybody will be looking at the dress and not the bodywork ......

For the inlaws to use?

David

I have owned an Appia since 1970. The problem with Appia there is very little paint on the inside of the wings or any real weather protection - just four big mud traps.

When I finally stripped my car down and removed what was left of the wings, I took a wheel barrow of soil out of the area where the body meets the wings. There are rubber seals to keep the mud out but they had long gone. Even now with my restored car with properly painted wings and many tins of underseal it’s a pain to keep the mud traps clear.

If the car you have is the one I told the consortium about, James, I am disappointed - as you say it was ten years ago, and perhaps somebody else could have restored it by now.

I fear that if you  use the car now as it is, you will be faced with an even larger rebuild than if you restored it now. It's O.K. for Simon  to drive an Appia in the South of France all year round but in Britain, with damp weather and salt surely it does not make sense.  

I know - I made that mistake!

I bet that if it were an Aurelia you would not even think of using it. The problem is that people still think of Appias as cheap cars, but they only made just over 3,000 right hand drive 2nd series Appias. The build quality of the body of my Appia is much  better than my Aurelia. Some people describe the Appia as a miniature Rolls Royce.
They’re not cheap any more - see http://annunci.ebay.it/annunci/auto/napoli-annunci-capodimonte-palazzo-reale/lancia-appia-seconda-serie/61654207

So, James - are you destroying our heritage? If not you are getting perilously close...

Hhhhmmmm.....Will has thrown a cat amongst we pigeons!

On page 202 of the book, its stated that only 20 Appias are listed as being on the road, this being the case, it now seems that merely ratting such a rare Lancia might not be in its best interest nor that of the dwindling numbers of Lancias from the 50s/60s......remembering it was the most expensive small car on sale during that era because it was so over-engineered etc.

If you'd reconsider James......even a rolling restoration taking on Will's comments and concerns above.......



P

A further thread here by the.cern a few years back, again, Will's feelings and concerns stated even back then.

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3840.msg27616#msg27616

P

Will to answer your points in order
yes it is the car you told the consortium about (the one that nobody wanted) and I only wish I had your time to restore it, maybe you could come and help??
The consortium WOULD have broken it up for spares if it had been bought by them/us so is it better that I still have it or should it have been scrapped??
I never use my cars in winter so no chance of salt infection and or corrosion, is a car is meant to be driven or sat in a shed? unfortunately with restored new or any cars , they deteriorate and just get worse, they are always at their best when 1st restored and go down hill afterwards (if you use them)
As for if it were an Aurelia, if our 6th series was in the same condition it would be getting used , sorry but I wouldn't care what condition it was in I'd just want to drive it! unfortunately appias augustas fulvia berlina's have always been "cheap" by comparison to their GT equivalents or other more desirable models such as B20's super sports zagato's etc, I'm not saying this is how it should be it just is and probably always will be the same
As for destroying our heritage I don't see how, am I known for doing this?? if so  when where how ??if not then why suggest that  would let the car go to ruin??
so should I sell the car on ? ( I know of 2 more in similar condition that havent sold not even any interest)
should I push it back in the shed and when I have time restore it (probably never)
should I use it (preserve NOT ruin) and restore as I go on

just looked at the 25,000 euro appia, you can ask what you want for something doesn't meen you will get it  :-\ 2nd series appia in concourse condition is worth about a little over half that , if the appia was worth 25k then why has this car not sold at similar money and  more realisticly priced
http://www.europeanclassiccars.co.uk/cars_25.html
I'm not ranting even though this may appear as if I am , I just disagree

Changed my mind.

Use it.

When you can't use it because it's got into too rough a state then you're the one to restore it properly!

Guy

James, thats a B10............looks very nice all the same


P

Fair point.......:)


P

There are many issues here. I believe the fundamental one is a point made frequently to me by Jim ..... at least it is still here !!!!   He would throw this at me when I bemoaned some bodge or whatever. This was the meat of the 'what were they thinking' thread of a short while ago.

The most important thing about your car James is that it is still here. Not only that, there seems every intention of ensuring that it remains here with us. I agree Will, that it would have been great if someone else had acquired the car and carried out a full restoration, but that did not happen.

So, we must start from where we are ...... James has the car, by his own admission he does not have the resources to carry out a full restoration at the moment so it must be another option .... just leave it as is and hope it does not get much worse; try to sell it, but we all know how difficult it would be to find a buyer as restoration costs would be so great; get it roadworthy and run it as a daily driver. Those are the main options, there are variations, but I believe those three pretty much cover it.

James has chosen the last and I applaud that. Above all else it is his car, his decision and his resources that have to go into delivering his chosen outcome. I wish you well in it James.

                                              Andy

PS If it develops a nasty knock, please find out what the hell it is and let me know ..... I still have not found mine!!!!!!!!!

As far as I'm concerned nobody's right and nobody's wrong! What you do with your own possessions is entirely your affair, as long as we all retain the right to voice our own opinions. Mind you, the EU might have a say on that one day soon and then we'll have to tow the line. Hopefully I'll be long gone and sitting on my Lancia badged V8 cloud. ;D

I defend Will's right to say it how he sees it but I also defend my right (and James') to fundamentally disagree. If we were talking about the last Appia ever or a national treasure then maybe, just maybe, I'd feel differently. But we 'aint. For me it's all about driving 'em regardless of what happens next or who comes next. Modestine is out and about as often as possible regardless of what damage I may be doing. I figure that it's strong enough to well out live me and then Jonathan can rebuild it! :o

A number of people questioned the speed at which I was rebuilding Modestine, my reply was, that all I wanted to do was drive it and at my age (or any age?) I couldn't be sure how long I had got. Selfish? Maybe, but hey, it's my life and my money ( Margaret might disagree with the money bit!)  

So, I'm firmly in the camp of the run 'em and to hell with the consequences. But, if you're in the other camp then good on you and all power to your elbow.

As I intimated in an earlier post on the subject, I have a strong nostalgic yearning for the days when scruffy everyday cars were the norm rather than the exception. £125 an hour to service our Alfa 159 at the local dealer just doesn't float my boat. :o

Robin.

Andy, offers still here if you want to get the car up to us I will sort it for you, agree 100% with you and Robin, atleast its still here and I too feel its all about the driving , Will I do agree to a degree with you that the car should be restored and by using it and loving it, it will hopefully spur me on to do more too it, as for the last 10yrs they have flown by too quickly , by the way 10 yrs ago you were getting a batch of radiator muffs made / copied from the 1 off my car, I haven't heard anything from you and as the car will be on the road soon when can I have 1???
opinions vary and I do appreciate everyones input to this thread , the car is going on the road as it is for the next 12 months then hopefully I will have the time to repaint it over the next few yrs, its been steam cleaned underneath ready for waxoil and underseal , i'm going to Don Cross's on sunday for all the new parts for the brakes and exhaust so hopefully 3>4 weeks it will be on the road  :)

Interesting to hear all the views and comments.

Suffice to say, it'll get back on the road, needless to say James has all the skills to bring her back to life and indeed to a sound condition.

Good luck with all your ventures James....and just make sure not to let Warby down!!!!!


P

James,

As a challenge do you think you could protect it well enough and keep a close enough eye on it to use it all year?  With what you know and the facilities you have I think you could...easily...

I ran my Aurelia all year and its still in one piece. When the Kennedys took it on they told me of raised eyebrows when they turned up to Christmas events in it.  The repaint was haphazard to fit in with my urgency to have it on the road (and as it happens my window of opportunity to run that car was tight so that was a very good call indeed) but it lasted well enough for Jason to sort a couple of problem areas with aerosols and those repairs have held another five years or so of hard if occasional use.

They'll be "weak spots" - the mud traps Alan talks of, Will has told me about the boot lids being difficult.  It would be a challenge for sure but "there's always a way" if you're willing to surrender some originality.

On the Aurelia Bernie plated the bottom of an open section just behind the front wheels.  He didn't want waxoil and underseal so as to be able to inspect and repair more easily (discussed elsewhere before) but it got both every year.  It has non original rear screen rubbers and would stay dry street parked.  I did without felt and carpet, just heavy rubber mats with marine grade sound deadening stuck to the back of the mats - in part to be able to inspect and to dry it out in part to be able to strip them for events.

Jacking points are not original - little bits of inch square under the roll cage legs - which makes it quick and easy to get it up in the air as well as preventing damage.  I'd seen too many rusted out jacking points in my time... 

Ali trim rather than chrome was a help.  The bumpers were "beyond repair" items repaired and painted and when they got knocked they'd be repaired and painted.

It wasn't neglected in the sense that it was up on a ramp several times a year but it didn't get washed all that often either.  It was a question of keeping an eye on it and keeping on top of things.  When that was no longer possible I passed it on.

David

This is a picture taken looking in through the scuttle of Simon's Appia van which used to belong to me, just after I bought it. As you can see, there is no paint whatsoever in there. In the case of the van there was no rust either - but that was because it had been in Italy all its life and hardly ever used on salted roads (it was taken off the road after it had done only 39000 miles, which is why it is so good).

I removed the front wing and ground away the (pretty minimal) rust in the outer scuttle, and this is the view looking inside.

The OS scuttle of the Consortium's van is extensively rusted in this area - we repaired the NS scuttle for the MoT, but the OS has an enormous patch pop-riveted on there...

Unless you repair, treat and protect this area thoroughly, INSIDE AND OUT (impossible without removing the front wings, and pretty challenging even if you do), using an Appia as a daily driver in the UK is basically condemning it to death.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if you have paid for the car it is your perfect right to do that.

But IMHO it is a bit sad, and if everyone does it it won't be long before there are no old cars left...

...however, using one in southern France is fine... ;)

Alan , with over 25 years specifically in the bodywork trade I do know a little about rust protection and preservation of cars, also sharing a unit with a PAS125 body shop more than helps me being bang up to date on approved repairs sealants and anti corrosion products, thankyou for the picture and advice on the scuttle and I will treat it properly and not with cure rust rubbish that so many people swear by , rest assured like I said to Will the car will not be allowed to deteriorate and  IMHO it saddens me that you both seem to think that I would do that , again like I said to Will I was unaware that I was known for ruining cars and I will ask you the same as him, when where how? also IMHO I find it sad not to use a car for regular/ everyday use, what was it designed and built for in the first place and why have an ornament in the garage rather than pleasure on the road? nothing I hate more than trophy trailer queen cars that just don't get used, all my cars are kept in a damp garage , not by choice but its that or outside, none of them are rusty as they have all been properly protected, if you were me what would you do with it? let it sit in the shed or try and get some use out of it?

Seeing that car in storage some would see it as "asleep" - I saw it as "dead".  What I see James doing now is "bringing it back to life". 

He was inspired by Simon's approach to "an everyday Appia" and who knows who else might be inspired by James to follow through a project seen by others as "beyond hope".

I agree its not possible to both use and preserve a car in its original finish, or lack of finish.  It might not be possible without structural modification or redesign. To me it would be a shame to submit a "reference example" to such use in the same way its a shame to see a "reference example" over restored or indeed restored at all.  With some reference examples its a shame to see them even sat in - they really do belong in museums.

As to a "death sentence" my view with James is that its not going to rot to the point where it becomes something he can't "bring back from the dead".  This isn't a car that will be run for a year then bangered and scrapped.

David

James, we have never met, but hope to do so at some point, but I would like to offer my support for your point and do find some of the comments somewhat over the top given

a) Your obvious infatuation with older Lancias and

b) The standard of work you attain with the cars you work on.

So, personally, I would ignore the doubters and carry on as you planned, which I suspect you would anyway...

Peter

many thanks and much appreciated , if ever your in this neck of the woods and this applies to all lancisti call in, always good to meet other enthusiasts  :)

I'm outside tinkering with my Appia, so I'll do a quick reply, labelled for ease:

a) I can claim 41 - started in 1973. Mostly hobby rather than trade, but you can take your time more when it's a hobby...
b) The two people whose car work I respect the most are you (and your Dad) and Simon Ingman & Dog, his body man. I am not trying to impugn your abilities at all; merely trying to ensure that others don't see this as carte blanche to drive Appias all the year round and not bother to look after them. How do you think the one you've got got into that state to begin with? Lots of people don't read from our hymn sheet.
c) I don't - you invented that bit, because it's not in anything I wrote.
d) As I said, not aimed at you. Your work is fantastic, especially the Ardea pickup and your Dad's 'Carrozzeria Parry' Astura.
e) This might be where we diverge a bit. Everyday use - yes. Everyday use without A LOT of hard work to keep it looking nice, drying it regularly, keeping the salt off - no.

I don't know if you are familiar with the American expression 'rode hard and put up wet' (which is what kills horses), but riding cars hard and putting them up wet is what kills them.

If you wash the salt off and dry them every day before you store them - fine. Most people, however, haven't got the sophisticated knowledge of car construction and care to take the proper care of their cars, which is why there are so many knackered and rusty Lancias (and other cars) around. They can be made to last indefinitely if looked after properly, but most people don't do it.

I had a Lotus 7 customer who had a 1962 Lotus 7 that he had owned since new (he's getting on a bit), and he uses it EVERY DAY throughout the year, and it is in all original and absolutely perfect condition. I don't know if you have ever looked closely at the suspension of a 7, but keeping that uncorroded is virtually impossible. He told me that he NEVER put the car away without cleaning and drying all of it (including the suspension), and polishing it where necessary. That's the level of commitment necessary if you want to use it all year and keep it in any kind of reasonable state.

Most people (in fact virtually all of them) don't 'get' that. Like Will, I found out the hard way (by ruining a car driving it all the time and storing it outside). Like Will I still have the car, but unlike Will I haven't restored it (again) yet. That's for the future - and boy, do I wish I'd looked after it better.

f) See e)

I am doing just that - both my 1954 Appia and my 1937 Terraplane are 100% (Appia) or 75% (Terraplane) original. But as mentioned in the previous post, I don't take either of them out in the rain, keep them in dry storage, don't use them in winter, etc. As you say (David) the amount of paint (lack of paint) on both is staggering. The Terraplane basically has no paint on the underside of the floor at all.

As it is a well-known 'reference car' for Terraplane enthusiasts (I don't know of any other all-original S1 Appias either...), I obviously don't want to ruin their originality and worth in that role by restoring or rustproofing them and compromising their originality. But that also means I have to avoid moisture like the plague - and do.

Now that I am in France that's obviously a lot easier, but I've had the Appia since 2000 and the Terraplane since 2006, both in England until recently, and they haven't deteriorated at all.

They both would have done if I'd used them in winter though. But I regard myself as their custodian rather than their owner - at some point I will sell both and/or die, and they will pass to someone else to preserve them.

The Terraplane has outlived 5 of its 7 owners (the bloke who sold it to me is 85), and I confidently anticipate that it will outlast both him and me.

In fact I regard it as my duty to our cultural heritage to ensure that it does just that.

a. wont argue about that as I was born in 1974 but started work in a bodyshop in 1991 as an apprentice
b.many thanks, agreed on simon and dog , that car sat outside under a cover for years on a drive in all the elements uncared for, that is not my intension however accept your point that others (unlikely) may do it and not realise how to preserve the car
c. I oppologise its the way I read it
d. thanks again , that's cleared up my paranoia  ;)
e. I have previously said that the car would not see salt and my intension is to use it for back and too to work, rain doesn't scare me , trapped mud and salt do, as I've said previously I simply won't allow any of my cars even my modern everyday vehicle get into a state of dis repair , a very nice lorry driver smashed down the side of my 54 plate fiat ducato works van, most said leave it its an old van , no chance its being repaired as I don't wish it to deteriorate , even that's cavity waxed (by me) sits outside all year round , I have owned it since its 3rd birthday and no rust, they are not the best underneath either for protection hence why I did what I did, I am fanatical about preserving things and making sure they don't rust, I have a Landrover so I HAVE TO BE!!!!, eitherway its going on the road for me to enjoy and get some use out of, I promise that it will not get worse just better over time

All sorted James!

Lost in translation sometimes happens on a forum.

WE all know what you're about and how you approach things.......

Enjoy bringing the little A back to life....look forward to a spin in her later on!


P

Top man!

Alan, thanks for the vote of confidence - although I don't fully agree -  James is a professional, doing professional work to an amazing standard. We are strictly enthusiastic amateurs by comparison ...... with the van, we had an amazing vehicle so had a great start.

Back to James' Appia, please get her back on the road (full of waxoyl and underseal) and share the pleasure ! Along with many people, seeing an old and interesting car on the road makes me smile - perfect or otherwise

ps if you are keeping the yellow plates, keep the mag alloys and leave the bumpers off - pimp her up - as a youth might say

its got to be said I needed that post, bust my sides laughing , as for amateur work I have seen so called professional work to far lesser standard than yours!!!! always impressed as i'm sure most on the forum are too by how thorough your work is, I have to admit I don't like the professional term as I always feel and worry that expectations may not be met , I probably like you just work to the best of my ability but most importantly ENJOY IT!!!  ;)

"Amateur" can sometimes (rare but sometimes) be to a higher standard than "professional" as there's no need to work to the clock or budget. 

David

David I wouldn't say that it was rare, the problem these days is a lot of body shops work on bonus where they are given a set time to repair a vehicle, lets just say 10 hrs for example, if the employee takes 7 hrs to repair he gets paid 10 hrs, if he takes 12 hrs to repair he gets paid 10 hrs, so doesn't take much working out what happens, this is partly the reason I got out of body work on newer vehicles as I was generally reworking other staffs bodges or rush jobs, looking at the standards of work done by MANY on this forum it does put a lot of professional work to shame, I've yet to see anything on here that's made me raise an eyebrow and I read most topics and posts as anyones project interests me , so well done everyone  ;)

Well James, I read this very interesting discussion that indeed seems to at least 'free' some heavy emotions.
Well I still have my first Lancia ever, a 1980 Beta coupé 2000, and I restored it extensively inside and out, everything new.  The story is: i still have it, and have driven it for 4km's in 20 years, because I did'nt want it to deteriorate.  Now THAT is real car agbuse I can tell you.  So my advise would be: USE IT!
I intend to put the Beta on the road and not care about it seeing some rain, as nog it's just a sad car in storage.
And for my furgoncino: I intend to do the same: do the necessary welding and see it will not deteriorate, and use it.

My daily driver is a Thema 1st series 8V turbo in winter and a Gamma Saloon for vthe summer do I feel bad about it? not very often.
So you have my full support, cars are made to be driven, not to be stored.

James, you say you will treat the scuttle of your car "properly, not with cure rust rubbish". Is there a simple treatment you recommend for surface rust?

thankyou and totally agree  :)

In the past I have used (not by choice) and witnessed others using cure rust products, this will often cause micro blisters in paint afterwards (not immediately but fairly quickly ) my uncle was a metallurgist and always told us to prevent rust or stop it getting worse it needs to be starved of oxygen / air , the simplest way of doing this is with a good quality cavity wax such as Wurth products, what I find is that the wurth product is so thin that it runs between seems on body panels before it solidifies therefore stopping any water or air getting into seams , there is great debate at the moment about chemical stripping of cars which is acid based, when the car is dipped the acid runs into seams and is trapped, as soon as water/ air comes into contact with it it will burst out in rust bubbles, trust me I've seen it happen on a MK2 escort that was done, I use either a shutz gun or I also have a proper cavity wax gun with lances and drill holes out of sight and fill box sections in the car until its running out of seams, the 1600HF we have just finished had 1ltr in each sill alone, a total of 6 ltrs were put into the car and probably 2 ran back out of it, waxoil is very good but not thin enough to run into seems and I tend to use that underneath where its good for a thick protective covering, its very simple but very effective , sounds too good to be true but honestly works,  :)

James, thank you. Does that mean that if rust shows on the surface of a hidden flat panel one should simply apply a layer of the wax product sufficient to cover the rusty-looking portion?

Done the same before James with Dinitrol, cavity and surface proofing...well worth doing ( regularly mind you) and so much cheaper than cutting out and putting in new metal again! Plus will do same soon to B12 when bodywork completed.


P

if its a panel that cannot be cleaned due to lack of access then yes, if the rust can be cleaned off then do so, etch prime and either wax or seal with a good wax underseal or cavity wax, example : fulvia front wings between the arch and A post cannot be reached without removal of front wings, there will be rust down the due to lack of factory paint, I feed the plastic lance off the cavity wax gun down there and running flat out move forwards and backwards and up slowly if you get what I meen, as the solvent evaporates moisture condenses on the outside of the wing (painted surface) so gives a very good indication of the area covered by wax (that its uniform and no where is missed), the wax naturally runs down so starting from the bottom up it just keeps running down into the most vunerable areas where water collects

Thank you James. I have to say by the way that I am very supportive of the idea of running old cars that are practical for normal use rather than storing them for eventual but perhaps improbable restoration. Your idea of running as is however sounds as good or better than a lot of restorations. Happy motoring with the Appia! Cesare

Chugga - if you ever fancy a little break in France and bring your rustproofing equipment............................

I think it will be a while before he offers that Omicron "fly to you in our light aircraft" service - as much as anything as its so hard to drag him away from his workshop.  The way to get him down to you is to find half a van stripped for spares and abandoned as unrestorable.  He'd be there like a shot for it...

David

David....you're such a hooligan....but in a pleasing way.....;)


P

.................there is an very ancient chassis nicely overgrown in the village.

Pictures are now required after that teaser

Peter

Busy tomorrow - taking the Fulvia out to see Tour Auto arrive at Dijon with luck - but will try to get one this week.

when viewing our house, I viewed the garages and drive area while Beckie viewed the house  ;) , what seemed to be plenty has quickly filled , I have now resorted to hiding things under things outside so she doesn't notice, I'm most proud of my wood pile next to the garages which she parks next to everyday..............probably not realising that there is a complete appia rear axle springs and wheels under  :D

That reminds me of someone I knew who couldn't stop buying RC aircraft to build. He had stacks in the attic. He said once you reach a 'critical mass' your wife can't keep up with what's happening.

James,
What's it worth not to bubble you to Beckie ;D

Brian
8227 8)

ongoing adventures of chugga on the forum??? that's all I can offer  ;)

That'll do, your off the hook!
When are we going to see the beast?

Brian
8227 8)

i'm just applying for the v5  ::) been to Don's for all the brake parts etc , i'm hoping it will be running/driving in the next 3 weeks however its low priority at the moment as customers cars come first, I want it on the road for the agm so I can cause OUTRAGE  :D  ;) I heard a great line on the tv show "fast and loud" that paint jobs taken 57 years to look that good , why spoil it!

Is this too good to be "ratted"....or just a basis for "ratting".............answers on a carte postale.....;)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RENAULT-KZ5-/251502410949?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3a8eb63cc5

P

That looks totally perfect as it is. Just needs a dead matt varnish to keep it like that forever. Love those tyres.

Simon just for you , looks odd without the front bumper as on an s2 sedan the front wings finish just below the top of the front bumper, wings are nothing like the van/pickup wings, have you ever seen a morris minor with no front bumper, if so you will get what I meen, made some progress today, car has been steam/powerwashed off underneath and under arches so is now really clean for preservation, fuel tank has been resealed again (total of 3 times....just to be sure) gear linkage and handbrake all freed off, bumpers refitted (after welding and buffing), tomorrow I'm hoping to underseal and cavity wax, sunday busy on other things but next weekend I will hammer into it and hopefully running and driving, may have to swap the head yet as the banjo bolt for the inlet manifold water pipe feels like its going to snap, I happen to have a NOS head in the parts dept so I think the cars worthy, I'm also looking for an early weber manifold for the 6 port head, I have 2 carbs but only 1 manifold (which is reserved for the Ardea pickup)

Still love those wheels !

- what a parts department - Looking forward to seeing you back on the road !

exactly  ;)

looks fantastic, 84 year old paint job that's still "evolving" agreed matt laquer and use it, would make a hell of a company advert!

James.....matt laquer........can you give me a fuller explanation of exactly is involved......or just powerhose, dry and spray on?


P

any paint needs a "key" to stick to, I've never done it myself but from what I have seen origional paint is scotch brighted , rust is left alone and laquer applied, think that's it

Ok.....powerhose, dry, do any body work prep to worst spots/areas......ie rub down or just orbital grinder on(?).......scotch brighted  means?

Basically its as you always advocated.....deprive metal of air and water and its stays in same condition ad infinitum?

P

if your doing a "true" rat look, you don't rub any rust down you leave well alone, scotch bright is like the green plastic brillo pads that you use on your pots and pans, you rub that all over the paint that's left to just key up the paint so that the laquer will stick to it, the laquer is normal 2k with matting agent to make it go dull, this is then painted over the whole body to seal it and stop it getting worse, another trick used by ratters is just cooking oil all over it to stop it rusting

Ok........think I'd opt for the first......smelling like a chip van doesn't appeal!

And the ultra weathered/look wooden sections?


P

same again, just laquer over it, wood doesn't need keying up as its porous

I surprise myself to say it - but it looks ok on those wheels...

well to be fair they are period BRM / Speedwell replicas 6j 15 rears 4.5j 15 fronts with 155-80-15 Toyo's, clear everything perfectly  :)

PLEASE !!

Yes...why not, seems like a perfectly reasonable suggestion.........."RAT5 'R' U5" class


P

DO IT!!!!!  ;) we can stand on our own together then lol :D

more wok don today, ground off all the underseal and rust off the sills, made a new bottom for the rear panel and fitted it, welded up 2 small holes in the rear inner wings, cleaned inner wings ready for underseal , etch primed sills and rear panel , anti stonechip painted them, will 2k prima in the morning, sending bonnet off on Monday for colour match and have decided to matt laquer the repaired areas after coloured to blend in with the rest

Your rear valance is prettier than mine - before and after !

Lots more pictures please !

That was a lot quicker than mine!

Great stuff .........goes to the Brothers in Appias!


P

I think its safe to say I'm not ruining it  ;) I'm still amazed at how solid it is underneath, would have been criminal if it had gone to the consortium

4ltrs of 3m underseal under just the front wings, will do the rest and cavity wax once the exterior paint is blended in later this week

Sprayed on, or painted on......seems rather a lot, unless you applied layer after layer?

P

sprayed on, to be fair its actually a huge area and it was 3 good coats so really thick

a bit more done, interior has been completely out and cleaned, floors sanded and painted and sealed, interior back in, door locks and window winder mechanisms freed off , gear linkage rebuilt, sills and rear panel painted and blended in  ;) exterior door handles changed for better ones, grill swapped, new copper brake pipes through out and flexi hoses, tank sealed and now painted, wheel cylinders master cylinder and resovoir rebuilt, the whole underside now cleaned and sealed and then undersealed , sill trims plannished and buffed , I'm sure theres more that I've forgotten, anyway hopefully tomorrow it will have a braking system and fuel system sorted aswell as exhaust and new propshaft couplings

few more pics

"a bit more done"...!!!!!

Are you keeping a note of time or just bits and bobs as and when?   I'd be fascinated to know how many hours for that "little" list.

As ever I'm inspired as to how much can be done in a short period elapsed given focus and facilities.

David

I'm worried that Chugga's put the Fulvia on the back burner.... I was really enjoying that one!

Guy

regrettably I think the fulvia is going, need the funds for something else  ;) its all up in the air at the moment , don't want to promise the car then bail out of the sale however I will know within the next week what I'm doing, I've not lost interest in it its just unfortunate out of all my vehicles aprilia's and fulvia's sell quickly and for more money than appia's , however if I do sell don't panic as I'm sure i'll find something else to do  :D anyway, more progress today, full day on it again tomorrow , aim to finish it this week and get it home until DVLA make up their minds on a log book

more progress today, started on the brakes 1st, they were all fitted yesterday however I didn't have time to put fluid in until this morning, this car has series 3 front brakes (twin leading shoe) and (take note simon) they are sometimes a royal pain in the back side to refit without leaks, the problem with them is the back of the cylinder (alloy) corrodes where the banjo bolts for the link pipes connect.
I had 4 stainless steel sleeved replacement units from the appia consortium and used (from previous experiences) common sence to have the rear faces skimmed to a nice flat un pitted surface, I then chose to re use the original copper washers off the banjo unions but carefully annealing them 1st (heating with gas torch until red/orange and cooling off whilst red in a cup of water)
This all worked well accept for the o/s lower banjo connection leaked under pressure from the resovoir , removed again (back plate off again!!) and inspected, 1 copper washer had a slight bur so I replaced with another spare item which again I annealed , final result is that all the brakes now seem to work and its holding hydrolic pressure from the resovoir , the plunger should stay up all the time to act like a servo under braking , also the banjo bolts must not be over tightened just "nipped" otherwise the banjo unions distort and you have no chance of sealing , when they leak its not always obvious as it runs down between the cylinder and back plate into the drum, the 1st you know about it iss not being able to stop!
exhaust is now on, the center section that I already had in stock is not correct and I presume series 1  ??? its a foot too long and the bends are in the wrong place  :( so I decided to refit the original front pipe and center with a new back box for the time being,
Fuel tank is now in after being painted as is electric fuel pump and the wiring is now strung in for it too, hand brake took it of sorting out bt again now seems to work ok, done plenty of other little jobs finishing things off, I aim for the car to be finished this week, dad is busy reconditioning 3 starter motors that I have and then mine and matty's carbs

On the road yet ? What's next ?

will be finished this weekend........I HOPE!!!!, all sorts done, mostly fiddley jobs, water pump changed, NOS distributer fitted, new coil fitted, recon dynamo fitted , whilst fitting I took out the wear in the pivot bolt hole in the crank case, it was reamed out to 10mm then a 7.5id sleave pulled through in 2 halfs so that the timing case can still be removed then reamed again to 8mm and now the dynamo sits square to the crank case and zero play in the pivot, radiator and engines cooling system flushed , cooling hoses replaced , rad painted and shutters freed off, air horns repaired, fuel system all finished new hoses , electric pump fitted (finished off) , front drums and wheels back from machining so fitted and brakes adjusted, few bits of interior trim altered/ changed, engine bay and engine steam cleaned , timing done, new bosch blue coil fitted and connecters replaced around the engine bay, still more wiring to check over , starter and carb to fit then hopefully we'll be in business, lots of fiddley jobs left such as changing the front side lamps , sorting out the screan washers etc, will put some more pics up over the weekend  :)

very productive day today, tied up most of the loose ends and now she runs!!!, it would have been rude not to try her out around the industrial estate, drives fantastic, engine is absolutely sweet as a nut with no back pressure or smoke, cracking oil pressure 25psi at idle , most things seem to be working now, my dad had a go and he was equally impressed, 1st picture is him driving it, he had to admit that the wheels have even grown on him now so that's "permission" to keep them in my eyes

Good going.

Safe and sound the main thing......aesthetics........as and when

P

That's a beautifully shaped little car - especially the rear 3/4 view. The wheels are fun - looks like a Corgi Whizzwheels. Reminded me of an 50's MG Magnette I saw many years ago at a Silverstone VSCC day. It was bright red with chrome wires and it gave it such a different look.

WELL DONE !!!

HERO !!!

I agree with the "toy car" comment with those wheels - which I like - but I think its the front number plate more than the rear that jars.  I like those mirrors.

With the paint (or lack) I'm wondering what an Appia looks like with a two tone...  From some angles it looks like a cream roof.

Are you able to post something on YouTube?  Would love to see and hear it.

David

David I suffer with "technophobia" and have no idea how to post on youtube  :D car passed its MOT today with flying colours, only thing picked up on was a missing bolt in the front axle which the tester knew I would sort, anyway back to the unit to replace the bolt and found ALL the axle bolts were loose !!! :o this brings me to my next point that MOT exempt is a STUPID idea, the appia is a 57 so technically exempt however I'm glad of peace of mind to pay for another person to double check my work and anyone elses previous work, anyway take the old girl home and put her away until a log book arrives.........................I wish!! clutch went on the way home just slipping on hills, so atleast I think I know why it came off the road, quick call to Don and should be here next week , a few other precaution jobs to do such as the oil pressure gauge pipe, heater fan is missing so needs sorting and the wax cartridge for the thermostatic shutters is knackered, slight play in a steering silent block so replacing all 4, keep you posted

How good are the door and screen seals? 

David

I couldn't remember the interior so just looked back.  That's rather nice...almost too nice...  Seat covers?

David

Is that total MOT exemption for old cars in the UK? As from my last control technique here, cars registered as 'vehicles de collection' as mine now is only has to have a CT once every 5 years. That seems quite a long time too for someone not to spot a deteriating brake line or whatever (or loose bolts as you said). Obviously I haven't got a vehicle lift so I can only check what I can see and then what I can see is limited by my knowledge. Maybe they think classic car owners take more care about their cars upkeep which is true to a point but total exemption does seem a bit far. Anyway, congratulations on reviving another Lancia - doesn't seem very long ago at all that you were wondering whether to do it or not.

The MOT exemption is, to my mind utterly ridiculous. I accept that to expect an older car to fully comply with say the emission requirements or indeed braking and other requirements if considering veteran or vintage cars, but to totally disregard a whole body of cars is tempting providence. An annual basic check on the fundamental soundness of a vehicle should be the absolute minimum requirement. This would be to the benefit of the owner, the driver, passengers and other road users not to mention the whole classic and old car movement. There would rightly be an uproar if there were to be road traffic accident deaths or injuries arising from the use of unroadworthy cars exempt from all testing.

I will continue to see Ivor the MOT on a nominally annual basis for my own peace of mind and I would hope that others will also get some sort of annual check, especially in the light of Chugga's experience!!

                              Andy

That's all it will take - an MOT exempt classic up on the pavement with brake failure and the Daily Mail won't let up until all cars over 5 years old are scrapped.

busy weekend again, 1st job was to replace the worn / slipping clutch, this took all of yesterday as the car had had a few dubious mechanical quirks that need rectifying whilst the box was out ie bodged speedo cable , bodged clutch release mechanism , various stripped threads , gearbox came out a total of 3 times to sort out these issues however now I can say that it ALLLLLLLLLL GOOD  ;D
next job was to change the silent blocks in the steering arms as there was play detected but didn't seem too bad for the mot however I decided to change them, damn good job I did as they were actually pretty knackered when inspected properly , removing them and refitting new ones (bear in mind there is only 3 on this car) took a whoping 4 hrs!!! most of that was getting the o/s to bits which had totally seized ,gas was the only option as even a puller wouldn't shift it,
next job when it was all back together was the wheel alignment and final job was to fit a tail pipe trim as the exhaust was staining the rear panel

Any tips for taking the gearbox out without the engine ? Remove prop - for sure, select a specified gear ? Tip front of engine ?

Test drive in the morning ?

remove top hose and drain coolant
remove air cleaner
remove oil pressure gauge pipe ( may not need to i used it as an excuse to replace mine)
turn cooling fan so that blades are horizontal (if vertical the blades hit radiator)
disconnect gear linkage from box
remove speedo cable from box end
disconnect clutch release push rod from pedal box
remove front pipe and support bracket
remove propshaft
remove bell housing inspection plate
undo all pressure plate bolts through inspection hole in gearbox bell housing
support front of engine (I use a jack and rubber block under leading edge of sump, engine tries to tilt forward when box is removed)
remove rear gearbox bolt out of tunnel with gearbox supported
tilt gearbox
remove all the gearbox bolts/nuts
remove box (will take a bit of effort to separate )
I think that was it ,pretty easy takes about an hour on a ramp with 2 people, refitting is just a reverse of above just remember to shorten the clutch release push rod otherwise the clutch will not disengage, drove it today and it feels fine, valet in the morning  :)

Only problem is -  it is now too good to use !!!!!

I'm dying to use it just waiting on DVLA  >:(

Trade plates?

A Lancia is never to good to use in my opinion.....

Hi James

Having followed this from the start including the discussion on how far to go with the refurb, I felt a need to make the following observations.....

1) Awesome job, your capacity for work is to be applauded as well as attention to the details.

2) Given the amount of new parts and what had to be taken off and refurb'd, would it have been that much more to go for a respray etc? (Sorry if a naive question, I am not into cars which the paintwork 'looks' tat, but are good underneath)

I realise we would then be back to deciding a colour.........

Peter

to repaint it would be a major strip down and the car (after looking closely) is beyond a quick repaint , my intension is to do a rolling restoration , I will start with the rear wings and scuttle as I get time and bare metal them , repair and prep them properly , once in prima put a light coat of base coat on to match the rest of the car , if I keep working around it like that it will still be a rat but being restored , eventually it will be ready for a proper paint job , love the car and really want to do it properly but just no time to do it at the moment , I think i'll run it this summer and hopefully (if theres room here) put it in a corner and chip away at it through the winter  :)

I guess the alternative would have been "the blow over" to look good at 30ft & 30mph - which is as I did early on then getting Bernie to bare metal and paint properly bits at a time as he remade the front fog lights, fitted correct rear lights, sealed the front screen, rear screen, repaired the rear valance etc.  My "blow over" motivation was a friends wedding.  You have Warby who DOESN'T want it painted before his wedding.

At AutoItalia there was a 1600HF in matt laquer.  Alas not on their stock page.  The sheet in the window was trying to have it both ways as a "preserve" as its so original and restore "as it needs it" which made me smile.  I'd go between for "lived in" and get the rusty bits painted but leave the rest.  For sure the edges would show and the colour not quite match but with a shine on it not so much I'd care.  Interior was livable, perhaps with a couple of seams re-stitched.

http://www.dtrsports.com/carsforsale.asp

David

.

.

David, an interesting car we has a good look on Saturday, the doors closed nicely!  But we reckon it need a subframe or box repair or even both, seemed pretty original and complete.  What puzzled many of us why it was parked in the inner sanctum, usually reserved for exotica and rare vehicles?  I know it was put there by a dealer who wanted to maximise his chance of a sale as there is the maximum footfall in that location, but it did look a bit sorry against the other three Lancias parked there, may be a little further out would have been better, we don't want do discuss the R word here...

I'd say "faded charm" but in need of a bit of TLC rather than artful "hold that rust just as it is".  In terms of r*t-look a friend selotaped bits of wire wool to a car and left it in the rain to get just the right rust streaking - to give him an excuse it was set dressing for a video.  William was telling me what the rust-u-quick recipe was with coke and salt or something which he'd seen on a kids art show.  I'd rather an obvious bit of "silver" over those scabs...and a lot of wax.

David

- silent blocks in the steering arms of an Appia ???

Rust-U-Quick is salt and vinegar from "Deadly 60 Art Attack" on the TV.

David

yes same as aprilia and augusta , late appia's have the rose joint type trackrod ends this car is a really early 57 registered march 1957 , it has center ash tray in dash, no temp gauge , no heater valve in the cylinder head (has a tap on the back of the block) lots of differences , to quote Norman Stewart and my dad "there is no such thing as a standard Lancia"  ;)

Ok, understood and makes sense.

Peter

Suitable ratting material.....sorry it aint a Lancia, just caught my eye



P

well looks like I'm going to have a few problems with DVLA , it seems the chassis number doesn't match their records , they can tell me that on their records it starts with C10 but the last few digits are wrong  ??? wrong order or totally wrong I have no idea , spoke to a lady in DVLA who was very helpful , she's asked for photo's of chassis number , chassis plate , reg plates and car, so from my point of view isn't it a good job that I didn't restore and remove/replace any of these items, atleast I can prove that its been like it is for years!!! ;)

Oh joy ....
surely it shouldn't be a problem, you have a registration number - can you find an old tax disk or something ??

Good luck !

Well James, I can tell you that putting an Appia gearbox back, one man and no vehicle lift is not an easy job, but it is feasible. One caveat, you need an experienced person to point out that the way to tilt the engine, so that the gearbox will go back on, is to jack up the front of the engine!!!! Jim and I spent a fruitless 4 hours trying to get a Series 1 gearbox onto the back of a Series 2 engine. How were we to know that there are 2 more securing studs on a Series 2. We would have found out much more quickly if we had known how to tilt the engine, I was trying to tilt it by levering the top of the engine at the front!!! Possible but decidedly dodgy and without real control.

                                              Andy

Had the same thing happen several times, when I first put "Fay" back on the road they wouldn't let me have her old registration number as they said FAY prefix had never been issued on a 'D' suffix, took me best part of six months to sort out and prove that it had; I next fell foul of them with one of my Dedras, according to the DVLA it was a white 1600cc LHD, in fact it was a black 2.0ie RHD, Tim Speechley got hold of them for me and sorted it out, seems that someone at the DVLA had transcribed it wrong previously.
Another problem was with a Honda Moped, they said the frame number was wrong but wouldn't tell me what the problem was, just that it didn't match, the frame number was stamped on but it was a very poor stamping, finally got it sorted after trying different combinations.
I wonder just how many cockups the DVLA make every year, going by our experiences it must be astronomical!
Good luck James, hope you get it sorted.

Brian
8227 8)