Lancia Motor Club

Early birthday present  ;D. Thanks Guy for intro....

You are welcome Tim - did Gary manage to get it running first? Did he find the ignition key or do you need a new lock?

Never towed a Stratos on a trailer but I suspect that you've got a lot of the weight behind that axle line. How did it tow?

Keep us up to date with progress, it'll be good to see that car up and running again.

Guy

Yum!!!

If you fell you want Strictly back, I'll do a straight swap!!!!

Very very nice..... when will you be posting the full story????

                        Andy

Thanks Andy, but I'll pass on the swop! It'll keep me quiet for a while.

You still need to collect your forum award. Coming to Matching Green on 16th?

Just trying to think what I got for my birthday. I know it wasn't a Stratos.

Actually with its weight distribution near 50/50 we had problems with too much weight on the hitch. As positioned in the photogragh I estimate there was c 70 kg to lift the hitch. It towed fine at legal speeds but we did get a wobble at 70 so slowed down.....

Nice colour

Shades of Grey...

Sexy ;D ;D ;D ;D

Now you're talking!

It's a great looking replica that a friend of mine had for almost as long as I've had mine! The last time they were out together mine was still a red stradale replica, it was changed back in 1995 to the square arch group 4 body it has now! It amazed me what good a condition it was in when I saw it for the first time in 18 years a couple of months ago. Just a light covering of dust but it appeared to have been put into storage with a lot of sympathy. Gary, it's first owner  bought it from Courtney Garage in Woking, it was professionally built by Bob Pilott (who was tragically killed in an accident on the M40 earlier this year) when he was Gerry Hawkridge's only approved build agent.

Hopefully Tim will be able to recommission the car carefully with some new belts, hoses, a fuel system overhaul and a few other bits and bobs and we'll see it out and about soon enough!

Guy

What engine does it have?

12v Alfa Romeo V6

I note from the file the engine came from a numpty alfa owner in Hampstead. One of the large garage bills reads recovered non working car. Found it ran out of fuel. Runs well when a gallon added. Another reads recovered non working car. Cam belt broken. Fixed for large amount of folding....

Priority will be belts.....

Oh and tyres like new but rock hard. Guy do you have a source of the large 285 40 15's

Are you sure the tyres are that wide?

I cropped it to show the tyres better.

Dear David the clue is in the weather conditions. ie snow ie thinner tyres. If you look closely at the shades of grey trailer pic you will see the rims are the same as we had to fit 2 wide tyres on one side so it would go onto the trailer.....

Hmmmm - sorry, not my size Tim! I've had a quick look at the usual online suppliers and prices are kinda high... On that basis I'm dreading having to get a pair of 345*35*15's for mine!
The guys who have bought Lister Bell kits also get wheels from that company but he uses 16 or 17 inch rims so there is more choice. I guess it's a case of shopping around and grabbing whatever you can find Tim unless you want to change the wheels as well? If you post on the Stratos forum you might get someone who has found a source for that size recently?

Guy

Thanks Guy. I factored in a bit of a challenge. I went to my "normal" tyre supplier/fitter and none of his suppliers had that size in anything.

I kinda like the Compomotive wheels (I like your coffin spoke ones too...). Your wheels must an extra inch wider and I thought mine were wider than Simon's tractor wheels. What size are your fronts wheels and tyres?

Tim

Fronts are 8*15 rims with 225*50*15 Pirellis and rears 12*15 rims with 345*35*15 Pirellis too. Gerry has these rims back in manufacture again but it's an expensive change to make as you also need to change the front and rear hubs, new bearings and brake discs at the same time.

Guy

New tyres then...

My birthday today - still waiting for my Stratos to arrive .....

Love it, want one , NEED one

Great purchase and cannot wait to see it on these lovely , empty roads !

Happy birthday Simon

Happy birthday Simon... You got some great toys already!!

I am thinking I could bring the little beast down in the back of our transit it is soooo small  ;D

If that size tyre is a problem and you like the look of the existing Compomotives, aren't they split rims? If so is keeping the centres and replacing the rather tired rims with a size for which tyres are readily available an option? Or am I being naïve and such a course would be ridiculously expensive?

Frank

Frank I think the split rim centre is sized for the rim its self and actually the rims are in really good shape albeit in need of a bit of a polish... so I am thinking of tyre softener. Any thoughts?

Tim, that really is sounding better and better. It's nowhere near Clarkson's quip that he repeated numerous times on Top Gear when he drove a Hawk Stratos ..... 'built by a bloke with a hammer in a shed in Birmingham'.

I'm sure you will get a huge amount of fun out of it, both in the recommissioning and in its use.

With regard to 'tyre softener' I would have a word with James (aka Chugga Boom) at Minera tyres, he has the expert knowledge. 01978 757052.

                                   Andy

Even if they are rock hard there might still be some value to be had from them.  Autosolos come to mind.  They're a cross between a driving test and a sprint.  All in one direction and faster and more flowing than a driving test but constrained by a regulation size rectangle to keep the speed low enough that helmets and overalls and all sorts else are not required.  They tend to be somewhere very open like an airfield so nothing much to hit.  Get some warmth in the tyres and they may stick ok, if not does it matter?

If there's a risk they'd fail then that's a bit more serious.

It could be a good way to shake it down.
 

Ah! I was thinking it was the width of tyre that was difficult to source for 15" rims. If it's 15" rim tyres in general then of course that's different. What a toy though!

Will Sarah be on the insurance? If so, then I suspect you will have a fight for the driving seat every time you go out!!!!

                              Andy

I thought the Michelins were expensive until I saw the Yokos.

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/michelin-tb5

https://www.tyreleader.co.uk/car-tyres/yokohama/avs-v-1/285-40-zr15-92w-301053

Interesting how the fronts and rears are different.

I didn't realise TB15s were road legal.  The Stratos gets a mention in the video clip.  Also interesting to hear how the measurements work, one system on tread width, another on total width.

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/michelin-tb15

Shame they dont do TBF15 in the right size. TB5's seem a bit marginal unless it dry.

Lovely looking car Tim and a worthy addition to the collection.
 For my birthday Margaret bought me some of those Dayglo bicycle clips from Aldi, the ones with the flashing LEDs. I can't complain, it was in retaliation for the £2.50 Postal order I put in her birthday card a few months back.

Nice one, maybe it will start a trend....

Peter

Is it possible to find a Lancia Stratos replica?This replica how much did it take to be finished?

Google is a wonderful thing y'know...

http://www.listerbell.com/

a serious amount of money in 1989... Built by the late ledgendary Bob Pilott of Courney Garages. If you add up the current Lister Bell price list you will get an idea....

Plenty about! Two current manufacturers are Hawk Cars (Originally Transformer Cars) and Lister Bell. Other manufacturers, all gone bust now were Allora, CAE, Corse and Napier Motorsport (variations on the same theme). Both current makers offer Stradale and Group 4 in round and square arch, LHD or RHD, stradale interiors or group 4 interiors. Multiple engine options from both manufacturers but the recommended units are Alfa Romeo's Busso V6.

Trouble is that very few come up for sale and usually pop up first through the Stratos Enthusiasts Club at www.stratosec.com, we're a friendly bunch too!

Come say hi!

Guy

Task to fit this coated (Zircotech) exhaust then finish the coolant replumb and maybe turn the key on Sunday...... ;)

Far too pretty to refit, stick candles in it and put it on the table !

Well I did fit it and finished the re plumb, belts and various other small recommissioning jobs and turned the key today.

Lovely sound !!!

But then she boiled over (traced to a faulty Brand New termostat) antifreeze all over garage floor and car. Still got to sort a leaking header tank and possible air locks but play suspended until the header tank is rewelded....

Oh yes I did slot a gear and do 1m in the garage so the clutch seems to work as does the gearchange.

You are getting there Tim!!! One day soon ...... !!

How about some more photographs.

                             Andy

When I get her back in the daylight!! She put my shoulder out yesterday - certainly living up to "shades of grey"!!!

Update. Finally nailed the reason it would not start easily. Repaired a broken engine temperature sensor lead, and now it starts on the button.

Sorting out miscellaneous electrical problems of a 25 year old car coming out of storage, a new set of tyres and a mechanical handbrake (it has a hydraulic handbrake currently....)  then I hope to get it to my friendly MOT man in the next couple of weeks.....

3 Months on and MOT with no advisories so "Shades" now legal!!

Loving the drive of her and getting used to Transit size holes to leave while going down the road!!!

Proprietorial gratuitous photo of vhb (very happy bunny).

Well done, wishing you many happy, exciting miles -  next we want a video of it hurtling down your local high street!!!


P

You and me both!!

Fantastic .......

Great! You will have fun with that.
Chris

Congratulations. But when you have finished gloating we want to see a full suite of photos....

Frank T

car back in garage after inaugural drive out...omg it is twitchy at above eh hem mph so am now going to check (but dont know the spec for this suspension setup) tracking 1-2deg toe in at front??? Also got a xmas present of camber castor tool, but that will have to wait till 25/12😤
I did do a cursory check of the speedo against gps and was quite pleasantly surprised in the brief glaces I made, just c5% optimistic. The tacho however is out by 33% as it was setup up originally with the Beta volumex and now has Alfa 12v...

Stunning Tim,
Can't wait for Sarah gets her hands on it ;D

Brian
8227 8)

Looks gorgeous Tim. As far as twitchy handling is concerned I'm sure you read the Viva Lancia article last month about the shock the new owner of a Stratos got when driving his. Turned out there's a bit of a design flaw with the pick up points? I'm typing this from memory so may be wrong. Anyway, maybe the article might point you in the right direction.

Thanks Stan.

I reread this on your prompting and there is barely enough there and concentrates on a design flaw at the rear. My car has a Hawkridge design up rated 131 (I think) basis. At the moment I am concentrating on the front. The tyres I have were recommended by Gerry Hawk and Longstones so as they are new and sticky (unlike I suspect M Leone's first set of tyres) I am concentrating on geometry to get some high speed stability. It goes in a straight line fine but as the yanks would say in Nascar it feels very loose. So far I have found it has sufficient toe -in (so I am not going to put any more on there) but I need to resolve cambe and more importantly castor which the factory spec is 4 degrees which is high but contributes to high speed stability. Time will tell if I can measure this or resort to having it done in a shop....

Tim, I'm no Adrian Newey but looking at a model Stratos I have beside me I can't help thinking that with the constant curve from nose to tail and a flat underside you are looking at a cross section of a wing. With the large spoiler at the back and the engine also there do you think it is developing lift at speed make the front feel 'loose'? I've noticed that the model, which is a highly detailed Alitalia version hasn't a chin spoiler. Has anything of this kind ever been mentioned with regards to the Stratos? Do you think a chin spoiler might add some stability?

Hi Stan aerodynamic lift was also postulated in the yellow peril article and ultimately dismissed. I think Bertone got the design right and obviously used wind tunnel modelling for his ideas. As the Stratos in circuit racing (Tour de France et al in 1973 etc) with only minor aero mods it seems to cope with high speed. I have to clarify my car was still able to track a straight line with no steering input at quite reasonable speeds but would dart off line if you sneezed...

Am ploughing through the front end geometry so next week will report back next week after sorting out baseline adjustments.

The Stratos was designed and built for rallying and I always understood its' propensity for changing direction at the slightest excuse was a deliberate design feature. Perhaps you would have to compare it with other Stratos owners experience to assess how abnormal the handling is.

Frank T

It's propensity to change directions  rapidly is a function of it's (extremely) short wheelbase. They all do that Sir!

As for feeling twitchy that's usually down to a combination of too high tyre pressure, poor geometry set up (and there are lots of variations/views out there) and worn suspension components.

Once you've dialled it all in they are a joy to drive but, like any mid engined car, you have to watch it approaching the limit (which is unlikely on the road) as lift off oversteer is rarely caught.

Guy (on the road for 25 years in a replica now...)

One of the best quotes from Richard Hammond about the Stratos - 'It changes direction like a frightened mouse'.

was Hammond speaking from personal exerience I wonder.....

Certainly general consensus is that my tyre pressures were too high at 24psi!! Some say as low as 17psi. This is going to be determined by trail and hopefully no error.

A contemporary quote that I recall was that the Stratos was the only car that should have been provided with wipers on the side windows as well as the windscreen ............. sideways came as standard!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations on getting it on the road! Lovely looking.
On the plus side it cannot be much longer than it is wide so the sideways thing might not be too bad :-)

Tim,
The car looks fab, can't wait to see it in the flesh. It's very difficult to tell from pictures but from above it looks as if the rear wheel could have some toe-out which might contribute to a stability issue. Of course some cars require toe out on the rear , and for all I know the Stratos is one of them.
  I had a Volvo T5R many years ago which was lovely to drive but a bit flighty at speed. I put up with it believing it was part of the inherent 'character'. It was only when I gave a lift to a mate who worked as an engineer at Williams F1 who immediately sensed something was adrift and advised me to get the rear alignment checked.
Having all the corners properly lined-up made a tremendous difference.
Knowing your meticulous attention to detail I'm sure you'll get it sorted

Hi Rob

Sorted the front to a vague idea of what should be right with only minor adjustments to increase the castor to about 5 degrees on both wheels (only adjust n/s) and also 1 degree neg camber again it was 0 on n/s and correct on o/s.Toe in 2mm. So I was wondering what track days in the UK run anticlockwise circuits as this is what the car was set up for by the look of it (only joking...).

The rears have a smidge of neg camber (but cant take much as 295's) and I cant check the tracking yet as my pit is occupied with a Fulvia over it but Strato's set up +2mm toe out at the rear, but these were on Stradale tyres not Group 4 which seem to benefit from a bit of toe in by all accounts (1-2mm in the cars original Transformer construction manual).

Have also not checked the distortion of my other half's camera!!!!

Out tomorrow hopefully for further test run. Have dropped tyre pressures really low (18psif, 22 psi r) as this is the "fix" recommended by the Stratos community; so will be keeping an eye out for tread temperatures.....

Doesn't sound overly soft on the front to me bearing in mind original Fulvia figures were about 22psi on the front and that was supporting the engine, gearbox and subframe. There's only the spare and radiator in the front of a Stratos.

And the spare is a space saver as 15inch x12 with tyre will not fit.... but the rad is double width and 2 fans!

Toe in or toe out causes a bit of confusion! When measuring it with an optical gauge that's set up at the rear of the car you need to read toe out off the scale which gives the wheels toe in. Setting the car up with toe out on the wheels will give an unstable ride. Especially on cornering.

Guy

Toe out, front or rear depending on engine layout,will usually help turn-in but at the expense of straight line stability. Mid-engined cars might behave differently but the same principles apply.
I suspect on a Stratos re-creation the rule book probably goes out of the window and cars need to be individually set-up. There are so many variables involved such as wishbone inclination, rim sizes ,weight distribution, tyre profile etc etc the original Stratos data will be fairly meaningless.
Sorting it out will be a fascinating exercise. I think I'd start out with a fairly safe toe-in configuration for the front and start playing with the rear toe in/toe out. Best practice in these circumstances is to make fairly big changes so the effect can be clearly felt. Once you detect whatever adjustment you are making is having a detrimental or a positive effect you can start working towards the optimal setting.
I've made cheap and cheerful laser alignment gauges using £3.99 laser spirit levels from B&Q. I'm sure you'll work out how to do this but if you need any pointers drop me a line.

So a bit of an update.

Using the parallel tub and straight edge of the rear wheel and some school boy trig I found OSR had 1 deg toe in and the NSR (in the photo!!) had zero!

So a bit of a fiddle on the nice adjustable trailing arms I got c0.4 degree toe in one both rear wheels.

Set the tyre pressure to 18 front 22 rear ground clearance front of tub (which is essentially a flat plate) 160mm,  rear of tub 169mm so not pointing up!

Went for my 20 mile check run and the rear felt really planted, but am still not getting a stable front end at speed in a straight line. Steering and cornering so far feel fine but not exploring that. It needs constant input on the steering at ehem speeds in a straight line (like it is tram-lining all the time), not as bad as previously, so more toe in or less, and more caster (I am near the limit of the geometry already at around 5 degrees). I did not notice and bump steer problems.

Any chassis experts out there??

After investing time with a digital protractor camber tool and some turntables I have dialed in 4.5 degree of castor and 1.1 deg neg camber with 2mm front toe in. Rears left untouched other then raising ride height by 5mm.Tyre pressure increased to 20psi front and 22psi rear

Went out for a drive on new years day and it is a different car, a joy to drive and steer. Not tried anything radical on the handling side of things as the roads are not dry enough but straight line acceleration, bump steer (none) and general high speed stability is all there.

I went out the next day too just to confirm or otherwise.

I may go back to minor tweaks but am grinning now. 2016 is looking good!

Happy New Year Tim. Glad to hear things are coming together and looking forward to copious reports of your adventures in 2016.

Frank T

Excellent news Tim. You will be belting around Essex (and further afield) with a huge grin on your face all summer I guess!!!

                   Andy

For those not on Facebook I decided today was a nice cool day to give "Shades" a run. I needed to get a Sport seat hinge repaired (improved...) by Omicron so that was the detail for the Strato's. A round trip of 140 miles. Almost fault less apart from the rear n/s top mount starting to undo itself resulting in a lot of alarming clonking on anything other than billiard smooth tarmac. Loved the noise and the grunt (in any gear...), and the high speed handling and cornering but boy do you need to concentrate when poodling around as the bl**dy car just wants to dart right or left. Oh and it got quite warm in the cockpit albeit still a cool day outside....

Certainly looks good. You should have inquired about an air scoop for the roof while you were at Omicron - might cool it down a bit. Think it will be the first run of the year for the Fulvia this weekend if it stays as nice as today. Just got to refit the oil filler - had it apart taking out what was left of the 'wire wool'. Scary sight, I'll be posting some photos.

Great to hear you got a really proper run.

Isn't darting round at low speed is sort of what it is supposed to do  :)

I guess the game now is to speak to any and everyone who's got one and see what makes the difference.  Is there anything on it you CAN'T adjust???

I am not going to adjust the roof (Stan) as I have a spare scoop that came with the car but thse are only fitted to Gp4 rally cars, and although mine has a round arch Grp4 body and tyres etc I am not interested in a liveried paint scheme ruining "Shades" of grey paint.... I will be down the plumbers merchants to knock up the approved additional side window positive airflow vent system made out of drain pipe elbows.

The clonk turned out to be a top mount coming loose :-( (large spring washer had failed). All sorted now. Am planning to get it measured for alignment to see how far out my home made measurements and adjustment are. Yes you can adjust everything. A dream car to work on (or as some would say - mess up).

Gound hog day yesterday.

Nine months after arriving on a trailer Shades returns under own motive force (not steam!) on a 250 mile inaugural run out to LMC AGM. Even stopped on M11 for 20 minutes on way home and temperature gauge (the only gauge the driver sees....) moved up a bit, she did not lose any water or use any oil. Result. Handling was great too so long as you concentrated!

Also won its class (mind you it was on its own....).

Snowy was a bit fed up though being in such a hot car. (Mobile sauna).

Thanks Mark Hall (and partner) and Alison Ure for organising the weekend.

Shades looked amazing at the AGM;D

Brian
8227 8)

Presume you drove it at 50 ? :D

50 what?? 3000 in top is totally illegal......

50 "shades" I assumed :)

Over the autumn I formulated a plan to try and understand what was wrong with the handling of Shades. Before I committed to my plan I thought I would have the setup redone just to see if it was a simple fix. So the car was booked into a local race shop (John Danby Racing) where the corner weights were checked (OK) and the toe, camber and caster were set (nothing too far out of line). After a test drive the senior engineer pronounced the car too stiff and recommended lowering the spring rate at the front. I was uneasy with this as the springs were later measured and found to be to the correct 325lb specification. I knew the rear shocks/springs were suspect and later found the rear springs were only 200lb rated and bottomed easily. I then decided on a plan of action (which took 2 months to execute).

So what did I do:

Found minuscule play in steering rack track rod (replaced with new/remanufacured unit from Rimmer Bros)
Found play in the bottom steering shaft/rack knuckle (bolt loose)
Found adjuster seized on front Spax coil overs (replaced with Gaz coil-over 325 lb units)
Had LEDA shocks rebuilt by LEDA and fitted higher rate 325lb springs.
Set bump steer to mild toe in on both compression and droop (<.6mm toe-in over max travel)
Set corner weights (tricky with 37.5/62.5% front/back ratio)
Set Caster to 5degrees
Set rear camber -0.3deg
Set Front camber -1.0
Front toe-in 1.5mm per side
Rear toe-in 1.0 mm per side
Tyre pressures 24psi
Adjusted ARB push rods as they had changed after all this adjusting.
Ground clearance measured at front back of tub 178mm Rear 168mm front.

After 2 months rebuild of of steering and suspension Shades finally came out of the workshop and into sunshine. A short test drive of some 20 miles showed that she is Transformed and has much nicer steering feel than previously.

I can sense self-centring which was not there before.

Happywith this as a starting point!

Hopefully she will be much nicer (and less scary) to drive ....

Loving it so far!!! I might just reduce the toe in after a bit more evaluation.

Do you think it was a lot of little things or "something wrong"?

.

I've just rejoined the LMC after many years & started looking through a few of the sections/threads when I came across this one.

I immediately thought this car seemed familiar so I dug out some old photos from many years ago & found these - your car alongside my old Dino-engined Transformer - back some time in the early '90's ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49217487592_4e54b4996d_c.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49216779213_d29ca97075_c.jpg)


.

Very nice! Where is JAB239T now?

.

- 329T ...

I sold it back in ~1994 to a guy named Chris C (Connolly ?) who lived nr Oxford.

After that I think it went to Japan ...

.

Was that somewhere in the West Midlands? Must have been many years ago 'cos I still had hair!! Not he second pic that's me on the, the other guy facing the camera is Gary Picken, the original owner of Tim's car.
Guy