Lancia Motor Club

For anyone who is interested I am currently fully restoring a 1969 Fanalone. As I have have found it very difficult to get hold of photos of the important bits of the car - that are actually useful other than as wall paper, I have taken to putting various of them on a web site for others to use if they wish. As I have been going along I have taken 100's of photos - only a selection are shown on the site so if you think I may have something of use please PM me.
Currently the bodyshell is fully stripped and about to go to have the metalwork done and be re-sprayed - so all the photos are of the stripping and cleaning process - nothing yet from inside engines or gearboxes I'm afraid, that comes later !

http://www.fanalonerestoration.com

Maybe this will be of use to someone as, as I said I have had great difficulty finding good photos that help - although there has been plenty of good advice and information on Viva-Lancia

Some great photos there and very thorough, how long did it take you to complete the disassembly and stripping off the paint and panels?

I wish digital cameras had been available when I helped in a partial restoration job of my S2 1300 in 1987, which took about a month and was repainted in that period, same colour and also LHD.  My car could now do with some more attention to get it back on the road.   :(

I started in November and have spent about 15-20 hrs a week since then, so somewhere in the region of 500 hrs. The split is about 200 hrs to disassemble and 300 hrs to strip the paint - it has been re-sprayed twice during it's life. Originally silver, then red, then blue which prolonged the paint stripping a bit because of the thickness of the paint and filler.

I have now got the finished bodyshell back in the garage. it looks superb, and i am extremly pleased with the results. Next job is to remove the subframe and start to get stuck into that and the suspension. Here are a couple of photos - the bodyshell work and painting was done by Wilkinsons Coachbuilders in Derby whom I can highly recommend. It shared the workshop with three Bugattis, an AM DB5 and DB4GT, so visits were very interesting !

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/Wilkinsons/images/dscf08531.jpg)

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/Wilkinsons/images/dscf08541.jpg)

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/01_Engine/images/dscf0843.jpg)

I've just discovered this thread and wanted to congratulate you on a fantastic set of photographs. They lay a Fulvia's complex innards bare as I've never seen them before. Very useful, and thank you. My worry now is what the unseen parts of my S2 HF are like...probably best not to go there. John S

Thanks for your comments - I agree, the best thing is to protect your shell and make sure you don't have to go as far as we have !!

Wow! great set of pics Neil. Brings the memories flooding back of when 10 years ago, my son Jonathan, rebuilt CUC 20H, the ex Barry Waterhouse Fanalone. You're obviously doing a thorough job and it will undoubtedly be a terrific car. Good luck.

Top job Neil! Well done!

Stage 2 "the subframe" is complete.
List of jobs done:
Steering box stripped, thrust bearing replaced, idler box stripped
wheel bearings stipped and re-packed
all ball joints re-packed and boots replaced
brakes stripped, calipers bored out and sleeved with stainless steel
subframe components shot blasted (aluminium bead blasted) then stove enamelled
front spring stripped and re-assembled including repairing the spring retaining brace - the welds had split probably because the 4 long bolts had come loose. Compressing the spring to torque up this brace would not have won us any health and safety awards but was achieved  ::).
New suspension bearings made by Huib at Viva-Lancia (S1's have bearings not Metalastic bushes) - these really are super and very accurate - I asked for a variety of shims to set them up correctly but ended up needing none.
A set of Spax shock absorbers finished it off. It is worth knowing that the part numbers listed by Spax would seem to be incorrect, the difference is in the open length:

G434 Front    357 (as listed)
G3312 Front    332 (as required)
 
G677 Rear    441 (as listed)
G3318 Rear    426 (as required)

See this thread (http://www.viva-lancia.com/lancia_fora/read.php?f=10&i=2210&t=2210)

Some pictures:

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/Stage_2_complete/images/dscf1210.jpg)

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/Stage_2_complete/images/dscf1217.jpg)

For better pictures than these ridiculus icon's (cannot change the size settings on this site) I have put them on here (http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/Stage_2_complete/index.html)

Stage 3 - the rear suspension, starts next weekend !

Dear Neil     Nice pictures as usual - i'm taking it that you have layed in your brake and fuel line runs already, (i.e. before fitting subframe assy) and that I just can't identify them in the pics?  Chris

Thanks for the update Neil, great progress. Looking forward very much to seeing the finished product.

A few jobs to do to my Fanalone, should be out and about this year but probably not Goodwood, planning on taking the Dilambda along but not on the track!

Thanks for the comments gents ! Yes the pipes are there, you can just see the fuel pipes peeking out from under the battery tray. Actually at a later stage they will all be replaced - the subframe fitting is a dry run, but because it went well I have decided to leave it in for the time being and concentrate on the rear suspension ( I needed a change of scenery !) but it will come out again for repiping and to have the drive train installed. I was surprised at how relatively straight forward the subframe was - the biggest frustration I had was fitting the spring clips to the lower supension ball joint boots. I gave up in the end and made new retaining tab rings with a slightly smaller ID that would clamp the boot lower retaining lip (as the uppers do) and held them off the ball joint retaining plate with a washer (there is no recess for the lip to sit in on this plate, so without washers the tab rings compress the lip too much causing damage and the potential for it to pop out).
Still plenty to do but small bites will eat the elephant !!
Neil

PS: A note on the shock absorbers - whilst I know these figures ( the "as required") are correct for a 1600 (both series) I do not know if they hold true for saloons and other coupes. I would suggest that if anyone is thinking of changing that they consult the manuals and measure the extended length (and bush dim) before committing.

will you be at race retro?

should have my racing fulvia there.

   The reason that I mentioned the pipe runs was just to let you know how much easier it is to tweak them to fit really well with the subframe removed. You mention that you may replace them later - I strongly advise you to do "it" while the subframe is next out! The good news is that, being l.h.d. you don't have the difficulty of routing said pipes past steering "column". The main fuel pipe normally being particularly critical just here. One of the other snags I have picked up on several occasions is where this same cluster of pipes pass between the subframe rear crossmember and the monocoque as they continue toward the rear of the vehicle - the clearance here can vary from vehicle to vehicle, and sometimes a chafe is visible here with subframe movement (usually on the  main fuel pipe!)     I'm assuming this is your first Fulvia restoration, you seem to be doing a good job.     On the damper front..... only my opinion here of course, but I wouldn't be too concerned about the extended length of your Spax dampers - it's the fully compressed dimension you should be worried about -             All the after-market front dampers I have come across have been "generous" with the extended dimension, the worse consequence of this being that the drive shaft makes contact with the already scolloped part of the subframe when the suspension is at full droop - so something which will happen when you jack the car up or(most commonly) when you yump the car over a bridge etc - (duration quite short!).  However, *unless Spax have revised their open/closed dimensions since I had cause to investigate some 18 years ago, their compressed/closed dimension was at least 6mm more than the equivalent Koni front damper, and even more when compared with the several std equipment dampers.   This is of no concern when fitted to an S2-on car, but becomes a potential problem on an S1 car because of its lower suspension settings - to explain :- when the front suspension goes to full bump, (something which it does far more regularly than full droop) the Spax dampers* will be very close to, or even at, full compression. Not such a terrible thing you might think, but, depending on the state of your bump stop, and not forgetting that the most compliance of this stop will happen on first contact by design, at the least the car could display quite undesirable handling traits as you encounter this more-"sturdy"-than-intended bump condition, or at worst (due to the rather inboard mounting point of the lower damper eye) a distorted/bent lower wishbone tube. Of course you would have to be driving in this style for some time before this last bit could happen, but I have come across it. Finally Neil, as far as fitment of these Spax dampers to Sedan or Zagato, apart from the aforementioned, they are (in my experience) fully interchangeable dimensionally anyway. I do remember there were a few tolerance problems with bush widths at the back on occasion, but it was nothing that couldn't be fixed with a bit of "dressing".  Of course the Sedans did have options for extension/compression resistance settings that differed from the Coupe/Zagato, but that is a whole different can of terms!  Chris

The Body colour is that silver or do I see more blue ?

Some responses required on my behalf !
I cannot be at Race Retro - other commitments unfortunately but I do want to see your car (AGM?).

Thanks for the good advice Chris - my first full scale restoration, but I have been around restorations all my life and have owned Fulvias for 20 years, the only aspects I have never attempted before are a transmission rebuild (although my father has) and an interior re-fit so feel pretty comfortable about the rest. Regarding the dampers the worry (maybe needlessly) is that if the travel is too long - with the damper in the neutral position - in bump the damper internals become the limit rather than the rubber bumpstop, which can damage the damper and /or depending on the relative strengths bend the bottom arm, as you say. Spax confirmed this was a potential problem with the ones listed and William van der Sman worked with them to get to the new ones. He also suggests that the rear bushes were 10mm too wide - more than a tolerance issue ! The price is the same. So based on that it seemed sensible to go that way.
Thanks for the tips on the piping - it is these types of exchanges that I think are invaluable for the LMC and what I particularly value - good knowledge from someone who has done it before, written down for all to see and learn from. I may be in the minority but I see all the social banter as rather window dressing (important to the fabric but not the raison d'etre). It is this knowledge and advice which should make the LMC the "must join" for Lancia owners - so keep it coming !!

Regarding colour it is Grigio Escoli (metallic grey) -
Lancia codes:   
GL 94-LAN-200
DP 42606
IT 2.463.816
Lechler code :   
1361

This was the original colour and one of the small range of colours available for the Fanalone (see Altorio's book on HF's)

Thanks to all
Neil

Dear Neil Thanks for reply, my turn again  ! quote :- Regarding the dampers the worry (maybe needlessly) is that if the travel is too long - with the damper in the neutral position - in bump the damper internals become the limit rather than the rubber bumpstop, which can damage the damper and /or depending on the relative strengths bend the bottom arm, as you say. Spax confirmed this was a potential problem with the ones listed and William van der Sman worked with them to get to the new ones.                                                                                     Yes, it sort of goes without saying about possible damper damage allthough unlikely as they are quite sturdy in that respect - you could be quite alarmed to learn that a great many vehicles of that era (60s-70s) with even vaguely similiar suspension, often relied on "the damper" to limit the downward travel of said suspension*, there being no easy (or inexpensive) solution to the problem.    * Fulvia included -  I have come across front dampers with the upper threaded post mount detached where it meets (and is electrically welded) to the top of the damper body.  quote:-  He also suggests that the rear bushes were 10mm too wide - more than a tolerance issue !                                                                                                                                               My memory hazy here (as already stated) but it certainly wasn't as much as 10mm then or I would have sent them back!
quote:-Thanks for the tips on the piping - it is these types of exchanges that I think are invaluable for the LMC and what I particularly value - good knowledge from someone who has done it before, written down for all to see and learn from. I may be in the minority but I see all the social banter as rather window dressing (important to the fabric but not the raison d'etre). It is this knowledge and advice which should make the LMC the "must join" for Lancia owners - so keep it coming !!                                                                                                                                                Neil.... this last point..... I'm a bit lost for the right words and I had better pick them carefully!  After your declaring your long term interest in Fulvias, I don't know how we've never spoken before as, lets just say i've been (trying) to help owners for quite a while now...... Perhaps I will P.M. you. As I have stated on many occasion, (often) such is the size and complexity of a problem, that I find it a whole lot easier to "download" advice on the phone. Perhaps I just need a bigger megaphone! I'm sure no offence intended and certainly none taken. Keep up the good work and don't be afraid to take a little bit longer (on the restoration) - health is everything.  Chris

Hi Chris,
Firstly thanks for taking the time to reply. Secondly please be assured that the comments I wrote were not intended to cause offence nor were they directed at anyone inparticular. I just feel that the more techy information and banter (from anyone) on this site the better (hence my comment "keep it coming")- over time I believe it will make the LMC even more important to it's members (and attractive to prospective members). It is impossible for anyone to put all their knowledge down in writing and of course every problem has a context which should be understood before a reply is given.
Anyone who is prepared to give advice by what ever means they feel is appropriate has my support and respect - and that especially applies to those like yourself who allow their name and details to be published.
Again apologies if it offended - certainly not the intention
Regards
Neil

I have been following this thread with interest. Neil’s restoration project looks fantastic and I am full of admiration and envy. Chris’s advice about getting the pipework in before committing the subframe rings true! I replaced the fuel lines on my Fulvia S1 Sport a couple of years ago and it was struggle to get it all through the minimal space between subframe and front edge of floor. In my case I was trying to get in two pipes, one for flow and one for return – this because my car has been modified to take a late-type S2 flow-and-return system.

Not wishing to teach grandmas to suck eggs, but it might be worth questioning whether a Fanalone (presumably all S1) had only flow and no return! If so, it might be worth considering providing two pipes because a fully re-flowing system is likely to be better than a simple one-way system. I use an S1 fuel tank, which has no provision for return and have arranged the return to go via a pipe connector drilled into the tank filler pipe just below the main filler cap. It works well.

Colin   

Dear Colin     Yes, strong TYGTSE undertones here if your post had been addressed to me alone, but i'm glad to say it isnt!, (addressed solely to me) and besides, i've been following a few of YOUR threads and I can see you are quite an expert at it, so why stop now!! (please take with a pinch of  low sodium). It would be nice for Forum readers to learn more about your Zagato special, about the pros and cons of the car, what you have had to do to it etc.       Anyway back to the plot :-   Some late S1 cars were fitted with the "bleed back" fuel return pipe before it became a standard fitment on S2 on.  You'll know(?) that it's a "must have" mod for any Series 1 car that doesn't come with it as standard, it being necessary to prevent the needle valves in the carburettors being constantly subjected to excessive fuel pressure at tickover**, the (mechanical) fuel pump benefits to some extent also. The previous solution to this (standard on 1600's*) being the fitment of a Malpassi Filter King (or equiv).                          If you look carefully at Neil's picture :- Stage 2 dscf1217.jpeg,  Colin, I think you will be able to see that Neil's car is already blessed with a bleedback (smaller) fuel pipe.   * So either way, no need to worry Colin!   ** this can,in the worst case scenario, lead to carburettor flooding.  Best Regards Chris

Apologies in advance if this is a silly question ,but in view of the above post re fuel return does this mod also  apply to my early 1.2 S1 with Solex carbs that I am restoring?

As Chris said, I am blessed with the return pipe. I wasn't aware that the earlier cars never had them - but I have never seen a 1600 without them, including cars earlier than mine - maybe they were the first fitment? Unfortunately the TAV's that I have are not much help in this regard - they just show the twin pipe arrangement with no clue on any break point.
Neil

Neil,

Sorry if I seem to have doubted the thoroughness of your work, which was absolutely not intended! But I note that I am not the first respondent who didn’t look closely enough at the photos to see if at least one pipe is visible!

My car started life as an early S1 Sport 1.3 and I had assumed (wrongly it seems) that all S1 cars needed to be modified to take a return pipe. If it was standard on a 1.6, where does the return feed get back to the tank? Surely not through a pipe connector fitted into the filler pipe, which is how it is done on my car!

Keep it up,

Colin

Far too much apologising on this thread for me !!
The return pipe enters the tank via a boss next to the boss for the supply line, on the off-side underside of the tank. This is different again from what is shown in my TAV's which seem to show the supply line being taken from the top of the fuel sender unit ? When I get to stage 571 (removing the fuel tank) I guess I shall be a bit wiser ! I'll take a couple of photos and stick them up when time permits.
Neil

Dear All Firstly, eyore - yes this mod could be done to your car (as the bleedback pipe was not fitted as standard on your car). The easiest way is to route it in via the fuel sender unit on the top of the tank, there are several ways of doing this - please ring for more details about actual modification to fuel sender as this is a safety related mod as you can appreciate!    Colin - do you know what your car was originally? (this is SO much easier on the phone!) - - - - unless it was an "S" (which could have also had a servo as std etc) then it would have not had a fuel return (bleedback) pipe or the FISPA inline fuel filter/control valve. Your fitment which enters via the fuel sender unit is almost certainly* non std (*this reply to save more lengthy,hard to explain un-ambiguously, rambling by me). As I believe Neil has said, this smaller pipe, when fitted as standard*, normally entered the tank right next to the main feed pipe, and was also soldered in place. (one of the many things to inspect when checking a tank, this soldering can become fractured (particularly the larger pipe) with a predictable result, hard to see if actually fractured and the tank "dry", but fairly easy(and too late!) to find once you "fill her up".  Neil - what year is your car - and have you got a "piggyback gearbox or is it an early two-halves type?   Keep the apologies coming, I say! Chris (with tongue firmly in cheek).*applies to sport and coupe - sedans could have the return pipe routed to the sender unit.

Car was built late 1969 and first registered to a Docter in Rome on 31st Jan 1970 - chassis # 461. It has the piggyback gearbox and standard (Solex 42mm) engine. Recorded mileage is 10,500 km (~7,000 miles). I have been unable as yet to confirm this with the ASI but the condition of car (no wear to interior, brake discs, any components really and the complete absense of damage to the underside) suggest it has had little use. The previous owner (ex-colonel in the Italian Air Force) owned it since the mid 80's and confirmed he hardley ever used it - although he did have an ex-works car as well !!

Very nice too.

Time for another update:
Rear suspension is now finished and installed awaiting setting up when I have a bit more weight in the car.
All items stripped, shot blasted and stove enamelled
springs measured, re-packed and painted
all new bushes (Omicron)
wheel bearings stripped and re-packed
new shocks (Spax)

Generally a reasonably straight foward nut and bolt job although the wheel bearing retaining nuts were a sod to get off. Patience and brute force won the day. A few special tools were made to remove and re-install the bearings and some of the bushes.

A note on the anti-role bar bushes: I found one of them was not a nice fit on the dowled bolt and I had to clean the inner steel sleeve of the bush up with a small stone and a Dremmel. This is important as if they are not free to rotate the bush will tear as it is not designed to work radially. One of mine was badly torn when I removed it because of this (pin had siezed) and there was consequential damage on the other bushes. A small point but if anyone has this to bits easy to check off the car, not so easy on the car !

I have put some new photos up

here (http://fanalonerestoration.com/03_rear_suspension/)

Next jobs are the fuel tank  (clean, interior coat and repaint) and interior, but I am having problems with what to do with some of the dials. The decals need repainting - any ideas welcome.

Regards to all
Neil

Stirling effort!  Well done!

Wonderful! ;D
 to add a couple of sayings,
'If a picture paints a thousand words'

'Where there's a will there's a way'
Re rear springs, what was the state of the spring interleaving like? was it reusable? ???

Great example and guide to those of us who may have to do the same sometime in the future. :) We could do with more of this, very constructive, in more ways than one.

Mind, I'm not sure if I could handle your temporary transport that's parked in the garage ;)

Brian Hilton
8227

Ahh, the Lancia Bambino Coupetta, yes: obviously because of the colour I can only go out when it is dark and it is killing my back, but on the bright side wheel bearings are easier to get hold off and the special tool count is considerably lower. Inevitably though the time will come when I have to give it back to my daughter  ;D

Spring interleaves were fine - a little bit ragged at the ends (a few small holes) but no tares and good were it matters, so I just cleaned them and put them back.
Thanks for the comments - I think I need to do a bit of tidying up, my original intention of annotating each photo has somewhat fallen by the wayside.

Neil

In amoungst restoring the window mechanisms and locks I have made (actually my father in this case !) this little gismo to replace the rather ineffectual S1 windscreen washer systems. It replaces the pull plunger behind the dash, looks exactly the same and works in the same direction - but switches a completely hidden electric washer pump. The complete "box of bits" cost less than £20 and should make for a much better solution. It is a straight replacement and requires very little fitting.

The locks required a bit of work as the pins were worn and burred over, and I still have to make some shims for the female barrel on the drivers side, where there is too much wear on the barrel causing the key to stick.

The window winders are very nicely made, particularly the lovely little clutch mechanism in the winder and are now smooth and solid.

I have done a bit of catching up. There are some more pictures of my brothers bodyshell and some of the door fittings I have been finishing.

looking at the rear suspension pictures I see an engineering technique I am unfamiliar with but possibly a useful tip. In the first picture you are clearly machining the corroded edge of a rear disc with a toothbrush.? Are they now selling steel fibred toothbrushes in the UK for the more akward to remove deposits and if so ,did it produce a good finish on the disc? This may have other useful applications.

and by the way, excellent job. looks really great.

Cracking finish on the discs, specially designed for people with a mouth like Ken Dodd - highly recomended for for large surface area, highly abrasive surfaces !

Sounds lovely, but I can't see any pictures! I can see the earlier ones to do with door catches, but how do I access the ones you now refer to?

Colin

They are on the 03_rear_suspension page. Not new photos but annotated now. The new photos of my brothers car are in Stripped_shell. Sometimes they take a while to load, but they ar all there - honest!

I would dearly love to understand this better, but where is the ‘03_rear_suspension page’? I have searched back on this thread and found lots of good things, but not this. How about re-posting it!

Yes, I have struggled with rear springs, hangers, discs, and dampers and want to know more about how others have coped – probably better than me I am sure.

Colin

10 posts below Colin

By the way Neil, I'll hear nothing said against Ken Dodd. A fine "god" like figure of a man if ever there was one.

Took the calipers off my fulvia for a refurb just yesterday (without the aid of a toothbrush I must admit.)I had managed to break a bleed nipple off flush with the caliper body when trying to bleed the brakes.Bugger.Anyone had the same experience and how terminal could it be.?

Try these:

http://fanalonerestoration.com/03_rear_suspension/index.html
http://fanalonerestoration.com/S2_1600_Bodyshell/index.html

Hope that fixes it.
Neil

Well it can always be drilled out and a threadsert or some such put in - so not terminal. If you can get it on a pedestal drill you would be able to drill the nipple out as far as the thread (not into the thread) and then tap it out with the correct size tap - I have done this few times but you have to able to get the drill in straight and control it. Either way you would have to strip and clean the caliper afterwards. Alternatively can you file a shallow slot in the top and get a small screwdriver in (if its not seized) to rotate it ?
As you say - bugger !

Now I see them! Silly me, I was looking for photos in the text, not a link. Yes, very nice too and now I also see the significance of the toothbrush! Mine doesn’t seem to have the blue plate so probably not a Fanalone - see below:

I fear the wheels on this are an aftermarket "add on" by a previous owner.They were never fitted on production models in that colour.Is this a factory homologated special perhaps as I note the minimal seating arrangement presumably to save weight.?

Neil,

what are you doing with all the minor components in terms of paint/finish .I see the calipers and various other bits and pieces painted in a black paint.Did you clean up the calipers by hand and hand paint them or have them cleaned by some professional process? Generally I have always done it by hand for such jobs  and applied something like hammerite as carefully as I could but the results are variable when hand painting.(will I now be excluded from the forum for admitting to use hammerite?)

Sorry if you already mentioned this somewhere in your text but I didn't see it.   

Most items were shot or bead blasted (depending if they were aluminium or not) - then in most cases stove enamelled (professionally). Brakes were spray painted in brake paint. Some bits were cleaned by hand and degreased etc, but this mostly applies to nuts, bolts and the springs (which I hand painted with coach paint). Anything that needs re-plating, or stainless that needs polishiong is being put in a box until I have a job lot which will then go to Derby Plating to be done as one batch - bit of a pain but this is v.expensive and one batch is the cheapest way of getting in done. Other bits, such a the heater, various small brackets etc I have cleaned by hand, degreased, sprayed with etch primer and used matt black Hammerite.

the blue wheels were only available on the LHD models, so this example must have been converted to RHD at some point.

I wondered if it was prototype F&M Special?! ;)

Scarpia,

Yes it is a lightweight mono-posto and has been modified over the years so I don’t claim originality. It’s basically 1st Series from 1972 and had a tough time with its first 3 female owners up to about 1980. Then it was in dry-store for a while prior to restoration in 2004. This included sanding down and re-lacquering, re-building the steering head with nylon bushes, strengthening the rear-end and fitting new-old-stock wheels. At that time it was also re-badged as Lancia It is currently enjoyed by the third of three new users who take it out on occasional visits.

(Neil, Sorry to have mucked up your thread!)

Colin

No problem ! I didn't see it represented amongst the "100 yrs at Covent Garden" Surely some oversight by the organisers !

Thanks for the explanation Neil, glad to hear that I'm not the only one using Hammerite.
I really had to search for it here in belgium as most shops told me they couldn't sell these types of paint any more due to environmental Legislation apparently. I had to sneak in to a disreputable establishment, and ask for "something for the weekend" which was then produced from under the counter wrapped in a plain brown paper packing....

on the subject of damaged brake nipples one method of removal is to apply heat then ice to the nipple remains [stripped calliper] then use an appropriate LH stud removing tool

sounds like medieval torture but I know what you mean....

read about it in a friends specialist mag

Latest finished job is re-piping the car. All brake and fuel pipes have been replaced (except the main fuel run). All are copper except the main fuel run which is copper/nickle. I left the original in, after cleaning internally with fuel injector cleaner, because CN is difficult to bend without kinking, and trying to get the correct shape off the vehicle is hard. If this was being replaced I would use copper as it is easier to work. As has been mentioned by some on here, the important thing is to ensure that there is enough clearence between the subframe and pipes where they curve under the bulk head. All have been treated with rust killer (Dinatrol) and then painted. All the clips have been lined with rubber to prevent chaffing and vibration and I replaced all the flexibles with Goodridge stainless steel braded lines (these made quite a bit of difference on my brothers car).

Yes - Goodridge/Aeroquip/stainless steel braided are a "must have" on Dunlop equipped cars - a huge improvement even on new O.E. hoses.  Only real disadvantage being that you can no longer clamp off supply to a slave cylinder without damaging internal hose lining.

Good point about clamping the hose, will remember that for later.

Hi Chris,
Are they readily available for my 2c? I did see some up for sale on ebay but the seller couldn't tell me if they would fit ;D

As it happens I have very good brakes on the 2c, last year before setting off for Turin I put it into David Thomas, an Alfa specialist at Codicote near Welwyn Garden City, to fit new pads, check the brakes out, and change the fluid.
When I went to try it next day I'd lost a lot of the pedal, so they left it overnight & the brake fairey must have made a visit, as by the next morning the pedal was mysteriously back & they were the best they had ever been ::)

Brian
8227 8)

According to the TAVs, the part number for the three flexibles is the same for all S1 cars (coupes and saloons), so on that basis I guess the are the same.

Thanks for that Neil.

Brian

I've also run on goodridges since the eighties on the fulvia and still think of them as a "fit and forget" modification .

I remember reading once however (article JR?) that whilst there is a clear performance improvement a possible disadvantage is that you don't see failure of the inner rubber starting to develop so periodic inspection is perhaps worth doing? Not sure how without dismantling the lines and I've never bothered.I suspect the goodridges are the "strongest link" on my car.....

I have been fitting some sound deadening in the last few weeks. I have used a matt black tile on the floor area. It is thin (~2mm), and is the same colour as the interior panels. Importantly when heated with a heat gun it softens and flows into the shape of the panels -so it looks pretty good. It does not have a particularly high insulation level (about 1 db I think), but will prevent any booming. I got it from the local motor factors. For the roof I used a more professional medium - Dynamat Extreme. This is a thick (5mm) bitumen based material with aluminum facing giving about 3db with a high temp adhesive so that it doesn't fall down.

Maybe not in the complete spirit of a Fanalone but it is a Lusso! But I do intend to use this car so a trying to make the cabin a little more refined (in a way that still leaves the interior looking orginal) has always been in my plans.

(http://fanalonerestoration.com/08_Bodyshell_sound_deadening/images/floor.jpg)
(http://fanalonerestoration.com/08_Bodyshell_sound_deadening/images/sill.jpg)
(http://fanalonerestoration.com/08_Bodyshell_sound_deadening/images/roof.jpg)

Things are moving along slowly. After a month trying to recover the original headlining I have had to admit defeat. I cleaned it, repaired it, had new spring loops stiched on but it was just too fragile to re-use. As soon as I started to streach it, it split just about every where (stiching and material). So after a bit of research with my trimmer a very close alternative material was found and the old headlining used as a pattern. As it was not available in the original grey (it was beige) I used vinyl paint from www.woolies-trim.co.uk which is a very close match. All told it has cost me about £120. Hopefully this weekend I will finish the fitting and can then put in the rest of the interior

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/08_Headlining_web/images/dscf2184rev1.jpg)

(http://www.fanalonerestoration.com/08_Headlining_web/images/dscf2187rev1.jpg)

A couple of photos of the fuel tank now it has been stripped, cleaned and repaired. I have coated the inside with tank sealant and the underside with stone guard spray. Just got to repair the gauze filter holder on the tank plug, finish making the gaskets and then it can all go back in.

(http://fanalonerestoration.com/08_Fuel_tank_web/images/dscf2329.jpg)
(http://fanalonerestoration.com/08_Fuel_tank_web/images/dscf2317.jpg)

And also one of the dash as it gradually gets fitted out

A bit more progress. As the veneer on the dash was split, damaged and faded I have stripped it. New veneer, stained and varnished, and some repairs to the plastic backing, and now all abck in for a trial fit.

And a start on the drive shafts. The first one is now split, mostly cleaned and about ready for re-assembly.

Well, the drive-shafts are now finished. A pretty straight forward job but my word is it dirty. Forty year old grease stinks, especially when a 2 year old tries to tip up your degreasing tank!

Getting them apart is just a sharp tap on the inside of the outer CV joint to pop the retaining clip, and a drift through the middle of the outside of the inner CV joint to pop that end. Then (after initial degrease) you can remove the retaining spring clip and withdraw the longitudinal cartridge from the outer end (catching all the balls) and workout how to dissemble the rotational cage. Took me back to my days as class rubics cube champion! With a twist here, a line up there the balls can be popped out one by one, and then with another twist, a turn and a quick pull the cage and star are released.

This is the same at the outer end (with no longitudinal cartridge). Then when all is cleaned and checked for wear, as the good books say, to re-fit simply reverse procedure with some new grease. The stars and cages are interchangeable end-to end, but have a right and wrong way up (if back to front they cannot be rotated), and make sure the you have fitted the spacers on the splines (they ensure the correct depth on the shaft so the circular retaining clip engages correctly in its chamfered recess in the star). With the boots pushed on the shaft can be mated to the star again – I found I had to tighten the retaining spring clips as you have to trap then in the top lead-in and it is a bit of a fiddly job – then give the shaft a good tap and it all clips together.

The outer boot needs a slim line metal band clip or tie wrap so that it doesn’t foul the hub. Inner boots are not easy to get hold of: Omicron advised to try and save them but mine were split (buy a handful of retaining clips from Omicron – they often break when splitting the shaft). Peter Harding got me some from Cavelleto but they are not cheap.

As you can see, one of my cages broke. Although it had signs of fatigue, I suspect I broke it when splitting the outer CV joint from the shaft – probably too aggressive with the hammer – so take a bit of care.

End result is a good as new pair of drive shafts ready to be installed. Now all I need is an engine and transmission to fit them to  ;D

Real labour of love Neil ;D Just as well you're not charging yourself garage labour rates!

Brian
8227 8)

Yep, but I wish I was being payed garage rates  :)

Whilst slowly putting together the drivers door (nothing much on interest there), my father has made a fixing boss for the steering wheel. Taking the existing extension he has set in a nylatron bush with a brass ring in it for the horn circuit and made a lovely retaining boss (out of brass then plated). Fixed in with plated allen bolts it looks just right (IMHO). The bolts are a pain as they all have the makers mark stamped in the head which would not look very nice - so they were all machined down.

Real classy work, as ever ;D

Looks good.


Brian
8227 8)

Thanks for the comment - as ever these projects become family affairs, and in this case it is my fathers work not mine. If you've ever seen his Aurelia you'll know he has high standards  :D

It's been a few weeks since I posted - holidays and other jobs have got in the way, but now after a week cleaning the garage and workshop I have finally stated on the engine. Nothing much found so far but early days (fingers crossed !). Head, sump, water pump and oil filter assembly removed. Engine turns fine, bores look good on first impression. Lots of sludge about (condensation form lack of use I guess). Corrosion has started to get at the water pump housing hose boses, but I think this will be recoverable with some liquid metal.
I'll post some pictures this evening.

As promised some pctures. Not a great deal of interest but the internals of a Fulvia for those who haven't seen. The fourth shows the corrosion starting on the water pump.

Some more photos as it slowly gives up its secrets:
The first shows the sludge in the sump - proving it is a good is a good idea to completely restore the engine.
The second and third show the inlet and exhaust ports. I believe (but stand to be corrected) that the Fanalone ports were finished to a standard above that of the later 1600 ports. Does anyone have any comment or experience of this ? My memory of when we did my brothers S2 1600 engine is too dim to draw any conclusions.

Finally one of the stripped head. Any advice for the valve guides - later ones had seals on them, is it worth changing these ? (I haven't checked mine yet so I have no idea if they are worn or not)

It is a good idea to replace all valve guide seals. My advice is not to use the black seals (old type) which have a very limited lifetime and then the engine starts burning oil. Use red seals which last much longer. Any good machine shop should stock them.
In view of the sludge you found in the oil sump, I would advise to remove the plugs from the camshfts, clean them internally very carefully and fit new plugs.


Good luck
Andrea

Andrea,
Thanks for the reply. Removing all the plugs on the cams and crank (and any others I find !) is in the plan, although I was surprised at the amount of sludge in there. I will have a think about the valve guides. I don't really want to move too far away from the original engine, but obviously I also don't want to be burning oil in 10,000 miles. A small dilema but I have plenty of time to consider it. I'll do a bit of reading up, so thanks for the advice.
Neil

Please note that an often-forgotten plug is at the end of the shaft driving the oil pump. Good idea to remove it and clean the internals as in your case there was a lot of sludge.
Best of luck
Andrea

Re valve guides just fit to inlet as exhaust doesnt suck when valve open and needs a better lubrication regime due to the heat especially on the inboard ones.

Tim

Some for photos of the engine in bits. The big surprise is that the thrust bearings are shot - I imagine because with little use they have been running at start up with no oil, but the crankshaft shows no sign of damage. Center main bearing shows more wear than the two outers, but I understand this is typical of a Fulvia engine.

With the crankshaft plugs out we found the cavities full of muck - so it's looking a good decision to pull it all to bits.

Also the flywheel ring is very poor so I will probably get it turned off and a new one shrunk on.

Sorry, couldn't resist the comparison!

Robin.

 ;D

Looks fantastic. I imagine moving that around and about was more than a one person job ! Is it all ok now (I have been following your tread with interest) ?

Neil

The flywheel has to come out with the crankshaft and I can just about lift it on my own. Likewise the head is just manageable although I sometimes use a hoist. A friend gave me a massive engine hoist which is invaluable.

Sadly she is still off the road where she has been for most of the year. The rattle in the engine has proved very elusive and having failed to get her to the French Rally I have been taking a much needed break much to Margaret's delight!

The Fanalone too is suffering similarly having received no attention since seizing the gearbox/final drive on the way to Classic Le Mans.

Robin.

I imagine after a run of luck like that you feel you deserve a break ! I know from experience this can dent anyones enthusiasm for a while.I hope the winter provides the time to find a solution so that you are able to be back on the road next year.

all the best
Neil

The engine is now fully stripped. The attached photo shows the muck collected over time in the crankshaft oil chambers (with crank plug removed), so always worth removing and cleaning if you go this far into your engine.

My own "compare and contrast" picture of an Aprilia bottom end.  By the time the Fulvia came along it looks like about half the bearing area and half the material in the crankcase.

David

I think these (yours and Robins) are very good compare and contrast. Here is a photo of mine taken from the same angle and one difference you can see (apart from those already pointed out) is the asymmetric web design (as opposed to the symmetric webs on the earlier engines). This tells the evolution of the understanding of balancing of V engines by Lancia. Both the earlier engines were balanced "in balance" (all the webs are essentially the same), but the Fulvia (and I guess all post Aurelia) has essentially asymmetric webs (giving a designed in "out of balance") then fine tuned by the holes in the first and last webs.

The flywheel has it's own balance holes which probably shows that Lancia did not balance the flywheel, clutch and crank as an assembly, but balanced the crank as an item and the clutch and flywheel as an item. This helps when fitting a lighter flywheel and clutch as you only have to worry about balancing them as items not as a complete assembly with the crank.

It's been a while since I posted anything. I'm still keeping at it, it's just that it's that type of work that although effort is being put in you don't seem to have much to show for it !

The engine is all now completely cleaned. All items have been measured and I am happy to say that apart from one rocker shaft everything else is well within the limits at which one would consider rebore/replacement etc. I have stripped, cleaned and re-assembled the starter motor, and the alternator. The alternator needed a new winding, but Bosch still supply those so that should be ready in about a week + new bearings.

I have been polishing the con-rods with satisfying results. Next is to balance them and get them shot peened.

What's been the polishing process for the rods?

David

I wasn't trying to lighten them, so no grinding was involved. Fanalone rods are supposed to be polished but they must have been given to the apprentice as it was a token effort !

First off into the ultrasonic bath then a good rinse.

I took the casting marks out with a drill & flapper wheel 120 grade, then a 150 grade. Then I moved up through 300 to 600 grade wet and dry, the last rub with a drop of 3in1 oil. I didn't attempt to produce a polished finish on the whole rod, just on the radii at the big and little end and the rod itself (the rest was given a going over with the flapper wheels). I made sure the side radii were polished and had a nice raduis ( the points of the "H") and ensured the transition points at the big and little end were smooth. Keep the poilishing direction along the length of the rod (not across). Dont polish the faces that require oil retention (big end side faces).
I finished them of on a medium and then soft polishing wheel.

There is some good advice here:

http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1041&p=6668&hilit=polishing+rods#p6668


Neil

A bit more progress !

All relatively straight forward stuff. The oil pump was on the edge of allowable tolerance, but as they all seem to be like that I have not replaced it.

Fan unit and water pump.

Not sure what to do with the water pump yet. With seals unavailable I am still pondering various options. I have got hold of a later pump off e-bay. Although the pumps are interchangable the components are not (see photo). The later pumps have a greater capacity (casing is different) and a cast iron curved blade impellor, which I imagine is more efficient. Any thoughts or experiences on this ?

this is going to be a hell of a car when its done, 10/10 really nice thorough job nice to see for a change

I love the series 1 cooling fan and pillar, I had thought of removing mine on my 2c and replacing it with an electric one, but I just can't bring myself to do away with such a wonderful piece of engineering and work of art, even if it is noisy and saps the power.


Brian
8227 8)

I agree Brian - beautifully made.

First steps on the engine rebuild were made over the weekend.

With bits on order from Omicron (after a bit of credit card bingo from me  :P),  I started by cleaning the oil ways with rifle brushes and then compressed air and checking for ovality in the mains. Hopefully next weekend I can set up the main bearings and get the crank in.

Looks good Neil,
Have you a target date for completion?
I note the new technology on the left, & the old on the right ;D

Brian
8227 8)

Thanks Brian....it's a sign of the times that I think the hammer was more expensive than the DTI ! Being a youngster I have always been more calculator than slide rule and digital than vernier  ;D

I think next year is looking realistic for on the road, but I've tried to concentrate on "doing the right thing" rather than "doing it by Friday" so we shall see.

i'll say it again ( fantastic job! keep those pictures coming  :) )

Got the valve stem seals fitted this weekend. A bit more of a job than I first thought. Having got a set from Omicron I found that they did not fit. Measuring the guides up I found they were 10.2 mm (book says 13mm) diameter, but the seals only 9.4mm. No way would they fit. I investigated other seals but after talking to Elring (http://www.elring.de/en/03en/035c_vsdicht_data.php?country=en) (who make OEM seals) it seemed it was a non-standard, or obsolete guide size. Standard sizes now are 9.8 or 10.4mm.

As luck would have it my dad has just finished converting the Aurelia to stem seals, so with a bit of fettling, I used this tool to turn them to the correct size for these seals, 9.8mm:

Valve stem seal (http://e-kat.elring.de/en/00008FA73E8D55747778D0DF7FF4413B2CEA:-1.srv;jsessionid=8FA73E8D55747778D0DF7FF4413B2CEA?view=VIndexFramesetJsp)

Crank is finished and ready to fit, valves and cams will go in this week. Will be visiting the local machining shop to discuss metal spraying and re-grinding the rocker shafts which have 20 thou wear soon as well - perenial problem on Fulvias.

What am I looking at in the first picture?  Is that the tool to turn them down?


David

I should have taken some more pictures  ;D

As you are looking at it, it is set up to reduce the height off the guide. The cutter is on the left, centre is the locating guide (locates in the valve guide), on the right is a depth stop. To reduce the diameter, the depth stop is removed and a different cutter is put in (replacing the one shown). To put the chamfer on, yet another cutter is used with the depth stop.

As it was made to fit the Aurelia (which has larger diameter valve stems), when I reduced the diameter of the locating guide (center of tool) to 7mm there was a slight gap between the cutting tool and the locating guide which meant that when I was reducing the height I was left with a slight shoulder (you can see this, 2nd guide from the left on the first picture) that I took off with a band sander.

Worked fine.

I have now put the crank in. It turns very nicely, so slowly it's beinging to look like an engine again  ;D

Two other activites on the go. The head is having the seats and valves machined. One valve would not lap in as the cut was slightly off center (the valve wasn't bent) and I am deciding what to do with the rocker shafts. Both were worn, the inlet had 20 thou wear in places.

Does anyone have any experience with metal spreying ? I have had conflicting advice on this - one engine specialist said unlikly it can be done as the oilways would become blocked up during the process, the other said it could probably be done. I can get new ones but they are ~£200 for a pair.

What have others done in this situation ?

A bit more progress. Crank and block are reunited.

Still thinking about what to do about the rocker shafts. I think you are right Chugga. I'm not going to go down the spraying route. Current thinking is to see what the possibility is to make them. Material selection is looking like either EN24 or C35 steel, make slightly over size and hone the rockers. Anyone have any comments on that approach, I'm happy to hear them ?

En24 sounds ok but it will need heat treating, there are better steels though depending on what you want to pay and who is machining them, what is he measurement of the rocker bores?

What's the finish on the block casting?

David

The shafts are just located in aluminum blocks on the head. The don't turn, they are for support and control only.

The diameter of the shaft is 15.973mm. Thought is to make them 16 dead and hone the rockers to fit (allowing for clearance). The rockers should be 16 dead but mine are slightly worn.The clearance should be about 0.04mm.

Regarding the material I started out thinking about heat treating but I'm not sure the originals are heat treated. I can scratch it with a file (just) which makes me think it is a hard alloy like EN24 but not heat treated. The other reason is that you should really run hard against soft (I know with cam followers and the like this doesn't hold) and I would rather the soft be the shaft than the rocker (easier to get shafts than rockers). I have exchanged mails with a gentleman in Germany who made his rocker shafts out of C45 (a con rod material slightly weaker than C35). He says the are fine. That has a UTS, yield strength and HB about 70% of EN24. He didn't heat treat them.

If I have to heat treat then I imagine I might as well buy some new as the cost would probably be more or less the same.

Whats your thoughts on that approach ?

Sorry David, misunderstood the question  :P

It's etch primer - you can get it from pretty much any motor factors / Halfords etc. I didn't use any of the advertised block paints as they are all in daft or non-original colours. But this was almost an exact match for the paint on the block, and I had some handy - I gave it a few coats.

Neil

Neil,
It certainly looks better than my semi rust colour, does anyone know if all Fulvia had this colour finish, mine looks like it was black the first time the engine came out and was stripped was at about 28K, so I think it unlikely that it had been out before.


Brian
8227 8)

Brian,

This is a photo from a 1963 Lancia booklet (Straordinario Fulvia) covering the production facilities of the then new Fulvia (berlina). It is clearly black, so would more or less confirm your conclusion.

Later Lancia technical publications I have (S2 +) all seem to show grey (or possibly unpainted). Photos in various books covering the Fanalones (particularly Altorio) show grey (or again possibly unpainted). Like you, I doubt my engine has ever been out, so am pretty convident that grey was my colour, as black would seem to be your colour.

There is also a thread here (http://amicifulvia.forumattivo.com/motore-f4/colore-monoblocco-818302-t580.htm) on the subject if your Italian is any good :) , but it does suggest a RAL code (7035) for the grey.

When the change occured and if it is different coupes to berlinas I not seen anything conclusive.

Neil

Thanks Neil,
Just about followed that using Altavista!

Brian
8227 8)

Seeing all those cracking cars at the AGM (particularly Stans' Fanalone) has got me back into the garage with renewed optimism.

Whilst waiting for the rockers shaft solution I have set about the carbs. Nothing complicated about these (at least not in overhauling anyway) as long as they don't leak. Here is a before, during and after. The bizarre thing I found was that the fuel return passage on the fuel union was not drilled through ! Hmmm, they must have been keen to get away on that day  ::)

...and that claw hammer is for...?

David

That "claw hammer", as you so undelicately refer to it, is my beautifully balanced repercusive adjustment instrument. Yesterday it was carefully withdrawn from its packaging to adjust the tab washers on the butterfly shaft  ;D

Looks just like my beautifully balanced repercussive adjustment instrument, just one of a set of similar instruments;D

Brian
8227 8)

The head is almost complete now. After investigating getting some new rocker shafts made (and some good help from a German member of viva-lancia) Neal Shepherd came up trumps. He had had a set made up some time ago which he did not use and was happy to sell them on. As a bonus he had had them made dimensionally as I was considering (about 4 thou oversize to allow the rockers to be honed to take out any wear), and they are induction hardened.

Before assembling I diamond lapped all the bearing surfaces on the cams and rockers to take out the marks (probably water and acid - photo 4) and return to a nice ground finish (photo 5). This takes a bit of time but the result is cams that turn very freely. Then I made up a honing tool for the lathe and honed the rockers to fit. Everything has gone together, fits beautifully with no slop at all.

A note on the cam end bearings. I bought a new set from Cavallito and they needed a few hours fettling before they were good enough to fit. The location hole for the dowel was too small and not de-burred properly and when placed on the cam and turned with fingers it was possible to detect high points as it was rotated (did not spin freely). Some work with very fine (1500) paper relieved the high points, and a small drill end with fine wet and dry wrapped round relieved the hole to a nice fit. So don't assume these things are ready to fit when received.

Also the fuel pump has gone back on having sat on the shelf for a few months.

It looks fabulous - and I expect its been most satisfying to improve all the fits to a silky perfection.

How exactly did you hone the rockers and cams?  Any pics of the lathe tool for the rocker bearings?

David

David,

Lapping the cams (or any hardened surface you can get at) was done with these:

http://www.ezelap.com/honestone.htm

Starting at medium to get the mark out (don't use it like a file - just mild pressure away from you following the shape), then fine followed by super-fine. Finish with 1500 grade paper. It takes a while so get a chair and a beer ! Keep the stones clean by dipping in thinners occassionally and don't worry about altering the shape of the cams or putting flats on the journals, with the hardened surface you're only taking 10ths of thou off.

Honing the inside of the rockers was done using the tool in the photos. A piece of hard steel bar turned to just under size (about 15.95mm on the calipers), cut a slot top and bottom and thread with a #3 tap to give it a tapered thread. Screw a bolt (loosely) in then put some grinding paste mixed with oil on the bar (photo 1), turn at low speed with the rocker on moving the rocker around (no real pressure), turn the rocker around and repeat to make sure there is no taper in the rocker. Then take rocker off, tighten bolt a few turns to spread the bar and repeat until you have the correct dimension on the rocker.

This cleans the insides of the rockers up nicely leaving a nice finish without turning the whole thing into a machine shop visit.

Neil

I really like that honing tool.   The EXTERIOR of that rocker looks rather good as well.

David

Thanks David, I'm very pleased with how they all turned out. It's a bit tedious doing it all but worth it I think :)

I'm reminded of someone who scratch built a model aircraft engine - a whopping great multi cylinder thing.   He was asked by someone in the crowd why he built something so complex. He replied that he liked an engine to take him some time to build as all he ever did when they were finished was start another one.

Would I be right in saying "you won't know what to do with yourself" when its finished?

David

lol  ;D . I hope to be driving it, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there  ;)

Anyway, voila: a finished cylinder head. Two pictures; a before and after taken about a year apart.

Very nice! Definitely a work of art - both the original and the refurbishment.

Well, not feeling too pleased this morning  >:(

I spent ages checking all bolt lengths, cleaning the threads, trial fitting etc. Torqued the bolts down to 50% yesterday and went back to finish the job today and three of the helicoils are jiggered. But the plot thickens as I have taken the first out and low and behold there is the remains of a previous helicoil underneath it  ???

Now as I have said in other posts there have been several strange things about this head: the cam bearings had been fitted incorrectly, one of the rocker shafts was badly worn and bent and it had the incorrect valve caps on. Someone has been here before me with a "bodge it and scarper" job.

Anyhow - now I can hone my helicoil skills  :)

Hmmm... sorry to hear..

I have been there myself twice too often and that was paying someone else to build the engine. First time was wrong cam caps, poor camshaft, stuck helicoils holding cam caps  that had been helicoiled once too often, mashed head bolt heads etc etc ....  However, Peter Gerrish (timecerts?) and SEP Engineering saved the day.

She now sings beautifully - just rolling road tested and successfully raced at Cadwell with no major issues.

Well, the job starts. Today I have taken the hollow cap dowels out and the remaining helicoils. The dowels are a tight fit so I took them out by hydraulics. I filled each hole with thick oil (steering box oil), gently heated the head locally with a blow torch and put in a aluminium punch. With a couple of sharp taps the dowel pops out. Then I could get the helicoils out.

The plan is to take the holes out and thread to take a bull end stud, then put the dowels back. We'll see how it goes.

Hi Neil,
Neat job, good luck with the rest ;D

I take it the heat was to expand the head to make it easier to get the dowels out?

Brian
8227 8)

Very clever! I am full of admiration.

Colin

You fox!!

David

Easy tiger,easy. People will start talking !

Brian, yes they are too tight to feel comfortable giving them a good whack so a bit of heat seemed like a wise thing to do.
The punch has to be almost an interference fit to work (otherwise all you've made is an oil filled water pistol !).
My dad turned a couple up as they lasted about 6 dowels before getting too loose.

Hi Neil,
I have memories from my younger days of trying to hydraulic out a flywheel spigot bush with a not tight enough drift, once experienced, remembered for evermore :-[

Brian
8227 8)

We move on a few steps. After considering the options and much reading of BSI and EN standards for bolt and stud design, referring to my university books and my dads brain ( ;D). the route we have chosen is studs with reduced shank diameters.

Any thoughts welcome particularly if anyone thinks we have missed something out :P

Why studs ?

Well, the use of inserts in aluminium is not because aluminium is not strong enough (in terms of UTS) but because it has poor fatigue properties. The use of bolts means that the threads in the aluminium would very quickly become damaged after only a few removal and refits of the bolts. By using studs you no longer need inserts as you will no longer have to disturb that part of the joint.

Why reduced shank diameter?

The point of highest stress in a bolt is at the inner root diameter of the first thread on the shank. This dictates the load you can put into a bolt before it breaks - so there is no point in having a shank diameter larger than the thread root diameter. Because of the way standard bolts are made the shank diameter is always the same as the outer thread diameter not the root diameter. This also brings another problem (particularly for our aluminium bits). Because the shank diameter is now greater than required its extension vs load profile means that as the engine heats up (and bolted joint expands) the increase in load across the joint is higher than need be. This manifests itself as damage to the bolted face on the aluminium (where the face has effectively been crushed). On cooling this can lead to a reduction in tension in the bolt and it comes loose. So reducing the shank diameter to that of the inner root diameter increases the relative extension of the bolt vs a given temperature rise, resulting in a lower stress at the aluminium face; so reducing the crushing of the head. It is very important that good spreader washers are used on aluminium faces - standard ones will not do.

In actual fact you can reduce the shank diameter to less than the root diameter as the stress in the first thread is a notch stress and has a load factor of greater than 1. Some books suggest you can go as low as 70% of the thread root diameter.

The work below is that of my dad.

The starting point is an M12x1.75 cap bolt (grade 12).

This is turned down to the treading diameter for an M8x1.25 (the original bolt size) at one end.

The shank is then turned down to the inner root diameter of the M8 thread.

M12 is used for the stud end because it is the smallest you can go for when drilling out the original M10 thread in the aluminium, and still have enough metal for the tapping diameter required.

The second photo shows roughly what they will look like installed (this one is not screwed in nor does it have the hollow dowels)

The third photo shows crush damage on the head.

Next job is to prepare the head for them. To be continued...........

There is some excellent technical advise on the ARP site (well worth reading):
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/Tech.html

Neil

You may remeber I had a similar problem on my HF head (ex Paul LeClerq). quite a number of threads had gone soft. Indeed I had one stud with an M12 end that had also gone soft! and one insert inside another.

I went down the timesert route (from Wurth v expensive) and used Aurelia cap studs (from Omicron).

One thread had to be welded up and re drilled and tadded/inserted as the previous repair had breached a water way. Done several 1000 miles since and still touching wood!

The guy who did my head expressed concern on the tourque values (2.5kgm) for the caps as he felt this was 25% over the helicoil in aluminium specification. I can only assume the while the studs have to hold the cams in place with the valve spring effort on the cam caps, the caps also perfom the function of holding the rocker cover on which has the effect of pulling the cam caps off the head!!!

I agree studs are the best esp if like me you want to play around with different cams from time to time.

Tim

Re Time serts these are prone to fail as well on the smaller sizes (due to wall thickness) but you can get a stronger one called "Bigsert"!

Tim

I had this problem after the engine builder in 2006 fitted wrong caps and worn out camshafts.

ARP were helpful but could not make studs from standard stock:

"We have looked at the head sheet you sent us. The closest we have in a stock part is 5.175” and the ideal length should be 4.46”, so they’re .715” too long. I think they’re wont be enough thread left for the nut, so It would not work. I've spoken with Vere-Lanca and the part they had purchased from a dealer that said they would fit are in fact to long. So this could be the same stud that has been tried and will not work.
 
I am sorry we are unable to help further. We can make them as a special. However for one set the cost is going to be very high. Like I said we have made the rod bolts for Omicrom."

In the end Peter Gerrish fitted better cam caps, had the head machined and special inserts installed.  After head gasket blew in winter 2009, I went with new head bolts M8 12.9 grade and competition copper head gasket.

No problems there after.

Studs make life difficult when you want to take head off - whole engine must come out first

best


 
 

I should have said that the studs are only for the cam caps, not to replace the head bolts. I don't have a problem with the.....thankfully  :)

Lukas/Neil

I too was only refering to the cam caps. On a 1600 I cannot remember but I think there is still clearance to remove the cam caps with the head in place.

On head bolts I would always recommend the use of 12.9 cap bolts and the thick washer as supplied by Omicron and others. and progressively tourque down to c 25ftlb as opposed to 14ftlb (?) for the fiat bolts.

For anyone else wondering "what's a time-sert" here's the FAQ with a nice little demo movie up the top.

http://www.timesert.com/html/faq.html

David

Thanks David,
Well worth watching.

Brian
8227 8)

Very good ! What was the spray he was using - I could do with a bit of that!

With my dad back from his holidays we start again  :D

Now into drilling and preparing the head.

First the faces of the head bolt holes were refaced level as they were all crushed because the spreader washers were not big enough. This was done with a cutter mounted on a dowel guide in a vertical drill (first photo). The refaced hole surfaces  can be seen in the second photo.

Then the cam cap holes were drilled out. A guide was made out of aluminium with a hollow dowel in to locate in the dowel hole of the holes, to keep everything square (3rd photo). Then the holes were drilled down to the stop (4th photo).

Next step is to tap the threads.

Took me a couple of times to re-read and fathom photo 3.  Have you got a picture of the upper gubbins (cam bearing) that locates in the "dowl hole of the holes".

David

Yes - not the most lucid post I have ever posted  :-[

I haven't got any photos and all the parts are at my dads but reply 124 shows the caps from the top view, reply 128 shows the hollow dowels. The cam caps have a female drilled that takes the male (visible) part of the dowel. I have done a quick drawing in lieu.

What we did was to pop the dowels out (reply 128) of the head and put one of the dowels in the drill guide, so that it would locate exactly (from whence it had come) in the head. Then we could drill out the hole with confidence. With the hole now the correct size, the dowels can be put back in the head (the diameter we need for the studs is less that the diameter of the dowel rebates) and the cam caps assembled as before, nice and true (we hope  :-\ )

I'd not noticed that the posts were numbered - handy!!

After a reread and looking at the other photos it makes sense again...  Odd how two of the caps have three not two bolts. 

David

Well, after a day a day at the NEC, an afternoon in the workshop has got me back on track after 3 months. All the studs are now in (photo 1 & 2) new washers are fitted (photo 3) and still time to make a nifty little attachment to the drop hammer to help remove the cam caps without having to resort to levering the of with a hammer and scewdriver (photo 4)

Head is now finished - just waiting a final torque, so after getting some new rings from Omicron I've assembled the pistons and installed them.

Plenty of oil and use fingers not piston ring compressors and they are pretty easy to install.

Has anyone ever found a source for the water pump seals or an equivalent (even if it required some machining of the housing?). My pump is in super condition and I'm loath to just replace it with a new one. And the kids would have to go without Christmas presents if I did anyway  ;D

hi neal, i've sent you a pm with an offer , if there was enough interest in getting replacement seals made i'd have a couple, food for thought, get a batch of say 40>50 made?? would it be worth it??

Chugga,
These are the two types I have. The later has a cast impeller and a deeper pump chamber with 2282848 stamped on the back. The earlier has a brass impeller with a shallower chamber with 2189801 stamped on the back. The drive shafts are different as well.

In the photos the early pump is on the left and the later on the right.

Cheers
Neil

Water pump kits turn up on ebay from time to time, I bought a kit about 5 years ago, but as my water pump was replaced/overhauled during restoration I've never had it apart, so it might not even be the right kit for my 2c, I'll dig it out and take some photos as it came complete with shaft and seals, but not the impeller.

Brian
8227 8)

The last piece of inspection before putting it the head on (water pump will have to wait a bit) has been the cam sprockets. Hmmm........ not so good. Throughout doing the head (if you've been following  ;D) evidence has been thrown up of something happening in the past and a bodge job being done to get it all back together.

More evidence now on the verniers.

The inlet sprocket has a broken tooth and evidence of damage on other teeth, and the exhaust sprocket has bad wear and damage on one tooth and three others with cracks/damage at the tooth root. Both wheels have scratch marks across the face of the sprockets as well. Broken chain, over-revved and chain came off, broken tooth causing chain to come off ? Not sure I'll ever know for certain, but I'm trying pretty hard to make sure it doesn't happen again the first time I turn the key  :D

If anyone has a set of good condition verniers they would be willing to sell please let me know.

Thanks
Neil

Operator error, pressed "quote" not "modify" - sorry  :-[

I does look like the chain came off. What's the tensioner like?

I think you're probably right. The tensioner is good, a bit of wear on the pin that takes the curved pad yoke, and a bit of wear in the yoke itself - but the face of the pad is excellent (almost like new)..................in fact thinking about it perhaps too excellent ???

pretty sure i've got some pulley's , will have a look tomorrow for you

Thanks James.

Brian,

Although the shafts, cases and impellers are different I'm pretty sure the seal is the same and it is nearly always the seal that goes. They're like hens teeth, so worth holding onto.

Thanks Neil,
I'll try to remember to take photos when I go to change over the battery of "Fays" Airchamber tomorrow.

Brian
8227 8)

neil you probably wont believe this but my dad has a brand new pair of pulley's still in their origional lancia boxes, probably best if you speak to him about them, james

Here's the photo of the kit I bought, is there any percentage in smoothing of the rough casting of the impeller, or does the rough casting give it a greater surface area and "grip" ???

This is one of 3 boxes I carry with an assortment of spares, besides a few other items ;D I tend to work on the hopeful assumption that if I carry a spare it won't break!

Brian
8227 8)

Smooth is better than rough - its like a propellor or an aircraft wing or an engine inlet tract so the aim (for what small benefit is to be had...) is to reduce drag along the surface.

David

Thank you David, I'll get the rotary stones out!

Brian
8227 8)

Interestingly that is a completely different seal to any I have seen, however it looks as though it will fit ??

Hi Neil,
Never had a water pump apart so I don't know if it will fit or not as the case maybe , however looking at my parts list Tav 23, the seal looks similar bearing in mind it's an illustration rather than a photo, the bit that does concern me though is that the shaft shown has a thread opposite end to the spline, which after passing through the bearing, the slinger, the spacer(no part number given ?) the seal, and the impeller, there's a tab washer, a plain washer and a nut. so perhaps the kit is for a later version of the water pump with a interference fit of the shaft to the impeller?
Anyone got a photo please.

Brian
8227 8)

Measuring equipment and ultrasonic cleaners at sensible prices.  I'm posting it here as we admired Neil's bore gauge pictured a few months back.   However I expect I personally won't trouble Santa and will stick to an old piston plus feelers...

http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/index.php?target=categories&category_id=22

David

There's some nice stuff on there at reasonable prices. I looked at buying one of those digital dial gauges but they were over £100 a couple of years ago.

Well, the phrase "as good as new" is often overused and misapplied but in this case I can safely say I can use it correctly:

One set of brand new, out of the box, vernier cam sprockets. Still with the packing wax on! A clean up in the tank, quick tickle with the honing stones to take out a couple of very slight water marks and (literally) as good as new  ;D

Thanks go to Morris Parry (24 hrs after asking  on the forum - hows that for an advertisement for what we have?), and James. 

Job for Christmas is now to get the head on and set the timing.

Father Christmas came a bit early then Neil ;D

Another greart advert for the Forum and Lancisti.

Brian
8227 8)

I think you're lucky they didn't deliver it personnally ! ;)

what you trying to say  ??? i think it would have been a cracking idea to deliver personally, could have dropped off the latest appia to drop in neils tank and see whats left  :D , neil glad your pleased with them, its amazing what turns up in our barns lol !!! i just need someone to turn up with some s1 or s2 appia doors before i have to make a pair  :o

Neil,

If ever an engine, and engine builder, deserved those N.O.S sprokets...

At least we all now KNOW you'll be having a happy Christmas  ;D

David

The timing gears are on and first pass has got the cam timing to within about 1/2 tooth (say about 1.6 deg). I should be able to get it better with some timing discs.

Now I am getting the gearbox sorted. First job was to get the remote lever off and apart, the bell housing and the clutch release bearing off. All have various seals and bearings that want replacing due to the passage of time. There is one fixing for the remote which is an Allen key bolt (photo 2)- I showed it a key and it promptly rounded off - so it had to be drilled out.

To get the 'box apart you have to withdraw the main shaft which runs the full length and essentially ties the whole thing together. This is done by taking the rear end plate off, exposing a circlip, thrust plate and spring clip. With these removed the shaft can be pulled out from the front. Then the bell housing can be removed. I also removed the rear 5th gear cartridge (which is the "piggyback" part of a piggyback gearbox - fitted to the first 1000ish Fanalones). The piggy back gearbox is based on the 4-speed of the standard cars but differs in detail, like having no syncro on first maybe because there was not enough space, and also a plethora of ratios and an LSD to choose from (photos 3,4,5).

Nice touches are the serial number of the CWP set stamped on the pinion, which also has the set backlash engraved on it.

The bell housing has a roller bearing in (# HK2016 type) and two oil seals. The bearing and one of the oil seals iare in a small housing. All are available from a decent bearing supplier so have been ordered and should be here tomorrow. Leaks through here will contaminate the clutch face (photo 6).

The remote assembly also has four seals in - again all available in standard sizes.

The clutch release bearing was rough so I unpicked the case and bought a new bearing (NKA # 6008 type ) and reassembled it. Cost £8, better than £50 odd from a specialist and you know you have a decent bearing in it (before and after photos 7 & 8 ).

Hi Neale

About to do a rrebuild on my 1600 Zagato box - can you advise the bearing/seal suppliers?

Did yours have an LSD?

Thanks

No, mine doesn't have an LSD.

The bearings and seals are all standard sizes (well, the ones I have removed are anyway). If you measure them (ID, OD, W) you will be able to look them up on the 'net. I got all mine from Derby Bearings (most available over the counter, a couple on order), but there will be somewhere near you that you can take them into and discuss.

Get good quality ones (SKF, FAG, INA, NKE) and for the seals worth asking for Viton as it is a higher spec. Don't get them from a Lancia specialist, you'll get charged throu' the nose for the same stuff.

I was told that one of the main shaft bearings is NLA by someone who had done a piggy back box, but mine are fine so I haven't identified which one it is. An S2 box I don't think has any NLA bearings.

If you are doing the box yourself, have you got the special tools? This site gives a good idea of what to expect.

http://www.eddinsmoto.com/id93.htm

Hi Neil,

Couldn't be better timing! Jonathan is coming over today to remove the gearbox from our Fanalone to see if we can find the cause of the seizure on our way to Classic Le Mans last year. The box had been getting progressively noisier and my guess is that it needs a total rebuild.

Please keep the pictures and advice coming.

Robin.

Hi Robin,

I guess whatever it is that is the problem it will require a strip down.

Stage one would be to split the box and have a look.

Just to add to what I put above:
first remove the drive shaft as described above

to remove the 5th gear cartridge you will also have to remove the lock plate on the bottom gear shaft (see photo). To do this remove lock wire and hold the gear above. I found a front hub tool just fits the castellations. The two bolts on the lock plate are not very tight so once you have held the gear train via the gear they should come undone quite easily. When splitting don't lose the key on the bottom gear, or the syncro ring on 5th gear as both can drop out.

to remove the bell housing is easy - just the nuts you can see.

That is about as far as you can go without special tools or new bits. You can now see in the front and some of the back of the box but to actually split the box you need to remove the 5th gear cartridge backing plate and one of the drive flanges (the one furthest from the CW).

I haven't got that far yet (I may decide not to go any further) but to remove the backing plate first you have to remove the gear selector fork. Push it backwards so you can see the spring pin in the fork and with a punch knock it out. Then I think the fork can be withdrawn and then the backing plate.

To remove the drive flange you need a castellated socket that fits. I don't have one (although it should be pretty simple to make), but with this off it looks as though you can remove the shaft and then split the box.

HTH
Neil

Neil,

Jonathan has been reading this thread and is planing to start dismantling the box this week. So, many thanks for posting.

Not sure yet how far he will go before calling in some expert assistance - not me incidentally!

Robin.

Keeping things moving along.

All the bearings and oil seals are now replaced in the bellhousing (all back together), all the seals replaced in the remote change housing and new bronze bush made up for the remote lever (photo's one and two).

I found a bit of play in the splines of the nearside flange so I have removed that to have a better look. The play is very small and I will assemble it with Locktite 638 (Locktite (http://www.loctite.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_uke/hs.xsl/80_UKE_HTML.htm?) have a very good website and should be essential reading for anyone looking for assembly solutions).

[Robin; this was quite straight forward as the nut was loose on mine. Once the nut is off you can remove the flange then undo the outer retaining nuts and the bearing cartridge lifts out. It looks as though you can then split the box. I have a copy of the gearbox overhaul document for piggy back boxes, it's in italian but a picture is worth a thousand words etc. If you want a copy PM me]

Next job is to replace the oil seals and bearings (oil seals are from here (http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p70439/35x62x10+AB+++Viton+Rubber+Metric+Rotary+Shaft+Oil+Seal+with+Garter+Spring/product_info.html) ).

Neale,

As ever, still mightily impressed by what you achieve and I sincerely hope I never have to split a Fulvia gearbox!

You have mentioned all the bearings and seals in the box itself, but are you expecting to do any refurbishment of the remote shift? I think it is quite common to have lateral wear in the plain bushes through which the actuating rod slides and turns. Do you have any recommended treatment for this?

Colin

The plain bushes on mine were fine (as was the remote shaft), I just replaced the O rings and oil seals. Looking at them they don't look that hard to push out, then make up a new set in bronze. Cue someone who has done it telling me it's worse than removing the heater  ;D

Neale,

Many thanks, a copy of the document you have would be most welcome.

Jonathan is well on the way to stripping the box and has sent me some pics. I'll start a new thread detailing his efforts thus far and post the pics.

Robin.

Great - love to see some photos, hope there are no nasty surprises.

Colin re remote selctor bushes

I had exactly that problem on my 1600 sport box with worn remote shift bearings. Well it had done best part of 170,000 miles....

I looked long and hard at the problem then decided the only real way was to drop the box out. It wasnt too bad (its the second time I have done it to this car - to solve the front oil seal(s) problem of oil leak onto clutch, and forth time in total). I think dropping the box is easier if you can get the car high on large axle stands and have a transmission cradle on a jack that can pitch fore/aft.

I would have done both jobs when I took the box out the first time but had only had the car for a few weeks and didnt realise how bad they were. Anyway a few months later I knew I had to do then and not having neil's lathe I saw some oems on ebay and reckoned that they would do for the next 100k's! They are made out of something like nylon... and the old ones push into the remote housing ok but then tease about getting them out of the housing afterwards!!!

Tim

Remote is finished now apart from getting hold of a spring for the bottom stay arm of the selector (item 6) which was missing. It is shown as optional in the TAV but I can imagine it rattles without it.

Tim, how are they lasting?

Now split the box as the two vertical selector bushes (first and second) photos are worn and will be replaced. The selector had plenty of slop in it but it's difficult to tell with the remote connected as that disguises it. When that's disconnected any wear in the selector bushes becomes apparent.

How good can a Fulvia five speed change be?   I guess you're going to find out...

David

Neil

No6 spring is particular to the early 5 speed box you rightly have on your F'lone. Later boxes/remotes (like on mine) were different. The lower pivot was threaded into the housing and greased so just rotate on its threads - never seemed to wear but you have to be careful on reassemble as you can set the distance to set the throw of the gear lever if that makes any sense???

Tim

Tim,
Yes - that makes sense.

The offending bushes are out. Simple; when the 'box is in pieces! Hopefully David, it'll be a good 'un when it's done. It'll be interesting to compare it with the four speed and the S2 five speed.

Another little detail which I like is the production quality stamp, year in the centre and the number of pips representing the months. August '69 for this box. Plenty of these all over the car in various places.

Neil, please check the narrow area around the stem of the ball as in the 3rd photo, on my S2 the ball snapped off!  I took the whole gearbox to Harry Manning, who had never seen that happen before (not quite the words he used!  ;)), we split a spare gearbox after careful checking and replaced the damaged part and put it back.  Harry reckoned the part was faulty from new and slowly a crack opened up, then turning of the newly completed M25 it decided it had enough and came off.   I will try to find the item as I am sure I still have it some where and post a picture of it.

A strange failure, but a good piece of advise - thanks. It's now on the list :)

A slow weekend this week whilst I'm waiting for the gearbox seals to arrive, but time to strip the speedo drive and dress the journals. As ever these things add to rather than deplete the "things to do list". It has about 1 mm of vertical slop in it so a new bottom thrust washer is required befor putting it back together.

Neil,

One thing that you might like to check whilst the box is in bits are the little tangs on the ends of the original helicoil inserts, where some threads around the remote may come straight through the casing, leaving the tang vulnerable to dropping into the works.  I assume that this is the case on your box, it certainly is on some 4 speed boxes, though I've not checked on the piggy back box and although not normally a problem, it is worth removing the tangs whilst the option is open. I've seen only actually seen loose tangs in strange places on the heads, trapped under the cam caps!  Curiously some early S2 boxes also used the course spline (5th gear end) quill shaft, should you ever need a spare, and I assume that those boxes also use the fanalone 5th gear gear carrier as well, I hope this the case as my fanalone box is in bits with several parts missing and various gears with teeth missing!

Good luck with the work, Neale Shepherd

Hello Neil

Our Fanelone gearbox is now fully stripped, and what a mess. It's obviously overheated causing first and second gear to weld the bearing faces to the shaft.
We finaly had the bearing faces cut off and then the gear pressed off.
The main pinion was so badly worn the teeth were razor sharp, and the small diff shaft that holds what I believe to be the planet gears, had worn so much it had 3 mm side play in the diff housing it sits in. Again this shaft had to be cut out with a grinder to remove it.
Al the bronze bushes, and syncros are badly worn and I am going through all the bearings.
A big job so far.
Thanks for the info on disc.

Hi Jon,
OUCH :o,
Any photos please.
Brian
8227 8)

Hi Jon,

Sorry to hear the extent of the damage; I'd got my fingers crossed for you that it wouldn't be so bad. I guess you now know the scale of the problem - any thoughts on the solution? Is it a case of getting/making the necessary bits or are you looking for a replacement box?

As I have gone through mine I've tried to work out which bits may be inter-changable with the other more common boxes. Unfortunately the conclusion I've come to is not a lot.

Neil

Almost got the 'box back together yesterday. My dad made up a couple of sockets to do the ring nuts up with and we got the air hammer on them. All back in and ok, but when I checked the two bolts that lock the bottom idler gear shaft one had a crack in it. Hit it with a hammer and the head came off. So have to make one of those now, as I said almost got it back together  ::)

Aren't Dads useful, everyone should have one ;D

Brian
8227 8)

New bolts received, the 'box is now finished. The black side bracket was badly cracked so was rebuilt - worth checking if you're ever looking in that area.

Neil,
Well done, what's next?

Brian
8227 8)

Well, after taking the kids sledging this morning, the next job was tidying the workshop  ;D

Probably start putting stuff in the subframe.

Neil, did you do any repairs to the subframe, or protected it any way except for paint/wax before you refit it?

Hi Neil,

I shotblasted mine and then galvanised and stove enamalled it (and all the other suspension bits). From memory it cost about £400 (finding someone to bead blast the aluminium bits took a while). Then I Dinatrol'd it. It didn't need any repairs, although I did get the mounts in the sill replaced. Photo attached of it assembled.

There is a bit of discussion and advice here:

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=568.0

Neil

Neil,  I had my subframe, uprights and components shot/sand blasted in 1996. after some welding and repair work at Evo Engineering by Paul (now Fulvias in France) then powder coated, I filled it with Waxoyl until it ran out of the joints, then moved the subframe into a new position and so on.  Your protection seems infinitely better than mine, as it has not really been back in the car for long and the car has now moved house and again the subframe removed, for finishing some of the body work, so not exposed to the weather at all, one day soon I hope!  ;)

I may fill up the subframe again before final refitting, one question did you leave the two holes open on the top of the rear legs?  This was widely discussed at Barry's I remember in the 1980s & 90s as design error, or a drawing error which was carried over to production, the holes may have been intended to be on the lower side not the top, so any water could drain out and not be trapped.

Attached an early digital photo from 1996 taken with an Apple Quicktake 100 camera  (8 shots or 16 lower res shots, no removal media, digital cameras have moved on somewhat since then!)

I left them open but drilled holes in the bottom. They may be there to locate a jig during manufacture.

Nice to see you were an early convert to the digital age !!

To fill in a bit of time this weekend I took the heater valve apart to clean it. I re-assembled it with some rubber grease, but when I tested it I found that when fully open the flow was woeful. After a bit of head scratching I fathomed that the lid of the valve was restricting the lift of the diaphram. I made up a gasket (about 2mm) and refitted the top. This now gives a nice full flow through the valve.

But I am puzzled as to this, because the flow was so bad as to be almost non-existent. Did the valves have a gasket in and mine was just missing or is this just how they are? Any comments from people who have looked at this before?

So long since I did mine last I can't remember but it certainly needs looking at so I'll let you know when I do.
Have you a bead blast cabinet or such like, if not, how do you get a finish like that on components?

Brian
8227 8)

I bought an industrial ultrasonic cleaner off e-bay about 2 years ago. Cleans things up a treat, especially anything painted by Lancia  :D

I've found you only have to threaten it with Nitromors for the paint to wilt in terror; the tank takes it all off cleanly. Then finish them off with wire brush, etch primer and a couple of top coats.

...and what fluid in the tank...?   Just water and a dash of washing up liquid or anything stronger?

David

I've been using a Quadralene cleaner (about a 5% mix) for non-ferrous metals on the advise of the chap I bought the tank off. He said if you use a ferrous cleaner on aluminium (which is a lot of the metal I am cleaning) it corrodes them after you have taken them out. There are more aggressive cleaners available but I have never used them and have been happy with the results I have got.

The only aggravation is tanking it all up and taking it to the tip when you change the fluid.

The timing of the cams is now finished - after checking thrice, thrice and thrice again I got them to within 1 deg on both (or less then 1/3 tooth).

I set them up on point of max lift (109 ATDC inlet & 71 ABDC exhaust) with an angle plate and DTI. Using this and taking an equidistant point either side of TDC it's pretty straight forward to measure it accurately. Continually taking the vernier pin out, moving the sprocket, re-measuring, then taking the chain off and moving the crank one tooth etc etc becomes a bit of a pain, but over a period of a couple of days I whittled it down from about 4 degs (just over one tooth) to less than a degree. Now I've got my head round it I'm sure I would be a bit faster now :)

Trial fit in the subframe next

Any idea how much variation between cylinders?

David

No - didn't measure the rest. I did measure all the lobes before fitting and they were all the same (within a couple of thou), but I will take you up on the measurements. Be a bit of a disaster if they are out !

On another tack, learning from previous experience of the engine mounts getting cooked by the close proximity of the exhaust a heat shield has been fashioned for the mount bracket (courtesy of my dad...again :) ). Should keep everything at bay for a while. Last photo shows the original mounts with heat damage.

Trial fit of the gearbox - not light a Fulvia gearbox!

Nice one Neil, our Fanalone gearbox looks like this just now!  :(

Robin.

Hi Neil,
Just as well you've got a long work bench ;D

Brian
8227 8)

Hi Robin,
thanks - so far it looks like a good job, proof will be if it doesn't self destruct when I engage 1st!

I recognise the bits on your bench. Having now done one of these it is easy to understand why Lancia went to the S2 box with its single split carcass, imagine that as a production task  ;D

You and Jonathan have gotten a fair way by the looks, hopefully on the downward slope - less one of   :( , possibly  :) and soon to be  ;D

Neil

Neil.

Yes we've located most of the bits now so reassembly should start soon.  :)

However,  :o and  :'( would be more accurate in respect of our wallets!

Robin

Well it's been a slow month but I've got on with doing the flywheel and clutch. The flywheel has been refaced and a clutch alignment tool made (courtesy of my dad), the assembly checked for balance and it's now all on the engine.

The interesting thing was discovering that the early Fanalones had a 30% lighter flywheel fitted. They were changed about halfway through the build for the S2 flywheel which is about 30% heavier. Also the clutch plate is an oddity as it has the same centre dimensions as the earlier S1's (10 spline quill shaft, 23mm quill shaft diameter, rather than 20 spline and 19mm diameter) but 200mm plate, so not interchangeable with the later or earlier clutches. They also changed the starter motor at the same time; going from a 104 tooth flywheel to a 126 tooth flywheel and with a longer throw on the solenoid. Mines got the early flywheel on.

Next job is to reunite the engine and gearbox for the first time in 5 years :)

Ta Daaahhh!

Finally the engine is back in the subframe. Blimey, this a not a job for one man....took me about 4 hours to get everthing lined up and the gearbox to engage with the clutch. Every muscle in my body aches from trying to manoeuvre and hold things in place and then put a bolt in! But...in she went  ;D

Dennis rolled up to help me at the final throw when photos were being taken  ::)

We keep plodding along! This weekend I have put the subframe back. All went pretty well, so forwards I go the the next stage, probably the interior as I don't have to spend much money on that - just elbow grease  ;D

I include a before (5 years ago) and an after (5 mins ago):

One of the perennial problems for a Fulvia owner is the availability (or lack of) of water pump seals. Seal failure usually leads to having to buy a new pump. To get away from this I looked at converting my pump to use a standard readily available mechanical water seal. I'm sure others have done this but I've never seen it written down before.

The basic seal housing has been bored out and sleeved to take a GSD170 (13mm) seal (http://www.globalsealsdirect.com/5.html) which only cost a couple of pounds. The impeller has the end turned down to take the rotary element of the seal. This is a press fit in a machined housing which is locktited on to the impeller shaft. The back of the impeller has been built up with a thin plate to reduce the gap to the backplate.

It took a while to find a suitable seal (dimension wise) that would fit, but most of the machining my dad did with the exception of the boring as the throw on his lathe wasn't great enough - but a quick trip to a machine shop sorted that. The pump is then reassembled as before.

I'm not using my S1 pump but an S2 pump which has a better impeller design.

First photo shows the housing before surgery (RHS)
Second photo show the assembled bits post surgery
Third shows seal in place
Fourth shows impeller in place
Fifth the rotary seal arrangement
Lastly the pump from the back with the seal in place.

Neil

what was the failure mode of your seal?

I have heard that it is the carbon face that breaks down.

I had to strip my original (23,000 mile) pump down suspecting the worse as water was dribbling out of the drain holes, and can find nothing untoward. Even the brass impeller was bright and shiny!

Tim

The carbon face was fine (it was on all the pumps I have stripped over the last 20 odd years). The two obvious failure modes I've regularly seen are:

• the rubber shroud of the seal perishing (either through old age or having been sat for years drying out and then ripping), which allows water around the edges of or through the seal;
• and the mating face (to the carbon disc) on the impellor being scored and not flat preventing a good seal which allows water down the centre of the seal.

I suspect another mode (I've never measured it) is that over time the spring in the seal sets and gets corroded which as the mating faces wear (or the impellor moveves on its shaft) reduces the pressure between the two.

I would suspect your problem may well be #2 if you can see nothing untoward with the seal itself. Assuming the seal is OK it's very important to get the running face on the impellor flat and running parallel to the seal and well seated.

When you install the impellor you should feel a nice compression of the seal spring before the impellor bottoms out on tube the shaft runs through. You have to be mindful of the fact that if you have to take much off the running face on the impellor you may have to fettle the blades on the impellor as they may may now foul the pump body when in final position.

Neil

Interesting

Hardly any scoring (circumfrential (?) not radial) so I carefully lapped it on a stone and reassembled - yes felt the rotor pushing down on the seal. My test was to carefully pressurise with an air line in the drain void and no leak was heard although blow by eventually happened as pressure was increased. Yes this could have blown the rubber seal but it didnt so I am suspecting a small bit of rubbish compromised the seal. We will see as I will refit it!

Tim

Seems like a sensible way to do it, might try the pressurisation trick myself - thanks.

It's worth adding of course that until I run mine I wont know if that works either :D

All I can say is that when I extracted the pump and "spun" the rotor shaft by hand it felt v stiff so I thought the bearing had gone. Not so as bearing beautifully smooth. Cleaning up and polishing the rotor seal face and reassembled it "spun" smoothly as my backup new spare.

Tim

Neil,
Very good thread, is there any chance of a blow by blow write up for David's suggested technical section, in case anyone else decides they have sufficient skills and/or the facilities to do the same modifications themselves. :D


Brian
8227 8)

Brian, not forgotten your request just not got round to converting the sketches to decentish drawings yet!

The holiday season has rather slowed down progress but I've spent the last few weeks getting to know the interior again. I'd forgotten how many clips there are, how many were bust and how poor the TAV is in this area (note to self - you can never take too many photos!). It's been like doing a jigsaw without the box   ???

Anyway, after a few weeks identifying what was need, who sells it and how it goes together I've completed the trial run. The most difficult bit..........fitting the bloody heater. It's only four bolts but took me about 3 hours and a half broken back. It's in and it ain't coming out again. Several bits needed a good going over, particularly the heater controls and the associated cables. The ashtray was stripped and re-crinkle painted and I haven't yet finished the glove box lid. The plastic is all cracked so I've glued up the cracks and am making a thin aluminium backing plate which I shall bond on to give it the bit of robustness it is missing.

The best thing about the LMC do for me is the injection of enthusiasm and envy of those that are actually able to drive their cars. Came at just the right time for me  :D

Onwards and upwards.

Thanks Neil,
She's looking great, whatever you do don't despair as when you eventually get to drive her, all the doubts will disappear like magic :D
That ahtray looks very much like the one in my 2c, I'll have to have a look as I know I have at least one spare.
Any chance of getting a glove box lid in better condition off of ebay Italy or elswhere, I would have thought there would be some about still.
With you 100% on the photos, as I've sometimes forgot what went where in the space of a day or 2, but with digital cameras in phones it's so easy now.
Like yourself, although my heater is a bit different, I thought "Never Again" but I'm still saying that after having had to have it out 3 times so far, and I still get bugger all heat at the cabin end ::), can't believe anyone could have designed a heater that is so hard to get at, but knowing how manufacturers stick cars together, the heater would have probably have gone in before any of the dash and associated items went in.
Sorry I missed you at the AGM due to me arriving at 3.15pm.

Brian
8227 8)

I have in my mind this vision of them suspending the heater from two bits of string across the assembly hall and slowly building the car around, above and beneath it !

The glove box lid will be fine when I've done. I've replaced very little of the car in reality, I've a bit of an obsession with originality where appropriate  and I don't mind a bit of patina so I've purposely avoided buying new or better where possible.

We must have just passed at the AGM, I didn't see your car otherwise I'd have stopped a bit longer.

Although I haven't posted for a while I've not been idle :)

Sorting out the trim has been far more of a jigsaw puzzle than I anticipated. Getting the box down from the roof was the high point! There must be about 378 different permutations of which only one is correct - I am now expert in at least 350 of them  ::)

After about a month of trying to solve the puzzle, understand how the door and windows can and should be adjusted, getting stuff cleaned and made I'm off again.

All the trim on the passenger side is now in, the window runners are now set up (although final set up can't be done until the seals are in) and the rear side window is in. I've taken all the horrible little metal clips out and bedded everything on a  smearing of silicon to protect the paint. Along the way I had to get a new metal frame for the bottom of the front quarter light made up (courtesy of my dad), knock out and re-braise in new screws for the rear side window and fettle and pack all the window runners and mechanism.

So moving along again nicely now and something to show for the work - closer to the finish line than the start  :D

Looking good Neil,
final straight coming up, hope we shall see her next year.

Brian
8227 8)

Has the trim been the trickest bit to date?

David

Brian,
I had to take the Multipla in today for it's MOT. Rob whose done all our family's MOT's since before I can remember, asked "when am I going to MOT that bloody Fulvia": summer next year I promised - gulp!

David,
I think certainly the most frustrating. My own fault through not taking enough photos or notes when I took it all off, and thinking it would be straight forwards.

To give an indication I decided to do the passenger side first (to "learn my trade" so to speak). I sorted everything out and cleaned, polished and repaired everything (for one side) and went and got all the fixings (if anyone wants any 2.2 or 2.9mm stainless steel self tappers I've got hundreds of them).

I started by bedding the side window in its runner. When I fitted it I found I'd selected the correct runner but not the correct glass (they have a small but perceptible curve to them - they are handed), so I had to take it all to bits again. I then fitted it and put  in the rear glass runner but I couldn't get it to sit far enough back (to give a nice line on the window to bodyshell when shut) - it was fouling against the top of the door. So I had remove it all, take out the felt runner I'd glued in and trim the top of the metal runner, repaint it then put it all back again; probably never sat correctly from the factory.

The large rubber seal stainless steel trim that runs around the bodyshell looks the same both sides, but on the front A pillar it has (again!) a slight curvature. I fitted it from the back forward - so after all my careful preparation and fitting (cleaning, polishing, lining up and fettling 2mm screw holes), including a dry run; how I didn't notice I don't know, I bed it in silicon get to the last two screws and find I've prepared and fitted the wrong one. So it all has to come out again............and so it went on!

All that said, there is a satisfaction that now I know, and I can see that it is going back properly. Hopefully the drivers side should be a lot easier, if only because they'll be the only bits of trim I've got left in the box (if you reduce the opportunities for the fool to make mistakes, he will make less mistakes :D).

But no disasters anyway...  Nothing damaged, everything cleaned up well.  I'm guessing it was all pretty well perfect before you started.

Any tips for glues, or unglueing?

David

Neil

Its looking great. Didnt realise that you has painted it white (or is the light?)?

Tim

Update - which I should have done earlier in the summer re my water pump issue. It didnt work, as I refitted it ran it and it was absolutley fine. Then next morning puddle on the ground. When running no leak, but static I suspect the seal bellows spring had rusted somewhat and lost its push on the seal. Very curious. Needless to say I had to fit my spare new pump for a trip to Pembrokeshire, and it has performed very well since.

Stripping the old pump (again) I could not see why it leaked. I may get round to doing Neils resealing mod some time if the prices of spare pumps continue to rise.

Tim

It's the light Tim, its Grigio Escoli (a sort of metallic silver grey).

Generally the trim was in good nick, but pretty much every bit needed some tweeking here and there (planishing down raised screw holes, straightening tatty ends etc). Then a good clean and polish.

Taking the trim off is really just a "gently does it" approach. Small screwdrivers wrapped in paper I think I used. For the small self tappers I bought a new sharp screw driver but even then I bet 50% rounded off.

I haven't glued anything yet as all the window trim is retained with small self tappers, but I have seated everything on beads of silicon. The rationale for that is that it will ease the installation preventing hopefully the paint being scratched and also, when set, prevent water getting in underneath the trim, which inevitably capillary's up/down the screw threads and attacks the bare metal in the hole where you have put the self tappers. Nearly all these small screws were rusted on mine. Some broke when I took them out and nearly all the small holes had rust around them - nothing major but it always starts somewhere.

The push on trim (around the seams) I'll probably use No More Nails or some such - I'm certainly not putting those dreaded spring clips back!

Hi Neil
I've been using this thread as valuable info for a while but now can't access the website you originally set up. Do you have a new address?
Rodney

Hi Rodney,

I stopped the other site as it was costing to much and I got mucked around by Yahoo. If you want any photos or anything let me know - I can stick them all on a stick if you want?

For one reason and another it's a while since I have done much worth talking about, but I have just finished setting up the passenger door, it's seals and the glass.

Neil

Hi Neil
I've sent you a pm
Rodders

Well, after a period of relative inactivity it looks like I'm able to get back on track. Today we got the fulvia out and turned it round so that I can crack on with the drivers side, hopefully I'll be posting some progress again soon!

As an aside I spent the morning staring at my dads 1927 Douglas EW 350 (that he's been restoring for 40 years!), both of us trying to work out how the engine sump guard might look, most have had them removed. So, should anyone know please drop me a line :)

Neil, both the bike and the car look fabulous. The colour is superb, was that the original colour or your choice ??

Best wishes,

                Andy

Looking great Neil,
I know it's taking a long time to get it back on the road, but when you do it's going to be spectacular.

Brian
8227 8)

Thanks Gents :D

The colour is the original colour, although my favourite colour is the deep Lancia Blu, which was the colour the car was painted when it I purchased it. I was undone by my decision to restore the car to the specification "the factory intended and the first owner wanted", as on stripping the paint I found it had been repainted twice, first red then Lancia Blu - so back to the Girgio Escoli that I found in the door shuts and under all the other paint!

The photo of the bike is a bit ropey, I'll see if I can find a better one that does it justice.

looking really good! cant wait to see the finished product

Neil

It's been long enough!!

Update please. No excuses for not having it mod by now.....

Tim

The car looks really great, I am at a similar stage with my Fulvia, fttfing the rubber trims around the doors ect, a very slow job though. :)

Thanks Tim & Dave

Work hasn't exactly stopped but I've spent the last 9 months working in London so time to get on the car had been in short supply. That finishes at the end of April so hopefully things will speed up. However, the drivers side trim is now all finished and I've stripped the seats. They need the frames shot blasting, the cracks repairing and then painting. The cushions have collapsed so I've a trimmer lined up to make some new, from the old as patterns. I've found a company in Burton who have a good reputation for radiators so they're lined up for the recore, also all the plating and polishing is ready to go to Derby Plating - although I suspect I'll wince at the cost :) But just can't find the time during the week to get it sorted.

I'm determined it'll be ready for spring next year.

Hi Niel,

Good to hear that progress is still being made. Hope you make your target of Spring 2013. I'm determined to have our Fanalone at the Fulvia 50 celebrations in May 2013. Wonder how meany we can muster? 

Robin.

Some photos of my brothers car showing the strengthening put in the sills and around the front inner arches.

Things still ticking along. Radiator is back and installed, plating should be back in the next week and seat frames are finished waiting to go back to the trimmers.

The frames themselves where badly cracked in many places. Had them shot blasted then strengthening welded in and now back having been stove enameled.

Some of the goodies that have come back from Derby Plating. Lovely job...I would take a photo of the bill but it makes me cry when I read it  :'(

Just for those small items Neil or a whole lot more?!

Obviously he knew they were for a Fannalone and charged accordingly......;)


P

No, there was a fair bit more but mostly small stuff (no bumpers or anything that big). Plating ain't cheap !

Had you used them before? Recommended as best service/quality or best value....or maybe not the latter at this point!


P

Yes, for over 20 years and my farther before. They are very good, but they know how to charge. They are also on my doorstep.

http://derbyplating.co.uk/

Good to know....tell me Neil, the work your father had done, how has it stood up to the test of time?


P

Yes, my father and his various friends have been involved in car restoration since the early '60's. So stuff they have had done has been for a variety of cars and motorbikes. Various items on his Alvis (on the road since the late '70s are still in very good condition as are all the bits on his Aurelia, same goes for other cars they have been involved with.

I'm sure other LMC members have had work done by them, their views would be worth seeking.

Excellent, a recommendations list would be very useful for things such as chroming, metal work, paintshops and all and other things need doing to a Lancia!!!!!



P

I have now finished rebuilding the locks (bit fiddly), gear lever and handbrake. Hopefully I'll get the seats back soon so I can finish the interior.

some more

and more

One set of re-upholstered seats waiting to go back in  :)

Frames restored and strengthened, stove enamelled, new cushions, elastics and covers all hand stitched. Nice job, well pleased, wallet on life support..........just another restoration :D

Not my car but my brothers, which we turned right side up this morning.