Lancia Motor Club

check out the pics they show the renewed gear linkage bushes

there's more. radio is back in dash not working yet!! if ever, door trims are all good,Put the flywheel back on after a regrease of the bearing, need the torque wrench settings for the flywheel bolts

Got the flywheel torqued up and replaced the clutch plate and cover only after I had spun the engine round on the starter for a couple of minutes, no oil leaks so good to go! put in all the spark plugs handy tip use a rubber tube to turn the plug before nipping it up.

the next pics show the engine as it is now I can almost hear that powerful burble of that V4!

pics now clutch is on

clutch on. next is fit gearbox and torque up clutch cover any tips or advice on this stage?
Clarkey

Hi all
thanks for all the advice and tips for fitting the clutch and gearbox. After reading my Appia repair guide I took the clutch off the flywheel and installed it in the bell housing then fitted it to the engine. Fastening the bolts through the bellhousing 'bombdoor' is a pain, after this was done I tried the clutch arm and could see the sleeve move towards the gearbox but could net get the arm to move further back to disengage the clutch. I had 2 theories about this one the sleeve had rotated and was upside down or secondly I could not get enough oomph on the clutch lever with just single hand pressure. So to alleviate the first doubt off came the gearbox but I left the clutch attached to the flywheel and then made sure the sleeve was correct replaced the gearbox.

Guess what? the clutch action was the same and still can't move the arm more than 1.5". Any comments? any advice or help always welcome.
Ahh.. that's what that goes in there.
Clarkey

Clutch plate fitted the wrong way round ???

Hope that it is as simple as that !

Look forward to seeing the engine back in

Hi
don't think so it has a longer side that must go into the clutch because if you put it in the other way it would foul the flywheel. It might just be 40+ years of inactivity, I might have to take it out and see if I can split the clutch cover and have a look inside. today i have mainly been pulling out some of the fritzed wiring in the engine bay. see pics any body know what the alloy cylinder thing is?
Clarkey

Been busy tidying the wiring up under the bonnet. First the postman brought me a parcel... Started where I left off yesterday by clearing away all the old crispy stuff and starting a new loom at the dynamo/starter end

The next thing to do was start wrapping the loom in the stretchy PVC tape

here is a pic of some of the old wiring it is completely shot, the new cable is a combo of thinwall stuff very skinny and traditional PVC covered a bit thicker but same current rating. The wire spiral tubes to the headlights were rusted out so I have got some plastic replacements so will put them in later.

The next pics show the loom round now to the fusebox. I cut all the cables off leaving a tale as they have alloy rings with numbers on so I can reterminate all the new stuff..... some nice new fuses will go in after I have given the fuse box a clean up. I am hoping the wiring inside the car is in better condition??? any advice??? if not I will have to rip it all out.
Clarkey

Great work, where did you get the kit of wire and connectors etc from?

P

Hi it is a company called Vehicle Wiring Products at www.vehicleproducts.co.uk They do all sorts of brake, lighting, fastenings etc. Thing is ordered on line Sunday evening the stuff came this morning get on!! The crimper thing is great strip the wire push into the terminal put in the crimper and squeeze, checked the first couple but couldn't pull the wire out with a pair of pliers so a good tool.
Clarkey

Replace it before you let the smoke out....

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

Thanks, that will be useful


P

The OEM smells of burning Bakelite and plastic! love it!

Hi

I have also found Vehicle Wiring very efficient and the products as advertised. For my Beta, I have replaced all the spade and bullet connectors. I am not a great fan of simple crimp connections, especially in the engine bay, so purchased the bare crimps without insulation and separate covers for them. I then stripped the wires, tinned with solder, inserted into the crimp, crimped and then soldered them. This way no ingress of water is going to eventually cause an issue with the crimp. Just my 2 penny worth....

Peter

Hi Peter
many moons ago I used to work as a telecoms engineer with BT or Post Office Telecommunications as it was then and to join copper cables we used a crimping device that employed grease filled crimps that went over the copper wires twisted together. As far as I can tell not a great success. so I guess if you remove any space for the water to get into you will reduce the chances of corrosion. probably when the car is on the road it might be a mod to do to all the exposed terminals.
Clarkey

You ask about the wires inside the car. Having made such a good start on a loom why not keep going and be done with it? 

David

Hi David
makes sense I will finish off under the bonnet and have a poke about behind the dash. I have not got the key for the ignition and need to replace the series 1 ignition switch with a series 2 one I have, so that might be the time I renew that part of the loom. This new Thinwall stuff will be dead easy to make into a new loom as it is very small diameter cable compared to the old fabric covered stuff.
Clarkey

In for a penny sand all that... got the urge to sort out the underdash wiring and the ecosystem living down the back of the fuse box... see the pics. first I put numbers on all the new cables at the fusebox end and then tapped out (BT jargon) each wire using a multimeter and then numbered the action end of the new cables. The fuse box as I left it... nasty.

Went a bit berserk after a slow start and ended up with the dashboard completely out and the fuse box all nice and clean

Getting the dash out is easy enough a few bolts on each side ,one at the back and 3 screws in the glovebox. All the knobs on the dash came off OK but Lancia choose different methods and screw threads for fixing them on some have a grub screw others just screw off. Speedo is held in with 3 clamps and thumbscrews easy as. I will get the dash repainted while it is out it has a fair few chips and knocks. It is now easy to get to the back of the fuse box and pull out all the old cable. I will use the old loom as a pattern

Have given the old fusebox a clean up it now looks a lot less crusty and should cope with damp better now all the dead flies, moths leaves etc have been vacumed out. The rubber seal at the back of the fuseback might need renewing or a bit of mastic! Will have to order up some more cable and decide what to do about the loom that goes behind (I think ) the head ling. I might cut it of and fit a multiway connector joint under the dash for now while I get the engine going (or not!)

Brilliant progress - and I'm sure you'll not regret the effort making a proper job behind the dash.

Any tips from cleaning the fuse box?

With the loom behind the headlining is there another route to run a new loom?  Perhaps down a sill or the side of the tunnel. It would be a bit optimistic to hope pulling the old loom would drag a fresh one through...

David

Fuse box is a solid construction so some fine wire brushes in the minidrill thing I have along with some fine emery paper caused no problems. Wear goggles and a mask as bits of the brushes will fly off. I think a loom fed down by the tunnel or sill is the way to go I will terminate the dash loom on a block so I can add the new rear loom later if required. Looking at the indicator switch thing I'm tempted to bin it and replace the rear light clusters with some modern ones and have proper indicators and brake lights. Watch this space.
Clarkey

Hi all, bit more progress made today. I have managed to get a few wires terminated on the cleaned up fusebox.

Great progress !

First , second and third series Appias all being done at the same time - interesting to see the differences and similarities between them

I also managed to get the rusty spiral conduit to the front lights replaced with some natty tubing and glands. I first continued the wrapping of the looms and when the pipes were in (after removing the ends of the old spiral pipes and widening the hole a wee bit) I could feed the mini looms through. The gland  threads fit the hole in the back of the headlamp bowl so should be an easy job to get the headlamps wired in.

a few more pics

I like the conduits, where do you get them from??

Hi the conduits come from an Aladdins cave of goodies aka Vehicle Wiring Products Ltd    http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/sleeving/sleeving.php

Managed a bit more today but have ran out of cable , more is on the way. The next job is to mod the dashboard so the series 2 ignition switch will fit.
the fusebox is looking a bit better and under the dash we are getting some new cabling in.

Hi all
bit more progress today as the new wire came

had a play about with the horn as the button in the wheel didn't move and I couldn't get a circuit through to the fuse box and horns. I stripped all the cover off and dipped the button in some hot water and it popped out. A quick clean and a bit of grease on the little spring and it was clicking away merrily. so back on the car and guess what?  you already know the answer a disconnection between the horn push and the fusebox.

word of warning the plastic on the appia emblem is made of what I don't know but melts pdq when you spray carb cleaner on it. update on the horn when I was taking out some cables from the junction box the feed to the horn and the headlamp relay where bridged out, seems like the elves found the wire was broken when the world was a much younger place and bodged it so I guess when you flashed the lights the horn beeped. to get to the wire looks like the steering column will have to come out oh dear. might have to be a dash button for now.

Not familiar with Appias  but what was the original horn operation? my Fulvia Series 1 2c Berlina sounds the same with the 'horn' push button in the centre of the steering wheel being the headlamp flasher, while the horns are operated by a large chrome ring also on the steering wheel.
Dash button sounds good but I remember back in the days when I had Minis that my horns were wired up to a spring loaded switch on an extended arm which made it easier to reach.

Brian
8227 8)

Hi
seems the centre button is the horn , the diagrams I have show contacts springs ,brushes etc all to do with the horn no mention of flashing the lights. It is a steering wheel off job with a tube down the inside of the column carrying the cables for the light switch and horn?
Anyway got a bit more done today, light switch, wiper switch and ignition switch all in.

Interesting to see the wiring coming along. I have that to do still. If you want to change the steering wheel centre, I have a spare (new) hornpush.

Hi all
thanks Simon for the offer of the new wheel button, i will see what can be done with the old one first. Onto the wiring again , decided to abandon the loom going to the rear lights etc and put a new one through the car so I sawed the old one off under the dash (see pic) it is looking alot more modern under the dash now with just a few more switches to wire in and I can wrap the loom and tidy it all up. i am missing the flasher return switch under the bonnet so will just lay the cables in ready. Guess what? I've ran out of cable again and I still have a few long runs to do to the back of the car. Still toying with the idea of replacing the back lights with something more modern and a lot safer. I will put the extra cables in anyway so no probs if I decide to upgrade the rear lights. Any requests for the new wire colour? i will order it tonight or tomorrow. I estimate to have used nearly 50m of cable already.
Clarkey

I would be tempted to keep the original lights, make sure the reflectors and lenses are all clean so work to their maximum effect

I'll have to dig out photos but my B20 got rubberlite little round things in the back window to give high level brake lights and amber indicators.  To me both safer than original or replacement while keeping the outside of the car standard - or in my case to get the rear lights back to standard.

They were a bit like this - amber and red.

http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?sg=1&pgCode=010&sgName=Electrical&pgName=Lighting&agCode=0040&agName=Side+and+Flasher+Lamps&pCode=010.153

I also added little chrome rectangular lights under the bumper for reversing and rear fog.

http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?sg=1&pgCode=010&sgName=Electrical&pgName=Lighting&agCode=0062&agName=Reverse%2FRear+Fog+Lamps&pCode=010.452

http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?sg=1&pgCode=010&sgName=Electrical&pgName=Lighting&agCode=0062&agName=Reverse%2FRear+Fog+Lamps&pCode=010.451

...and a heated rear window, two speed wipers and electric washers with four jets and a big tank.  My first priority was wiring and with those mods I had in mind a late return journey in bad weather.  Going places is always great fun, its getting home again that can grind and being able to see and being confident of being seen (even at a B20's pace!!) takes a lot of the strain out of it. 

I had a pair of door mirrors as well, but that's a London thing with all our weird five lane wide one way junctions and roundabouts where stopping to have a really good look is more dangerous than keeping your foot down and going for the gap.

David

In reply to Simon I think the original lights just don't cut it in modern traffic. might be I can keep the wiring intact and refit the old lights for special occasions. Something on the lines of what David refers to will be where I would like to get to. The thought of someone running into the back of the old thing is not worth thinking about. Found another pic from today

Hi all.
got bogged down in the horns/steering wheel disaster zone but after 5hrs on and off me and the elves have managed to get the circuit down to the horns connected. First job was to test the horns no surprise when neither gave so much as a cheep so they were opened up and the contacts cleaned. see pics methinks they need painting they are a bit scruffy. problem is I have no mounting brackets so they will have to wait a bit longer

After a quick rebuild I wired up the horns to a battery and they worked just need a tune up. On to the horn button conundrum I decided to take the wheel off and check out the brass brush just behind the steering wheel. Got excited when I found the spring had rusted off about three turns at the bottom so a clean up and  all back together after a quick circuit test was positive but alas the horn button still did not complete the circuit. Check out the mystery part inside the steering column. The hole on the left in the column is where the spring and brush sit you can make out the iron oxide in there

So back to the horn push assembly i wire brushed all the steel components and sanded up the brass bits , still no joy so I turned the assembly upside down so the contact pin would sit on a different part of the brass ring on the steering wheel where the brush runs but on the otherside. At last that cured it and now when we press the horn push button a contact is made right through to the horns wiring.

the pick shows the bit of spring that had rusted off, the mystery object was out of the end of the gearstick (oops how did that get in there)

"I must dig out some photos of those Aurelia lights" - but easier still I saw the car at Brooklands on Saturday and took some more.  Jason and Louise are as glad of and as happy with them as I was.  You really have to know to look for them.  From memory the brackets are tucked inside the rear screen trim so completely reversible.

David

You really have to look for the lights IN THE BACK WINDOW.  The ones on the bumper mounts do stick out a bit UNLESS THE BUMPER IS FITTED which is a photo I will have to dig out...

For completeness here's the switch panel where the radio would go with an ammeter and water temp.  I think the four pull switches do reverse, rear fog, rear screen and the cooling fan over-ride.  Would the lights originally be where the fire extinguisher button now sits?  I can't think what would have gone where that toggle now does the lights - dash light dimmer?  The battery cut out is on a little black panel under the dash I think to the right of the wheel.  The stalk bottom right I think is an extra indicator switch they can reach with a harness on which wasn't an issue for me with legs a foot shorter.  Wipe and wash might be an extra panel below the dash as well.

NEXT time I'll take a few more photos.

David

Looks good! I think I will lay some extra wires in the loom to the back of the car in case I go down this route. Thanks David. Meanwhile back at the ranch I have recruited my youngest son to help out he is opening out the ignition switch hole so we can put the series 2 one in. I managed to tidy up the wiring by wrapping the looms with PVC stretchy tape.
Clarkey & Son

Gave the horns a quick tidy up and next I will make a couple of brackets and get them in and wired up. The wiring is starting to look like a proper loom a few more wires and a tidy up of the fuse box and I can connect the battery and have a test. Not sure what to do about the interior light it will be a lot of work to take out the headlining Hmm... dashboard interior lights at each end? comments welcome

If he uses that sort of thing a lot this would be a treat:

http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Health___Safety/Respirators/respirators.html

I have the older version of the JSP with a battery pack on the belt which I preferred then (a decade ago) to the then Trend offering.  If buying again I'd want to try both before committing.  A decorator friend tried mine and bought one as did a farmer.  Lovely and cool in summer.  The one limitation (other than the price...) is needing ear plugs instead of headphones if doing something really noisy as well as dusty.  Has gone out on loan to friends floor sanding etc.

David

He wears a face mask when we do sanding etc and goggles and a boiler suit

Thoughts on the loom past the dashboard to the back centre on a plug and socket so I can fit the loom after any welding/bodywork

http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/connectors/multiconnectors.php

As to the idea itself it sounds very sensible indeed.  The downside is a bit more work and the risk of another failure point but I'd do the same.  Way back when it was John Savage who did my wiring and I think he used multicore to the rear.

http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/cable/multicorecable.php

David

Hi Clarkey

As suggested on the StratosEC site to another member in ref to your comment- "I managed to tidy up the wiring by wrapping the looms with PVC stretchy tape."

He suggested

"Do not use normal insulation tape, use loom tape. The Insulation tape eventually becomes a sticky mess."

I too have used insulation tape, but plan to replace with loom tape. Just waiting for some to arrive from Ebay seller.

If what you have used is loom tape, then all well and good. I guess that insulation tape does not like extremes of temp too much.

Peter

Hi
I have used the loom tape and sealed the ends with self amalgamating tape. Got the ignition switch in and sanded down and sprayed the dashboard today.

The Team

Hi

Thanks for the tip on the amalgamating tape, will look to use that as well.

Peter

More progress today on the horns and dash. Had to fabricate a couple of brackets to fit the horns. I also have tried some of this liquid metal glue stuff on the back of the speedo.

The dash is a lot tidier so I might give the screen surround a blast as it is out of the car . I was looking for the cable that feeds the interior light but I now know it does not go up past the windscreen. the speedo retaining lugs had broken on the top so i've glued a couple of washers on with some liquid metal stuff I'll let it set overnight and see if it is any good.

As I am adding some extra warning lights I have put an additional earth block under the dash saves using those crimp on tap things. The horns are in I discovered out of all my 20 odd HSS drill only 2 were sharp enough to drill mild steel! any one used a decent drill sharpener ?

So yet more cable has been ordered along with some cheapo rear light clusters so I can get all the wiring tested. While I wait for that to come I might whip the fuel tank out and check the fuel gauge sender  it looks a bit crusty in there. Good news bad news? the fuel tank smells as though it has had paint thinners poured in to it oh joy.
Clarkey

Hi all, had a play about with the dash today. the liquid metal stuff was a flop perhaps I mixed it wrongly? it had gone off but was no where near hardened so to plan B. When I got the car the speedo was stuck in with dried out blue tack so I rummaged in the spare parts bin and found what looks like a seal from lamp cluster off god knows what. A quick trim with the tin snips and it fitted just right round the speedo and when I tightened up the clamps on the back it looks like it just grew there well chuffed.

Fitted a wee 70p panel for full beam and sidelights on warning lights, when the dash is in the car I might put some indicator warning lights in. As the new cable came today I got on with the loom to the back of the car, looking at the wiring diagram I think I can dispense with the combined ind/brake light so I ran in a extra set of wires for the indicators having 100m of the stuff to play with. The length of wrapping took about 45 minutes so not too bad. I will run the loom down the side of the dash and along the sills under the mat/carpet. bit more planning to get the loom into the boot god knows where Lancia ran it. Last shot is the cheapo rear light I also got some front indicator/sidelights so I can test all the wiring till I get some new lights I will put up a pic of what is left of one of the rear lights tomorrow.

One point that has come about with the rewire is I am constantly underestimating the lengths of cable required or the elves are snipping about 3ft off every bit I lay in when I'm not looking. I would advise anyone considering this to probably remove the loom completely as far is possible and if you are replacing it as it came out just match up your cable lengths. Another thing is the time it is taking the Lancia loom is damn well kept in place by some substantial steel cleats so needs to be winkled out. Still with a bit of luck we might have the testing start next week hopefully as I'm off to Italy next weekend. These period pull out switches were taken off the dash might bung em on Ebay
Clarkey

hi all
Got round to extending the loom to the back of the car and fitting a connection block so I can separate the loom and get it out of harms way when I start on the bodywork.

Into the boot area at last and getting the new wiring into the rear light positions and finally a light unit wired in but not fastened to the car unless you count the bluetack that is holding it on. Dashboard next!!!!

Putting the dash back in was quite straightforward after i had tried to make sure I had checked all the relevant cables were going to the right places and my mods to the wiring were in place. I checked the bulbs in the dash and one was out and the other 2 blackened so i will get new ones first before the speedo goes in. Looking at the final pic today makes me realise why we do this sort of stuff can't wait to be able to turn the key and here some whirry noises from the engine compartment. Still plenty to do before then but on the home straight now

I'm so pleased you went into the dash and beyond rather than being tempted to "call a halt" at the engine bay.  Its peace of mind, you now know every wire, and I expect also a huge sense of achievement to carry into the next phase.  How many days?  It seems to have got done in pretty short order.

David

I take my hat off to you for a total rewire, I'm in the middle of one myself but I do have to say that I pity you or the next owner when the time comes to start tracing electrical faults. Unless I'm missing something colour coding is preferable to a single colour throughout no matter how straight forward the loom is.

Just my tuppence worth!

Guy

Hopefully that's a long way off - and most stuff is fairly obvious and if not just a multimeter and a long fly lead.

What's hard is when there's the old and the repair and the accessory and the mystery all muddled in together - and this is CLEAN.

First job I got done was a rewire - a HEAP came out - and once John Savage had put in a new loom it wasn't touched again in my ownership and as far as I know since.

I expect if it was me I'd start with a heap of colours under the bonnet and some multicore down the sill and then run out of something and think "if I make a note of where it doesn't match up it will be ok" and of course then someone would wonder why the wire starts green one end and comes out purple the other  ;D

David

So just like French house wiring then!

When did Lancia switch to multicolour wiring?

The original loom was all labelled with nice aluminium tags with the cable number referring to wiring diagram. I used these when they were legible , most of the underbonnet ones were unreadable but if you were lucky the tag at the other end would be OK. Any new stuff I have numbered up and marked on a working copy of the wiring diagram from the owners handbook. Guess to do the job right I will need to draw up a revised diagram to keep with the car.

some pics from todays efforts not sure this engine and gearbox will go in together, need a pit and five strong men. pleased with the new side/indicators, dashboard is getting there some new bulbs tomorrow and I'll finish it off

Have you a close up of the tags you used?  Happy with them?

David

Hi David
if you check out some of the earlier pics you can see the new tags I have used they are yellow with black numbers

boo test to see if I can upload pictures

previously re-working of wiring diagram
angle of dangle to get engine and box in?? any advice???
some lucky sod driving past my hotel in Lucca last weekend

some more lucky so and so's larging it around the top of the city walls at Lucca

We went to Lucca last week. First up was a convoy of Porsche 956 thingymebobs about a dozen of them just tootling through a piazza, then in the main square were about 30 Fiat 500s (they are really tiny closeup) . On the other side of the square some big noisy modern ferraris were revving up and taking off through the city so I ran back to the hotel (unsuccessfully ! getting lost) to get a camera then ran back getting lost again until I found Sarah still sipping a cool glass of prosecco and watching the fun. Now armed with a map we got back to the hotel and I got a couple of cameras and went back out to watch the fun. highlight being 3 Bugattis in V formation whizzing down the walls.

front light

Sorry for the delay, but I think you asked somewhere about angle for refitting the engine. A couple of pictures of how mine came out. Still needed a bit of gentle rocking, but no significant catching ....

Hi all
what to do on a wet Saturday afternoon?
read on

I first drained the sump as the oil likes to leak out when the engine is at such a steep angle. Using God's gift to the man on his own the engine crane I was relieved to be able to get the tail of the gearbox over the front and into the engine compartment. From there it was gently jack up the back of the gearbox and roll the car or push the crane and with a bit of judicious levering it was in. Main snag is a cable bracket on the D/S inner wing which catches on the accelerator pump body on the carb, also the air cleaner had to come off as the engine went further into the bulkhead.

unfortunately in all the confusion I did not get the prop and gearbox lined up so I will have to drop the propshaft to get the couplings fastened up. Then it is a reconnect everything and get my nice newly reconned radiator in, test all the wiring, and finally try that engine out.
My wife Sarah was most amazed the engine and box went in there seems to be no where near enough room but I had seen a pic in a Lancia manual of the engine and box coming out together so I knew it was possible. apologise for the quality of some of the pics they were taken with a phone camera. the last set of pics are better taken with a proper camera.

scratches on the bulkhead are where the stud at the back of the filler cap neck was catching. need to get some new bolts for the engine and gearbox mounts as I mangled the gearbox one replacing the gearbox mount and the engine ones were missing
Clarkey

Well done, its like getting a new born baby back into the womb!!!


P

I'm not sure where but I did point out once before that I'd worked for Vauxhall Motors at Luton for 24 years, and back in the 1960's when we put power units into the engine bay we had  a piece of equipment that fitted tempoarily into the propshaft aperture in the gearbox, this had a pair of hefty roller bearings attached and the whole assembly was rolled into place before lifting up from underneath to connect everything up.
Gradually after that all the running gear came along a conveyor in the correct places and the complete trimmed body came down from the trim shop above and was dropped straight onto the running gear and connected up.

Brian
8227 8)

bit more done today, gearbox and engine bolted up had to drop the propshaft it looks awfully long to go back in!!!
Clarkey

had a little tinker with the gear linkage and after a lot of fiddling about got the bolt in and could select some gears. The change was mega stiff and only 3 and 4 would select. it was the link thing binding on the distributor dagnabbit! So a) assembled wrongly or b) needing adjustment
took the link off and it seemed wrong so I thought I would slacken off the lock nut and adjust the length a bit. Hmmm... I adjusted the length OK it is just a bit too permanent is all see pic
Now we can either weld a nut onto the end of the thread sticking out (and remove the broken part)of the thicker bit and screw the other bit back in or find a new one.

I was trying to get the propshaft back on the other night and came across another problem. The end of the gearbox on a series 1 is alot smaller than the later ones so you have to change one of the spider things on the propshaft
Clarkey

Mystery solved? seems the drivers side engine mount spring has snapped allowing the engine to drop about 2" on that side hence the gear linkage fouling... now if only I had known that before I "adjusted" that link
Clarkey

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Brian
8227 8)

Changed the mounting still seems the same will have to see what effect replacing the broken link has

think I have spotted where I went wrong with the gear linkage. an earlier pic in this saga shows the new set up I took a picture of the original setup (for reference porpoises) but comparing it with the later one it is different see below

I remember now I did this bit blindfold with only my left hand.... that's my excuse. I am quite chuffed about this as I was concerned some major misalignment was at work and the prospect of 3rd and 4th plus reverse not good.
have to mark some exam papers tomorrow so might be the weekend till I can swap the surviving link around. I have a nasty feeling I have snapped the one that should go where the unbroken one is. might be time for a bit of bending of a rod or something.
Clarkey

Hopefully it will be sorted now .....

Ha d a bit of luck , left those broken link bits on the kitchen table, came back fixed!

Elf work!

Looks Elfy enough to me  ;)

In between marking A level papers and fixing defunct laptops I managed to get a quick session under the hood of our favourite Lancia. I have reassembled the gear linkage as per the earliest photo ignoring my parts book. It was a lot easier with the engine out but it is all back together and feels a lot better. With the links as they are now they do not foul on the distributor and I can get most of the gears, it sticks in 3rd? and has to be manually released from under the bonnet but as the clutch is not connected up yet I'm hoping it will be OK I think I have a spring missing from somewhere on the linkage that might explain it.
Clarkey

made some more progress today as the clutch and throttle are connected again after 40+ years. had a few issues with the throttle cable  a the old one one had a much larger eyelet so had to drill the new one out

Clutch is back on now but awful amount of free play will have a look tomorrow

Managed to get a bit of slack from the clutch linkage , the main problem is the silent block sleeve in the clutch pedal joint thingymebob had perished giving a fair amount of slogger. fitted a nylon bush as a temp measure and adjusted the push rod up and the pedal felt a bit better. issue I have is is it doing anything with the clutch? the whole engine and gearbox are moving when I give the clutch pedal a good shove hmmm.... Not used to a coil clutch plate everything seems to be in reverse. Anyway I got under the car and by pulling on the pedal I could see the clutch bearing sleeve moving so at least it is all connected properly. Looking in my parts book i see the clutch cover has sleeves with the springs, now if these sleeves slide in the cover I think that might be the issue as they have not moved for 40+ years any one got any ideas on this?
so I gave up on that one and moved on to the radiator tap casting thing. The two bolts holding the tap on sheared one also losing its head when I tried to get it out. So back to welding a nut on like the gearlink thing at least the tap is working. I gave up after that and went home and had a lie down..

during todays woodworking fest I stumbled across a dismantled clutch cover . this confirmed my concerns about mine being seized might try a touch of heat with a blow lamp through the wee hatch on the bottom of the gearbox. might be a lot of swearing if this doesn't work
Clarkey

I wondering which has been "easier" - Simon buying another Appia to get an idea what its supposed to look like or you taking on all the spares...

David

David
you aint seen nothing yet! there is another 2 wagon loads at least
Clarkey

Bit more done today. All those threats of 3 foot long jets of flame up the hatch on the gearbox seems to have convinced the clutch cover to ease of a bit and today I could discern a slight movement on the sleeves in the cover when I yanked the clutch pedal,So the blowlamp was put away and I managed to take up a bit more of the slack in the linkage and put a drop of oil on the ends of the sleeves as the poke through the cover. Lots of jumping up and down on the now much firmer clutch pedal seems to have got some movement in the clutch I will still need Matron Clarke to assist for a final check and then I can get the propshaft back on as the car is up on blocks and the trolley jack at the moment. Gear linkage still giving some grief as it was fouling the throttle rod, I also took the gear lever out and retightened the c nut with an oil filter wrench seems better can now get it out of 3rd with some effort. It will be drills and stud remover stuff next ( I always snap them) so I can rebuild the radiator tap pipe thing and get the rad back in the car.
Clarkey

Propshaft back in, the rear doughnut looks past it, will leave for now. have a stack of marking to do and need it done before Thursday as I am off to the traction engine rally at Pickering not a steam buff but there is always lots of lovely junk!

More news on the clutch, with the assistance of matron Clarke I could see that the clutch is moving about .25/.3 of an inch which could be enough to release it I will have to check with the car in gear and the back wheels off the ground. More bits back in today my re-tubed radiator at last!

Not much room under the bonnet now, if I'm not careful I might have to try and start the beast soon! still some issues with the throttle and some pipes and wires to connect up. very tight between the fan and the rad are the later cars a bit more spacious under the bonnet?
Clarkey

Bit more done. Bravely I connected the dynamo and starter up and then slipped the battery lead on in the boot. Good news is no smoke or flames or fuses popping (yet) I jury rigged the front lamps up and I now have working sidelights and headlamps with an operating headlamp flasher (the relay makes a real clack sound ) The horns work when I press the centre button (need adjusting) but no joy with the indicators. I dismantled the switch thing with the toggle, replaced the bulb and cleaned the contacts. Under the bonnet the cancelling switch had suffered some battle damage in the past so I just twisted all the wires together. I will have another play today. Just need the radiator hoses connecting, the fuel line and a exhaust fill all the fluids up and turn and push that key. it all sounds so easy it took me well over an hour to just get that wee oil pipe back on. Had a play about with the throttle linkage and had to use the original link from the series 1 carb as the later one meant when you changed gear the engine would rev up .. nice.. the old one is about an inch longer but pushes the long connecting rod out of the way of the gear linkage.
Clarkey

Getting close !

Who redid the radiator and are you happy with the work ?

Local firm did the radiator they have been on the go here for years so gave them a chance it looks ok time will tell. Better news on the indicators I stripped the flasher switch down and found one of the magnet plates had seperated from the bakelite block so a bit of superglue and a bit of a lube on the springs and it went back together. As it was open I could get an inkling as to what it does on the car and I worked out that I needed a link putting in to send 12volts to the flasher unit. Tick tock tick tock... soon had it back in the dash a quick rewire of the brake lights to make them independent of the flasher switch job done. Only prob is the coil is always trying to lock the switch up so I need to get the underbonnet part replaced as well but it works.

The coil magnetises a side when you flick the toggle switch that way locking the indicators on, the device under the bonnet switches the current to the coil I guess as cams on the steering column strike the switch ( mine is too damaged to tell what it did so I am guessing) when the steering is in the straight ahead position the current is switched off the magnet de energises and the toggle switch returns to the central position.Just for good measure there is a flashing bulb inside, the system uses a normal flasher can I tested it with one from a Fulvia but my original one works OK as well,

After I had worked out the need for a feed to the + contact of the flasher can it was easy to see why it  was being shy yesterday.

Put the speedo back in but no panel lights, fuel gauge, or dynamo light so back to the drawing board tomorrow, the wipers worked but made a horrible racket then stopped...
Clarkey

Good news on the fuel gauge it gives fsd with 12v across it so it is working. stripped the sender down it is fritzed and needs the resistor rewiring might just set the gauge up to register full for now.

The indicator flasher is quite a thing...  I'd assumed it was a simple switch you cancel yourself.

David

Update
re wired the sender unit and gave it a quick test seems OK and the warning light works.
Clarkey

The switch thing is ingenious but way over engineered, it will be cool to see the switch reset it self as you drive along.

Any one know why there are 3 wires from the fuel tank sender to the gauge??? I just stuck them together as the other one I had marked up as the warning light lead. the series 2 only has 2 wires from the sender hmm... Anyway got the speedo back in with a working fuel gauge and low fuel light and also the dynamo light. I also found a gloworm masquerading as a dashboard light I assume I have put a too low wattage bulb in as at first I was convinced it was not working.

Hi all
has anyone had a go at repairing the manual washer pump? mine is seized but ones on ebay go for £20 plus and are not the same any ideas
Clarkey
had visions of grinding off the cap to get inside but this will probably destroy it

Hi all
need some gearbox oil any recommendations ?
off down to the unit to destroy/repair a washer pump. found one on ebay fits a Hillman Blimp will do for now with a bit of pipework rejigging

check this out
http://www.formulavintage.it/shop/volante-per-appia-prima-serie/
looks brand new

bit more done. fuel line connected, nearly there....
Had a look at the N/S brakes  as they have leaked fluid since put back on the car. The good news is it is not the wheel cylinder seals leaking but the banjos on the back plate. So I whipped the drum and backplate off and got half a turn on the banjos so that should cure the leak. More good news was no fluid had got inside the drum and destroyed my new linings Phew!!! Will get it all back tomorrow and put some new grease and seal in the hub. I will then do the other side.

Also had a quick look at the number plate lights they are a bit knackered will look into getting them rechromed and fitting a lbulb holder inside. have left the washer pump to soak as it looks like it has limescale in it.

Have you uprated the front brakes ? I thought that twin leading shoes were a late 3rd series thing. Chugga also commented on the problems with these brakes leaking

I had spotted the "new" steering wheels. He seems to be keeping shtum on the price though. The Aurelia ones which are very similar (made in France) are well over a thousand euros and I suspect these will be too !

Others, here on the forum, have done very good repairs for significantly less .......

Gearbox oil - I suspect a good EP 90 is the probable answer

Looking good !

Someone in the dim and distant past had uprated the brakes, my youngest son rebuilt the other side and had no leaks guess he was a bit more brutal with those banjos! That wheel looks nice but the rest of the interior is 61 years young so it would look odd.

checked the banjos and they have leaked more than before!!!!! got another 1/4 turn on them will see what they are like tomorrow. might be a remove clean and retighten. Chugga was right.
Clarkey

You might want to anneal the copper sealing washers.....Sorry if teaching to suck eggs...

Thanks for the tip will see what the leak situation is today. I am on with some more shelving for the consortium spares today so might be next week before I can get the wheel off and have a look
Clarkey

I'm sorry to say this but if you tighten the banjo bolts too much the banjo unions deform and they will never seal. copper washers should be annealed and nipped up just tight, then about 1/4 of a turn no more!!! also the rear of the alloy cylinders pit with corrosion, I had mine skimmed to give a flat surface again to seal properly ., if it were me I would look through your spares for replacement link pipes , check the cylinders are not pitted , anneal  the washers and hopefully job done , I made your mistakes when building my s3 10 yrs ago AND NEVER FORGOT IT !!! S3 brakes are a ROYAL pain in the backside but when sorted work well , good luck , persevere and it'll all come good in the end  ;) j

Had a quick look today and no fluid on the inside of the wheel, so
a) leak fixed....or
b) there is no fluid left in the system to leak out... Hmm...
Clarkey
off to watch Inspector Montalbano he is a scamp isn't he..

I hope I don't have the same problems with mine !
All on the back burner at the moment because I have the Ercole brakes in bits - all very much simpler, but worse parts availability ....

had a quick look today still leaking, will have a look next week after my next project to make a solid bench and source a nice big vice to go on it..

update on the brakes...both sides leaking now dagnabbit!

change the washers and banjo pipes, check for pitting on backs of cylinders , anneal washers and nip up, took me a 2n'd go on the 1st appia I did , this way worked and I've stuck to it since with minimal problems , unfortunately the banjo pipes look tougher than they are and the crush easily  :( , persevere with it, you will get there in the end

Thanks for the tips, will give it a go asap.
Clarkey
ps did you find a source for the new banjos and pipes?

not new just picked some good s/h ones, surely there should be some there?? re use a good set of original copper washers, seem softer and thinner than replacement / modern ones

hi
when I get round to it there is a couple of orphan backplates loitering around that I will have a go at recycling...I wondered about reusing old copper washers, like you say new ones are alot thicker...
Clarkey

Hi all
been a bit frantic last couple of weeks what with leaks, plumbers, insurance underwriters, dehumidifiers, servicing the Stilo and last week matron collided the Beetle into the back of a Renault. Anyway got under a Lancia today and started on those leaky front brakes. Soon had the backplate off and on the bench. As a rule I never throw anything away so a rummage in a glass jar turned up some of the original copper washers for the banjos they are a lot smaller and thinner than the ones I fitted see pic. so a quick rub down with 800 wet and dry and then off to the back kitchen to anneal the washers whilst matron is at work. If time allows tomorrow will try and get the backplate back on (again!!) and connected up.
Clarkey

And in the darkness bind them.... sorry couldn't resist
Clarkey

Finally got to putting the backplate back together and on the car... I tightened the banjos up with a spanner as far as they would go and then using a torque wrench set to 20lbs feet nipped them up. I will check this arrangement later this week as I am busy painting sledges at the moment.
Clarkey

The elves have finished the sledges so on with the brakes...... oh dear the little plunger thing won't stay up so no pressure on the system. A quick strip down revealed some bad pitting in the bore of the central reservoir thing but it was working last year... hmm... what to do? a new one is around 300 euros I think... Don said he has used a modelling filler in the bore of a master cylinder quite successfully.. or can I get the old one resleeved... I will try the resleeve route first if anyone has had this done be most grateful for any info
Clarkey 

Looks good.  What are the runners? 

Any more info on the modelling filler or its application and finish?

Hi David
the runners on the sledges are from uPVC window frames. have tried a couple of local engineering firms but they are a bit too large scale to take on resleeving the brake cylinder will try one more tomorrow. the stuff Don used is White Milliput ( a modelling epoxy) . might be a last resort.
Clarkey

Google gave me these three - but not the one I had half a memory of...  I thought this had been a discussion point on the forum but was unable to find the thread.  I can't right now but will try and search in my email archive for "the recommendation" I'd had.

http://www.classiccar-brakes.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.pastparts.co.uk/reman.htm

http://www.classic-spares.co.uk/

I have not used White Milliput in a brake system, but can confirm that it is superb for repairing a petrol tank. Clean everything up, apply, let it cure then smother with underseal. It will romp through an MOT !!!!!!

Needless to say, it was on recommendation from Don !!!

Good luck with whatever route you choose. Of course, I (and I am sure many others) would like you to try the Milliput, so that its efficacy in a brake system may be proved, or otherwise!!!!

                                  Andy

Hi Andy
the word on the Milliput is it has lasted 20 years in Don's series 1 master cylinder with no problems!! it must be good stuff... Thanks for those links David the guys in Norfolk look useful might give them a try
Clarkey

I've used white Milliput in modelling. Get the mix right (easy enough by rolling balls of the same size) and it dries absolutely rock hard, so I can believe it's capacity for fixing tank leaks etc. Never known it to crack or shrink. I think it's advertised as being able to be tapped etc. Even if the mix is slightly wrong it will still harden but just take longer.

just a snippet while sorting all those spare parts out had cause to move the Appia around and looks like no leaks from the dreaded banjos..hmm...time will tell..just need to sort out the fluid reservoir now and then do the other side..
Clarkey

Braved the cold, penguins and polar bears to get the oil tank thingy back on, looking good.... my endurance with longjohns, overalls ,scarf and woolly hat is about 2 hrs then I have to scarper off home to thaw out. seems the cup at the bottom of the plunger was stopping the triangular valve from doing it's stuff so a bit of adjustment and it is all back together, will check it tomorrow to see if it has maintained the pressure.still a mystery why it stopped working ..be me being cack handed
Clarkey

some pics

more pics.. pressure in oil tank OK so bled that side now stripping down drivers side

Drivers side back on and bled...still got pressure and the plunger up on oil tank..risked a push of the brake pedal seems to be some resistance and sounds of brake shoes moving? have them slackened right off so the travel is understandable.. will check tomorrow for leaks
Clarkey

Fingers crossed !

No leaks that I can see... will get my youngest son over tomorrow to do some further testing

still no leaks that I can see... the plunger has dropped a bit further, is this normal?
Clarkey

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LANCIA-APPIA-CATALOGO-PARTI-DI-RICAMBIO-BOOK-/301373130312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item462b3d0648

Any use (if expensive?)

Guy

They've got quite a bit of Lancia interest:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=elissemay&hash=item462b3d0648&item=301373130312&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR7.TRC2.A0.H0.Xlancia.TRS0&_nkw=lancia&ghostText=&_sacat=0

That's how I spotted the Appia parts book, someone who obviously doesn't what an Aurelia is!

Guy

I have one already as well as the CD version

anyone had any thoughts on the plunger on the brake oil tank staying up/down? will bleed the back brakes tomorrow and see what happens
Clarkey

My understanding is that if everything is in 100% order in the braking system, the plunger should stay up and slowly drop as the linings wear. And if it does drop much whist standing, then this would indicate a fluid leak.
However, if the seal and cylinder in the brake reservoir are worn then the piston will very slowly drop as fluid passes the seal. And if there is a fluid leak, you will see fluid on the floor under the car roughly where the leak is. So don't necessarily think that plunger drop = fluid leak. Check the level first.
Hope this helps.
Chriswgawne@hotmail

With the plungers, I am not overly bothered if it drops 1/2" over a month or so, probably a slight seal leak in the reservoir - the brakes still work even if the plunger is fully down, you just have to press harder ! It doesn't necessarily mean that there is a fluid leak.

Chris is spot on, look for drips on the floor and check the level.

thanks guys will have a look today, can't see any leaks..will get the back wheels off and set to with the bleeding then we will see how long the plunger stays up
Clarkey

Hi
any tips on gearbox oil? brand and quantity, the car has a series 2 gearbox
Clarkey

Castrol ST90 is formulated for Lancia Gearboxes back Aprilia and still relevant for Delta.....

Thanks for the oil tip...bled the back brakes some nasty black wee came out on one side the other side came out clear...going down today on the leg iron so will check for leaks and if the plunger has dropped..
Clarkey

Hi all
slight leak where the flexible pipe joins the wheel cylinder so I will whip it off and anneal the washer. bit tied up at the mo as my Mum is in hospital recovering from a stroke but she is on the mend..
Clarkey

Tim,
I thought synthetic or semi synthetic made Fulvia gearboxes easier to use, if so what is recommended?

Brian
8227 8)

Correct for Fulvia but others as said Aprilia to Delta is a non EP 90 and ST 90 says for Lancia on the tin

Pic

some better news on the brakes..did a quick washer change on the flexihose, quick bleed, nipped it all up and so far no leaks and the plunger is still about 30mm up ...not used in anger so still holding my breath...
Clarkey

That's brilliant! I have a 50s ST90 can that I use to keep my gear oil in - but I never realised (until now!) that it was the correct one to keep in the car!

Thanks...

just shows what a bit of Spring weather.... anyway the gearbox is full, the engine oil is replenished along with a new filter. a short length of exhaust pipe from the manifold is now in place to take some of the smoke/steam/flames away from under the bonnet when the beast wakes from it's 40+ year sleep. A problem with the long bolt holding the bottom hose assembly means the radiator will have to come out so that will be tomorrows job. I had a chat with a local company that fabricates fibre glass things as to see if it would be possible to make some quality front wings in fibre glass for the series 1 cars. He was a bit evasive but the outcome was a large amount of cash for the moulds followed by still quite large amounts of cash for each wing. My thinking was they would last forever once fitted never mind.
Clarkey

Radiator is out...decided to play with the electrics and now the indicator thing is not working it will not lock in position....will get the multimeter on it tomorrow. fanbelt was very slack so nipped that up a bit...noticed there was no thermostat in the top hose outlet hmmm....will leave that for now!not much to do before we try a start up watch this space.
Clarkey

Re wings, there is a new aluminium rear wing for sale on eBay at the moment for 500 euros, so that gives a guide/sanity-check price for remaking them ........ I think !

What is the problem with the rad bolt ? On mine it looks like it is made of stainless , so that was OK but I did have to make a new gasket for the "Christmas Tree" to stop the leaks

Hi
I had put the wrong gasket in a fibre one from my gasket set, so it did not nip up and just rotated and then the gasket fell down. the proper one I think is a rubber O ring. I found a suitable one and it has tightened up OK will get it back in today after I have had a go at the indicators.
Clarkey

Hi all
Indicators fixed! we now have cancelling indicators..seems one of the elves had been playing with a screwdriver...rad back in...plugs out..drop of oil down the bores...watch this space
Clarkey

more fun today the little beast is spinning over on the key with the dash gauge showing some oil pressure...gauge went to about half wayish... have to go to see my mum tomorrow and Thursday so watch this space.
Clarkey

Looking forward to "D-Day"

Got a spark ? Got petrol ? Should run !

Good luck!! After all the effort you have put in you deserve to get an instant result!!

                                                 Andy

Hi all
Well it's got water in and a bit of petrol to test the tank for leaks and I did detect a change in the cranking over so I think it has fired a few kicks so we will charge the battery up and stick half a gallon of fresh petrol in and see what happens. Most of the water has ran out over my feet from the stop cock thing and as expected the waterpump seal. Still encouraging signs, we have oil pressure, a spark, not sure yet about fuel pressure will know better when the pump has something to draw I just chucked an oilcan lids worth into the carb and cranked it over.
Clarkey

Hi all
spent a couple of hours today but no result...looks like the fuel pump is not playing ball, we have petrol at the tank side of the pump but nothing is getting up to the carb. I can blow quite easily down the pipe back to the tank so that is clear. I put a new diaphragm in the pump so will check that on Tuesday now, as I have to go to see my old Mum who is not very well. The water leaks seem to have slowed a bit and no new ones have appeared of any liquid so far so good.The starter motor seems a bit feeble I remember the one on my Flavia coupe was powerful enough to drive the car about with the plugs out and in 1st or reverse I don't think this one would take kindly to that. My fevered mind came up with the idea of a gravity feed to the carb just to see if the engine will start I must learn to be patient!!! I had a near escape with an old Vauxhall Victor when I was cleaning some engine parts, next thing someones dog was making a woofing sound and my boots were on fire. I told my Dad  "I think I've set the garage on fire Dad!" he was very calm I thought he would go ballistic as the garage was attached to the house but no he just peaked round the door into the garage from the utility room and said " I think we had better call the Fire Brigade" Dads don't you love em. The neighbours enjoyed the fun anyway.
any theories, tricks, new swear words, or advice please feel free as I don't fancy taking that pump off..
Clarkey

I must admit that I usually pour in a cap full of petrol directly into the carb (easy on downdrafts) in order to bypass any pump issues/questions. Not set fire to the garage yet , but it saves turning the engine over for ages and it tells me if the engine is likely to start. Having said that, I also start new engines without water in .... get them running for 5 secs or so and then fill up with water.

The new replacement pumps that I sourced for the Consortium work well, look very good and are not expensive. I have been using one on mine and indeed I haven't been using the electric pump.

Keep at it !

Fuel pump sorted..the pushrod from the camshaft? was gummed up and stuck in the out position and the spring inside the pump was not strong enough to push it back in.. a quick clean with a fine sandpaper, bit of oil and back in.. we now have petrol at the carb and squirting out of the accelerator jet..will check the sparks tomorrow with a fully charged battery.
Clarkey

I cannot wait ..... fingers crossed!!

Hi all
anti-climax here .. just a few subdued pops and an exhaust fume aroma.. I'm thinking the poor old thing has not got enough compression to suck any petrol air mixture in never mind squeeze it and make it go bang.. will sleep on it and have another play tomorrow.
Clarkey

Check ignition timing/ plug lead order....generally the lowest compresion engines run if timed correctly....

Hi
I checked the leads yesterday no probs there, next thing is the timing and possibly if I can find it a compression test. There seems to be no suck at all ..I'm wondering if a couple of valves are stuck open or burnt out. Even after a lot of cranking with the cold start device on the spark plugs are bone dry. I will pop the exhaust valve cover off and see what is going on and check the timing. I have a copy of the repair manual and it gives instructions on checking the timing.
Clarkey

Check to see if the exhaust is blocked?

Peter

A compression tester isn't expensive:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=compression%20tester&sprefix=compression+te%2Caps

Ahh you didnt me low compression, just NO compression (on all 4 cylinders would be odd/ totally knackered engine?)

I seem to remember the plugs that came out being OK normal colour etc so I'm assuming it was running when taken out of the previous car back in the late 70's. I observed the valves on inlet and exhaust moving OK and I checked the timing but had great probs spotting the O on the flywheel tooth... not convinced it was right but with it on the mark no 4 valves were both shut and the rotor arm was pointing at no4 spark plug lead. I need to make a lead so I can crank the engine from under the bonnet so I can see what is going on. I think if the engine was totalled it would blow oil and stuff back into the crankcase . Off to do a bit of paying work now will try and have another look later and I need to buy a compression tester with a long pipe.
Clarkey
ps thanks to you all for the tips and advice

I mentioned to Jason Kennedy I was thinking of having a starter button under the bonnet of my Fiat instead of a hot wire, and he showed me the one he'd installed, permanently, on his.

Perhaps the half way house is a harness with an inline switch and a bracket that can be "installed" and "later" removed but is safe and secure enough for prolonged faff and testing. 

If impatient to test suck and blow can you reach a plug hole with a thumb?

David

Hi David
nope is the answer.. have to do some more paying work tonight and tomorrow so I will get a compression tester first then have another go, my son might be over at the weekend so I will have an assistant.
Clarkey

Rather than using very long finger to reach the plug hole for TDC, this is an inexpensive alternative:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Innovative-Products-America-IPA7894-Compression/dp/B000TQ16HG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429857270&sr=8-1&keywords=TDC+whistle

Andrea

That looks like a must have...was thinking about the no suck problem and it occurred to me that the carb had been fastened on with a lot of green goo so it looks like there was a sealing problem in this area on the manifold so I might take the carb off (again!) and try and level off the manifold..any thoughts on this?
Clarkey

Are you sure that you have petrol going to the cylindres ? Worth a squirt of easy start to see if she will fire ?
Good luck

Mind reader... tried some Bradex stuff down the carb .. still didn't start... Matron thought it was trying as the cranking speed increased and you can hear the exhaust (just a pipe from the manifold no silencer) popping a bit, it feels like it is on one cylinder ... thing is the plugs are bone dry even after all that cranking I would expect them to be soaked in petrol. I rejetted the carb and swapped out the choke tube to the right size but I can't figure out what the cold start device is for as it ain't getting any extra petrol in there. I have tried squirting neat petrol into the carb but it all drains out the bottom of the inlet manifold hmm... I fear for the starter motor. will sleep on it and have a look tomorrow.
Clarkey

Hi

Sorry, no idea on the configuration of the carb/inlet manifold on the Appia so this may be a nonsense comment, but 'leaking out the bottom of the inlet manifold' sounds a pretty fundamental problem with bad gasket?

Peter

Hi
seems part of the manifold design is a drain for excess petrol, it is a roughly 2mm internal diameter pipe that sticks out of the bottom of the manifold
Clarkey

If it won't 'run' on Bradex then I don't think there can be any compression.

For a couple of years I made the mistake of laying up my old Frogeye Sprite without starting it for the whole winter. I then used to resurrect it with Bradex. Bradex ignites on compression I think, and the old A Series always used to merrily run with that strange popping sound until you stopped squirting.

It sounds like your timing is totally out, ie valves open on the compression stroke, otherwise the Bradex should fire the engine even in the total absence of fuel?

Hi
it feels like there is no compression but it cranks a lot faster with the plugs out so there is some. I know nothing about the engine and I am assuming it was working OK when last ran by the colour of the old plugs. I am leaning towards some or nearly all the valves not seating properly as the engine has not ran allegedly for 40 years. I was thinking along the lines of cranking it over with the plugs out and some thin oil in the bores but the starter seems a bit feeble so I don't want to burn it out. It would be nice to get the engine running to see how good or bad it is. it will be coming out again anyway when I do the bodywork and spraywork. I will get a compression tester on the job and take it from there.
clarkey

Did you take the engine to pieces, I can't remember? If you did and reset the valve timing, maybe it is out. When I did mine, even with the tappets backed right off, the cam moved after it had been set because of the pressure from the valve springs. You have to block it once it is set

However, if you haven't touched that and it ran before, it can't be valve timing. Maybe first principles - rocker covers off, see which cyl has both valves closed (ie firing) and see which lead the rotor arm is pointing to and go from there. I do a full cycle to check each firing stroke and corresponding lead

With the rockers off you can also see if any valves are stuck .....

If that's OK and there is a spark, back to petrol and compressions

Hi Simon
I didn't dismantle the engine apart from taking the distributor off and cleaning it and replacing it. might have a look there first but I did a quick check with the covers off and when no 4 valves are both shut (ie you can wiggle the rocker arm) the rotor arm was pointing at no 4 spark plug lead.
Clarkey

Perhaps you need to try the Australian version of the Bradex, I kid you not it's called 'START YOU orphan' perhaps it will frighten it into starting.
joking aside, good luck with sorting the problem, but I'd agree with Neil, if it won't start with Bradex then there's something that is not right, and it just isn't going to start without further investigation to pin the problem down, very disappointing  :(

Brian
8227 8)

Do you have room to try tow starting it? I have found a short tow can produce instant results after extended attempts with the starter have failed miserably...

I think I will try cranking it over with the plugs out a bit more and then possibly a tow start if that fails. Problem with the tow start is a lack of an experienced wheel man in the other vehicle my youngest would be up for it but I could see a calamity!!! I might have to rope Simon in on it when he comes over. There is a big empty car park behind the unit so no problems with space.
Clarkey

I have a feeling it is possible to fit distributors 180 degrees out, which wouldn't help the car to start.

That might be Ford 100Es though - after this nice bottle of Bordeaux I am having trouble remembering...

Fitted a distributor 180 degrees out myself once. On a two cylinder Fiat 126 I'd just rebuilt the motor on..... Struggled for a day until Mum (no mechanical knowledge at all....) suggested swapping the leads over.

Started first turn.

Worth a try moving plug leads round two holes on the dizzy cap?

Guy

Hi
sorry it has took me so long to reply..have been a bit busy the couple of months. The plan is when the exam board cough up for all those exam papers I have marked I will pop along to Machine Mart and purchase a compression tester and we will get to the bottom of the compression or lack of story. After we know where we are splodging we can start looking at other things.
Clarkey

Without knowing what size thread you need I've got a compression tester that I could loan you? Whilst they're not that expensive it's something you might only use 4 times? Or 6 in my case....

Guy

Thanks for the offer...but as it was my birthday...I lashed out on a cheapy set from Amazon so if I don't get distracted this weekend I will get the overalls on and have a play
Clarkey

Hi all
looking for some advice on the compression testing, the limited instructions want me to do the tests with the engine warm. So with oil in or with no oil in the bores??
Clarkey

No oil first.  If its low put a little in and see if it changes.  If the oil increases compression then suspect rings rather than valves. 

There's also a "leak down" test you can do, but at that point most would just lift the head for a look see...

Thanks David that was what I was thinking, will go and charge the battery up now
Clarkey

Hi all
It's compression Jim but not as we know it... 25lb on one cylinder dry. nada, nothing, zilch on the other 3, then 55lb on the 'good' cylinder with a bit of oil in the bores, also a 25lb reading on one of the other cylinders. Seems some of the valves are sticking open. Any advice? not really wanting to dismantle the engine in the car. Will have another play tomorrow.
Deflated of Hartlepool

Was worth testing.

Would it be worth lifting just the rocker cover to see if anything obvious shows up? You might be able to dose the valve stems with a little penetrating oil.

Hi all
I have took the rocker covers off and everything is moving as it should but I guess a valve only has to stick open a couple of mm to prevent any compression building up. I think the way forward is as you say get some oil down the valve guides and keep spinning the engine over. On the starter motor the engine might spin over at what? 50 rpm tops but if it would start and run we would get 500 rpm possibly and that might warm the head up and free off the guides. Another thought was to heat up the engine with a sump heater but can't seem to find one suitable. The ones I have seen advertised are for greenhouses and would probably set the car on fire!!!
Clarkey

If you can form a bit of a tent over the engine with something not too obviously inflammable then a fan heater should get things pretty warm.

Quicker to whip the head me thinks....

If the valves are sticking doesn't that introduce a danger of piston to valve contact? 

How long and where has it been standing?  Could the valves have got damp and rusted and now need grinding in?

Would coke give these symptoms? 

Able to peek at the piston tops?  What were the plugs like?  Know anyone with an endoscope?

Rocker clearances ok? 

While "as long as it closes" is a start it has got to both open long enough to suck something in as well as close to compress.

Hi all
Big thanks for all the advice..had another play this afternoon and we have some compression on all 4 cylinders still very low around 30-40 PSI but better than yesterday. Last thing I did yesterday was just spin the engine over with the plugs out. After today I am encouraged it is just sticky or very poorly seating valves so it might yet come to taking the head off.
Clarkey

Update
tried the engine warmer thing with the fan heater worked a treat! prob is the valve clearances on some of the inlet valves got bigger indicating the valve is sticking a bit lower down will try again tomorrow when it has cooled down
Clarkey

The Appia engine is a rare case of a two camshaft engines in which removal of the cylinder head does not change valve timing. Why not removing and servicing the cylinder head? It is not a difficult job, Andrea

Hi all
Got sidetracked today so no progress... On reflection Andrea is probably right I just wanted to check the gearbox and clutch were OK before I went mad on the engine..so tomorrow might see the head off as I have a new head gasket to hand. I would have preferred to do this type of stuff with the engine on a stand so I might take the whole lot out. Hmmm......
Clarkey

I would probably take the head off as well, and so long as it isn't stuck on its studs, it is very easy ......

A simple method to free the cylinder head (once ALL nuts are undone and the coolant is drained) is to turn by hand quickly the crankshaft (with the starting handle or spanner) with the plugs fitted. Any reasonable compression will lift the head. Andrea

Hi all
any special tools needed to take the valves out..my valve spring compressor has gone walkabout.
Clarkey

You can bounce them out with a socket - find a suitable socket , 19 or 22 1/2" for example. Place it on the valve spring cap (not on the valve stem) and tap firmly, not hard, with a rubber hammer several times, quickly and it should flick out the collets.

Putting them back is easier with 2 people if you don't have the spring compressor

NB best if you have the head on a flat surface covered with a sheet of cardboard or similar

I believe the club could hire you a spring compressor, but why noy buy one they are always a good thing to have if messing with old cars?

Hi all
had to go and fix a poorly PC yesterday so no progress...but seeing as the bodywork repairs won't start till later this year I will have a rummage for my valve spring compressor or buy a new one  and whip the head off.
Clarkey

Re valve spring compressor
No sign of it in my toolbox of doom so scored a cheapy one from ebay be here Thursday.. Alarmed to read some reviews on new ones from Halfords how the the threads stripped after three valves!!!! so went for an old fashioned cast thingy
Clarkey
ps any more tips for taking the head off.. can you take the inlet manifold off? will the ends of the rockers take a grindstone to take out any dents same goes for the little pushrods

Hi all
made a start this afternoon, got all the rocker shafts and head nuts off so tried to loosen the head by spinning it over on the key...no discernible movement... have I missed anything.. Will have another play tomorrow
Clarkey

I assume the plugs are still in?

Now I've never tried this myself but it's something my Dad said many years ago that worked for him. Assuming cylinders 1 and 4 on an inline engine are matched you can try feeding some nylon rope through the plug holes and then spin the engine. The rope will compress but when there's enough in there it should pop the head loose. My experience with cylinder head removal is limited to Betas and they use bolts, not studs.

Guy

Bolts make things rather easier because once they are removed you can put a block of wood against the side of the head and belt it with a Birmingham screwdriver. With studs, the fact that you have removed the nuts from the top does not mean the studs themselves are not still welded onto the head by time, corrosion and sheer bloody mindedness. Martin Buckley wrote about a similar problem on a Flaminia engine in Classic & Sportscar in April 1990. His dad tried everything including a trolley jack under the exhaust manifold. The studs were so firmly seized that he was able to lift the whole front of the car off the ground without releasing the offending head. The final solution was to heat up the head judiciously with an oxyacelylene torch then cooling the studs with thin oil. Even this took some hours of repeated heat cycles to release the head.

There may be an easier solution out there though....

Hi all
The plugs were all in and it turned over very slowly so I will try charging the battery and having another go. I was wondering if there is anything else to undo, the inlet manifold is still on as is the exhaust manifold but there is only a short bit of pipe on there. The carb linkage is disconnected along with the top hose and the fuel line (plugged with a golf tee) there is a heater hose on the bottom of the inlet manifold and a banjoed metal pipe from the manifold to the head??
Thanks for all the advice, the one about the nylon rope is interesting
If none of these methods work I might have to put the engine crane back together and take the engine and box out AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
Clarkey

The head WILL come off ..... it is simply a matter of what method will do the job most easily and with no damage!!!

I have heard of the nylon rope method before but have never tried it. It is sound in principle, but I have yet to meet anyone who has used it. My concern is that somewhere there will be something still securing the head, maybe a nut not removed and so there is that potential for damage!!! Please note that I am a renowned worrier!!!

Pretty much guaranteed, but a lot of work is to use the method I  employed on the B20. It requires making a puller consisting of a steel plate drilled to match the rocker shaft securing studs and the head studs. The holes matching the head studs are tapped. MO ... bolt the plate onto the head using the rocker shaft studs. Insert bolts into the threaded holes over the head studs. Tighten these bolts down evenly to bear onto the ends of the head studs thus lifting the head in a controlled, level manner. A lot of work, but it does the job!!!!

I should add here that I have not done this on an Appia and assume that rocker shaft studs and head studs are arrayed in a suitable manner.

Good luck!!

                       Andy

Hi Andy
sounds like a good idea except I have no taps or dies....might be time for the rope trick...will have a play after lunch have been working on a database for a customer and now my head hurts.
Clarkey

Hi all
resorted to the engine crane only result was the car was lifted off the ground! have left the studs to soak overnight  and will get the blowlamp out tomorrow
Clarkey

Sorry for my silly question but have you removed the hidden back bolt? Andrea

I mean nut and not bolt, Andrea

Hi
one of the domed nuts down the back of the head has been removed making 12 in all with 1 large domed nut from the middle of the head. The damned thing is so solid it feels like all the nuts are still on!
Clarkey

Hi all
the plan today is to stick the blowlamp either down the thermostat hole (no thermostat in there) or up the exhaust manifold then get the engine crane to give some tension onto the studs by pulling up on the head and the with a block of wood tap the cylinder block down to loosen the head..sounds easy but I bet there will be a lot of swearing...
Clarkey

no swearing just frustration...have left the car suspended from the head as I am at lunch now...tried heating the head up with a blowlamp no effect...

Hi all
have been working last couple of days but some good news some of the penetrating oil I put on the top of the 4 small studs in the middle of the head has gone so it must have soaked in a bit! just 2 more to go and I will have another try at getting it off . the pics show the issues in using the Aurelia type puller as the rocker shaft mounts are not in the same plane as the head studs
Clarkey

It's a bit of an engineering exercise but an Aurelia type puller could be made using a plate with a set of suitably heavy metal straps bent to pick up the rocker studs. The straps could be  bolted to the rocker shaft studs at their lower end and to the horizontal plate at their top end. This would lock the plate to the head to allow the pusher bolts to press down on the head studs.

If this is likely to be a recurring problem might it be something for the consortium to invest in and hold as a special tool for hire?

None of my business really. Perhaps I am getting obsessive about the technical challenge!

Frank T

Hi Frank
I think it probably is a tool the consortium needs to look into producing. I was having a look at my spare head and mused about a flat top plate with side plates that would hook under the edge of the head and fasten on with the inlet and exhaust manifolds mounting studs. the aim would be to get the head off with the engine still in the car without needing cranes and massive blowlamps. From what Andy says it is pretty undramatic using the one he made.
Clarkey

update
after more walloping and easing oil all the studs now can be jiggled about bar one, the big bad one in the middle succumbed to my economy size hub puller hooked on to an exhaust port and under the inlet manifold stud. Will try and free off the last small recalcitrant one tomorrow.After that I can't see what is holding it down??? Just 40 years of not being disturbed I guess
Clarkey

Had a go at the head puller

Was thinking I should do a quick renovate of the spare head and bung that on when the old one finally comes off...any thoughts on skimming etc. keep the same rocker shafts or use the originals from the head in the car..as always any advice is most helpful
Clarkey

Watching this with interest !

Do you think that you can find a way to press on the "hidden" bolt at the back ? Probably not necessary if you can press on the other 12

re hidden stud
I have included this one in the holes I have drilled and will tap but I might need a longer bolt to reach it
Clarkey

You will know soon enough what studs you need to provide force on when it starts to lift!! You are very wise to drill and tap for that stud, once you have started you will not want to stop, remove everything and drill and tap for a further stud!!

How will you attach the plate to the head? This is the one variable. I would favour straps to the manifold studs, but if you can come up with an easier way that would be excellent!

Good luck, Andy

Hi Andy
Tried some straps over the top of the plate clamped on with the exhaust and inlet manifolds and hooked under the bottom of the head.
Result 13 screw threads 1 metal straps 0...The power of all those screw threads just pulled the strapss till the 90 degree bend I had put in straightened out and the strap just pulled up past the manifolds..

on the car .... will investigate refitting the rocker shafts and putting some holes through the plate and using rope to fasten the plate to the head using either the shafts or the shaft mounting block. I'm guessing if I had some thicker flat bar that would have done it but then making the bends in it would be more difficult. My local blacksmith might have some ideas.
Clarkey

What about putting it under as much tension as the straps can take then going round tapping the heads of the the bolts in a regular rythmic fashion and seeing if you can contiue to tighten ( use a torque wrench ?) the bolts little by little with copious pentrating fluid.

I had in mind that you could drill the straps to go onto the manifold studs and bolt them up tight. This would put the manifold studs into shear, but I would hope that the head would not be so tight that it could cause a problem.

I am sure you are very nearly there, keep at it!!

                              Andy

Tried the rope thing it just keeps stretching...will now try some spring hangers hooked into some rocker shaft pillars...

Holy exploding rocker shaft mountings!!! tried the spring hangers hooked into some rocker shaft mounts method seemed to be going OK till one of the mounts failed and flung a rather heavy spring hangar across the workshop...thing is those screws are very powerful as several of the spring hangars had bent even before the mount failed...ray of light at the end of the tunnel, seems the gasket has eased a little as we had a slight weep of water from between the head and block and if you pour some in it comes out at the head gasket join...hmmm...or... I've cracked the blooming thing in half...will have another go tomorrow....
I was thinking of using the rocker shafts with some U clamps two each side, drill some holes in the puller plate and off we go..what could go wrong?
Clarkey

If water is coming out the head face you can probably get some penetrating oil to go in the other direction. I had always imagined straps bolted to the rocker studs at one end and into the plate at the other end. However with the force being deployed, the straps will probably bend up against the retaining nuts before the head moves. If using this approach it would be worth planning how you will remove the strap retaining nuts afterwards.

Frank T

Hi All
off to do battle with the cylinder head again. have gone down the route of 10mm U-bolts looped under the rocker shafts then through the puller plate to give a stronger mechanical connection between the head and the plate. only worry is the rocker shafts...also with the shafts on you lose access to some of the studs. I have left it under tension since Thursday night as Matron had a puncture in the middle of hurricane Abigail at 7.30pm just as I was getting ready to give it some serious tightening up. The weather was atrocious...but Got the tyre changed was I relieved to see a spare in the boot of her new car phew!! hopefully the elves will have got it off by now we shall see
Clarkey

When I made my head puller for the aurelia B21 engine I did not thrust to fix it 'only' to the studs for the rockers as many do.
Instead I made removable 'side plades' which bolt over the studs for the inlet and exhaust manifold studs.  Maybe this is a better (more secure) way of securing the 'puller plate' to the head on appia's too.
Will try to locate some photo's which I seem to have missaved (is that a word???)

Hi all
Good news ...the head is off and on the bench

Well done! Studs look fine.

Initial prognosis?

Bores look good but I had soft piston rings from a Fulvia that came out of long term storage. Wouldnt be much to drop the sump and pop the pistons.....

Hi
I will give the head a tidy up and get it skimmed if necessary...I'll have a think on the pistons etc as I just wanted to get the engine going so I can move the car as I am moving it to another unit next month and am seriously behind schedule. The plan was to take the engine and gearbox out when I start on the bodywork and do the engine as required in parallel with the bodywork.
Clarkey

The whole country must have resounded to the communal sigh of relief when that head came free. There can't have been so much interest in the removal of a head since the guillotine was up and running.

Frank T

PHEW!!!!!!

Once again proof of the method.

Forgive me Tim, but what are 'soft piston rings'. And how/why do they occur?
Chris

Chris, soft piston rings... When I had a low mileage 1.3 it burnt oil when accelerating badly and had low compression across the 4 cylinders. I took the pistons out and could easily peel the rings off. Putting new ones one was a completely different experience. The old (less than 18k miles engine) could be opened quite easily as if the metal had gone soft. New rings cured the problem. There was obviously no wear in the lands given the low miles. The car had been stored for some years then lightly used after that.....i do not understand whether this was a batch problem on the original rings or whether something metalurgical happens over time.

Thanks Tim.
Never seen that even on old engines with little recent use. I suspect it must be inferior quality from day one.
Chris

Unlike the Fulvia, it is not so simple to take the pistons off the Appia engine, Andrea

Well down getting the head off. 
I have had problems over the years getting heads off Appia engines I have bought.
My preferred method is to remove the engine from the car. Remove all the head nuts and then spray Innotec Deblocking oil or a penetrating oil on all the studs. 
Suspend the engine with about an 10mm clearance off the floor. Then hit the large central  stud with the nut on with a  hammer that has a copper head every day this took about month and the head came off.  I managed to get the head off an 814 Appia engine this way which had been left outside for a number of years.  The next problem was to remove the seized pistons that’s another story.

Hi all and Will
with the puller the head came off with the engine in the car in about an hour and a half so it is a useful tool. Some refinements might include beefing up the five central bolts to 10mm and cutting some slots in the plate so you can check the bolts are on the studs and not just screwing their merry little way into the cylinder head. Once the gasket had relinquished it's grip the central bolt on it's own was enough to pull the head up using the other 4 central bolts to keep the plate in alignment. as everyone has said what a relief. have made some progress on the head today see pics
Clarkey

Sorry about the poor photos but in real life the valve seats are very crusty on some of the valves and were not seating properly, some were as can be seen by the shiny ring on the seats.Managed to get a bit of the gunk off in the last piccy
Clarkey

That water channel in the top right of the last picture looks like it's getting a bit close to the cylinder. Will that need welding or will you get away with it as is?

frank T

Hi Frank
I will risk it for a biscuit...might be a bit busy with other stuff so if I could get the car mobile it would be helpful, will try and clean the head up a bit more then try a new gasket on it to see what it looks like
Clarkey

 
Cold Metal Spraying


UK agent Nick Gilfillan   nick@dycomet.co.uk  M: +44 (0) 7768 622448
http://dycomet.co.uk/


will repair that head quickly, safely and extremely effectively.    He has done wonders with my badly corroded Lambda head (see in Lambda forum  "fingers (and toes) crossed" and "technical data only" threads).   Get it done now and save much trouble!

Hi all
the head is in for skimming will see how it looks when I get it back. I had a look at 3 other heads in the consortium spares and they all looked the same in that area..
Clarkey

which may mean that they all fail in the same place!

Hi
the machine shop man will ring me tomorrow so we will see what he has to say, to be honest I am too busy to spend a lot of time on this so if he is doubtful we will get it welded up better safe than sorry
Clarkey

I hope he is a good welder then, welding aluminium is tricky and uses heat with a risk of distortion - hence cold metal spraying.  If the metal of the head is sound then it will be OK but old aluminium is often polluted and will not weld as I found to my cost on my Lambda block.     If you get into trouble then cold metal spray is the way to go and I do not get any payment from it either!

Hi all
the car is in his new home and the head is back from the machine shop see pics. I employed 2 son power to push the little beast round the industrial estate to the new unit, nice to report the brakes are sort of working.When I have finished the move I will hope to get the engine back together... I lost one of the tiny circlips on the valve stem are they mega important?
Clarkey

Happy New Year!
managed to squeeze a few hours in on grinding the valves in so have got 2 exhaust ones done will post some pics later

looks like it might be a bit fiddly getting the valves back in anyone know any wrinkles for this
Clarkey
ps have some mystery objects after the latest move when I get my camera sorted I will put the pics up

some more valves ground in 3 to go one of the exhaust valves was sticking over the first 10mm of movement ,bit of fine emery on the stem and now sorted. the inlet valves were a bit pitted and the seats crusty.
Clarkey

see pic of inlet valve seats

Nice even matt finish ;D

Brian
8227 8)

All valves back in...

Had to make a sleeve to fit the collets in the deeper seats
Clarkey

Looks very good the head now.

I wonder what the state of the pistons, rings and bores of your engine. My experience of loss of compression on the Appia can be that a piston ring has picked up. When I bought my car it was running on 3 cylinders. After I dismantled the engine. I showed Harry Manning no 3 piston which had a piece of metal missing were the top ring grove should be. He said it was a common problem and recommended using redex in the petrol as the top ring has
very little  lubrication. Over the years I had one piston pick up when the car was overloaded.
A quick check with the head off  is to fill the bores with paraffin and over a period of a couple of hours check which bores have any paraffin left if the bores. If the  pistons , rings and bores  are in good
order they should be very little loss.
 

Hi Will
Like the tip about the paraffin ...will try that tomorrow..
Clarkey

I was thinking about the paraffin thing when I remembered I put a fair drop of oil down the bores that sat on top of the pistons so I guess the rings etc are OK. Cleaned the top of the block up tonight, some of the waterways are a bit gunked up. I have a spare block that came with the car I might be using that when I strip the engine down.
Clarkey

Paraffin being lighter than oil gives a more stringent test for leakage. Would this make a critical difference?

Hi all
not sure about the relative viscosities of oil and parafin but I know the oil was still in there a day or two later. bit more done today..had a scare when I found the big centre nut would not go on so I had to lop off the damaged threads and carefully shape the stud till the nut would catch and recut the thread phew! in the process my £30 Draper 5" vice from India snapped in half slow but rough!!! Head gasket is in place just need to clean up the exhaust manifold flange on the head put some copper grease on the studs and the head will be back on
Clarkey

While I was busy today trashing vices and damaging screw threads I happened to line up the spare head that cam with the car with the refurbished one on my bench...can anyone explain this ...see pics

it's going to take you all of couple of hours to check the compression of your engine with paraffin. Oil is too thick. If you find the engine will not start after you have replaced the head. You will have to start all over again and take the head off again . The sort of compression loss you described in a earlier post indicates to me that you have bore problems.

Bad luck with the vice. I'm a great believer in picking up old tools an refurbishing then. The quality is so often better.

Hi all
good news bad news
obtained a good secondhand vice from Mr Gruffalo at my local car boot he also supplied the excellent hub puller I have used previously. Said vice is now securely mounted on the bench and the old one is in the skip.
Now the bad news...did the paraffin thing in the bores and shock horror within 10 minutes 3 of the bores were empty with only one holding onto it's paraffin for a couple of hours...Hmmm
the thing is the plugs and vales had a nice pale brown deposit indicating the engine was running OK (40 years ago???) so what has changed, the bores were not rusty or scored, the pistons are firm in their bores, the engine is nice and clean not covered in oil blown out with excessive crankcase pressure...so stuck/broken rings?
Clarkey
ps check a new thread for mystery items found in the Consortium spares

Gentle tap with a block of wood and 3lb club hammer??

Hi all
just came out from under the car...good news bad news again, bad news took piston out and the top ring was snapped, good news at least we know what the problem is!!! in my experience rings break when they are put into a bore that has not had the wear lip removed at the top of the bore...at bit of investigating tomorrow might solve if the rings have been replaced in the recent past. Anyone got any other reasons why the ring can break?
Clarkey

not gapped properly?
Regards, John

Hi
I assume if the pistons and rings were original the gaps should be OK..if they are replacement ones and the gaps were not set properly i.e too small? the rings would have less space to expand into when hot..a mystery
Clarkey

As I said in an earlier post lack of top ring lubrication they sometimes break or pick up.
When I strip an Appia engine normally find some rings broken.
As Harry said use some redex.

The UK roads were gritted in the south last night.

suspect they are original from all you have said about the car. Most re-ringing is done with a stepped top ring to avoid the lip issue. Are the bores scored? Will you need to get it rebored and new oversize pistons?

Standing a long time and lack of lubrication.
My 2c had stood 21 years and although it was checked over (not Stripped) by the person doing the restoration, on my way home after collection with only 27K miles on the clock, it was running ok and not making any nasty noises, but after about 50 miles it started covering the windscreen of my wife's car behind me with an oil mist, it still seemed to be running ok so we carried on,when I got home I had it checked and a broken piston ring and scored a bore was found, necessitating a complete strip down, rebore and oversize pistons, not cheap ::)
If the engine hadn't been stripped and you've got away without a scored bore, I think you've been very lucky.

Brian
8227 8)

Update
all the pistons are out and the main cause of a lack of compression is the rings stuck in their grooves, only piston no 4 had a ring loose and this was showing about 50+ psi when tested, why no 1 had a broken ring is unknown I think it was all that spinning over I did. Anyway some of the other rings broke when I tried to take them out as they were well stuck. So a check of the ring gap with some new rings and we might get it back together. The big end journals look OK will have a better look tomorrow.
Clarkey

If you know an engine has been standing for a seriously long period of time is there anything you can do before turning it over to alleviate the problem of stuck piston rings?

Clarkey,  very pleased you finally decided to take the pistons out, as now you will be much more ascertained of a good and lasting result!

  I have heard of people filling the cylinders with diesel when an engine is left for a long time. I assume it seeps past the rings eventually, but lubricates them on the way.
Regards, John

I  have used both WD40 and Redex. This is where the V engine is a pain as sometimes only the low side of the piston gets the treatment!!!

                                    Andy

Thanks for the responses, it's useful to know. I suppose with a v engine you could try to alleviate the problem by jacking the car up nice and high on each side in turn while lubricating each bank.

read up on Redex and it no longer has upper cylinder lubricant in it as they reckon modern petrol has it in....

No point in fitting new rings without glaze busting the bores beforehand, otherwise the new rings will not bed in. Also measure the rings in the piston grooves, if they are too worn they will pump oil past the inside of the rings. Measure the ring gaps in the cylinder they are going in as they can vary, and gap them to that cylinder. If you`re not reboring and there is a lip, use stepped rings on the top compression ring. Good Luck.

Hi all
Hmm... methinks I will have to rebuild the engine on the bench...faffing about under the car trying to keep 60+ years of dust and grit out of the inside of the engine is a recipe for disaster also I think just replacing the rings and big ends is a waste of money now as I want the engine to be as reliable as possible when it is in the car as a quick estimate it will be £300 to do this quick fix. I appreciate the full rebore and regrind will be more expensive but will make more sense financially. So I will get the engine and box out split the block off and get Don's rebore man to sort it out. I can get the crank ground locally.
Clarkey

Hi all
bit more progress...the engine and gearbox are out and the block is split from the crankcase...it was quite easy with the aid of an engine crane, some axle stands and a couple of jacks...will post some pics later as I have left the camera at the unit...next job will be to get the crankshaft out, any tips?
Clarkey

some pics

some more pics

and some more...the crank fails the finger nail test on 3 of the journals with only 1 being nice and smooth so it will need a regrind

When you take the main bearings out to remove the crankshaft.
You need to remove the oil feed pipe as it is bolted through the crankcase
to the main bearing housing.

Thanks Wil for that tip will possibly let rip on the bottom end later in the week

Hi all
had a go at getting the crank out...Hmmm....do you have to take all the sprockets off or will the crank tap out when the rear mounting nuts are undone? the crank toothed sprocket is just held on by the pulleyand located with the spacer? did not want to get the 2lb club hammer on the job so any tips?
Clarkey

I have taken the oil pipe in the picture off still no movement...

Do you need to take the two camshaft plugs out?

It's a long while since I had the pleasure of working on an Appia motor, but don't you have to screw some bolts into the three tapped holes at 10, 2 and 6 o'clock in the first picture to draw the rear main out first?
Regards, John

Spot on - 3 x 10mm head (M6 without checking) bolts to withdraw the rear main bearing , then the crank pulls out. No need to touch the cam nuts

rocker cover bolt size?

Hi all
found some bolts and the crank is out...the bearings are worn through to the backing on the rear bearing and a bit thin on the front bearing....see pics
Clarkey

more pics

Hi all
just came off the phone from my engine man he is quoting £120 for the rebore and £100 for the regrind...might gamble on another block that came with the car and get it honed for £40 and another £50 on getting 2 studs helicoiled....save £30? I should be so lucky! however this block is a later one with more water jackets Hmmm...Off to see him tomorrow
Clarkey

Hi all
blocks and crank still with the engine man so took the chance to get the crankcase on the engine stand so I can get it really clean. was tempted to use my Karcher power washer..any opinions on this can you still buy GUNK?
Clarkey

Ideally for aluminium casings you ought to use an Alkaline solution, it removes baked on oil and carbon, and importantly is water soluble. "Metasoak" aluminium cleaner.
Try www.aptcleaningsupplies.co.uk   they also sell Gunk and Jizer, which is water soluble.
John

Before I started rebuilding the Flaminia engine, I had every single casting/aluminium plate professionally chemically cleaned by a company in Birmingham. This was the best thing I have ever done in relation to an engine rebuild, and from now on any further rebuilds will incorporate this process. It was not expensive.
Dave

Re Karcher, if it's all coming apart I would have thought it OK to use but if any bearings or seals are still in the crank case you would be likely to force water behind them.

Hi all
thanks for the tips...I'm thinking soak it all in the metasoak stuff then blast it with the Karcher after plugging all the oilways etc up.
Clarkey

If you have a compressor you can always blow through the oil ways with the air line after washing.

Hmmm...I have been looking at compressors since the nice man in the next unit who makes tricks for magicians donated me a nice set of spray guns. On further investigation the compressors sold by places like Aldi for around £100 are next to useless for bigger jobs like spraying a car and will struggle even to spray large panels before the air tank will need recharging, also the cubic feet per minute for spraying has to be around 14 so again a limitation. To sum up a 150L 3HP belt driven compressor for around £350 will be suitable for wide range of jobs and I will have to start saving up! best to see how much this engine rebuild comes out at first. I was toying with the idea of getting the shell stripped, blasted and etch primed.
Clarkey

I find a compressor invaluable so you won't regret the investment. Remember for spraying you will need to add filter and moisture trap to the initial investment.

The compressor will have to go on the back burner till after my exam marking is over the good news is I have three sets of papers to mark so more pennies to spend/waste on old cars and cameras. Rang my engine man today and he gave the classic response 'we are working on it now will get back to you tomorrow with an update'  I might pop over and surprise him..
Clarkey

tried the cutprice way of cleaning the crankcase with some of screwfix's degreaser and a hosepipe..at least you can touch it now without getting filthy.

Seems a long time since I rebuilt an engine...it was a 2 litre Vauxhall Victor...seemed a good idea to use a washing up bowl of petrol to clean some parts on the floor in the garage...but me being a fashionista no safety boots just a pair of platform boots with a steel edge on the heels...concrete...steel...how to make your car engine parts sound like a dog...more of a wumph than a woof actually. I noticed my lovely platform boots were on fire so I legged it out of the garage and shut the door. I was still at home so I thought I had better tell Mr Stern aka my Dad..I thought he would go crazy but when I said "I think I have set the garage on fire" he calmly replied "Have you son?" had a quick peek round the garage door and said " I think we had better call the firebrigade" what a star. The Vauxhall parts survived to run another day

Older and wiser,eh Jim ?

Update
I had a chat with the engine man who seems to work on the principle if you don't pester him you go to the back of his queue ...he has checked the crank and tells me it is within wear limits and can remain standard size..he also said it will of developed a hardened skin so will wear very little in future??? new one on me any metallurgists out there?? The original block is worn and probably needs a rebore, the spare block that came with the car is hardly worn so he is going to hone it and let me know next week. The plan forming in my head is to get the engine rebuilt pop it back in the car to test it and then strip the car to do the bodywork and paint. I am averse to having an engine in bits alongside all the parts from the rest of the car bits always wander off!
Clarkey
ps as the head has been skimmed the compression ratio will be higher a rebore might compensate for this that is if the pistons clear the valves!!!

update
the engine man will be reboring the block next week now we have got the special tool courtesy of the Appia Consortium. this is a big wedge shaped piece of metal that ensures the boring machine is at the correct angle as it munches it's way into the block. He is also going to check some bearings on the crankshaft
Clarkey

not much to report except the marking is finished for another year...been a bit busy keeping an eye on Jim Clarke senior as he has had a stroke and was a quite poorly..good to report the old so and so is getting back to his cantankerous best...scary thing is he wants to get behind the wheel of a car again...what was Ralph Naders book called again?
Clarkey (junior)

Er "Unsafe at Any Speed"?  (but you knew that).

Rumour going round my engine bits are ready....down in deepest dark North Yorkshire looking after Jim Clarke Senior who has had a fall and another ride in an ambulance. So it will be later in the week when I can get home. Pic shows my Dad riding in a GEC diesel train near where he lives

Look what has turned up

No stopping you now then ...... I'll expect it to be running when I get there at Christmas - this year !

My gawd those bores look horribly close?????

that's the bottom of the block. They are more generously spaced at the top.
And on the Fulvia, these bores are even scalloped, since the pistons aren't ever at the bottom at the same time!

Surely, when No. 1 is at the bottom, so is No. 3 and when No. 2 is at the bottom, so is No. 4.
The same goes for the top.
Regards, John

Note to self....must pay more attention!

Good catch John, but I think you mean that 1/4 are on the bottom at the same time, and so are 2/3.
Model of Appia crank shown below.

Quite! Would be interested to see the head gasket?

It depends on how Lancia numbered the cylinders. The front one on the crankshaft isn't always No. 1. The front one on the Lambda and Augusts are given number 2. No. 1 on the Lambda is the cylinder nearest the driver (on a right hand drive car) and No. 1 on an Augusta is the opposite one, i/e. the front left or second crank pin. I think Lancia did this so that the firing order was always 1,2,3 4! On the Lambda is goes anti-clockwise (seen from the top) and on the Augusta clockwise.
Regards, John

Thanks for the info, John.Those early cars are tricky.

On the Appia, the workshop manual assigns cylinder #1  to the first journal, and #4 to the last. The owners manual (s.2) says the firing order is 1342 (as shown on the ignition distributor) and that the numbering of cylinders is on the head. Hopefully 1 is still 1, etc.

Hi all
just an update...went to see my engine man today as I forgot the crankshaft last week....had a thought before I went over about the core plugs in the bottom of the block....30-40 pounds to replace them I am advised... and he says he will pop the pistons in the block as he was unsure about no 4 with it being back to front...I have to take JCS to get his steristrips taken off tomorrow so I will try and get these couple of jobs done by the end of the week...hopefully...
Clarkey akaJCJ

pics of the cleaned up pistons and new mains

Any tips on getting the plugs out of the end of the crank? will they get destroyed in the process?
Clarkey

I normally hand the crankshaft to engineering shop.
They use a selection of stud extractors so they need to be replaced.
With new plugs there used to be some in consortium store

I'll check and see if we have any..thanks

Assuming plugs in the crankshaft are similar to the Aprilia they are aluminium and have to be drilled out very carefully so as not to damage the female threads in the crankshaft.
Start with a small drill centered as accurately as possible and drill right through the plugs then repeat with gradually increased drill sizes until you reach the thread.
If you are lucky the final bit of the plug comes out like a length of curly wire. Then you may need to poke around with something like a dentists probe to get the last bits out and you will need a tap of the correct size to finally clean up the threads before thoroughly washing out the drillings and blowing clean with compressed air.
So not a job to be undertaken lightly but generally considered to be essential if a crank has been re-machined.
I used threaded alloy rod to replace mine on the Aprilia. I think 10mm diameter by 1mm pitch and cut each one off after screwing them in with thread locking compound,finally filing them off smooth.
So as you will see they are certainly not re-usable and you cannot usually get them out with stud extrators.
As Will says probably best to have the machine shop do it but there are a few stories out there about disasters because it has not been done properly.
Ben

thanks for the advice

so the 2 plugs 28 & 30 are the same thread see pic...what about 31

seems we have all sorts of crank plugs so we should be OK

in the book of words it says there are 5 small plugs but me and the engine man could only see 4... Hmmm...

5 webs should mean 5 plugs!!

Four big end journals means four oil feed drillings so surely four plugs?

new toy

Santa came early !

Might there be a plug in one end of the crankshaft? Just a thought!

                     Andy

Hi Andy
there are 2 one in each end but they are a different size. I will try and get over to see how the engine man has been getting on today and we might find out if it is 4 or 5 web plugs
Clarkey

update
he has done 2 plugs and promises me everything will be done for Friday...watch this space
Clarkey

some more compressor bits came so am off to have a play pics to follow

I will go and see the engine man Monday or Tuesday...the block and crank are probably safer in his workshop than mine at the moment as I am having a rearranging session...did you get that gearbox from Don?
Clarkey

Yes, I got the gearbox thank you, but have not had the time to fit it yet!!! I have completely redecorated the workshop to make it brighter and, more importantly, to seal in the dirt before I change mode from bodywork restoration to engine rebuilding!!!

I have to paint the last 25% of the floor before everything gets moved back into its final place and then ....... swap the Appia gearbox!!!! ............... and then rebuild the B20 engine, that will be interesting!!!

                             Andy

should keep you out of mischief..bit of a lash up with some bits for the new compressor I ordered some connectors and pipe to plumb in the water trap and lube thingy but the postman brought me a gas strut for a car hatchback?!?!!?! Went to see the engine man on Friday he tells me he has been off work with a bleed in his eye and needed an injection in it..nasty...anyway he promised to get the work done on the block and crank by sometime this decade...
JCS has been back to the witch doctors who have changed his meds abit and he seems a bit more with it so fingers crossed..if not he will have to come and live with me or my sister.
So overall no progress at all with this restoration. I don't want to start creating loads of dust and muck till the engine is back together so Matthew will have to be patient before he can have a go with the sander/saw thing i bought from Aldi

update
no progress of late as fully occupied getting JCS safely into a care home
Clarkey

good news JCS is safely ensconced in a nice care home...we tried to look after him at home but my sister found if he went down she could not get him back on his feet...anyway they have chickens where he is now and we have arranged for Mum to join him in a week  so he should be fine...

bad to worse JCS is back in hospital after a fall and a bump to the head so no progress lately

JCS still in hospital

I'm sorry to hear that Jim, I hope things improve soon.

Andy

update JCS now out of hospital and back in his cosy care home where we have also managed to install Mum so touch wood they will have a nice Christmas. Must try and get the engine back before the Christmas break...wonder whayt excuse my engine man will have Hmmm....
Clarkey

went to see the engine man...all shut up so I rang him and it sounded like he was at a Santa's Grotto...anyway... he did let slip the crank was done but he would have to check the progress on the block etc...he promised he would ring me...you can guess what happened next. I will try again tomorrow in between the gasman coming and going to the dentist.
Clarkey

Got to see the engine man...he is a bit confused re the plugs in the crankshaft..he has done 2 but says the other two on the webs don't go anywhere. I dug out a diagram of the lubrication system in colour and took it over for him to peruse...watch this space
Clarkey

update
the engine man is going to replace the core plug things and pressure test the block he says...

Well the "clean" room is ready for the engine rebuild but the engine man is still holding on to it..next Wednesday he tells me he has done the 4 core plugs and needs to pressure test the block then there are 2 plugs in the crank..
Clarkey

JCS back in hospital and now has pneumonia...will go and see the engine man tomorrow because my loan car (with a big boot) is going back and I will struggle to get the block etc in the boot of the Beetle Cabriolet
Clarkey

Sorry to see your father is unwell again Jim.

Good luck with the engine man!!!!

                          Andy

Hi all...got to see the engine man, he informs me that one of the core plugs in the bottom of the block is leaking and we need another one so dropped one off this morning. he might actually know what he is doing.
####### STOP PRESS#######
he said it will be ready for Friday!
here's hoping
Clarkey
JCS still in hospital

Hi Clarkey,

I would change them all as they tend to rot from the not visibel side...and if one is bad I would'nt thrust any of 'm...now you're at it it's a very small job...

Hi
it was one of the replacement ones that was leaking he had put 4 new ones in and when he tested the block for pressure one of the new plugs was losing pressure so he now has a another new one to put in....fingers crossed he will be done for Friday
Clarkey

Ref your core plugs: If they are saucer type the recess needs to be really grease free, then a slight bead of Araldite around the edge of the plug and tap it in. Lay the block horizontally and warm the Araldite to let flow around the plug. Leave until hard and you won`t have any leaks. Most engine builders fit them like that and I`ve never had one come out or leak.
John

JCS passed away last Monday so been a bit busy with arranging the funeral. However the engine man is on the way to Middlesbrough so I popped in and he has got some more done
pics to follow
Clarkey

pics

more

and more

last one
using a new camera that has more computing power than the space shuttle so had to drop the image quality down.
anyway the piccies show the block with the 4 new core plugs on the pressure testbench and the cleaned up crank just needing the end plug putting in. he promised to fit the new rings as well so I will give him another week and pop over and see what he has been up to...meanwhile I have to sort out my parents house so it can be sold.
Clarkey

oops

That is all looking good Jim, you will soon be on your way!!!. I love the old valves used as pegs in the testing rig!!!

                    Andy

when I go to see the engine man I always get the impression he is absolutely snowed under with work as his machining room is stacked out with engines in various states of disassembly and out front and in his garage bit 2 or 3 cars are lacking vital parts from under the bonnet. Another week or so and perhaps the great reassembly can begin

Hi all
check out the piccies for what the elves left me for being a good boy and getting all those newsletters out
Clarkey

So for £240 he rebored the block, cleaned and checked the crank for wear, drilled out and replaced the oilway plugs in the crank and cleaned the crank out, replaced the core plugs and pressure tested the block, cleaned up a set of old pistons we had, replaced the gudgeon pins and fitted new rings, fitted the pistons into the block. Just up to me now to get it back together
Clarkey

Sounds great value. Hope you get it back together soon.

Excellent - nothing stopping you now, running by the weekend ?

 ;D ;D ;D

Looking good, great value, am sure you're pleased.

If its not running by Sunday midnight, we'll all be very disappointed! ;D

P

trying to get all the muck out of the waterways at present. I was planning on putting a new waterpump on but might go with the old one first to get all the stuff I can't get out in circulation then give the block a flush out with it in the car, was toying with the no water stuff as seen on Wheeler Dealers anyone tried this?
Clarkey

Sorry to disappoint but still tied down with sorting out estates and stuff no progress this week
Clarkey

no progress sorry

Managed a couple of hours so cleaned up the sump, still concerned about all the gritty stuff in the water passages of the block so will try a bit more scraping and sucking out the bits with the hoover
Clarkey

Hi all
some progress see pics still concerned about all the muck and grit so will investigate a parts washer thing seen one for £95 delivered and we still have a lot of things that need taking off and cleaning such as the suspension etc
https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/cleaning-and-hygiene/cleaning-baths/50ltr-parts-washer-floor-standing/p/KEN5038640K
Clarkey

sorry about the second photo but it looks as if yet another digital camera has gone on the fritz, mind it is held together with sellotape

looks to me like it saw a lot of white and exposed accordingly, not a fault in the camera, but the user! Regards, John

Hmmm....could be that but I have tried it with a new battery today and it still looks a bit wishy washy It feels like the flash is not strong enough shame as it has been a good ebay buy for a fiver as it has a lot more controls than my new digi camera a Sony 20Mega pixel device
Any way had a good day at the engine rebuild but nearly had a disaster as the bolts fastening the front bearing did not go in straight 4 of them and they stripped a thread or so out of the crankcase AAAGGGHHH!!! luckily the holes are tapped right through the crankcase and I was able to run the bolt back through and clean up the threads. To prevent this I used three longer bolts to line up the bearing carrier then got 2 of the proper bolts to start properly and when the carrier had got itself in the right approach fitted the other bolts.
Have ordered a cheapy parts washer so I will remove everything from the crankcase cams, bearing, oil pump etc and give it a proper clean
Clarkey

more

and more

Oh dear back to square one I noticed that my oh so slow engine man had forgotten to put the end plug in the rear of the crankshaft
disgruntled of Hartlepool

check out this little beauty.. only snag is I will have to sell one of the kids to be able to afford the 50litres of cleaning solvent
Clarkey

Hi all
A bit of progress as the marking is finished. Have managed to get the crank in on the front bearing will have a play with getting the rear carrier and bearing in next.
Clarkey

Hi all..any tips to get the rear bearing on? I am loath to start wacking it with the rubber hammer but it is difficult to not get it off centre. The front bearing was the same but by twisting and pushing it went in OKish bit tight, we will have to see what it is like when both bearings are at the party
Clarkey

Bearing wrapped up in aluminum cooking foil and kept in the freezer for some time, hopefully more willing later to be fitted quickly. Andrea

Then pulled in evenly with 3 nuts

That is pretty much what I did!! As soon as you can get the nuts on the studs then go that way!!
Good luck, Andy

Hi all
bit more progress but the crank became virtually immovable when I tightened up the carrier nuts only to 15lbft so I took it all out again.
I am guessing but I think it has no endfloat on the crank
Clarkey

the picture of the bearing in the carrier is after I took it out

The first thing I would check is that the bearing is tight in the carrier and hard up against the shoulder of the carrier. In my car the bearing, when located by the pin, was not fully engaged in the carrier, so I removed the pin and pushed the bearing fully home in the carrier. Even so, there was no measurable end float, but importantly the crank rotates easily within the crankcase.
If the bearing is fully home within the carrier I wonder if it is possible to shim the carrier away from its mating face on the crankcase thus creating some end float!! The shim would have to take the form of the gasket to prevent oil loss!!

Good luck, Andy

Do you need the full 50 litres of cleaning fluid? My admittedly smaller one functions on 5 litres of Gunk. Alternately is there a cheaper substitute like paraffin maybe?

Is the front bearing in the correct position as well ? (no gasket)
Is the gasket behind the bearing carrier the correct thickness ?

That is the reccomendation from the manufacturers, with regards to using parafin I thought about it then remembered I set fire to my fathers garage one time...50 litres of parafin...Hmm

Hi all
update on the crank..My mate Terry came over and between us we got the crank in and rotating with the carriers just nipped up. What we did first was slacken off the bolts holding the front bearing carrier so the crank could be jiggled about alittle and then with some grease applied to the rear bearing and journal we managed to get the back carrier fully in without a gasket. By fitting the starter dog bolt thingy into the front of the crank which has a 24mm? flats as well we got a socket on and as I went round tightening up the rear carrier nuts Terry could turn the crank. What was noticeable was that as the carrier went in the crank would tighten up and as the nuts tightend again the crank would slacken off and be easier to turn. In addition copious amounts of engine oil made the crank easier again to turn.
Clarkey and Terry

Have you refitted the gasket ?

not much done today as me and Terry decided to celebrate last night with a few beers...I will strip it all back down clean it up put a new gasket in and try it again
Clarkey

If I can add my two pennorth, I know nothing about Appia engines, like most of you do, but I have built a lot of race and road engines and I wouldn`t be happy about the state of that bearing. It looks badly marked up like there`s not enough running clearance. I would advise that you purchase some " Plastigauge" and check the clearances on all the journals. The instructions are in the packet. It really is essential when reassembling an engine because you never can be sure that the crank has been ground correctly, I don`t care how good you think your machine shop is, check it! Also it appears from your photo that the thrust face hasn`t even contacted the crank, maybe the radius hasn`t been ground correctly? Not casting aspersions, just suggesting you check.

Thanks Jaydub I think the problem is the fact the front bearing was pushing the crank slightly offline and that meant the rear carrier fouled the crankcase when you tried to insert it. the crank has not been reground and the bearings are standard
Clarkey

"then remembered I set fire to my fathers garage one time" That seems a pretty good reason to be cautious about paraffin!

Sadly no progress as having to make room for the S2 from Scotland I have had to cram lots of stuff into the room where the rebuild of the engine is taking place. So the theory is we can do a round of musical chairs some space will appear. Having put the staircase in to the roof of the 2 rooms we have a bit more elbow room.
Clarkey

Stop Press
it is on the back of a wagon heading south
Clarkey

Drive carefully !

just got a big parcel containing a new exhaust and other goodies.....

some goodies not shown is a full exhaust
Clarkey

Hi all....just when you thought Clarkey will be stocking up for the winter I found time as I was waiting for Parcel Force to pick up sd's tank  to have a play with the engine bits. First off with the crank moving OK it now needs taking out cleaning up a new carrier gasket and that heath robinson oil scraper thing putting back in...or did it...
Any way the elves had hidden the original cover (with the 5 cheese head screws) so I began to think if we found a S3 flywheel and the oil seal carrier will it all fit together???
It will but I will consult with the oracle before I bolt it all on.
The another problem when fitting the S3 flywheel  there was no little "0" on the ring gear teeth so lots of messing about with angle grinders etc I decided they must of put the crank in got it to TDC then stamped a tooth with the "0" except they had forgot on the S3 one I had found so I stuck a splodge of read paint on....time will tell.
Off to Scotland tomorrow to see the wealthiest member of the Clarke clan Uncle McKenneth McClarke so no more playing till Thursday.
Some Bad/Good news the sawbones is going to cut me open on the 12th of December to sort out this pesky hernia. problem is Matron will insist on complete bedrest I will go crackers. On top of all that we are trying to sell up and move to Scarborouigh or Scarbados as the locals call it.
Clarkey

Hi all
Crank out cleaned up and back in, replaced the oil pump gear wheel things and that is back on, cleaned up the S3 flywheel as the boss the oil seal sits around was rusty, put the rubber oil seal in the carrier, noticed that it looks like later cars have a different cover as the screws are domed headed philips these fit snugly into the cover better than the original cheeseheads.
The plan tomorrow is to get the flywheel and oil seal carrier on and get the engine mounted onto my engine stand...
Clarkey

Anyway...managed to get the oil seal cover on...should the screws be locked? the earlier type are??? flywheel is on, distributor tube cleaned and new gasket...that is when I thought where oh where should the big oil pump gasket go? it was not between the two halves of the pump so ...Anyway by walloping the base plate it dropped off revealing a tired old gasket that was replaced from my gasket set.
The current assembly has got too heavy for a man in my condition to hump out into the unit so my youngest son will come over to give me a hand. Then it will be connecting all those pistons up...........
Clarkey

Some more pics

just teasing here are some more pics

and finally

Hi all
Managed to get the oil filter housing and fuel pump on.
Clarkey

Hi all
With the help of my 2 sons the crankcase is now on the engine stand, just got the cam followers to put in and we can get the block fitted.
Clarkey

Cam followers in now

 
Some Bad/Good news the sawbones is going to cut me open on the 12th of December to sort out this pesky hernia. problem is Matron will insist on complete bedrest I will go crackers. On top of all that we are trying to sell up and move to Scarborouigh or Scarbados as the locals call it.
Clarkey
[/quote]
I had a hernia done - under local anaesthetic - and did not need to take to my bed at all - in fact I drove home.   Bedrest after an operation risks deep vein thrombosis in the leg, tell her.    However, I doubt the word of a mere doctor will trump that of Matron.  Good luck anyway!

Thanks for the support re the hernia!!
anyway there is always ebay Italy to play about on so I bought myself one of these

So what is it?   

Looks like a brake/sidelight bulbholder to me.

Hi all
It is for the headlamp bulb
Clarkey

It's BA 20D looks nice and clean ! I have had problems using LED bulbs with this type of socket

So have I in the Lambda. I think the trouble is the LEDs are much smaller and more directional light sources than the tungsten bulbs. I have had my reflectors resilvered as a last resort, but haven't driven the car at night since, so I don't know if it has worked.
 Regards, John

I'm guessing but I bet the original bulbs are not up to modern motoring some auxilary lighting might be the way to go linked in with full beam.

One more week and I can get back to messing about with old cars!!!

I actually had time to look at the engine today...it is just where I left it...
Clarkey

Hi all
a window of opportunity has opened up I have 2 weeks before the marking frenzy starts so I have transported all the engine parts up to my tent in Foxholes and will start tomorrow putting it back together...
Clarkey

there is more

Keep the photos coming !!!

More progress...a piston popped out but managed to get the rings back in OK..see pics

The block came with the pistons fitted so not having a ring compressor to hand we went for the all in at the same time approach

soon had them all in and connected up to the crank...question is big end bolts with tab washer or not the engine had none when dismantled so ?  As I feared a part has gone AWOL namely the timing chain tensioner plunger will see if I can find it tomorrow.
Clarkey

All turning over smoothly..I put some molybdenum stuff on the journals etc as it is quite stiff to turn by hand.

Located a plunger for the timing chain tensioner...strange I still have the spring but no plunger...of course there are 2 sizes so I brought one of each back from Hartlepool. had a trial fitting of the head and studs but I seem to have a series 1 set as some are too long and some are too small  ...dagnabit! Biggest problem is the lack of crank oilway plugs I understood the engine man had replaced these but alas all that is to be seen is 4 nicely cleaned out holes...Of course I have sold the last 4 the consortium has leaving just 1 left dagnabit again!! Anyway the head goes on OK and comes off again phew...just need the crank plugs and we will have it all put back together so I will get all the ancillaries cleaned up ready to go back on.
Clarkey

more pics
having the engine stand is a godsend...on another issue namely the woeful starter motor has anyone tried these bad boys https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/220
I think the starter will really struggle with the tight engine and I wanted to test it before putting it back in the car so was considering giving it a trial run on the engine stand and then I came across these uprated starter motors...Hmmmm...
Clarkey

I am a fan of originality......but I recently fitted one of their starters to my Proteus Jaguar C Type which has a tight high compression triple Weber (Italian, not Spanish) engine and starting has been transformed. The old original Lucas starter always struggled and this new one is lighter as well as giving a much faster turnover when starting. So recommended as long as you are not obsessed with originality.
Chris

It is like Apollo 13 out here miles from a B and Q...20 mile round trip to a supermarket...and 80 light years away from Planet Hartlepool where most of my tools and stuff reside...so we have to fix what breaks with what we have...
Cosmonaut Clarke

Just as well I sheared off that banjo as the water pipe was full of gunge...every cloud and all that....so after a couple of hours trying to get the broken stump out I gave up and moved on to torquing the big end caps and fitting the crankshaft oilway plugs.

Fitted the lock tab thingys and torqued up the bolts...was quite relieved to find the crank still rotated...so far so good...squirted some sealer on the plugs and screwed them in and nipped them up tight with an allen key..

I think the stump of the banjo bolt will either require a lot of patience or brute force. I have been using a 50/50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and cellulose thinners as a releasing agent with very satisfactory results.

heat!

Hi all
I had managed to cut 2 slots down the inside of the banjo with a padsaw blade and the two halves of the banjo are loose... so with a proper vise I think they will come out... that was after 3 hours and the carbon dioxide scrubber was still broken.....
Clarkey

Go to the stores and find a better one ??

I thought about that ..but then thought I would need to check the state inside the banjo...and like the Apollo 13 analogy it is a 4 hour round journey..so I will have to wait till next week as I have to see my legal people on the house purchase.
Clarkey

Bit more done today...sump is on and finally got the timing chain and sprockets back on late this afternoon...have an issue with the head studs as the set I have some are too long and one is too short so will need to get a new set. Nipped the head down and put the valve gear on to test the cam followers etc no graunching noises so more progress. I will have to wait for the replacement studs before I can set the timing and finish the rebuild.
Clarkey

more progress today sort of...Cleaned the exhaust manifold up a bit and popped it on...then tackled a job that has been waiting for a long time the thermostat. Tried to remove the housing before my hernia op Ouch! so feeling a lot more mobile and with the engine securely on the stand I tooled up.
Similar result to the inlet manifold banjo as the housing when it came out munched it's way through the thread in the cylinder head oh dear...

So we were left with the housing with the thread clogged up with aluminium from the cylinder head and the head missing a good bit of the thread. The task was then to clean up the thread of the housing and see if there were any bits of thread left in the head ...

Where did the thermostat go? Anyway I tried to clean out the thread on the housing to no avail so had to resort to chemical warfare and a good soak in a vinegar and salt dissolved the aluminium away. With a very sharp thin bladed pocket knife after I had stuck it into my finger just the one time I cleaned out the crusty stuff in what was left of the thread of the head....

And after a nice soak.

Off to get some bits from Hartlepool tomorrow so will be Wednesday before I will get back to this.
Clarkey

I`m amazed that you managed to get the thermostat out at all .... well done !

It might turn out the head is scrap if the housing will not screw back in...shame as it has been skimmed and all the valves ground in. We shall see
Clarkey

Had a quick test on screwing the housing back into the head and can report it went in down to about 2 threads so say 15mm in? this was by hand so I am thinking some non setting sealing compound round the threads and a new gasket/seal thingy and a gentlle nip up with the 36mm socket should see the job done...
Clarkey
ps it is raining and windy at the moment so will not be braving the tent just yet

Hi all
Hope you are all enjoying this lovely sunshine...I've been slaving over a 60 year old engine in the tent.
Got the thermostat back in the housing screwed well into the head so with the fibre washer and some sealer should be OK. seems to be a problem with these engines either overcooling or overheating plus broken thermostats.
Next job was to fit the circlip to the chain tensioner dowel but of course my ciclip pliers were 80 miles away so I modified a pair of longnosed pliers. Next job was to get all the block/head studs in and torque down the head...had a bit of an accident here as when I was taking off the head it slipped back down the studs and squashed my middle finger on my right hand ouch...Matron wanted to rush me to A & E but I was a brave soldier and carried on.

Next up was the head... so quickly torquing it down and replacing the valve gear revealed that all the valve clearances were miles out and a valve or 2 were interfering with the pistons as the engine now would not rotate...slackened all the tappet adjusting screws and thankfully the engine turns over again sounds like there is some compression anyway...Might get chance tomorrow to set the timing and replace the sprocket cover. I have no inlet manifold gasket so I just tried out the carb on the manifold.
bye for now Clarkey

some piccys
it is getting there

Hi all
because my finger now looks like a sausage I have abandoned the engine till the finger subsides a bit...I have instead stripped the boot lid ready to give it a coat of paint...

The number plate surround needs to be saved and the after market (Lucas) number plate light needs to be removed...

I also need to drill out a snapped off bolt that holds one of the hinges on....

Those original aluminium number plate surrounds are just lovely and so much better made than todays new
versions. Absolutely worth saving.
Chris

I may have to follow your lead and adopt working in a tent. A Y10 however is a bit larger than an engine.

Tents come in a variety of sizes Frank ....... the problem is finding the space in which to pitch it!!!  However, it is an excellent idea even if some of the car still sticks out in the rain!!!

I reckon you are going to lose the nail  ::)

Did you pierce the nail to remove the pressure?
Chris

Matron did discuss airlifting me to A& E for the old red hot paper clip job but sticking the hand/finger in some frozen peas and plenty of painkillers kept the swelling down enough to keep the pain from becoming unbearable. It has eased of alot and now just hurts if you knock it on something say a Y10..
Clarkey

bits and bobs done today that old black finger nail is still quite painful so we just did some simple jobs...connected the carburettor linkage up....fitted the starter motor....stripped down the heater tap thing this needs a new diaphragm....fitted the pipe from the back of the head to the inlet manifold...and put the air filter on...looking good. Will set the timing up tomorrow.
Clarkey

Had a good start with being able to drill out and retap one of the boot lid hinge retaining bolts...Got on with the timing but not easy as the timing chain tensioner kept locking up as I rotated the crank anyway we set up the valve clearance as per the spec rotated the crank till the gap was 0.03mm and the took off the cam sprocket bolt but how to get the dowel out...I noticed it had an internal thread so used a pc case thumbscrew to help get the dowel out...on to the exhaust valve same routine but I forgot to put the retaining bolt back in so the sprocket fell off the end of the camshaft Hmm.. it went back on and the camshaft had not moved ...however when we rotated the crank to no4 tdc the rotor arm was pointing at no1 piston so I reversed the distributor cap...Hmmm I might have to revisit all this. A major problem is there is no o mark on the flywheel so will have to have a think on this.

Fitted the oil pipe and a set of gauges from a S2/3 so I can check the oil pressure and possibly the temperature. I have a list of 16 things I need to hopefully finish this rebuild so might drive to the 'pool on Saturday to pick up some things.

As I had run out of parts for the engine rebuild I had a go at sanding down the boot lid...I can see why Ed China uses a 6" disc . The bit I managed to strip back revealed lots of little dents.
Clarkey

managed to get most of the bits and bobs I need so weather permitting I will have another go at the timing and finish putting the engine back together. I have a deadline of Wednesday as my marking starts on Thursday
Clarkey

Hi all
nearly there...I had another look at the timing and it seems my guestimate of tdc was OK...by taking the plugs out I could see piston no 4  as it moved up the bore and when it stopped I checked the position of the rotor arm and there it was opposite plug lead for no 4 piston. So put the sprocket cover back on and then took it off again as I was convinced the spacer was not on ...it was so put the cam cover on again. Next we replaced the diaphragm in the heater tap and screwed that back onto the head linking up with a bit of heater hose to the inlet manifold. The water pump and dynamo were refitted along with a fan belt. I have fitted a down pipe to the exhaust manifold and I will have to think of a way to link the water pump to the top hose if we are to have a little test run...

I see the dog's not taking any interest at all, or knows something you don't

I think he feels this job will take a lot longer than anyone thought it would ...... but then we all know that feeling!!!!

                 Andy

That dog is bone idle it only likes cars when it can go to sleep on the drivers seat...Anyway disaster of biblical proportions (not really) but the Fiat 500C failed it's MOT so spent all day hanging about the Fiat dealership as they put the Fiat back together.
Clarkey

I'm interested in the idea of starting the engine on the rebuilding stand. I always assumed it wouldn't be stable enough and torque reaction would make the whole lot topple over.

I think a frame/legs fastened to the engine mounts will help.

Sandbags over the base?

Bit more done today...had to dismantle and clean the contacts inside the ignition switch as it was showing disconnected across all the positions...then we had a little play at wiring the electrics up for the test run
Clarkey

Still mulling over the timing...may have to leave this till after the house move.
Clarkey

Meanwhile back in Hartlepool I decided to give my angle grinder something to do so set to on the wheel arches...one side had the spikiest underseal I have seen...chipping it off revealed the original green paint...pity whoever did it never saw fit to do any other parts of the car.
Clarkey

Hi all
little bit more done towards testing the engine...I raided B & Q's parts bins for a couple of pipe elbows and a reducer to be able to make a circuit for the cooling system I might fit the heater in as well to give us a bit more capacity. A trip to Driffield provided a +ve battery terminal so I could complete the starter wiring a quick test has the engine whizzing over nicely. I still need to wire up the temperature gauge, fill the sump with nice fresh oil, fill the radiator with some clean water and antifreeze, jury rig a fuel tank and we should be ready. I will recheck the timing before all this.
Clarkey

Can you do a youtube video as well ?? Looking forward to hearing/seeing it run !
Good luck

I will probably rope El Tel in to use his considerable bulk to hold the thing down if it starts so a video is possible...will probably be next week now as all the little fiddly bits I need are of course in the unit at Hartlepool

Sandbags over the stand legs?   Anything you could ratchet strap it to?

Possibly drape a couple of 3 x 2 paving stones over the engine stand bottom frame?

I would bolt it to the concrete floor.

Is there a garage you can wheel it into with a roof truss or RSJ to semi suspend it from?
Guy

Don used to start them sitting on the floor - it should be a smooth runner !!

man in a tent has got some oil pressure and wired the temperature gauge in but it gives fsd unless the case is earthed....oil pressure by the gauge is just over 35psi cranked rather slowly on the starter motor...checked for a spark and we have one...just the fuel and water now...no oil leaks as such so looking good. see before and after pics of oil pressure
Clarkey

Man in tent has abandoned tent for nice new garage

Will try to get the gearbox brought through later this week and connect it up to the engine ready to go back in the car

You'll need some big brackets if you are going to test run it on a bicycle.

Ha ha Frank, very good!
 Brian
8227

Hi all
good day yesterday as we got the car down to his new home...big thanks to Darren our wagon driver as he was simply the best in very scary conditions with the very high winds...
Clarkey

A fair bit of progress and a minor setback....see pictures for the progress...no man should be without an engine crane...I fitted the gearbox to the engine roped it up to the crane at a jaunty angle and a couple of hours later it was all back in place. the set back is with the brakes as the rear passenger cylinder has leaked and gummed up the drum making it impossible to push the car by my self. The older readers of this saga will recall I replaced the seals about 3 years ago but they have obviously deteriorated all by themselves without ever being used Hmmm...Hopefully the linings can be saved and we just need new seals in the cylinders or is it that the material the seals are made from are not up to the job. I used Dot 4 fluid could this have caused it? Be interested to hear if anyone else has had this problem as I think I will have to replace the whole lot. >:(
Slow but rough
bright spot I have a new neighbour who is building an Austin special and could not resist coming over to see what the Appia was  :D

Going......

Gone!

retry of last pic

Clarkey, this is a long running and detailed thread, I must do it all justice and read through from start, knowing how difficult and frustrating,how slow restoring a car can be, I take my hat off to you!

P

Progress indeed - start her up and take her for a drive tomorrow ?

Putting the engine/box in like that is quite scary, but works well - did you have to remove the engine mounts ?

Hi all
bit more done yesterday so just a few connections and linkages to connect along with the propshaft and an exhaust. The engine/gearbox went back in with the engine mountings on but we had a few issues with the engine crane being in the garage so I could not get the height on the hook end and the car was not high enough to give clearance underneath to allow the end of the gearbox to drop down at the right angle. So with a bit of cursing and leavering with bits of wood it all went in perhaps another pair of hands and eyes might have helped.
Clarkey

see pic

I have found that in the past. Pulling an engine out, gravity is with you. Putting an engine back in, gravity always seems to be against you.

Wise words Frank

Fun and games today...collected some bits and bobs from Hartlepool yesterday so decided to put the rear wheels on a pair of dollies...as you can see from the pic the Appia had other ideas and promptly whizzed down the drive jettisoned a dollie and came to a halt in the middle of the road...a push from a couple of the builders had the car back on the drive so I thought I'll get the handbrake to work . Checking the floods of fluid coming from the rear cylinder revealed a set of seals that looked OK but the bores of the wheel cylinder were rough and corroded so I guess the seals could not maintain good enough contact. Anyway after all the drama we have a working handbrake and to stop further leaks I clamped the rear flexi hose...the clutch and throttle are connected...all electrics are connected even managed a couple of turns on the key with the flat battery...pumped all the tyres up the hard way...feel that burn...put the battery on charge and it was getting dark so pushed the little beast back into the garage with the dollies under the front wheels.
Clarkey

You need to tie it up like you would a boat, and maybe hang some fenders.

At least you had the weather, and some handy "muscle" to push it back...

Frank suggested a winch bolted to the garage floor...I should listen to Frank more...Anyway today was frustrating as the exhaust system had a front pipe for a S2/3 so that went back in the garage and when I went to put the propshaft on one of the spiders was absent so I could only connect one end...However the battery had been on charge for at least 15 hours so I thought "Why not?"
The poor starter motor could not spin the engine fast enough to raise any oil pressure and started to get hot so we abandoned the attempt, however some petrol was drawn through so not a total failure. One of the builders offered to tow the little beast round the block with his JCB but as we only have the handbrake we know where that will end so I am looking to invest in a more powerful starter motor. Looks like we will have to wait till I get up to Hartlepool again and see if I can find the spider and a front pipe.
Clarkey

waiting for the new starter to arrive ...found the propshaft spider and an old front pipe of a smaller diameter so will have a go at putting them on over the next couple of days. I might have to whip the rear cylinders off and clean up the bores.
Clarkey
ps Matron said we have enough Appias about the place

No excuse now...

SNAFU developing with regard to the new starter....

Oh NO!!!!  That is unbelievable!!!!

Where now?

Basically it won't fit...when I got in touch with the manufacturer they admitted the ones they have sold went to Formula Junior applications not run of the mill Appias. To their credit they have offered to modify the starter motor to see if they can get a working solution. Hmm...
The pictures show the difference in size of the motors with the new one a lot more beefy than the original. One of the problems is the +ve pole that fouls on the crankcase and would short out. The other problem is the engine mounting will not go back on with the new motor in place.
Disgruntled of Scarborough

I would get a refund and stick with your standard starter. Just make sure the brushes are good and everything greased....(assuming the solenoid is doing its job)

I thought a series one appia had a cable operated starter?  At least my series one has that, and so it is depicted in the parts manual, but my appia is a very early one.

Hi all
My car has been fitted with a S2 engine and gearbox as the original engine had gone AWOL when I bought the car. The starter motor has been reconned by Don but they are known to be a bit lacking and can burn out the bridge if you give them too much stick.I will see what the starter motor company come up with they seem keen to sort it all out.
Clarkey

update
have been persevering with the old starter and a slightly bigger battery filched from the Y10...suffice to say there was a few kicks as it tried to start with a whiff of Bradex down the carb so we will charge the battery back up and give it another go
Clarkey

Tried with the recharged battery but just a few snuffles and a very hot starter...so fresh petrol? drained the tank and will try again tomorrow
Clarkey

A little bird tells me a prototype starter is wending it's way to sunny Scarborough
watch this space!

...and if that doesn't work use that starter motor to convert the Y10 to full electric.

Hi all
no progress to date have chased up both Cavalitto and Wosp performance regarding exhausts and starter motors so will have to be patient. I did notice a audible improvement when spinning the engine over without the plugs in as the oil pressure got up and circulated but the starter gets too warm for my liking so will either try towing the little beast or wait and see on the new starter motor. My mate Terry  (we will be using his great big Merc as tow truck) is away till 15th December so it might be in the New Year...however I know where there is a little Y10 that has started to behave itself shame it is a 4 hr round trip.
Clarkey

Parcel arriving tomorrow....

Any progress on the Starter issue?.......am interested as it is Appia related, but also ,I think my S2 starter is a bit feeble!.

Ian

Have you looked at the starter. You may find the brushes are on their last legs and / or the commutator clogged up. Even an "overhauled unit" needs checking....

I cannot believe Lancia fit feeble starter motors!

Starter motors
The starter motor on my car is an overhauled one supplied by Don Cross so it is as good as it gets...I am looking to have a reliable car so the original starter is a place to start as it is not known for it's oomph so a modern more powerful replacement is being worked on. As soon as I have any news I will share it with the forum and Appia Consortium members.
Clarkey

Happy New Year to all
Not much done of late as my dear old Mum who has been ill for some time has passed away so it will be a few weeks till everything is sorted...however did manage to keep the starter motor project on track as I sent a crankcase, bellhousing and engine mounting down to Wosp followed by the prototype starter so we will hopefully have some news before the end of the month.
Clarkey
piccy is from near Hartlepool where the old flood defences have been updated and new lagoons have been created so this tree finds itself in a tough place as the water will be brackish.

Mystery parcel is on it's way from the starter motor people...watch this space
Clarkey

Here it is...looks just like the last one Doh!

Great news!!! it fits...still had to remove the engine mounting but about an hour in a freezing cold garage saw the new motor installed and connected up and the engine mounting back on. Quick connect up of the battery and off it went sounds about 5 times faster than the old one so a charge up of the battery a gallon of fuel and we will see what occurs
Clarkey

Oops

And a close up

Very interested in an improved starter motor. Are high torque and gear reduction starter motors the same thing? How does the claim of faster turning with less current work? Not expensive either.

Reading the bumph it seems to be down to more modern conducting materials used in the construction...I was pleasantly surprised at the improvement also the engine was stone cold and it had not been turned over for weeks... the plugs were out but the oil would have drained back into the sump and the bores would be dry... I will try some molyslip down the bores before I try to start it up. In addition I will put some gearbox oil in.
Clarkey

Richard
The High Torque and Gear Reduction starter motors are one and the same. We use them on all our high compression race engines as they spin over much faster and take less current which is essential on cars with no charging systems. The higher torque  ( turning Effort) is achieved by gear reduction of the motor, either by planetary as in an automatic gearbox or gears in mesh as in a conventional gearbox. Simply put, it`s like using a long bar to loosen wheel nuts, which requires less effort and therefore less current which is electrical effort.
I hope I haven`t over complicated it.

John

I have had one on my flaminia for a long time and it grate

Dave

Castrol Classic EP90 for the gearbox?

ST90?  EP attacks the brass bits inside Lancia gearboxs IIRC.

Hi Lancialulu
Confusion reigns this is from the workshop manual
Clarkey

and this is from a S3 user manual

EP90 seems ok then. At least it is readily available. From an online article GL4 spec seems to be the oil for Brass Syncronisers
https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

That must be the one then as there is GL4 and GL5 oils I will get a couple of litres tomorrow. It seems GL5 oils strip the brass off the synchro rings as the additives create a stickier sacrificial layer that pulls off more of the brass than GL4 oils.
CASTROL EP90
                               
Extreme pressure multi-purpose gear oil for hypoid and non hypoid applications where specified by the manufacturer.
API GL-4     



Update on the starter motor
Charged the battery
Fresh gallon of petrol
It whizzed over making lots of popping sounds (no exhaust apart from the manifold) and fired once...
Took the plugs out they were bone dry however plug 4 looked like it had fired as it was light brown.
I shall have to try with the Bradex if I can get an assistant (my mate Terry) or rig up a lead to run the starter
So it is nearly there...battery back on charge so will have another go tomorrow after I have thawed out.
Clarkey
Clarkey

Sounds like progress - I'd just pour some neat petrol down the carb and press the button. I often start mine like this if it's been standing for a while (after getting some oil around first). If everything is as it should be, it will run without an exhaust

Hopefully once you've got it running for a few seconds it will suck up enough fuel to keep running

Dear Doctor
I'm a bit concerned about what is coming out of my tank can you advise I have sent a picture to show you...can you please tell me if it is anything serious.
Clarkey

From left to right the fuel pump eventually got some more normal petrol through...anyway after about 2 hours adjusting the throttle linkage to stop it fouling the gearchange we were ready to try starting the engine again. Armed with a fully charged battery and a can of Bradex of we went I thought the damn thing was going to start but it started to sulk again after some much more encouraging noises of more than one cylinder firing up. Might have to rig up the lead so I can start it from under the bonnet as the Bradex went all over the garage. Also when you push the clutch in you move the throttle as well...neat. Not convinced about the cold starting device on the ebay carburettor I have might swap it back for the original...All in all I am very encouraged but cream crackered
Clarkey

Absolutely sure that ignition and valve timings are spot on? Andrea

something must be wrong ???,as it shouldn't need to use a full battery to start it, even more so using easy start ,if you are 100% sure that the valve timing is spot on, then I would be looking to check ignition timing is correct, I would rather use petrol down the carb, than use Easy start, less harsh. good luck

I am in agreement with everyone else, if ignition, valve timing and firing order are correct, and you have fuel, there is no reason an engine shouldn`t start straight away. Normally after cranking up oil pressure with plugs removed, the carb should be primed and ready to go. Refit plugs and away you go. You might have to check basics like compression on all cylinders, valve clearances correct etc. Have you checked the accelerator jet is pumping out fuel? If you`re not sure the cold start mechanism is working just put your hand or some card over the carb inlet as a choke. Also I wouldn`t advocate the use of Bradex etc. Believe it or not engines do get addicted to it and then won`t start without it if used continually.

Good Luck!

One step forward about 4 back! managed to fill the gearbox with oil with a handy gadget from Eurocar spares for a reasonable £9.62. Now I could spin the engine without keeping foot on the clutch I decided to check the compressions. Oh dear all were reading 50 psi...50psi??? all of them??? so what is going on. My neighbours father in law who is Polish had a look as we pondered the engine with the rocker covers off he seemed to think too many of the tappets were loose so valve timing or ignition timing? But that still brings us back to 50psi not the 125psi my Polish mechanic friend agreed with me should be the reading.
Clarkey

It is low (50psi) but you have a very cold engine...Also did you crank with throttle open? With others I suspect you need to go back to the beginning and check everything...

Hi all
I cranked the engine with the throttle closed. I can try again tomorrow with the throttle wide open.
Reading the repair manual I think it will be the valve timing it seems like the pistons and the valve opening and shutting is out of sync hence the 50psi
Clarkey

When setting the valve timing you have to take care because the pressure of the valve springs on the cam will move the camshaft.

You think that you have them both in the correct position and then as you remove the tool that turns/sets the cam, the cam moves and you don't always notice it ......

I got round this by slackening all the tappets as far as they would go (ie effectively out of the rocker), repositioning the cam, fitting the peg VERY carefully and tightening everything

Once done, set the gaps correctly and then turn the engine over checking the sequence, ie firing on 1 - both valves closed, rotate engine until  No.3 is at TDC and both valves closed etc etc

If you have followed the gapping in workshop manual , all should be well. Whilst you are at it , check the position of the rotor arm at each firing point

Sorry grandmother, I thought you'd put your teeth in

Hi Simon
Thanks for the tip on slackening all the tappets off...weather looks good for tomorrow so I think I have a timing chain cover gasket so will give it a go. First I will have to get No 1 piston to TDC I will have to use a jury rigged clock gauge as the flywheel has no marks stamped onto it. There is no water in the rad so will be not too messy.
Clarkey

Of mice and men...on closer observation we seem to have both valves open at the same time on some of the pistons or if that is not happened both valves closed on at least two cylinders...so I decided to do the valve timing again got off to a good start as the access with the grill and radiator out is very good until it came to undoing the crankshaft pulley nut...luckily I thought as the S1 has a nice hole in line with the pulley for the starter handle it would soon be off even in gear chocked and handbrake on no joy. Just need a bigger lever! had to come in for refreshments and to thaw out it is still plenty cold.
Clarkey

Check out the access through the starter handle hole...

No luck getting the crankshaft pulley nut off with the car in gear, handbrake on and the wheels chocked it still managed to inch its way along when I try to unscrew the nut. Will take the starter out and see if I can jam the ring gear  :)

You will have both valves open at the same time if it has just exhausted the spent gas. I know nothing about Appia engines but general rules apply. Put No. 1 piston to TDC and both valves will be either fully closed ( with the correct clearance) or both rocking,ie. exhaust valve about to close and inlet valve about to open. If both are closed you can make sure the rotor arm is pointing to No.1 and the ignition timing will be there abouts, and carry on in order of firing. That`s assuming correct valve timing of course.  Apologies for preaching to the converted!

I have loosened tight pulley nuts in the past by resting the spanner on the chassis or a block of wood and operating the starter! ( spark plugs removed)

Do you have, or can you get, an impact wrench to the Crank shaft nut?

Thanks for the tips on the tight crank nut and valve openings... It is very tight between the chassis and the front of the crank pulley too tight even to get a socket in with a right angle pull on it. I don't have a spanner that would fit so I can't try the starter motor trick! I thought the starter handle hole a godsend but on my own I can't stop the car moving when I turn the crank as the gearbox, propshaft, doughnuts and halfshafts all wind up a little like a big spring so I think a wedge of some sort to wedge the flywheel will do it. I think when I removed it the sump was off and I could lock the crankshaft with a block of wood. I can have a look at the valve openings and rotor position tomorrow the plan was a quick bish bosh and the valve timing would of been checked/adjusted and on we would go but we got bogged down trying to get the crank pulley off to remove the timing chain cover. I had slackened all the valve clearances right off as per Simon's tips but it still seemed to me that the valves were open at the wrong times and thinking back I was concerned how far out the tappet clearances were when I set  up the timing last year. An observation I made was that cylinder No 4 had been firing as the plug was a bit sooty but the other three are still pristine and unmarked.
Clarkey

The word is put the car in gear handbrake on and someone to jam the brakes on...so today  I changed both the rear cylinders and will bleed the brakes tomorrow...

Hi all
Well we bled the brakes...the provision of the plunger on the fluid reservoir is a Godsend...and tried again but the transmission etc just winds up like a spring so we will have to have another think. I did check the TDC and the position of the rotor arm for all 4 cylinders seemed OK so I reset the tappets and gave it a spin probably my imagination but it seemed better and we got some heat in the block so something is going on in there. Still concerned about the colour of the petrol (now black) so I will drain the tank and put some fresh petrol in.
Clarkey

Repeating from a previous post  - do try an impact driver if you can borrow one, those operated by compressed air are very effective and as they work by rapidly repeated short sharp shocks, the problem of locking the engine hardly arises as the inertial mass of the crank and flywheel will be enough to resist turning. The fact that one can hold the impact tool by hand without having an arm twisted off or rotating like a ballet dancer shows how little torque is involved!

I had a very well seized aluminium gearbox filler plug to remove on a 20hp Rolls Royce to which I dared not apply huge force in fear of breaking the hexagon from the flange and thread. I used an impact driver and found it very controllable by pressure on the trigger so you can apply just enough whacker to move it. The plug came out very easily, quite unmarked.

Royce used aluminium washers on these and other plugs and they do seem to seize. A red fibre replacement solved that.

Mike

A trick I used successfully on a Dedra automatic a year or two back is to turn the engine to have a piston halfway up on its compression stroke and then feed a longish length of nylon string into the plug hole.Further turning of the engine compresses the string and locks the engine very effectively without causing any damage.

Ingenious!

Hi all.
Decided to bypass the petrol tank by clamping off the feed from the tank and putting a length of fuel pipe from the pump inlet side to a container of nice clean fresh petrol, put some new plugs in and rigged up an under bonnet starter button...no it didn't start! lots of bangs and pops but with my hand over the top of the carb I could feel back pressure and petrol vapour is coming out of the carb i.e. it is going the wrong way...checked the plugs 2 and 4 are sooty so firing but 1 and 3 are clean. So I have to decide to...

A. drain the sump, jam the crankshaft and get the crank pulley nut of and reset the timing that way
or
B. take the engine out and get the engine on a stand and do the timing that way
or
C. Thrash the damn thing with a stick!
Clarkey
ps I think I have got hypothermia today  :'(

The piccies show clearly the difference between 2 and 4 compared to 1 and 3

Surely you do not have to undo the crankshaft nut just to CHECK the valve timing.

With the rocker cover removed you can see what the valves are doing and using a rod(with a nicely rounded end so as not to cause any damage) down a plug hole you can detect where the piston is.

You only need to check for whichever cylinder is most convenient as they are either all right or all wrong!

Admittedly from the behaviour you describe they are all wrong! Probably 180 degrees out.

And why ignore the option with the nylon string to lock the engine and undo the crank nut.   It really does work!  And front cylinder would be favourite. ie nearest the nut.

Compression good? Does the flywheel have TDC mark? Could the distributor be around the opposite way?

I might check the compression again as it was only 50psi last time I checked. There is no mark that I could find on the flywheel so perhaps when I set up what I thought was TDC for cylinder 1 this is incorrect. If it is 180 degrees out perhaps that is the problem....My brain hurts...

Just a thought the flywheel is from a S3 but the rest of the engine is a S2...

Regarding beating it with a stick, I believe a small sapling is the approved weapon (or is that only for Austin 1300's?).

I had a similar problem  I rebuild an engine and it would not start I swopped a flywheel
from another engine. The mistake I made was not to check the TDC of number one piston
was where the  0 was on the flywheel which it was not. It also possible to get the flywheel  in a number of positions
on the crankshaft. It's worth checking TDC with a dial gauge. 

 The best method of timing the engine on is on page 01/5 of the Appia workshop manual  ;D

 

Thanks Will the TDC is a problem I have put a pencil in No1 sparkplug hole with the plug out and turned the engine by hand and tried to gauge when the pencil stops moving up any more...I then used that as a TDC and reset the ignition timing with a meter across the points and it was well out so adjusted it and tried to start it and I thought it was going to go but no joy in the end. So will have another look on Monday...
Clarkey

How about setting a few degrees before top dead centre?

Unfortunately you are never going to get an accurate TDC without a dial gauge on top of the piston and a 360 degree protractor fixed to the crank pulley and a pointer fixed to the timing chain cover. However you can get a rough TDC with a pencil/ wooden dowel, but you have to come up to TDC, mark the pulley and cover, then go past TDC and come back up backwards, mark again and then average the 2 marks to get an approximate TDC.
You then get an approximation of the valve timing by viewing the pulley as a clock. From TDC ( With both valves rocking)turn in the direction of rotation,  and at about 18 minutes past, the inlet valve should be fully open. Carry on turning and the inlet valve should be closed around 38 minutes past.Carry on turning past TDC ( Now on firing stroke) and around 22 minutes past, the exhaust valve should start to open, continue up towards TDC and the exhaust starts to close around 7 minutes to. This only a rough guide but you should know if the valve timing is about correct or badly wrong. According to your photos of the spark plugs you have a compression/ suction problem because 2 of them don`t seem to be getting any fuel and that is not an ignition timing problem.
You need to do another compression test with a wide open throttle, fully charged battery and crank the engine the same number of turns on each cylinder. I find counting up to eight usually enough time to get a reading.
Sorry to preach to the converted.

Thanks for the advice on the TDC problem will give it a go tomorrow...in the meantime I tried a carb change as the one on the  car is a chinese copy from ebay. I thought the car was going to start on Friday but the next time I tried not a chance the same again today. So back to basics was there a spark at the plugs? Actually there wasn't !!! check from the coil big fat sparks up my arm so took the dizzy cap off and where is the carbon brush? Hmmm I did remove a small spring out of the dizzy that I thought had fallen in we now know where from...
So we need another distributor cap
Check the TDC and  valve timing as per Jaydubs excellent advice
charge the battery up
get the prayer mat out out
Clarkey

Hi all
Finally got my act together and got the engine out so I can see what on earth is going on. I have always had doubts about getting the engine out on its own and so it proved as it just jammed against the suspension axle and would not disengage from the gearbox input shaft. This meant I had to take the propshaft off to move the gearbox back far enough to let the engine come up without jamming.
Clarkey

there's more...just need to get TDC set and we are away...

Have ordered a dial gauge and a timing disc with 360 degrees marked on it so watch this space
Clarkey

The new toys have arrived...

Looking good! That`s what you need.

Got a wiggle on today...the cranknut that proved impossible to loosen in the car just about fell off after I locked the engine with a screwdriver into the clutch cover mental note for future reference...plonked the engine over the empty engine bay with a couple of bits of timber...whipped the chain cover off and then set up the dial gauge...
...

there's more

The last picture shows where I have estimated TDC to be I did it twice to make sure and will check again in the morning. I marked the flywheel tooth with a centre punch and interestingly the red painted tooth next to it is where I had guesstimated it to be before..as each tooth is worth 3 degrees of rotation it will be easy to compound this error through the process of  unlocking the camshafts etc. This time I will be able to check it with the circular gauge.
Clarkey
ps sorry about the awful pics done on the old phone camera thing

Clarkey, sorry to be a party pooper on your work so far, but I don`t see the protractor attached to the front of the crankshaft in the photo with the DTI (dial gauge) and you cannot get an accurate TDC position without it.

It`s not good enough to just turn the engine over until  the gauge stops moving and assume that is TDC because there is a dead spot at TDC & BDC where you can rock the crank backwards & forwards a few dgrees without the piston moving. So your timing can be quite a few degrees out either way.
You need to fit the protractor, make a pointer out of stiff wire and fix with a bolt/stud to the engine. Turn the engine to highest point according to the DTI, zero the pointer to the protractor as your datum point.
Turn the engine backwards 50 thou on your DTI and note the reading eg 8 degrees. Turn it forwards 50 thou to your starting point and then a further 50 thou and note the reading eg 12 degrees. Add the readings together,
in this example that will be 20 degrees, divide by 2=10 degrees. Bend the pointer from the 12 degree mark to 10 degrees, turn the engine backwards at least 150 thou and then come up slowly until the DTI reads zero at the same time the pointer should read 0 degrees on the protractor. That will give you an accurate TDC position. You may have to do this a couple of times altering the pointer slightly each time until you achieve the zero readings. Until you do that you could be a tooth out on your flywheel marks etc.
PS. I don`t wish to sound like a know it all because I am not, particularly Lancias like a lot of my fellow members, but trying to help by passing on knowledge gained over 55 years in racing/restoration.
Hope I have explained it OK, and not teaching grandma to suck eggs.
Good Luck!

Ooops I thought we needed the protractor to test it with... just done it my way and was about to check it with the protractor thing so I'll stick the protractor on and do it again...thanks for the wise words I had wondered about that slack zone at the top of the stroke as the cams etc are still rotating even though the piston has stopped moving. I still can't tell if the camshafts move when you do the exhaust cam bit as you undo the sprocket bolt and rotate the inlet cam sprocket and trust it stays in place same for the exhaust cam. only thing I noticed was the dowels seemed to find a position better than last time but the sprockets still managed to slip off so probably not a bad plan to do it again. Thanks Jaydub
Clarkey

Hi all
Followed the procedure again and this time I managed to stop the sprockets from falling off so progress. Tried checking the firing order/valve sequence and if I do 1-3-4-2 I can get the rotor arm in the right position with both valves for each cylinder closed so should start...seems I was here before last year when I put the engine together. I have tried following the valve open shut sequence but it seems all to pot so I might put the protractor on the flywheel so I can turn the engine from the front. I think I need to get my mate Terry over to give me another pair of eyes on what is going on.
Clarkey

Had a think and decided to check each valve starting to open based on the info in the repair guide so inlet opens at 15 deg BTDC etc...with this method I could feel the tappet clearance close down the nearer you got to the setting so I checked all 8 valves for opening and they seem to do it where they should be so I'll put it all back together and test it out tomorrow.
Clarkey

My marking has got in the way of this as I know if I start messing about and it starts I will want it back in the car and then...and then...and then...it will be the middle of September! and no marking done.
Clarkey

At last a bit of time to mess about with old Lancias...My mate Terry came over so we started the process off by checking the compressions and they revealed a miserable 35 to 50psi so we started from scratch and checked the TDC with the dial gauge and vernier disc thing and proceeded to set up the valve timing. We checked the compressions again and they were just the same so head scratch time...I had a brain wave and put some engine oil down the bores and the psi range went up to 85-100psi so the valve timing seems to be there or thereabouts. i have invested in a new battery as the old one is of an unknown vintage and will give it another go with some more healthy voltage.
Clarkey

In between cursing Appia engines I decided to have a go at fixing the boot lid lock. My S1 has no push button lock on the boot lid but instead has a rather cool remote release lever on the back parcel shelf connected by a cable to the lock. The cable had snapped at the lever end so a trip to Halfords scored a stainless steel gear cable and some electrical connectors. After about 20 minutes we had a working boot lock that can now be released from the lever on the parcel shelf. see piccies
Clarkey

Hi Jaydub
Me and Terry discussed the ring gaps and valve seats etc but we did not have a new head gasket handy so were reluctant to take the head off. I think we will give the new battery a go then if that is no good we shall take the head off and check the bores/rings when I can get up to Hartlepool for the new gaskets etc.
The possibilities are the ring gaps aren't  correctly spaced...all 4 pistons?
The rebore/piston/rings are not the right sizes so will need to measure the ring gap according to the repair manual it is between 0.25mm to 0.4mm and the groove clearance is 0.055 to 0.082mm
Clarkey

Yes all 4 piston ring gaps could be too big if the cylinders were honed and you have old pistons. Depending on the machine shop`s thoroughness, the cylinders could be barrel shaped. Measure the gaps down the bores where the rings will run and keep each set to the bore you measured it in. Swap them around if they vary, to get the correct gaps in a particular bore if possible. Sometimes the machining can vary, so therefore so do the gaps.

Terry got quite excited as he thought it was going to start at one point but it was not to be so we gave up. I will take the head off and do the old parafin test on the valves and the bores. An observation was the head gasket appeared unmarked and had had not been squashed down...the head has been skimmed so have the domed nuts bottomed out on the top of the studs rather than tightening down the head... the parafin test will tell us more.
Clarkey

Hi all
After the car had been exposed to a rain shower during the engine fiasco it became apparent the roof needed some urgent attention as the rust that had been slumbering for the last 20 years or so burst into action with a vengeance. So we powered up the compressor and with various sanding and grinding devices I got as much of the loose rust and paint off and gave it a coat of rust inhibitor primer followed by some very badly applied topcoat in Volkswagen 'Candy White'. I was considering changing the colour so this was an opportunity to see what it would look like. I have to admit spraying large panels with aerosol paint inside a smallish garage is a recipe for disaster. In addition at £6 a pop it is an expensive way to do it. Still we have settled the future colour scheme. In amongst all this in and out of the garage the front brakes driver side have let go and there is brake fluid all over the wheel and tyre so the next job is the brakes (Again!) as it is handy being able to stop the car on the footbrake as my driveway has a slope on it. I hope to get back to the engine later this week.
Clarkey

The camera can lie as it looks like my spray work is OK it isn't...I had purchased a new boot seal from Elvezzio but it is so thick it is preventing the boot lid from shutting! One step forward....
Clarkey

[quote
Terry got quite excited as he thought it was going to start a01]t one point but it was not to be so we gave up. I will take the head off and do the old parafin test on the valves and the bores. An observation was the head gasket appeared unmarked and had had not been squashed down...the head has been skimmed so have the domed nuts bottomed out on the top of the studs rather than tightening down the head... the parafin test will tell us more.
Clarkey

That is a possibility, although the compressions increased when you put oil in the bores, so that would discount a loose head. To check, get a new gasket and measure the thickness of the fire ring on both and compare . Refit the cylinder head with the gasket you have just used, put some thick washers under the nuts, retorque, remove head and remeasure gasket thickness to see if it has reduced in thickness. Alternatively use normal good quality Hex nuts instead of the washers.
Good luck.

Hi all
Today was the paraffin test so I filled the combustion chambers on the head and covered the tops of the pistons with paraffin see pics they have the time on so when we look at the later pics we can see how much has drained out...

and a bit later...

and later still...

and even later...

the sharp eyed among you will have noticed cylinders 1 and 3 are losing paraffin by 18.41...by  19.04 1 and 3 are empty 2 and 4 still have some paraffin in this might be because unequal amounts of paraffin were put in each cylinder. I might have to try something a bit more scientific tomorrow. The head seems fine
Clarkey

Another possible problem was the lack of squashing down on the head gasket so I took Jaydub's advice and measured the fire rings of the used head gasket against a new one see pics The lack of squash can be seen in the last two pics
Clarkey

final pictures from earlier this morning cylinder 2 is still going strong and the valves in the head seem OK. So some good news regarding the valve seats but bad news regarding the bores/pistons/rings on 3 of the cylinders. Will get the sump off and get the pistons out next.
Clarkey

I think it is an unfair test on an engine that has not run and bedded in..... Did you not rebore (or at least honed the bores). If anything it shows the ring gap on #2 is too tight??!!

I think there is something odd here because 4 stroke engines will often run even if they are absolutely clapped out. The bores look OK and the rings must be reasonable so either the valves aren't seating or you have a timing issue. Very easy to diagnose at a distance but it all seems a bit odd.
Chris

Hi all
The block was rebored (allegedly) and the pistons have new rings. the vale seats were all lapped in. Further back in the thread the psi on the cylinders were 30-50 psi dry this went up to 85-100psi with engine oil in the bores. The valve timing will be an issue but the oiled bores psi readings are a clue something is wrong with the pistons/rings/bores.
Exasperated of Scarborough

Following on from Chris's point I think the test with an Austin 7 for piston to bore wear is how much daylight :)

Just went back in the thread - copied below.  Was March 1st the last time you got a pop or bang out of it?  Could you post a "one message" summary of the facts since? 

01 March, 2019, 03:12:30 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Hi all.
Decided to bypass the petrol tank by clamping off the feed from the tank and putting a length of fuel pipe from the pump inlet side to a container of nice clean fresh petrol, put some new plugs in and rigged up an under bonnet starter button...no it didn't start! lots of bangs and pops but with my hand over the top of the carb I could feel back pressure and petrol vapour is coming out of the carb i.e. it is going the wrong way...checked the plugs 2 and 4 are sooty so firing but 1 and 3 are clean. So I have to decide to...

A. drain the sump, jam the crankshaft and get the crank pulley nut of and reset the timing that way
or
B. take the engine out and get the engine on a stand and do the timing that way
or
C. Thrash the damn thing with a stick!

update
1 broken piston ring, others stuck in groove see pics...back to square one this is uncannily like the first time I took the pistons out...I think the engine block is cursed!!!
Sick as a chip Clarkey

Any scoring of the bores?
Brian
8227  8)

As Chris said, something strange going on there.
 I am baffled by your comment about boring etc.  Earlier in this thread you said your original block was worn and needed reboring but your spare only needed honing so you were going to use that, but then you said you had one of them bored, old pistons and new rings. Which is it? How can you bore a block and use old pistons unless it`s specifically bored and honed to suit the old pistons.
You don`t know what the piston/bore clearance is. You don`t know what the ring gaps are. You don`t know if the pistons were liberally coated with oil/ graphogen when the machine shop fitted them do you. The first few seconds of an engine starting from a new assembly is critical so that the pistons don`t pick up in the bores and the rings don`t scuff in a dry cylinder. You have been cranking it over for a long time with fuel washing the bores. It`s no wonder something has gone wrong. I don`t wish to be disrespectful but you seem to be stumbling from one crisis to another ( non starting, Valve timing etc) It would have been more cost effective timewise, parts, gaskets etc  to have got a professional to assemble it don`t you think. I know we all have to learn but it`s becoming a problem to you. We are all trying to help but it`s difficult not knowing if the basics are right.
Never the less, good luck, and I will continue to offer any advice if I can.

Hi all
For clarity the block was rebored, the pistons cleaned and checked, the new piston rings were fitted and the pistons fitted to the block all by the same engineering shop. All I did was put the crank in and lap the valves in, unfortunately it has never really shown any sign of starting and the compressions are low so I took it apart and found a broken ring and the others stuck in the grooves. The machine shop was a well established company but examining the pistons today the rings seem very tight in the grooves so it looks like a new set of matching pistons and rings are needed.
 I am going to lie down in a darkened room for a week and when I surface the elves will have fixed it and the engine will be back in the car. Anyway in the real world I had to deal with the gouts of brake fluid all over the front wheel and the garage floor so I took the drum off and it was a mess so I probably need at least one new cylinder and possibly some new shoes.
Clarkey

Hi Clarkey, hopefully you should get some redress off the machine shop as it seems they didn`t fit the correct rings  or measure the clearance in the grooves before fitting.

Hi Jaydub
The consortium has some piston ring gauges so I will check the rings against them and also check the ring clearance in the piston grooves and then probably chase up the machine shop. If I am lucky we might have a set of new rings that will fit failing that I will have to get some new pistons to the correct oversize. The pistons I used came from a running engine but the rings were replaced by the machine shop with a new set I supplied.
Clarkey

Hi all
Did a bit of checking with the piston ring gauges we have and it seems that the rings are tight in the gauge but loose in the bore (68.4 mm)...The ring gap in the bore is outside the assembly setting but tight in the gauge indicating it would need a bit grinding off the end but that would make the gap even larger in the bore...I can't really measure the bores apart from at the top. At first glance it looks like the bores are too big. I will clean out the grooves and measure the groove gap against the piston ring next. The pictures show the difference visible to the eye.
Clarkey

Bit better news on the brakes...my son's had bought me a cordless dremmel gizmo so using a felt tip with some fine compound I cleaned up the crusty bores of the wheel cylinders and put it all back together and bled the brakes...no leaks yet!
Clarkey

Off to the machine shop tomorrow to see if we can get this engine sorted out. I have a spare block so if the original is goosed we can try the spare...

It is all very tight in there!

Visited the new machine shop where the bores were checked and to my surprise they were exactly as they should be at 68.4mm....However the machine shop man was not impressed with the piston rings describing them as having a finish like a 'Thruppennybit' so we concluded the rings were the problem. So we decided to have the bores honed a little bit and some new rings sourced and start all over again with the existing pistons as machine shop man declared them OK and good quality.
Clarkey

Hi all
A week of the Lurgy has hindered any progress till now but with the aid of my mate Terry we resumed the battle with the V4. The machine shop man took 'a couple of thou' off the crankshaft and we set too reassembling the engine. I was greatly relieved to get the crank in and find it now spun much more easily than the earlier attempt so far so good even with the bearing carriers tightened up.
...With the crank in we started fitting the pistons but the ring compressor was not up to the angle of the V and was letting the ring slip out before it entered the block so we resorted to squeezing the rings into the groove and gently tapping the piston in. After 3 pistons were in we only had to connect the con rod up to the crank for piston No1 and we were done...I said to Terry 'what is that bit of metal next to the piston?' Terry said 'looks like the tip off the screwdriver' but it wasn't was it...no it was a bit of piston ring.
Some how a bit had broken off and luckily for us had just dropped onto the surface of the block so I took the piston out and sure enough the second ring had a missing bit that matched our 'Lucky Find'
The good news was we had found this before we had put the engine back together so I was not too despondent (Terry was!) and I was really chuffed with the crankshaft as the 3 pistons would turn over by hand so easily compared to before. So before Terry went home we fitted the flywheel and bolted the half engine to the engine stand as it was starting to get a bit heavy and unwieldy.
The pictures show the crank and pistons after having a bath in my until now cleaner thing and a shot of the broken ring.
Clarkey

Hi Clarkey, When I rebuilt a Type 300 Mercedes engine, which has a much steeper angled blocked and a combustion chamber scalloped out on one side, it was a challenge to compress the rings. I found an oil filter canister of almost the same diameter as the piston, cut it open, cut one side shorter to accommodate the shape of the scallop on the opposite side, wrapped it around the piston and used a Jubilee clip to compress the rings. It worked a treat. Any can or piece of tin will do it. Might be worth a try.
Good Luck.

Dont want to say this but you may have damaged other rings on the other pistons by this makeshift assembly process. If you have no compressor it is just agony using finger tips and loads of oil but you feel the rings in not tap them....

Here is the ring clamp I made to fit this very unusual block/combustion chamber. You could something similar out of any correct /oversize can. Anything is better than your method which you have proved is bad practice, and has cost more time. No disrespect intended.

Hi all
Thanks for the wise words and advice...no progress since Friday as we have been visiting family and house hunting...also did myself a mischief as I sneezed and put my back out!!! so no cold draughty garages this week.
Clarkey

Will have a go over the next couple of days to get the engine back together as the purgatory of Xmas is upon us and Matron won't like me lurking in the garage on Xmas day.
Humbug Clarkey

Hi all
From a cold garage in North Yorkshire...replaced the broken ring and fitted the piston managed to squeeze the rings in by hand so no need for a custom made ring compressor. Glad to report crank and pistons turn over a lot more easily than last time so progress. We will see what tomorrow brings.
Clarkey

A picture tells a thousand words...

Had a slight hiccup putting the sump back on as one of the bolts sheared...a job for when the engine is all back together I think...

More death and destruction of 60+ year old Italian engine parts...When screwing one of the studs into the block I noticed it went in further than the others hmmm...anyway it locked into place so I got the head on and it was a fair few threads short where it poked through the head so I chanced my arm as they say and just used an ordinary nut without a washer. So far so good. Got the old torque wrenches out and set too following the pattern and settings as per the repair manual...We all know what happened next it tightened up a bit like all it's little friends but then decided it didn't like being part of this old engine and wanted to get out so it went slack and that was that. Question is dare I try to get the engine running and fix this later? or do I take the head off and helicoil it now? Problem is we might be moving house within a week or so and I will have to have the engine and gearbox back in the car to move it!!!! AGGGHHHHH!!!!
So to any one who has done the helicoil thing on an Appia block words of advice most appreciated. The culprit is stud no 6 all the others have tightened up to the correct torque with no problems. I'm guessing but the thread is M8 x 1.25
Sick as a chip from Scarborough

I had a similar problem with my Lambda, having to Helicoil a few stud holes. I had to hire a magnetic drill in order to be sure the threads were straight. I subsequently found adverts on the Internet for such drills, not a lot more expensive than the cost of hiring one. If I ever have to do a similar job, I'll buy a magnetic drill. By the way, I would not even consider running the engine before putting the stud in properly.

I'd sort it now if you can because if my experience is anything to go by you'll have no Lancia time for ages after you have moved house. :(

Like John I'd not run it until the stud is sorted as you might ruin the gasket or have some other nasty.

Mike

Thanks for the wise words... I was going to offer the damn thing to a local fisherman as an anchor for his boat but I've calmed down and ordered a helicoil kit so will be back on the tools over the weekend...agree about no Lancia time after the move so will try and get the little beast up and running before it goes on the back of a trailer. Being positive it is better the problem happened now and better than when the engine was back in the car.
Clarkey

Hi all
The head is off and the stud out it had stripped the nut as well as coming lose... the lack of thread in the tapped hole in the block is the reason it screwed so far in and caused the problems
see picture
Clarkey

Not sure a helicoil will solve this but a  "time sert" possibly could, and "big sert" (http://www.timesert.com/html/bigsert.html) probably would be required. What is the thread?

Wurth do a variety of Timesert kits.

I have not tried myself to helicoil an Appia head but I don't see why not. This kind of repair can be done to Lancia alloy components. On the other hand, running with a slack fastener may warp the cylinder head and produce leakage problems. Andrea

Andrea, I was looking at the top c10mm of the hole where no thread is apparent as it seems to have been abused in the past. I am surprised the engine shop did not spot this.....Tim

Just finished reading all 46 pages, you deserve a medal for perseverance  8)

A lesser man would have done the boat anchor by now

I must confess I have given up at the moment as we are moving house so the little beast is being trailered back up North to a more spacious and slightly warmer workshop. in the meantime I managed to revisit the 'Parallel  project' as it needed to be moved to allow the sulking Appia in!
Clarkey

The previous project a Flavia Coupe took ten years surviving 2 divorces,  a career change and about half a dozen moves.
Clarkey

As I say, perseverance  8) ;D

The Appia was last seen on the back of a trailer this morning on it's way to the unit...I'm still stuck with that flippin engine...

Could you permit yourself a donor engine to get the show on the road and deal with the recalcitrant unit over a longer period? Or is that cheating?

It will get sorted...

The little beast arrived back at Hartlepool this morning he looks a bit cold!

And with his younger brother...

Hi, i am also working on a s1 appia and wondered if you could tell me where you got the bushes for gear change set up ? My car is quite tidy but the engine is stuck/seized the car had been idle for many years, also any other tips that you think might save time? Obviously I have read your thread on your s1, really interesting I hope your winning.  Regards dave diamond

Hi Dave
We should have a set of the bushes and rubber grommets in the Appia Consortiums stores up in Hartlepool...as a member you will get a discount on the parts and a newsletter plus access to a wealth of information and help from Consortium members.
Jim Clarke

Hi Jim I thought I had joined the consortium last year ,I thought I paid £20 to do so ? But obviously if more subs are owing I’m more than happy to pay? And furthermore if you tell the cost of parts I asked for and where the funds should go I,ll pay that as well. Dave d

Hi David
Right in the middle of moving house but sanity will be resumed next week hopefully. I will check on the bush/grommet situation and get in touch. The subs are due for 2020 around March so you will be paid up till then.
Jim

Hi all
No progress at all  :(

Sorry to hear that!

At last a bit of Appia time. On Friday I scoped out a machine shop who is willing to look at the helicoil problem with the block so today I set to and stripped the engine down again...good news none of the piston rings are damaged so should be good to go when I get the block sorted.
Clarkey

prompt service from the machine shop as they rang back the same afternoon to say the helicoil was done...nice see piccy. I have asked them to check out the front wheel cylinder to see if the can sleeve it in stainless steel.
Clarkey

All back together to where it was in January...will get on with the head and then the timing this week. Got lucky with the broken sump bolt.
Clarkey

Piccies

Good bit of progress as the head is back on and all tightened up with no dramas. Had a go at the valve timing but still got the problem of the inlet cam moving and the valve clearance for piston No. 1 closing up when you rotate the exhaust cam. I will have to have a think about creating a method of locking the cams in place when they have been positioned. A rummage and compare shows that the bolts for the rear springs fit into the end of the camshaft so I think a longer threaded bolt or a bit of threaded bar with some locknuts might be the way forward to rotate the camshaft with a bit more control...a work in progress. Another idea was to just use the rocker shafts with just the rockers for cylinder No.1 as even with the tappet screws right back there is still some tension on the valves.
Clarkey

Valve timing done I removed all the rocker arms bar no 1 and it seemed to go OK so just the valve clearances to do, refit the spark plugs, put some oil in check the timing and we can have ago at starting it...I did notice when turning the little beast over there was some air being pushed out of the spark plug holes so that is encouraging.
Clarkey

I  would leave the spark plugs out until you have cranked it over and got oil pressure up to the valve gear etc first.
Good luck!

Sounds a sensible idea...might be the weekend before I get over to Hartlepool but a full day might see some progress
Clarkey

Hi all
Put some oil in connected up the starter motor and an oil pressure gauge cranked it over and no oil pressure!!!
So I loosened the oil filter cannister a bit tried again and some oil was pushed out so the pump was working...tightened it back up cranked a bit more and got about 35psi.
Decided to take the filter right off and guess what? there was no filter in the cannister. Hmmm...
More fun tomorrow as  I have some wheels in the form of a Suzuki Ignis genuine one owner with 12500 miles on the clock and a full service history on the test drive it felt like a wheel bearing had gone or the discs were warped...turned out to be a huge split/bulge  in the front tyre some new tyres have cured that but methinks it was a lucky escape and is a warning against using old tyres. The tyres looked to be at least 17 years old like the car!
Good news about the compression is that we have some! as it blew the sparkplug lead connectors out as it cranked over.
Clarkey

pic

Well done Clarkey, sounds more promising than the previous attempts. Are you going to give it a brief start on the stand to make sure it`s OK before installing it in the car? You don`t need any water for a few seconds of running, as long as it has oil pressure. Good Luck.

Might wheel it outside so I can run away if it all goes horribly wrong...

Got side tracked today with the Suzuki but managed to get the oil filter back on and have left the engine to drain overnight to get all the old oil out.

Back on the case this morning so fresh oil/filter in and gave it a spin over...no oil pressure of course so we loosened the oil gauge feed pipe a bit and a spin produced some air bubble at the banjo so we nipped it up and 35psi was there again. So heeding Jaydub's comment about checking the oil up to the valve gear we watched carefully as the engine was spun over. The inlet side was fine with lovely oil coming out at each rocker. However the exhaust side had not a drop so I took the shaft off and found the oil feed hole blocked with swarf.. Oh Dear... The shaft was removed and all the rockers removed to find 2 of the other oil holes clogged up with what looks like aluminium swarf. I guess when the head was skimmed some swarf has got into the oilway??? So put the shaft back on and unfortunately oil was only coming out of the first rocker arm swivel point the other 3 being bone dry. As the battery was flat and you could fry an egg on the starter motor I gave up for the day..
Clarkey

And the rocker shaft

At last some progress... I took the rocker shaft off (again!) to check for more swarf in the oil feed holes to find them clear so it transpires I had put the shaft in reversed so a quick flip around and hey presto oil at all the rockers Phew! So next the tappets were adjusted and finally check for a spark all done OK. Tomorrow I will check the ignition timing and get some petrol.
Clarkey

Well a promising start to the engine start up lot's of bangs from the exhaust but no running and I still reek of petrol as it ended up everywhere. I think I need a third hand to pour in the petrol whilst pressing the starter and jiggling the throttle.
Clarkey

Hope you are wearing nomex underwear and have a big fire extinguisher handy....

Yes - no matter how good or new they look always check the age of tyres when buying a second hand car. There are coded numbers on the sidewall which show when the tyre was made -if there are no such numbers the tyre is very old, a particular problem if the car has come out of a collection. The usual opinion is that tyres should be dumped after ten years, no matter how good the tread. The argument could be used when negotiating the price of the car.

If you are restoring a car and anticipate taking some time, don't start by buying new tyres as you will waste some of their life.

Our Augusta, bought from Italy in 2018 was advertised as having new tyres - they were new - in the 1990's!

Mike

Hi all
Finally managed some Appia time I'll let the pictures do the talking

Oh the joys of owning an engine crane...

Getting the angle of dangle is crucial...

And it is in took a bit of pushing and shoving as it was not at a steep enough angle and I forgot to take off the passenger side engine mount but when that was removed it went in just need to fasten it in and connect everything up.
Contented Clarkey

Excellent ! Couple of laps of the car park next week ?

you are funny!
anyway engine and gearbox bolted down so I thought I would have a go at adjusting the gearchange as it would stick in 4th? 3 hours later and a lot of swearing it is sorted all that was needed was to adjust the length of one of the adjustable rods to stop the gearlever going too far over causing it to jam as you could not get enough leverage on it to flip it back into the central position. So after shortening it by a few turns (made it worse) I lengthened it by about 6 turns and bingo a functioning gearchange. However the clutch feels funny so I will have a look at that tomorrow and hopefully fit the propshaft.
Clarkey

Never got round to the propshaft got bogged down with the accelerator and choke. The accelerator tie rod got mangled when the engine was put back so had to be straightened. The elves had been playing with some cutters and somehow had managed to cut an inch and a half of the choke cable off... the little scamps so it had to be replaced so we now have a working throttle and choke. Propshaft tomorrow.
Clarkey

Hi all
decided to sort out the clutch before the propshaft so 4 hours later we have a new clutch arm bush fitted after a struggle changing the original S1 one for a S2/3 one as we have no bushes for the early type but lots of the later ones. needless to say the later one did not want to go on the pedal cross shaft more accurately the clamp bolt would not go in . The solution was to ream out the clamp bolt holes and file the slot in the cross shaft a bit deeper...result!
So on to the propshaft I managed to get 2 bolts in the front doughnut and one in the back doughnut so tomorrow I'll jack up the back end and rotate the propshaft to let me get the other bolts in.
Clarkey

Hi all
Propshaft in also got the starter motor, coil, dynamo and fuel pump connected up. It has been in my mind to drain the tank as it always smelled of paint thinners so out came the drain plug and the picture tells it all. Have ordered some new mesh so will soon have it back in. The keen eyed will notice the S1 drain plug is different to the later cars and even has a different thread. Will try out the electrics tomorrow and possibly give the tank a flush out.
Clarkey

The Italian gremlins have been busy because as soon as I connected the battery the horn started up! seems it was a sticking central horn push so one more job done. Ordered some new mesh for the fuel tank filter so will plod on with the electrics as it now seems the headlights will not come on...now where is that multimeter..
Clarkey

Few faults partially sorted as the light switch was fritzed and the headlamp changeover switch seems to have a permanent earth on the lead to the changeover relay. the light switch I changed for a S3 but it has a black not white knob so will have to see if I can repair the original one. The problem with the change over switch is the only way to have a good look at it is to remove the steering column as it might be the wiring from inside the column. Still we have working headlights now after sorting a few dodgy earths out so a bit of progress.
Clarkey

Headlights now working but the changeover switch and the relay are a bit flaky I think they just need some use. The horn has been apart and removed about 3 times and at the last attempt both the centre button and the spoke pads are working though the horns sound a bit ropey. First job tomorrow tune the horns if possible and then get the radiator in. Looking at the headlights the reflectors are in a poor state has anyone sourced new ones or had them resilvered?
Clarkey

Jim, re headlights - I bought new repro's in Italy (eBay , I think)

I'll have a look

Hi all
Bit more done as the radiator is in and all connected up, spins over on the starter but will have to wait till I can repair the fuel tank drain plug/filter before we try any combustion experiments.
Clarkey

Just remembered I tuned the horns before I put the radiator back and the sound has changed from a coarse braying noise to a much louder and more melodious one...Result!

Still waiting for the brass filter mesh so decided to take the old one apart...

And now it is back together! managed to crank the compressor back into life and blew out the fuel line back to the tank as well.
Clarkey

Fibre washer. I would use copper, or malleable aluminium??

It had a fibre one on but I set it on fire oops

Tank had a quick rinse with petrol and the plug put back in ...fuel line at the other end connected so I spun it over on the key to see if it would draw up some petrol into the inline fuel filter I fitted...it did! so I gave it a longer spin over and we got some bangs and pops. I thought a check of the spark was in order and it was a sickly yellow not a nice white one so will check the points next.
Clarkey

I have just received a box of indicator and brake lights from Chris Gawne and my eagle eye had spotted some festoon mounting lamp holders minus their lenses so I got a little farther with rebuilding the number plate lights as the originals are in very poor shape with the internal steel plate in one completly shot. So a quick trace round a piece of scrap aluminium plate and a bit of drilling and cutting Ta Dah! Bit more to do but I now have 2 newish bulb holders to fit into the number plate light castings. The badly corroded plate can be seen in the first picture as well as the seized solid cable connection. I just need to find some perspex or similar to make a lenses for each lamp. Typical Lancia the oblong hole in the middle of the plate matches up with a similar hole in the boot lid allowing I expect light to illuminate the boot when the side lights etc are on can't wait  :) :) :)
The second picture shows the bulb holder salvaged from the Chris Gawne hoard.
Clarkey

There is more

I might look into running a separate earth for these lamps as this will ensure a better performance rather than relying on the connection via the boot lid hinges. Also a more weather proof sealing for the lamps as I am guessing they would be a major water ingress spot for the boot when the seals are a bit tired (mine were stuck on with what looks like tar!)
Clarkey

Finally got one finished

and tested in situ

And then there were 2

While at the front...

Still a fair bit of wiring to do before the number plate lights are finished plus what to do about the non-existent chrome???

just arrived a Minivan/Traveller rear light as I want to change the boxy plastic ones...

The piccy shows a mock up with the minivan lenses stuck on with bluetack...problem is I will have to cut the wing to get this light fitting to fit.

Another view the finished job would have a chrome surround...

Another idea would be two separate lights like this...Any comments on this would be most gratefully received.
Clarkey

I think the minivan units work well. My car has replacement units which I'm not entirely happy with, and having looked at the alternatives available I decided the mini ones were probably the best solution, but decided to stick with what I had after seeing the prices they fetched! For me the individual lamps you show look too messy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLfJZrXH/IMG-9806.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Hi Clarkey

For me the individual ones look pretty awful and a definite bodge.

I actually like the look yours Mike

Peter

Just sourced another mini rear lamp in total the 2 cost £28 plus postage so not too bad...out with the Dremel tomorrow.
Clarkey

When I was looking at changing my lamps, the minivan ones were going to be well into three figures for a second-hand pair, so you've done well there! Mine are 'all right', but they have a very square profile with sharp edges which jars with the rounded lines of the car... but it was only a passing fancy, they'll stay for now.

Hi All
Oops too late now...

What a marvellous device a Dremmel is plus the wing is aluminium so easy to cut

A bit of work to do seating the lamp to the wing but I sourced a set of new gaskets so should be able to get a good fit.

Bit of rewiring and I'll get the other one in 😊 the new lamp is an improvement on the boxy one and not as bright with no slot to light up a number plate as they were designed for a trailer board.
Well chuffed of Redcar

Very nice, and I imagine very satisfying.

Bit scary cutting chunks out of the wings... Surprised at how thick the metal is. And now we have 2 but looks like the brake light switch is on the fritz and the gaskets need a bit of trimming to make the fit better.
Clarkey

Brake lights working as well as the indicator switch (it wasn't locking as the elves had been playing with screwdrivers and disconnected a wire) Will swap out the front indicator lights for some Morris Minor ones as my original ones are shot.
Clarkey

And here they are...bit of rewiring and hole cutting to do but much easier than the back ones as the panel is flat. I have some new gaskets and seals on order so will soon be up and running with an orange indicator light separate from a white sidelight.
Clarkey

bit more

Well impressed with the replacement gaskets as they are very good quality...question is where do you out the clear gasket? in front of the sponge one or behind? The thick rubber one goes between the rear of the lamp and the panel.

The picture shows the slot cut to accept the bigger lamp...

And here is the finished look the round lamps fit in with the car's lines better than a square one I looked at (ex Mk1 Escort/Hillman Minx I think).
Clarkey

piccy

A word on the Dremmel gizmo it is working fine but when I went to recharge the battery there was a fritzed plastic smell coming from the charger so will have to source another charger. To over come this and cut out the holes for the front lights I used an older less powerful but mains powered gizmo...it got a bit hot but again I was surprised at how thick the steel is.
Clarkey

Hi all
Had a look at the points yesterday and they were a bit black and crispy so I spun the engine over with the dizzy cap off and we had a lot of sparking and arcing across the points so I decided to 'quickly' change the condensor...2 hours (that's what it felt like!) and it was out but it is a poor wee thing nothing like the new ones we have in stock so I detect a bodge in the dim and distant past.
Clarkey

Lengthen the wire on a new condenser and fit on the distributor side of the coil with its bracket earthed on the coil mounting bracket. Saves the hassle of removing points screws etc.

That is an excellent idea...but I've just fitted the new condensor in the original position will bear it in mind though for the future. Got the points out today they are in a very grotty condition so they have been changed. Reset the ignition timing and gave it a spin and got a nice bang and the smell of burning oil so will fit some new plugs ( the old ones are very black and oily )and some fresh petrol tomorrow...
Clarkey

My condenser is externally mounted on the distributor:

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXRVVzMf/P1060836.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Hi all
During my efforts to get the engine going I have been baffled by the lack of a test to show that one has the engine timed there are no marks on the camshaft sprocket you need to line up...during a bit of light reading of a S3 user manual I came across this see below

The instructions seem to make sense so I tried them on my engine a S2 lump and it indicates surprise surprise the timing is out so weather permitting I will go over to Hartlepool and have another go at the valve timing. I was dubious at attempting this with the engine in the car but once I had took the bumper, radiator, water pump, dynamo, crankshaft pulley and timing chain cover off I was pleasantly surprised how much room there was and as the car is up on the dollies it was at a good working height.
Clarkey

The $64,000 question is will it run with the timing chain cover off hmmm.... would save a lot of work if it still not right...
Clarkey

Been a while but have spent a bit of time under the bonnet and we have found a reason for the none starting... Pics and explanation tomorrow.
Clarkey

It looks like the dowel on the block has been fouling the cylinder head stopping it clamping down on the head gasket and making a proper seal. The gasket looks very uncompressed in the picture as the head is pulled up

The offending dowel can be seen on the right of the picture with bits of cylinder head on it Guilty!!! The corresponding hole in the cylinder head shows evidence of binding.

The result of this can be seen with the oil in cylinder number 4 and to a lesser extant in cylinder number one. The other 2 cylinders are dry but have big soot particles in so all the pistons will have to come out to be cleaned the bores checked the ring gapping checked, the dowel hole cleaned out and a new head gasket fitted.

I will have to check the oil feed to the head to make sure that is not binding and preventing the head being pulled down correctly as well.

So the sump is off and I can now get the pistons out. In a way despite all the work involved I have a reason for the low compressions and can hopefully sort it out.
Relieved of Redcar

Hi all
The pistons are all out cleaned, oiled and ready to go back in, I have cleaned up the 2 location holes in the head. The bores have been cleaned up and we just need to clean up the crank and put the pistons back in. So far no further problems have been found apart from some sticky rings that have responded to cleaning in paraffin and a rinse in petrol.

An 8mm drill was used to clean up the location holes and I will get the airline out tomorrow and blow out any swarf that has fallen in to the oilway.
Clarkey

Working full time is not what it is cracked up to be as I don't have time for anything so I made a determined effort to get some work done on the Appia this weekend. I have been in touch with a trimmer who will have a look at the seats and give me a price. So the seats have come out so I can drop them off. The engine still needs sorting so looking through the manual there is a section on inserting the camshaft and getting it to mesh with the oil pump/distributor drive whilst keeping the dizzy drive at right angles to the cam shaft so that is where we will start. Also purchased a new wiper arm bit pricey but it fits.
Clarkey

I have been negotiating a price for the retrim and to keep the costs down the trimmer asked if I could take the brackets off the front seats. As it turns out the bottom of the backrest where it hinges onto the base is one piece so would not strip down further but what a lot of work the old seat was inside very impressed...hope the trimmer can do them justice but he has been in the trade for 30 years and is presently working on some Aurelia seats so fingers crossed.
Clarkey

Bit of an update on the retrim...just had the seats measured up for the new cloth and he estimates 7 + 1 metres the extra metre being in case of emergencies down the line. I will have to measure the door cards add 2" all und and then decide if you can get one or two door cards per running metre on the 54" wide cloth...we shall see the door cards are not very big.
Clarkey

****** STOP PRESS ******
Everything comes to he that waits...or something like that. Anyway I had given myself a week to get the engine started and had spent three days moving cars and stuff around to get at the S1. So we did all the usual stuff new plugs, fresh petrol etc but to no avail. I decided to do a bit of research on the subject and decided that despite doing the valve timing half a dozen times i was not doing it right or how else would the engine be trying to compress two cylinders at once. So reading the workshop manual again a thought occurred to me that on the exhaust valve the clearance to be checked was on the closing of the valve not the opening. Armed with this thought I checked the closing up of the clearance as the valve was closing around bdc, removed the dowel, turned the crank to TDC, replaced the dowels, did the ignition timing, put the plugs back in, reconnected the leads, spun it over and it started on all 4 cylinders! WOWSER!  It had to be switched of fairly quickly as the timing chain cover was off. The next jobs will to be plumb in the radiator and heater, put some oil in as most of the sump contents are sprayed round the floor, put some water in and see if it will run OK.
Relieved of Redcar

Now that is progress .... great !

One step forward 2 steps back...Busy day yesterday, I pushed the S1 and the S2 outside as I didn't fancy running the S1 inside with just a downpipe for an exhaust plus daylight is always better to see with. Terry my mate came over as he was bored so we filled up the radiator with a mix of anti freeze and de ionised water, but we both remarked how little went in Hmmm, Any few spins over and it started, we checked the oil pressure on a fast tickover and it was between the '25' and '50' mark on the gauge so OK. After we had switched the engine off I looked in the radiator and the level had not gone down much Hmmm. So we opened the drain tap on the bottom of the rad and a bit of water came out then stopped Hmmm. So we took the alloy casting off expecting a torrent, no nothing came out. So out came the radiator with still no water coming out even though it was still full and the only way to get the water out was by tipping it upside down! So another radiator was put in that looked as if it might have been reconditioned as it was very black and shiny and in a plastic bag. We got it all plumbed in nipped up a few drips and went to fill it up when Terry said it's got a hole in it! sue enough it was leaking badly about a third of the way down. Undeterred I started it up as I was determined it would move under it's own power after ??? years but I was unable to get reverse so had to be content with a foot or so of forward movement. The plan is to reverse flush the first radiator and see what comes out as it was reconditioned about 5 years ago and has probably only had water in once. If that fails I will have a look at patching up the first reserve one. In addition we will have to check the gear linkage for selecting reverse. On reflection the engine and clutch seem nice and smooth (if a bit noisy with no exhaust) so progress at last.
Relieved of Redcar AKA Clarkey

Managed a bit of time with our favourite baby Lancia so I gave it a little engine warm up just to keep it happy...seats etc are at the trimmers due back the end of the month.
Clarkey

Exited to see how your seats turn out!! Admire your tenacity 👌

Hi all
The house move is ticking along nicely and now I am officially retired I have a bit (lot) more spare time. This being the case I decided the Appia project needed a boot up the proverbial so I have insisted the car trimmer I have to actually do some of the re-trim. The theory is this will force me to get on with the bodywork and paint so I can fit my nice new seats when they arrive. Now if only that Flaminia engine wasn't in the way...
I went to see him last week and to my amazement he said "Just the man!" turns out he was concerned about the colour of the piping and vinyl bits of the trim as he knew we had discussed Navy but he is very experienced and not knowing the final colour was concerned that dark blue trim would not be as good as a lighter blue.So the good news is later this week he may of actually done the door cards, we will see.
Clarkey

Rear seat back from trimmer...
Clarkey

Looks a lot better in real life...honest

Hi all
I took delivery of another front seat cushion yesterday and possibly today I will collect the rear seat back. Next week I am promised the two front seat backs and sometime in November we should see the doorcards, sun visors and other bits of trim. The idea I had of getting the seats done is concentrating my mind on progressing this project as I will probably order the body roller for delivery after we have moved as I will be 5 minutes walk from the workshop.
Clarkey

Oh how car trimmers do lie! mine said don't bother coming over for the front seat bases as he will drop them off a 40 mile round trip...still waiting. I will go and see him next week. So far we have the front seat bases, the rear seat base and the rear seat back cushion. So I am waiting for the front seat back rests with the grab handles, 4 doorcards, the sun visors, the parcel shelf in vinyl, various bits from around the back doors and the inside of the glovebox.
Clarkey

Hi all
Managed to trap the car trimmer in his lair and he had somethings to show me. He had a door card done that just needs a bit of piping and he also had the seat back grab handle that he was thinking of recovering with vinyl. In the end he decided to try plastic paint and I think when he has matched up the colour to the blue of the vinyl trim and piping we will be a step further along. Picture shows the not quite finished doorcard.
Clarkey

Saw a lovely S3 today in Lancia Vert it also had a green leather interior very nice...green with blue interior...Hmmm
Clarkey

went to see the trimmer no progress no surprise there, I am suspecting he has lost/destroyed the door cards and seat bases and daren't tell me.

Hi all
Visited the trimmer and he had made some progress, the door pocket is now sewn in and elasticated so it snaps back into place when you let go of the vinyl tab...still some way to go.
Clarkey

Have not been to see the trimmer as he will just get the same doorcard out again. The Appia has moved up to 2nd place in the queue (Terry is itching to start welding) as I am determined to get the Y10 mechanics done before Christmas. We shall see as I am pencilled in to be under a Honda Civic tomorrow hopefully it will only be visiting for the day.
Clarkey