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Title: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: DavidLaver on 09 June, 2014, 11:28:17 PM http://www.retro-speed.co.uk/shownews.asp?art=12096 What takes the edge off this fantastic news is that road racing claimed another victim, driver Antonio Bertini. Its a complex topic I'm in no mood to expand on, but its covered with honesty in a recent documentary about the TT. I've leant my copy to an ex-bobsled competitor. http://www.amazon.co.uk/TT-Closer-Edge-disc-DVD/dp/B005CHE5CK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1402356210&sr=8-3&keywords=tt+racer On the event: https://www.facebook.com/ModenaCentoOreClassic?ref=stream http://www.modenacentooreclassic.it/ Direct link to videos: http://www.modenacentooreclassic.it/en/doc-52-1.aspx David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: DavidLaver on 09 June, 2014, 11:39:36 PM For those who don't know my own road racing experience was at the Manx Classic in that same car. It must be 16 years ago now. I consider that it was a great privilege to have been able to do it. I hope that at some point I'll be able to write something retrospective to go with what I wrote at the time. David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: peterbaker on 10 June, 2014, 07:58:50 AM It should be noted that the driver who died, died through not wearing his seat belt during an untimed road section. His navigator, who was belted up suffered no injury. Im attending an MSA historic racing, safety forum next week where the issues surrounding racing will be aired in an open atmosphere. At Cadwell Park on Saturday I witnessed a 1920s Alvis go straight on at the hairpin, hitting the barrier and coming to an immediate stop. The driver's neck was subject to high G forces and he was lucky to walk away. What surprises me is the fact these cars race without ANY safety equipment, not even belts. The driver may chose, after all, its his life, but after a crash its the volunteer marshal who has to pick up the pieces. Complicated subject. The image says it all.
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Parisien on 10 June, 2014, 08:19:58 AM A terrible shame David; given the risks involved, precautions to a certain level, must be taken.
P Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: JohnMillham on 10 June, 2014, 08:21:13 AM It should be noted that the driver who died, died through not wearing his seat belt during an untimed road section. His navigator, who was belted up suffered no injury. Im attending an MSA historic racing, safety forum next week where the issues surrounding racing will be aired in an open atmosphere. At Cadwell Park on Saturday I witnessed a 1920s Alvis go straight on at the hairpin, hitting the barrier and coming to an immediate stop. The driver's neck was subject to high G forces and he was lucky to walk away. What surprises me is the fact these cars race without ANY safety equipment, not even belts. The driver may chose, after all, its his life, but after a crash its the volunteer marshal who has to pick up the pieces. Complicated subject. The image says it all. I heard that his shoe got caught in the pedals somehow. It was his first race in a VSCC event and the only "incident" we had at cadwell. Well done Kennedys! Regards, John Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Kevin MacBride on 10 June, 2014, 08:48:45 AM My Mams name was Kennedy, so I will claim the victory as an 'Irish' one.. well done.
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: stanley sweet on 10 June, 2014, 09:21:38 AM The safety issue is difficult on older cars. In period the drivers never wore belts because they WANTED to be thrown clear. The same cars today have the same issue. Had the Lagonda driver been strapped in tight and with possibly a HANS device he would have suffered very little. In a different scenario of a barrel roll with his upper half protuding and strapped in it doesn't bear thinking about. A roll hoop and straps seems the answer to most situations, the downside being the cars would look so ugly. Well done to the Kennedys - it's just great to see an Aurelia out there winning an event like this.
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Parisien on 10 June, 2014, 10:52:42 AM Surely, hoops and harnesses can be added and removed before and after if you're a serious racer.......or even a once off?!
P Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Parisien on 10 June, 2014, 11:00:33 AM So 5 minutes of video....a one second shot each of the 250 CAN B20 and same of Kennedys B20, from behind and static.............endless Porsches, Ferraris etc..........
Shame P Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: stanley sweet on 10 June, 2014, 01:16:17 PM Surely, hoops and harnesses can be added and removed before and after if you're a serious racer.......or even a once off?! P Yes - you've reminded me that Simon Taylor (editor of Classic and Sportscar, not sure if he still is...) did exactly that with his HWM. He had it custom made so obviously a lot more money that an off the shelf. Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Derek Moore on 10 June, 2014, 04:54:54 PM I see that the Alvis crash driver was a novice. Does the "X"denote lack of experience, or just of that particular class?. I was watching the Monaco Retro races with my son-in-law over the weekend. He races Formula Ford 2000 historic, and tells me you just effectively need a racing licence for this, and off you go. If you've got the dosh, and I assume a minimum of experience, you can create whatever mayhem you like, as seen at Monaco.
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: JohnMillham on 10 June, 2014, 05:17:02 PM Actually, it was a Lagonda, not an Alvis. And the cross does mean he's a novice.
Regards, John Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: DavidLaver on 10 June, 2014, 05:40:41 PM The black cross in a yellow square is for a novice - something like ten clean races to get rid of that.
National B licence needs a written exam and a practical on track test - they want to see you can drive with control at a reasonable pace and while doing that have mental capacity to listen to and respond to instructions. To sprint or hillclimb its "by return of post". I'm not even sure they ask for a medical. Anyone up to date? When I was racing I resisted having a medical at work for fear they would bar me from racing - turns out it was all stress related and nothing to worry about - ish!! A previous life... Some meeting require a National A or an International licence. The Brighton Speed Trials requires an "A" licence - they don't let ANY idiot drag race down their seafront. Being in the EEC and having UK clubs promote meetings at Spa and the like means its possible to race in another country without an International licence - its more the grade of meeting than the location. There will be "international" meetings in the UK where there are no novices. I expect the Monaco Historics would be Internation licences. Its no ordinary meeting. There will be pro drivers paid to "give the car a result" mixing with the owner drivers (money might buy the car, can buy experience, but won't buy reflexes or talent). At that level I think the personalities are rather different to a "club race". There might also be the "I won't get to do this again, I'm going to really go for it" as a factor coupled with the oddities of Monaco - lots of bumps and cambers and no margin for error. The Kennedy's don't have to have race seats, cage, or even belts. They have some non homologated buckets comfortable for the road and more in keeping. They have a cage and harnesses by choice and a full fire system. The car has a modern fuel tank and fire wall. On the Austin 7 the VSCC ask for a fire extinguisher, a battery master switch, and a sticker to show where the ignition switch is. They give it a good check over and things like the sump plug has to be lock wired and the fuel filler safe. Some strap in and some fit a roll hoop but its rare. A chest protector of the type horse riders use is not unusual. I used to ask those who looked and questioned the lack of belts as to which bit they wanted to share an accident with. I used to think of it as "a big go kart" or "no worse than a horse". The biggest fear is locking wheels and flipping but driving standards are higher than - say - 750MC Stock Hatch which is a bit more "BTCC". Part of the appeal of historics is that most people are there for the car first and mutual care and respect is at a high level - people give each other space. When I first went to watch the VSCC was still sports jackets and a cigar on the grid. In 35 years its now full face helmets and a full race suit and gloves. Its a spectrum. David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: chriswgawne on 10 June, 2014, 06:17:40 PM Not sure whether Jason or Louise will pick up David's last post but could I please correct you David?
All race meetings for vehicles like Aurelias within Europe require that the vehicle has properly secured 'FIA current' race seats and harnesses (and the drivers must have 'FIA current' helmet, racesuit, shoes and gloves). These items are all dated and certified by the FIA and have a life of typically 5-7 years before going 'out of date'. They will not be worn out by this date but the FIA likes collecting money from all racers by various means. If these requirments (and many others) are not met at scrutineering at the race meeting,then you cannot compete Lots and lots of other requirements (such as steel wheelnuts, nor brass - I nearly failed scrutineering at Brands for this once ) but I mention the above because they are safety related. If further info required then one needs to see the MSA Regs. Chris Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: DavidLaver on 10 June, 2014, 10:55:33 PM Belts having a life is "after my time" and one of the many items that made the "upfront" costs to get back to racing prohibitive. I'm confident they get away with non homologated seats - I hope to see them on Sunday and will ask if I need to eat humble pie. David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: DavidLaver on 10 June, 2014, 11:00:00 PM One of the things I'm glad I did starting out was to ask scruitneers for "advisories". Initially the cage mounting wasn't quite as they'd like, the seat mounting also, various pipe runs and loose wiring.
Wheel nuts are a new one on me. They're keen to see bulk heads fully sealed. I was surprised that Tim was able to run without a rear firewall. David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Richard Fridd on 11 June, 2014, 06:34:23 AM Is it still the case that racesuits etc can be re validated with a 'check over' and new label from the maker?
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: Kevin MacBride on 11 June, 2014, 08:35:35 AM I realize this is getting off topic but in my case I could have run the Aurelia with a standard seat, no belts and no cage. I would still have needed a helmet, suit, extinguisher etc. If I had, I doubt I'd be typing this now.
The reason for this is that my car is a 1954 model, and over here anything 'pre 55' is the same as pre war. I chose to fit everything as I sometimes (used to) compete in a 'pre 74' class. In which case belts, seat, everything has to be within date, and changed when appropriate. The Hans Device has also been mooted for our class, although some drivers had problems trying to fit the required seat to accept the device. The other issue is that some old racing cars simply cannot be driven properly by 'amateurs'. I seem to remember reading about qualifying times at the Monaco Historic, where some drivers of older 70/80's F1 cars could not negotiate the track even at a moderate speed, and were almost causing an obstruction to some of the ex professionals who race such cars. A few years ago I had a few laps in a modern Lola sports racer (at Mondello), all carbon and paddle gearchange stuff. The acceleration and brakes were unbelievable, but I was a good bit slower than my instructor, who had many years more experience than me. I think that most 'historic' racers, who do it for fun, and because they have a particular make of car, tend to race within their own limits, rather than the cars limit. Its one thing driving a track, even at a decent pace, on your own, but quite different when in a pack of cars, all with different speed differentials, and all vying for the same space. Tyre technology has improved vastly, and even 'modern' historic race tyres have far more grip than rubber from 60/70 years ago. Sometimes you need a car to slip and slide, rather than stay glued to the track, the strain on components can lead to all sorts of problems, especially when you reach the limit and lose adhesion. Another point is that I think its only FIA sanctioned events need all the required regulations. Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: chriswgawne on 11 June, 2014, 08:36:39 AM David,
The thoroughness and diligence of the scrutineering varies enormously from event to event and there is absolutely no correlation between the size of the event and this diligence. If anything, in the UK I have found the larger the event the more relaxed the scrutineering is. Regarding wheelnuts Jason and Louise never had an issue with their brass wheelnuts for example. As to seats, they may well be using non homologated seats (my passenger seat is non FIA), but there are very clear rules which cover this. I should also say that any equipment with a FIA approval rating will generally be safer and more robust than those without so why pennypinch with safety. As to a rear firewall, this exists as standard in the form of the sealed boot floor as the tank is a separate entity beneath it. This comes up regularly at scrutineering. The tank breather pipe has to be modified to still allow the tank to breathe but to NOT leak fuel out whatever position the body of the car finds itself after a hypothetical accident. BTW the part of scrutineering which always seems to be done properly wherever you are in my experience is the helmet/racesuit/shoes/gloves and occasionally underwear/socks/balaclava. When Jason and Louise, Tim and I did our 'European tour' a few years ago to the Grand Prix de l'Age d'Or at Dijon and the Coppa Intereuropa at Monza we 3 Aurelias, all of which were slightly different and which were the only ones at the events, each had slightly different experiences with the diligence, policy and attitude of the scrutineers. So in summary, there are very clear rules in the MSA Regs and the Race Organisers Regs which in theory cover everything on the car but the scrutineers, all of whom are enthusiasts and very few of whom are jobsworths, use their discretion from time to time. Chris Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: stanley sweet on 11 June, 2014, 08:56:22 AM I still have 'dated' seats from my sprint days, not that thay were required in my class but once I'd fitted them and was strapped in as part of the car it made the steering feel so different. I was no longer using the wheel to stop myself sliding into the passenger seat! I've often wondered why they are dated and what can possibly deteriorate? The reason Chris gives that the FIA likes collecting money sounds about right. I try to go to the Grand Prix de l'Age D'or each year as it's about 1.5 hours away. I've missed a couple - bet those were the years when the Aurelias arrived! I would have liked to have seen that.
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: DavidLaver on 11 June, 2014, 10:08:20 AM Chris - I agree regarding seats and if ever I'm in the privileged position to "have another go" I expect I'd even go for the type with the wrap round headrest - but as before make it a five minute job to pull it out again after. Kevin - you are so right to point out the car's limits and driver's limits are not one and the same - the Goodwood "double driver" events give the historic racers pause for thought when the VIP hotshots go a couple of seconds a lap quicker with no prior knowledge of the car or track. Its also not uncommon for them to literally "drive the wheels off". David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: JohnMillham on 11 June, 2014, 11:20:51 AM David, Quite right! Years ago at the Nurburgring, when I was helping a friend with an ERA, the scrutineer saw the tiny fire extinguisher and said "Zat is just for killing flies!", but still allowed him to race. The thoroughness and diligence of the scrutineering varies enormously from event to event and there is absolutely no correlation between the size of the event and this diligence. Regards, John Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: stanley sweet on 11 June, 2014, 11:47:06 AM Talking of car and driver limits I did discover the Fulvia was always better than me. On the odd occasion when maybe a missed gear might find me way past my usual braking and changing down point the Fulvia would enter a corner faster than ever before and come out without drama. As a driver I never really did find its limits, partly because I had to drive it home, partly because I'm not Sandro Munari....
Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: peterbaker on 11 June, 2014, 12:31:27 PM The black cross in a yellow square is for a novice - something like ten clean races to get rid of that. National B licence needs a written exam and a practical on track test - they want to see you can drive with control at a reasonable pace and while doing that have mental capacity to listen to and respond to instructions. To sprint or hillclimb its "by return of post". I'm not even sure they ask for a medical. Anyone up to date? When I was racing I resisted having a medical at work for fear they would bar me from racing - turns out it was all stress related and nothing to worry about - ish!! A previous life... Some meeting require a National A or an International licence. The Brighton Speed Trials requires an "A" licence - they don't let ANY idiot drag race down their seafront. Being in the EEC and having UK clubs promote meetings at Spa and the like means its possible to race in another country without an International licence - its more the grade of meeting than the location. There will be "international" meetings in the UK where there are no novices. I expect the Monaco Historics would be Internation licences. Its no ordinary meeting. There will be pro drivers paid to "give the car a result" mixing with the owner drivers (money might buy the car, can buy experience, but won't buy reflexes or talent). At that level I think the personalities are rather different to a "club race". There might also be the "I won't get to do this again, I'm going to really go for it" as a factor coupled with the oddities of Monaco - lots of bumps and cambers and no margin for error. The Kennedy's don't have to have race seats, cage, or even belts. They have some non homologated buckets comfortable for the road and more in keeping. They have a cage and harnesses by choice and a full fire system. The car has a modern fuel tank and fire wall. On the Austin 7 the VSCC ask for a fire extinguisher, a battery master switch, and a sticker to show where the ignition switch is. They give it a good check over and things like the sump plug has to be lock wired and the fuel filler safe. Some strap in and some fit a roll hoop but its rare. A chest protector of the type horse riders use is not unusual. I used to ask those who looked and questioned the lack of belts as to which bit they wanted to share an accident with. I used to think of it as "a big go kart" or "no worse than a horse". The biggest fear is locking wheels and flipping but driving standards are higher than - say - 750MC Stock Hatch which is a bit more "BTCC". Part of the appeal of historics is that most people are there for the car first and mutual care and respect is at a high level - people give each other space. When I first went to watch the VSCC was still sports jackets and a cigar on the grid. In 35 years its now full face helmets and a full race suit and gloves. Its a spectrum. Spending a day with marshals at a meeting counts for a signature. David Title: Re: KENNEDYS WIN MODENA CENTO ORE CLASSIC 2014 Post by: chriswgawne on 19 June, 2014, 09:46:28 PM Richard,
Ref your earlier post, 'Is it still the case that racesuits etc can be re validated with a 'check over' and new label from the maker?', I think not as todays racesuits have labels (usually by the zip at chest level) AND embroidered FIA Certificatrion (on the outside of the suit at the rear of the collar). Bit difficult to update the embroidery. Chris |