Lancia Motor Club

Hello all,

I start here a topic on my fist series (one carburettor) Fulvia berlina! She was bought in 2009 as is, with a lovely patina paint (still cellulose) and as new interiors. The only non original part I found out just a few months ago is a 2C gearbox.
The car has it serial number 1246, making it the 246th Fulvia to leave the factory as they started at 1001. I think it's the first one registered in Portugal and one of the earliest still running!
Since then I haven't done anything in the car except miles and miles, it has been a surprise, and he only reason I don't use it as I would like is because it's a little bit limited in terms of power. She really struggles when climbing, I think the longer ratio gearbox makes it worst.
I came across a period Nardi intake manifold some months ago for the one carburettor version and thought it would be a perfect period mod to make the car more pleasant to drive.
I was able to get a rare Weber 38dcoe as I was told it was the one used with this manifold.
But putting a bigger carburettor doesn't work alone, so first I studied the possibility of fitting a 2C head, only to find out that the intake is different.
So I was thinking of fitting the 2C camshafts, does anyone know if they are they interchangeables?
The 2C version also has a higher compression ratio.

Ricardo

Fantastic looking car Ricardo, if you can liberate a few more horses it'll be even better...

Ricardo,
I'm not sure if you can fit a 2c head as I think you'll find that the angle of the V is different, I'll have a look over the weekend and see if I can find out a bit more, same with the camshaft.
If you can go the 2c head route you'll need the inlet manifold off a 2c which takes solex Phh 32's, now those I can help you with.
I fitted a pair of Dellorto 32 DHLB's so I have the original pair of the solexes spare that you could have on loan to see if they make much difference, they were overhauled when I put "Fay" back on the road in November 1999 and were only in use for a couple of years, you would also need the aircleaner assembly, although initially you could try them with sox if you can't obtain a aircleaner, as I have the trumpets as well.

Brian
8227 8)

Thank you!


Hello Brian,
I was thinking they had the same angle because of the came engine capacity! I would like to try and adapt the Nardi kit I have before trying new approaches, any ideas on how to confirm if a 2C camshaft fits the 1C head?

As a mater of curiosity, you fitted the Dellortos why, easier to tune and runs better? I had also to remove the Solexes from my HF because of those reasons, the car is marvellous now with twin Webbers.

Hello Ricardo,
I did a bit of Fulvia reading and checking, There doesn't appear to be any difference between normale and 2c camshafts nor the 'V' angle, if you check specifications in 'La Lancia' they are the same, the increase in power is mainly due to twin solex Carburettors & inlet manifold, and with the increase of compression ratio to 9-1 instead of I think it was 7.2 -1 with the Normale.
I'm not sure if this was achieved with a change of pistons or the 2c cylinder head, so if you don't achieve what you want from the Nardi kit, then it would seem a relatively easy upgrade if the pistons are not involved, if they are, skimming the  cylinder head may help.
Dellorto 32 DHLB's are better built than the solexes, they have the advantage of all the jets etc being accessible from the top rather than having to take the solexes off to get at them as they are underneath.
There is no visible difference in overall performance but the dellorto's run and idle smoother than the solexes, and seem to stay in tune for a long time. in fact I think it's something like 6 years since mine were touched, if not longer.
I also fitted a 'filter King' filter & pressure regulator about 2000, as the early Fulvias didn't have a fuel filter and I was pulling all sorts of rubbish up from the petrol tank, I have also fitted an electric fuel pump up near the fuel tank with a lighted switch on the dash, this is only used for priming the carburettors; after the pump stops ticking I pump the accelerator pedal 6 times, pull the choke fully out, then operate the ignition switch, she always fire 1st or 2nd pull, I don't touch the pedal until the running has settled, then push the choke nearly home, and pick up the revs on the pedal,  touching the pedal before then may result in flooding the plugs and or stalling.
I also have a simple electronic ignition system fitted which only use the points as a trigger so there's no wear on the contacts.

Brian
8227 8)

I love "starting rituals" ; the do you/don't you touch the throttle, the number of throttle pushes and so on

My personal favourite was our DINO. 

Ignition on, wait for fuel pressure (change in pump noise) no choke , three slow accelerator depressions, 2 Hail-Mary's and turn the key. As soon as the first plug fires, pick up on the throttle. Wait for 5 mins warm up before you begin to think about going anywhere .....

It's then another 20 mins before you can think about using second gear

Yes, my ritual is completely different to Brian's even though I have a Fulvia. Wait for the pump to go quiet, choke right out, it fires first time with a few dabs of the throttle (sometimes second), choke straight back in and hold it on the throttle  until the oil pressure is up then gently increase. Within a very short time it's ticking over by itself. Have to say it was a lot more unpredictable before the electric pump, especially after a period of not being used.

Out of all the Fulvias we have owned over the years, our current GTE is the best one we have had for starting after a few weeks of non-use......and I am not really sure why. No electric pump and it still catches after just a few seconds of turning over with full choke and foot pumping. Then choke off, a few revs - 1,200 rpm - for a couple of minutes then choke off and away we go. Maybe the valves in the petrol pump are in particularly good order thus ensuring fuel remains well up the pipe to the carbs.

On the subject of electric fuel pumps, ever since we first had Aurelias (since 1978! and we still have that first one as its like a member of the family), I fitted electric fuel pumps bypassing and removing the mechanical one.
At the moment however, I am going through the process of re-fitting the mechanical fuel pumps as I realise the electric ones only have a certain life and if the dynamo plays up one can travel an awful lot further in daylight in a car with a mechanical pump as opposed to one with an electric one. I am leaving the electric ones in the circuit for priming as others have suggested.
Chris

I should also have said that I never have to use the choke on our Aurelias which have Weber 40DC type twin choke carbs  - just pump the pedal whilst turning overtill it catches and then the engine will idle with no cjhoke almost immediately - whereas I do have to often use the choke, even when warm,  on our 1st series B20 which has two separate Weber single choke carbs.
Chris

I even have a starting ritual for the Y10 Fire. Ignition to first position, wait for the fuel pump to stop ticking, half choke, two strokes on the accelerator, turn the key and catch it with about one third throttle. It fires second turn of the engine as regular as clockwork. Actually, given the size of the engine maybe it is clockwork!

Frank

Before fitting the elctric pump I used to wince with every drawn out start, as it hurt hearing the starter grinding away and the carbs on choke 'Whoosing' away with no sign of life, or confidence she would eventually start.

Brian
8227 8)

Regarding the Nardi manifold with Weber carb, I wonder what difference this would make on its own without changing camshaft, compression ratio, valve sizes, gas flowing the ports,  exhaust manifold etc etc.
Its certainly an attractive looking tuning modn but simply putting more fuel and air into an engine doesn't really do a lot on its own in my experience.
When I was at school in the 60's, a schoolfriend had a Renault Dauphine to which he fitted twin single choke Webers (as opposed to the original stock single carb). Apart from putting negative camber on the rear wheels to improve handling (apparently!), he did nothing else. The twin carbs looked great, the induction roar sounded great.......but the car was actually slower! We timed it along the Great West Road between the Cherry Blossom roundabout at Chiswick and Rivercourt Road at Hammersmith and no matter how the car was driven it was a little slower than before. Mind you, my friends street credibility rose so he would say the exercise was worth it.
Chris

Starting rituals.  The Simon Dino system same as on my early 308GTB in ignoring second gear for a distance from cold.    I never knew why but must be a basic fault in design or manufacture as seems a common problem with the non V12 Ferraris.  Mind you I once had a 250 which was quite dreadful apart from the actual engine. Enough - off topic. 

""Regarding the Nardi manifold with Weber carb, I wonder what difference this would make on its own without changing camshaft, compression ratio, valve sizes, gas flowing the ports,  exhaust manifold etc etc.""

It's a question of whether the engine is under carburated or not. I remember David Vizard's book "How to modify your mini" recommending carb work as the simplest upgrade on an "A" series engined car and putting a gas flowed 1.5 inch SU on my Morris Minor certainly made a difference. But if you put too big a carb on an engine it can slow down gas velocity in the induction tract with adverse effects.

If the original carb on the Fulvia was specified for economy and larger carbs were fitted to heads with similar porting for the more sporting models then the upgrade would probably be worthwhile.

Nardi probably knew what they were doing? Give it a try. You can always switch back.

Frank

Years ago a friend of mine poured over the Vizard book then spent a load of time and money tuning up his old Mini. He then 'raced' me in my brothers stock 850cc Mini City. He beat me to 60 mph by about 4 seconds, but by the time we got to 70 I'd caught him. I can still remember the horror on his face when I then overtook him!

His top speed was stuck at just over 70 and Dave's 850 eventually crept up to about 80.

A very interesting tale Neil.

It's all a question of what the tuning setup is designed to achieve.

Hello Brian,

I dont have the "La Lancia" book, and on the books that I have there is no indication of the camshaft. Do they say if  the 1C and 2c camshafts are the same? Same opening angles etc?

If they are I'll keep mine, and skim the cylinder head to reach the 2C compression ratio. I know the 2C valves have a greater diameter.

I also have the same starting ritual! But I dont have an electric pump yet, so every time I have the car stopped for more than one week I have to take out the fuel hose going to the carb, suck the fuel back up the hose and connect it again. Not very practical!

Can you give me the specifications of the pump you have?

Ricardo

I really dont know what more differences cars with the nardi kit had. I think that at least they must had a different camshaft and higher compression ratio , so I'm trying to do that for now. Then combining different jets on the Webber to reach a smooth ride and nicer to go uphill.

If it doenst work I'll go back to how it was!

Hi Ricardo,
Just found the specification for timing for Normale & 2c, as well I checked the Tavoli Parts list, and I'm afraid first look in La Lancia that I thought indicated the camshafts are the same, was incorrect.

I've attached 3 documents that are self explanatory, I've also highlighted the differences in pink for the timing.

Information from the Tavoli regarding part numbers and use.
818.00 Normale Cylinder Head Part Number 1107160
818.100 2c Cylinder Head Part Number 1107674, this was also used for GT and 1.2 Coupe.

818.00 Inlet Valve Part Number 1107188
818.100 2c Inlet Valve Part Number 1191412

818.00 Exhaust Valve Part Number 1107191
818.100 Exhaust Valve Part Number 1191413.
So in fact there seems to be nothing in common whether or not you could fit a 2c Cylinder Head Complete I'm not sure. but you'd also need to fit the Solex twin Choke carbs and manifold to go with the head.

The Final Drive on 818.100 2c is higher than that for the 818.00 Normale.
hope this helps
Brian
8227 8)

Hello Brian,

Thank you very much for the images, they will be very helpful! If I fit the 2C head I'll need a new intake manifold and the Nardi one wont fit.

 The 2C camshaft stay open longer, if I fit them and grow a little on the compression I think I'll have a good result.

My car has already the 2C gearbox, so less one trouble and closer to the 2C!

Ricardo