Lancia Motor Club

Does anyone know hown many right hand drive 1.6HF/Lussos  818.741s  were made and how many sold in the UK? Total production  1970 - 1973  was 3,690. Can't find the answer anywhere.

According to an article in C&S in September 1991 (co-authord by Peter Gerrish) between 400-500. I knew I had read it somewhere, just had to find it !

Excellent,thanks for that,shall log it into the dark recesses of the barely relevant file. ::) ::)

According to the bible "La Lancia"
818.740/741 were produced between 1970-1972 from Chassis Number 1001- 3600 total for RHD & LHD, so coupled with the fact that he knows what he's talking about ! Peters' figure for RHD looks pretty good.
 
One small error in my 1994 edition of "La Lancia is that it lists 818-740/741 as Fulvia Sport, which is obviously wrong, just checked the 2006 edition and this error has been carried over.

Brian Hilton
8227 8)

at the risk of pointing out the obvious, but some of this collective infomation doesn't add up. if the chassis numbers run from 1001 to 3600, then there weren't 3690 produced--there were only 2600 produced. that said, it's still possible that there were 400-500 818.741s produced; this would represent 15%-19% of the total production--not an unbelievable percentage.

just re-checked Weerninck: 818.740/741 chassis numbers run from 1001 to 4690, so the production number of 3690 is indeed correct. this means that 400-500 RHD represents about 11%-13.5% of the total; pretty credible.

I presume that not all of the 400/500 RHD variants were sold into the UK,presumably some went to other world markets?

But how many were red like mine? ;D ;D

Definitely some Fanalones were sold in Australia, and I think there is at least one SA S2 1600 in the UK (low headlamp model). So these two would seem likely suspects. Not large numbers I imagine.

Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works, but the 3690 figure is shown against 818.540/541, In La Lancia this is shown as a 2nd series 1600 HF, 1969-1972 (does this make it a series 1?) it also shows 818.740/741 as a second series Sport, which it isn't.
So, are they both 2nd series, which would alter the figures?

Brian Hilton
8227 8)

Actually, as you've previously pointed out the figures in La Lancia are screwed up (I think that's the technical publishing term); they're better sorted in Weerninck's The Lancia Fulvia and Flavia, A Collector's Guide (which is what I quoted earlier), and they're correctly sorted in Altorio, as follows:

1.6HF (S1 'Fanalone') 818.540/541: starting chassis 1001, 1258 produced (+ a later 20, all 818.540 for works use).
1600HF (S2) 818.740/741: starting chassis 1001, 3690 produced.
Sport 1.6 (S2 Zagato): 818.750/751: starting chassis 1001, 800 produced.

In Apr 1996 C&SC, Martin Buckley reports that 30 RHD Fanalones (818.541) were produced as 'Lusso' models (bumpers and metallic paint), but doesn't note how many total RHD Fanalones or 1600HFs (818.751) were produced. BTW, if you think it's tough to find RHD production figures, try finding out how many Lussos (either S1 or S2) were produced. I'm entirely sure that both eyore and Neil Cundy are correct: not all RHD cars (either 818.541 or 818.741) were shipped to the UK; Oz and SA both received some.

But let's not start on colours, shall we?

Actually, as you've previously pointed out the figures in La Lancia are screwed up (I think that's the technical publishing term); they're better sorted in Weerninck's The Lancia Fulvia and Flavia, A Collector's Guide (which is what I quoted earlier), and they're correctly sorted in Altorio, as follows:

Heartly chastised ;D I shall immediately consult my Lancia Fulvia & Flavia A collectors Guide, & my Lancia Fulvia HF by Enzo Altorio, have a bit of a problem with that one as my Italian is abysmal :o
It all gets very confusing!

As my copy of "Lancia Fulvia Flavia, Flaminia by Le Auto Classiche gives the same figures as The collectors Guide & Lancia Fulvia HF, I think perhaps were about as near as were likely to get!

As for Rogers' how many Red ones like his, pick a number out of the hat (Lancia Baseball Cap) & defy anyone to prove you wrong ;).

Brian Hilton
8227 8)

I would guess there are many more red ones around now than there were then - rather like Bugattti Type 35B's. 125 built , unfortunately only 485 survive !  ;D

Oh, Neil has it completely right, just as I always say when asked about my Fanalone: there were 1,278 built, of which 2,000 survive...

And I do sympathize with Brian--my own Italian is barely passable enough for the Altorio. fFrtunately, the production figures and specs are easy to translate. And, of course, the pictures are in English.

Cheers, Ed

at the end of the day who knows how many they really built, for example according to Lancia they built 1229 Lancia 2000HF coupés which would make the last chassis number 2229 but I had one with a chassis number 2307!!

If you think working out chassis number was difficult...try working out how many variante 1016 engines they made!

Homologation rules stated that 500 examples had to be made for Group 4.

Weerninck's The Lancia Fulvia and Flavia states 610 engines were Variante 1016. Brian Long in his book ‘Sporting Lancia Coupes’ on p167 “…the 1,6HF was originally homologated with the variante 1016 engine”

So which of the 500 built before the car was homologated in October 1969 is anyones guess if indeed 500 were ever built.

I do know the 1st 100 (or so...can't really trust Lancia figures) 1,6 HF's were in Amaranto Montebello with the longitudinal stripes :-)

m!

Well, in my previous post I did warn us against dragging the colours into this. It's not just the '1st 100' figure that we can't really trust. It's much worse than that.

The 1.3 HF/1.6 HF brochure that the factory used to introduce the 1.6 HF (n. 8799353 - 10/1969) clearly mentions the classic colour scheme for the 1.3HF:
"The 1.3 HF version differs from the Rallye S coupe only for the lack of bumpers and for the painting schemes: Amarante Montebello with longitudinal yellow and blue stripe."

However, on the subject of 1.6 HF colours, it says this:
"Moreover, the 1.6 HF coupe is supplied in the colours: race red, La Plata red, Escoli grey, Jamaica blue and Longchamps bronze."
In other words, only one non-metallic color, Rosso Corsa--not Amarante Montebello. And no mention of stripes.

It only gets better from there. There are two 1.6 HFs illustrated in the brochure: a 'standard' HF in red, and a 'lusso' in grigio escoli metallizzato. The red 'standard' version has no yellow-blue-yellow stripe, and it has body-colored--not black--plastic wheel arches.

The 'lusso' has black wheel arches, and it has rear badging in the form of the standard chrome "Lancia Fulvia" at the right, but to the left is a horizontal bar with "1600 HF" in blue and yellow (in other words, the S2 "1600 HF" badge), rather than the chrome script "rallye 1,6 HF".

Now this could just be a matter of a introductory brochure not matching production reality (wouldn't be a first, that). Of course, this brochure wasn't issued until October 1969; 1.6 HF production had already begun. Indeed, it had already received its Gp. 4 homolgation, which presumably means that 500 (or so) had already been produced. Still, it's possible that the car in the photos (851447 TO) is actually a pre-production prototype, as the other official factory photographs I've seen all show stripes.

Must stop now; my head hurts. I'll just leave you with one further question: do the 'teardrop' bumper bracket covers mount large end up or large end down? About half the official factory photos show one thing, and the other half...

  I feel the Anoraks coming out ;D

The urban myth of "500 v1016's" was subject to much debate (and some of it informed too !) here (http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_fora/read.php?f=10&i=1101&t=1101) and here (http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_fora/read.php?f=10&i=1051&t=1051). I can certainly guarantee that an absolute maximum of only 499 were built ! I have read somewhere on viva-lancia a quote from an ex-mechanic that less than 100 V1016's of all types were built (can't find it at the moment). Given the law of averages if 500 were built, one of every three cars should be a v1016. I believe outside of the factory cars only 2 genuine v1016's are known in Europe ?

Hey, I gave fair warning about dragging colours into this!

We were having a perfectly civil, if utterly unresolvable discussion about production numbers, RHD, variante 1016, reference source reliability, &c. But someone just couldn't resist throwing down the old Amaranto Montebello gauntlet...

The thing that's bugging me...

I went to a Lancia meet a couple of weeks ago with a few Fanalone's present and they all had the colour on the cam cover wrong. I also saw the same thing happen in a copy of c&sc on a Jamacia blue(?) Fanalone recently? The blue is too dark! I've also seen a Final Edition EVO2 with the stripes the same wrong blue.

What I want to know is where are they getting this colour from?

Also, I've seen a Fanalone in what I think must be HF blue (the same light blue as the stripe) I was told that only 2 were made in that colour!

I've also heard the figure of 20 (approx) series 1 1,6HF's being produced in RHD but I couldn't verify this I'm sorry.

oh...

and I forgot to add

I think that Final edition red is Amaranto Montebello

:-)

...and why not!

Anoraks, how very dare you !! I'm afraid I totally resemble that remark.


Casually flicking through my collection of fulvia books and manuals I note that 87% of the photos that show the said offending item have them fat end up, but the TAVS show it the other way up !!! Poke Yoke had obviously not reached Italy in the 60's, and the installation drg obviously did not have TOP & BOTTOM on it  ;D

Now, if any other of us perfectly normal Fulvia owners could let me know what the script font is for the minor dials so that I can restore mine I would be eternally grateful, as I would hate that it destroys my ownership experience.

I should think basic Latin would be OK or Times Roman of course
<
'the colonel'
(and yes I have a Fulvia as well as the Gamma's)

Oi...I didn't say that  ...  :-X  ;D

Do you mean for the gauges Neil ?

I wouldn't use latin or Times Roman if I were you, you know, of course, the colonel is very very drunk! :p

You want to keep them in Italian I suppose as well? Couldn't you use the cluster from a series 2 car? I'm sure in Italy you could source a series 1 cluster if you wanted to, or maybe it's just me?

...And they do come up on ebay!

Oh, great. We weren't digging the hole deep enough just discussing the body colours? Now you want to drag the stripes in as well? Fine.

First, the 'lusso' version of Fanalone was indeed available in Jamaica blue metallic. Second, the Integrale Final Edition isn't the 1.3 HF Amaranto Montebello; colors with the same name changed codes over time. My Glasurit swatch book has no less than 3 different codes for Rosso Corsa, depending upon what year your Rosso Corsa is from. Same with Blu Lancia.

But to our main point: I have no doubt that plenty of stripes are the wrong color (honestly, I wouldn't put a lot of money on mine being correct--either on the bonnet or the cam cover).

But the stripe color is NOT Azzurro HF--at least not according to any of those realible sources (LOL). Azzurro HF is Lechler 8073; the blue stripe is Lechler 8076. Naturally, I only have the Glasurit swatches (which of course don't cover the stripe colors circa 1969); I don't have the Lechler swatches. So I don't have a precise idea of how much darker the stripe is relative to Azzurro HF, but it's not the same--it's darker. Remember, the stripes aren't necessarily 'color-coordinated' with Lancia paint colors; they're (allegedly) the colors of the City of Torino.

I'll go back to my headache now.

Ed

And I thought the carefully researched Argento Nevada colour, with a feint greenish tint, on my 1967 Fulvia Sport was seen by some as controversial – but now I understand how seriously these issues are taken. Wow.

Colin

Blimey, and I thought Ypsilon Kaleidos colours were complicated!

I warned you, Anoraks abound :o

I have a set of original Fanalone Homologation Papers, in Italian of course. I will happily lend them to any of you who can make a better attempt than me at deciphering the information.

I so love it when I'm informed that the stripe and cam cover colours on my Fanalone are wrong. In my defence, I researched them very carefully when repainting 10 years ago and gave up in the end so diverse was the opinion.

As far as I was and remain concerned, CUC 20H is one of the 20 - 30 right hand drive Fanalones produced, turned into a rally car by Barry Waterhouse and campaigned in his inimitable style. I'm also totally nonplussed by those who wag their heads and sagely inform me that large chunks of the bodywork have been replaced. I've seen the car upside down, stripped to bare metal, I've seen all the welds, it's had a hard life!

I've never been a stickler for total originality and certainly no concourse man. For me its all about driving as indeed it was for Tony Sieler (South African Lancia aficionado) when he drove CUC 20H last year.

And you so do not want to know what the much admired ochre colour on my Dilambda is! :-[

Robin.

DiLamdaman  :)

There's fab article in a magazine (car & car conversions me thinks  ???  that has your car. I got my copy from ebay but if you want I will photocopy it for you or perhaps send you the link on ebay when it becomes available but you probably have it already.

My car is in Italy safely garaged. My brother overtook my only other garage in UK so I can't use that until he vacates it but what I did the last time I was with her to take some of the paint off the cam cover to use as a sample for my paint guy to make a copy of. The paint on the cover is peeling anyway and I don't think it have ever been repainted.  When I have the right colour, I will let you know perhaps it can be recreated elsewhere. Strange thing I noticed though, where I took the paint off I have both colours on both sides.

Fortunately, although my car is race prepared - not to group 4 or anything like that - it hasn't has quite the hard life as yours although I'm really happy that CUC has a great home now :-) she certainly has got a very good history which is important with these cars.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread a touch  ::)  I feel that unless you ask Lancia directly and I'm sure there was a means by asking FIAT about chassis numbers & the like, they are the only people who really know about how many 740/1 or 540/1 cars there are. I can't remember quite how to do it so  maybe someone here know and could let us know?

The homologation papers (3006?) I have and can translate to a certain degree aren't really very much help as they homologate the car as a 115CV not 132CV - which would have been nice but off he top of my head I think there were a few 'suspect' items like the cams and the wheels.

Whatever the colour of the Dilambda - it's GORGEOUS!!!!

I've also seen what I think may be Fulvia Sport Competitzione in a alsolutely gorgeous lime green. Without having checked, I don't know what that colour is. The guy I bought my car from was a member of HF club Italy and I have a photo of him in his HF (sky) blue? car - what other colour could it be? and his friend with the Fulvia Sport - both LHD I'm afraid :p

Brian, it's less a matter of trainspotting than of trying to get the cars right. At least right enough to satisfy ourselves.

I don't think any of us would bother with either arcana or archaeology if there were even one source that had information that wasn't compromised by the inconvenient presence of physical evidence to the contrary. Or evidence that is itself so contradictory to make any definitive assertion impossible. Doesn't help, of course, that the factory lied through their teeth with anything involving homologation of the cars for competition. Doesn't help either that their record-keeping doesn't actually merit that term.

I also don't think any of us would bother with these arguments--we'd happily just get on with it--if we knew in any given case just what to get on with. People like Neil Cundy are really trying to do a proper restoration without benefit of a genuinely accurate map. That he’s succeeding as well as he is seems to me as testimony to the benefits of some latent anorak tendencies. Further, if none of us points out incorrect or contradictory information, then that incorrect information is endorsed by mere repetition.

I don't have any interest in passing judgment on what anyone decides to do with their car. I don't think anyone here is aiming for Villa d'Este or Pebble Beach (pace, Neil). My own car would never qualify; it’s a non-original color (which occasionally bothers me, but not nearly enough to correct at this point) and it has some incorrect equipment, such as Weber DCOEs (which I wouldn’t change back to those crap Solexes at any point). But even if I’m entirely prepared to live with something that’s wrong, I do at least want to know what’s correct. As much as reasonably possible. I’ll zip up that anorak now.

Ed

Ops - sorry FanaloneMan, all fingers and thumbs when I quoted that !
The minor dials from S2 have pictures not script, so no good, I have tried to get some from ebay ( I have a spare but it is no better than mine (i.e. half the script missing or damaged) - but I keep my eyes open.
Ed you are right when you talk about Pebble Beach standards, to me that is the automotive equivalent of plastic surgery and I don't have a polishing fetish ! Then it will get driven.

Back on topic, when I bought my car the owner who had many other cars (including an ex-works Fanalone) and seemed well connected, was quite insistent that that a) I wasn't a dealer and b) it would stay LHD. Neither a problem to me but why LHD ? Because, he said there is an ex-pat Italian in Australia who has been doing a tidy business taking LHD from Italy, converting them to RHD and selling them in Australia and Japan - not huge numbers but half a dozen or so over the years. No idea if this is true but he was sure.

One of the six superb Fulvia Coupes on display at the Covent Garden Piazza gathering last Sunday was Ian Collier’s RHD 1.6HF ‘Fanalone’, RMA 349H - looking absolutely lovely in ‘Jamaica Blue’. This is surely one of the 20 (or 30?) original RHD cars.

What many would not have known is that prior to restoration this car was used competitively in the 1970s by Dave Scheldt. Here are two pictures of the same car being driven by Dave – the first at a Goodwood sprint meeting and another in the next post, racing somewhere.

Perhaps we need to start a new thread – maybe ‘Fulvias then and now…’ as a space to exhibit old and newer photos? More anon.

Colin   

And now the second:

Super photo's. I know of three RHD Fanalone's in the Midlands (all genuine). For a bit of money I think we could get the info from the DVLA of what was originally sold.

Niel, that story is indeed true. About a year ago, before I bought my Fanalone, I was in contact with a fellow in OZ who was selling an S2 1600HF whose chassis number indicated it was LHD. Except that it wasn't. It had been converted to RHD, but was presently being restored, and the owner was certain it could be converted back to LHD if I was interested. I wasn't.

More recently, I've been in contact with another owner there who has an RHD Fanalone 'lusso' in Rosso La Plata metallic. That car was originally shipped new to OZ, but apparently turned down by the customer, who had ordered it in 'red', not realizing that red for a 'lusso' could mean the darker metallic red--not rosso corsa. But there's one more original RHD Fanalone for the tally.

...and of course there was a absolutely stunning Fanalone in yellow in OZ that was auctioned recently

wow!!! The link still works  ;D

http://www.shannons.com.au/pages/auctions/lot.jsp?id=Q8UAF1QYEKA955K2#

Thanks FanaloneMan for the offer. I tracked down an original copy of the Car & Car Conversions test on CUC 20H soon after my son acquired the car. Could make a suitable reprint for Viva Lancia! perhaps?

Since then I've collected a number of photos of it when Barry was rallying it, some provided by him. They show just how hard he campaigned it!

I also have a picture of the ex-works, ex-Jolly Club 1.3HF CJW 746H I owned and rallied with CUC in the background at the end of a rally. Last I heard the 1.3HF was being restored by club member Clive Goodsell but haven't heard anything for several years. Now that was a very special car, a 1.3HF fitted with one of the first piggy-back 5 speed gearboxes.

Robin.

Quote
Brian, it's less a matter of trainspotting than of trying to get the cars right. At least right enough to satisfy ourselves

Ed,
Only Kidding, I'm probably as big an Anorak as any, get me going on Fulvia Series 1 Berlina or Dedra & I'll be at it for hours!
I am also concerned at having details correct, so please forgive me poking fun :(

Brian
8227

Brian

Probably more a case of my being just a bit too sensitive about it. No doubt it's all related to the dent in the wall of my library, about head height, next to my Lancia reference material...

Cheers,
Ed

Here's the link for the Lancia Registro Storico: http://www.lanciaclubitalia.com/registro/index.html

They've been useless at dealing with any of my questions--either in English or Italian, either e-mail or phone--and pretty basic questions they were, too. Perhaps someone else will have better luck, but the Registro doesn't seem to have ready access to the production records--if those even exist at this point.

Ed

Ed,
You accurately describe my experience with Lancia Registro Storico. I gave up in the end. Andrea Nistri told me that the Fulvia production records were lost years ago. Never mind !

Just to back up what Neil says, I was told by Tim Speechley at Fiat Uk, (who tries to answer questions on Lancia Build dates for DVLA Purposes as part of his remit) that the Lancia Fulvia records were lost a long time ago in flooding.

I would like to register my 2c with Lancia Registro Storica & I have the forms, but being a total dumbo since school days in foreign Languages, I can't figure out how to fill it in ???

Brian
8227 8)

Well, that certainly confirms what I've heard elsewhere about the records.

The Registro Storico forms don't appear that tricky, although I haven't yet taken care of them myself. Aside from filling in your info and the vehicle info, you need photos of the front 3/4 view from both sides, and a photo of the chassis plate (actual color photos, not digital, 10 x 15 cm, glued to the reverse of the form--no staples).

You also need a photocopy of the receipt for payment of the fee (for which they give you a postal bank account). But there's a discrepancy in the two sets of instructions; one says the fee for non-members of Lancia Club Italia is 150 euros, while the other says 250 euros (unless I'm missing something). If you're a Lancia Club Italia member, both sets of instructions agree on a fee of 100 euros (of course if you were a member you'd probably be able to read the instructions yourself...)

Ed

Robin-Dilambdaman’s comment about CUC 20H and how his car was campaigned with vigour by Barry Waterhouse reminds me to mention that the Barry Waterhouse website for commemoration is still open: http://www.evocars.com/ . There is one startling photograph here of the Fulvia looking as if it is about to go end-over-end! Robin, if you have more photos, please post them on this site!

The ex-Jolly Club 1.3 HF is I believe now restored and in the proud ownership of LMC member David Leech.

I have more photos of another of Dave Scheldt’s 1.6HFs – I’ll sort these out and post them later.

Colin

Yes, Colin, CUC still bears the scars from that nose dive! in fact when we rebuilt her a new subframe we purchased just would not fit and so we repaired the original.

By the skin of our teeth we got her to the LMC 50th at Cirencester and Barry's reaction (not to mention the expletives) was priceless when he realised that CUC still lived! The engine was smoking badly and he kindly helped Jonathan to rebuild it at his workshop, a fitting testament to the kind of bloke he was.

I will see if I can download some of the photos.

Good to hear that the restoration of my 1.3HF has been completed. I bought it from rally driver Gethin Jones who got it from Pye Records. I sold the car to Roger Perry and he sold it to Ken Cleeve. It then turned up at Richard Thorne Classic Cars before passing to Clive Goodsell.

Sorry! back to topic!

Not sure that it will be of any use but Dott. Enrico Masala was very helpful to me when researching the history of my Dilambda. enricomasala@libero.it

Robin.

Was Jamaica Blue metallic RMA 349H's original color? If so, this means it was originally built as a Lusso. It'd be interesting to know the same about CUC 20H.

In other words, might it be possible to figure out/guess at whether all RHD S1 Fanalones were Lussos? This won't address the question that started this topic, which concerned the total number of RHD S2 1600s, but in any case it's looking less and less likely that any 'quantity' questions can be successfully answered.

Ed

Ed,     In the back of my mind I'm pretty sure that someone I met recently who knew CUC 20H before Barry owned it told me that it was metallic blue. I'll try and contact him.

Robin.

Robin,

Thanks for that. I suspected as much (metallic--not the exact color). Silly of me not to ask earlier, but what about yours?

(And speaking of which, Carlo Stella maintains a register of the Fanalones. Does he have yours? If not, you can contact him at cariocahf@alice.it . Maybe Brian can help you with the translations...)

If your Fanalone is also a Lusso, then the next question is this: does anyone know of a RHD Fanalone that isn't (and wasn't originally) a Lusso? Comparatively few of the LHD Fanalones were Lussos, but were any of the RHD cars not?

Ed

The whole issue of S1 Lusso vs S1 non-Lusso is to me a bit of a red herring. It gives the impression that one is a sporting flyer, the other a more refined version. Marketing cobblers !! The only difference was colour, bumpers and some sound insulation (and mine had no sound insulation in it, but is a Lusso - it will have when it is finished though!!). In the end it was all about choice of colour. If you wanted a metallic one it was a Lusso, if you didn't it wasn't and that was it.
Generally the cars advertised internationally are not Lusso (but many have been changed over their lives), but if you look at local Italian press there are always Lusso models for sale. There were two for sale last week-all looking like Lusso spec (one blue, one silver), and there were two Lussos for sale in France not long ago (both silver).
I would bet that many more Lusso's were made than would be apparent today, but the bumpers were removed and thrown away. Unfortunately the HF rear bumpers are unique (no holes for the number plate light - not fitted to HF's) so difficult to get hold of. This is probably one of the reasons why so many are now bumperless.

The idea that all RHD Fanalones were either metallic blue or silver is interesting. Ian Collier’s information notes about his Fanalone, which was exhibited at Covent Garden last week, describe his car as: “Fulvia 1.6HF Series 1 Fanalone RMA 349H. One of approximately 30 right hand drive cars imported into the UK between 1969 and 1970, finished in either Jamaican Blue or Grigio Escoli (silver)”.

Colin

The one at Covent Garden was rather lovely, interesting topic on the colours available, how about multliple coloured Fulvias? In the mid 80s my now wife and I went on a treasure hunt in Herefordshire which had a number of Fulvias present including mine and one Fanalone in two metallic shades.  The lower half in darker colour and upper half in silver, I have an old photo which has been scanned more recently, it has been heavily cropped to keep the size of the file to a minimum.  The registration is ALR 8H for reference, any one here?

 

That's true, when we restored CUC 20H the best we could do was to have the holes in a 1.3 S1 bumper welded up and polished by a stainless steel catering equipment manufacturer!
 

I seem to remember that it had a metalic dark brown lower half and was for sale by the lady owner at an AGM just before we bought CUC, so around 1995.

Im pretty sure that it belongs to a club member who lives very close to me in Lewes East Sussex.

Robin.

Neil,
I wouldn't take issue with any of that. My purpose is to try to figure out what the factory made; I would completely reject any notion of there being a substantial difference between non-lusso and 'Lusso'.

I believe that the 'Lusso option' was nothing other than a homologation ploy--the factory wanted to homologate the cars with as little weight as possible, but was afraid that they couldn't sell enough of them as street cars without bumpers and with plastic windows. And as far as I can tell, most of the street cars had glass windows, whether 'Lusso' or not.

Somewhere (one of the sales brochures?) I've read that carpet was an option for 'Lusso's, but I don't imagine many chose that. Sound insulation could only have made a marginal difference. When I replaced my rubber mats, I added Dynamat, but I can't swear it made a difference. What I did discover, however, was some original sound deadening mat on the firewall, so I strongly suspect that most street cars had sound deadening, whether 'Lusso' or not.

And a lot of Fulvias, Fanalones and otherwise, seems to have lost their bumpers ('rally car envy'?). Personally, I would have kept them if mine had them. It's hard to buy a Fanalone to one's own custom spec, so I lept at the first one to present itself, but my ideal would have been an LHD version of yours: a 'Lusso' in grigio escoli.

In any case, I don't think there's an ounce of difference in character between the S1 'Lusso' or non-lusso--a few ounces difference in bumpers, but none whatever in character.


We do know that some RHD cars were produced in other colours (the aforementioned RHD Rosso La Plata 'Lusso' in Australia, for one). Do we know that all the UK RHD Fanalones were Blu Jamaica or Grigio Escoli? If so, that might be down to the UK concessionaire ordering what they thought would be the most marketable colours. 'Two-tone' cars would seem to be another matter altogether.

Ed

Re the 2 tone Fulvia. I may be wrong , but I think it used to belong to club member Sue Rubens,who used to live in Wales / Chesire, i think she moved down to the brighton area a few years ago, that would tie in with the Lewes sighting. Roger.

Ed,
Totally agree with you - mine may have had carpet in but having looked at it, it was carpet in the loosest description of the word, held up to the window i can see right through it ! Trying to figure out what the factory made is an admirable aim, one that you, I and I am sure others share. Will we get there.... !

But it will be fun trying !!

My daughter asked today "are we a good family because we have a Lancia?"!!! I said yes, because we have taste, standards and we don't comprimise ( a matter of opinion I suppose  ;D.)

"What is compromise Daddy ?" Try explaining that to a 3 year old !

Ah well, back to the grind on Monday .........

ALR ***H was the subject of a magazine article I think and was Jamacia Blu. I'm not at home but the number rings a bell. I'll check and update.

I was told that 'lusso' models were fitted with glass door windows and that was the only way to tell. Bumpers were because of the UK market. Lusso's in Italy were mostly without bumpers.

Another point about the 'lusso' would be the windscreen trim. Some cars, even the (later) works ones  have it. Others don't. Just for the record mine doesn't have windscreen trim and has a plexiglass rear screen. The door glass is glass.

Consulting the original factory brochures may not be entirely reliable (with Fanalones nothing seems entirely reliable), but these seems to suggest that all 'Lusso's were issued with bumpers. Neil correctly noted that many of these have been removed over the years. I don't think it's impossible for it to be true, but do you know for a fact that Italian Fanalones were mostly issued without them? or are you surmising this from the observation that most don't have them now?

Also based upon the brochures, Fanalone 'Lusso's (at least early ones) had no windscreen trim--just the rubber gasket. The S2 1600HF Lussos had windscreen trim, whereas the S2 1600HF non-Lussos did not. Separate topic: do non-Lusso S2s exist outside the factory brochures, or was this another homologation ploy to allow those extra 20 Fanalones to be built?

Glass was homologated for all Fanalones in one of the homologation revisions. I suspect that most Fanalones left the factory with all glass. But I have no hard evidence for this; it's also possible that many cars issued with plastic have had it replaced with glass over the years. In any case, at least some non-Lussos were issued with all glass.

All I can say to Neil's assertion that it will be fun trying to sort all this out, is that he obviously shares my perverse sense of humor.

Ed

Another dip back into the archive and here are three more photos, taken as digital camera snaps of pages from Dave Scheldt’s garage-abused photo album (with Dave’s permission I should add). This is another Fanalone, 93 MT also raced by Dave in the 1970s. The two-tone colour scheme is red and white. See this and the next two posts:

And another:

And one more for now:

Nice pics Colin. Looking at the pics ,it looks like the bonnet has a slight bulge in it very near the 9 on the number plate, if so I am curious why its there, Regards Roger. ??? Just a quick thought, but was it running dellortos, which have the accelerator pumps on top, i have heard they get very close to the bonnet. But still confused. ???

Roger

Don't know about Dellorto's but certainly 45 Webers on one of the supposed Gp4 manifolds get VERY close to the bonnet. I raised my bonnet stops on the front valance a bit and ground down the top of the brass nut that covers the Weber inlet filter, to get some clearance.   So may be the car was fitted with Webers.


Michael

I think Michael's got it exactly right--it's to clear the carbs

I'm running Webers as well--only 40s, but I also have the brass nut beveled on the front carb, as the clearance is very tight because of the carb height and the manifold angle. I believe that 45 Dell'ortos are even a bit taller, as are 48 Webers (some of the later factory cars ran 48s); both of these probably need a bulge worked into the bonnet. If you look at contemporary photos of competition Fulvias, you'll notice that a number of them have a bonnet bulge to clear the carbs.

Ed

Thanks, I meant to say 45 dellortos, as i will be looking for webers for my 1600hf, as i have the manifold and a very modified head and cams, and extractor manifold and pipe, all going to be fitted, when i need to take the head off. Glad to see my eyes are still ok, and was not imagining seeing the bulge in the bonnet. While we are talking about bulges in bonnets, i remember someone saying to me at a car show where i had my MGC Roadster on display, "Why's your bonnet got a bulge in it mister"? My reply was so I can shut the bl***y thing!!  ;D Nuff said

I think you may be looking for some kind of perfection in bodywork in looking for a purpose made bulge in the bonnet. I’ll ask Dave, but I suspect the truth is ‘93 MT’ was just a bit battle scarred. This poor quality photo might explain why:

And here’s a photo of when ‘93 MT’ seems to be wearing different colours! Or is it yet another Fanalone that was similarly being given a hard time?

Nice pics again Colin. But have you any where he is driving competively ;) ;)

Really enjoyed these photos. 

A friend who's done a few fairly mild rallies in his Fulvia 1.3S was thinking of getting a modern Pug205 as concerned the old girl wasn't going to be up to frequent or harder rally action.  These photos rather put the lie to that one!!  My own view was that I'd rather be in a Fulvia than a Pug should the worse happen, and if things were going well would rather be in a Fulvia than a Pug, and when it came to doing the prep work I'd rather work on a Fulvia than a Pug.  He passed up the Pug and is focused on his Fulvia...

David

Another one saved from himself!! ;)