Lancia Motor Club

When being sold my B12, I wasn't sure to start with if the seller had any documentation etc with the car.

I did get the original registration book as it turns out, with the complete (?) list of previous owners. I am now going to try and find out some more about them via help in Portugal.

The first owner/registered keeper was listed as the Lancia importer "Sociedade Universus" of Porto.

I am hoping over the coming months to accumulate more info to find out "who" this Lancia Aurelia B12 actually was in its former automotive life.


So, for owners of older or very old Lancias how much of a life story do you have about your Lancia, am sure we'd all be interested to hear?


P

To start with theres no longer any reference to the importer noted above in the Lancia directory of franchisees, but then I already knew that as they closed up shop in 1967!

http://www.lancia.pt/pt/concessionarios


P

I have no recorded history of my B20. This is because I omitted to copy the V5 which came with the car. This had to be sent to the DVLA, but stupidly I did not copy it. However, I recall that it was imported to the UK in 1963 and the first recorded registered keeper in the UK with an address in Shooters Hill Road in south east London. It still retains the same registration. There were a couple more owners, but I cannot remember any details. So, not a long story !!!!

The Gussie was bought from a local dealer, a friend of the family, my wife blames him for starting me off on the downward (as she sees it) slope into multiple Lancia ownership. A previous owner came from Tunbridge to see it, probably when it was at its worst, and was not impressed. .......... but at least it was still around!!!

The Appia was bought from Ben Courage. I am fairly, but not totally certain, of some of its earlier history. I believe Ben bought it from Cristo, who I believe imported it from South Africa. It still sports a Lancia Club SA sticker, so I presume was known in the SA Lancia circles.

That's enough, picking up on Frank's post, has anyone a detailed/interesting history? Has anyone any advice on finding a car's history?

                                         Andy

                                                               

Another place to start if details sketchy.

https://mot-history.net/


P

Hi Frank,
I've met a number of the Lancia owners from around Porto so do you have a list of the names? besides which Ricardo who I posted the reports and photos earlier this year of his journey in his Fulvia Normale Berlina, lives around there so he'd be a good contact.

Brian
8227 8)

Hi Brian, it is indeed Ricardo I've made contact with. He's very kindly offered  to make initial enquiries on my behalf and then see where it leads us. It will take a couple of months, so we'll see how things unfold.

P

This will be of interest to other Aurelia B12 owners on this board, especially Frank and Chris.

I bought my B12 berlina in 1997. I had always been looking for a berlina, and specifically a B12 , and found it advertised in the LMC Newssheet (or was it already then Viva Lancia?). It was in Sweden, near Malmö, I went there, bought it and drove it back all the way to Switzerland (well, not quite, there was the very practical car train from Hamburg to Lörrach, near Basel) - That was quite an expedition, my first Aurelia, I was driving it back alone, had to catch 2 ferries, and then drive quite fast to Hamburg to be on time for the car train boarding.

Well, the Lancia went well, although with a very noisy exhaust, and when I arrived home, I could check the papers that came with it. There was this red plastic etui, marked:
"Dante Cantoni", BRESCIA, Tel. 10-21
Inside a green document, like a passport, what is now I think called a Libretto.
And in that document, the full history of that car.
Initially (13.10.1954) owned by the Municipio di Brescia, with registration 47963 BS
At registration date, there is a mention that the car has to be inspected after a change of the headlights, according to new regulations, before the 9.01.1955. That change was done quickly, as the libretto shows approval of the new lights on 18.11.1954.
The libretto then mentions the new owner, Cesare Bonente, residente Brescia, with his birthdate (28.12.1932), and the change of ownership took place on 12.07.1961. So this nice guy, 28 years old, takes over a 6 year old flagship of the Lancia company - it may have already done a great many kilometers as an official car with the mayor sitting in the back, but would still have been quite a sight on the italian roads in the early sixties.
Finally, in a small pocket glued to the inside rear cover, I find a swedish registration, dated 8/7 1964, with the new owner's name, Sture Herman Edhlund. He was an optician, and kept and cherished the B12, registered ESH 203, until 1990. Then the Aurelia berlina was bought by Magnus Nilsson, the son of the long time president of the swedish Lancia Club, who finally in 1997 advertised it in the LMC newssheet.

Thats fascinating Sebastien, thank you for posting the history of your B12. So in total only 5 owners for yours and indeed 5 owners for mine including myself ( if we count the concessionaire). There are only 8 pages to the document, not sure if some missing from middle of it, but expect to find out.


1st. Sociedade Universus -  Porto, from 11/1955

2nd. Another very long Portuguese name I can't quite make out ( ie no point of me putting it on forum if I get 3/4 letters wrong) - Porto, from 04/1957

3rd. Armando Nery Teixedo - address(?) in Portugal , from 05/1961

4th Tomas Joaquim Coneia - address not clear in Portugual , from 02/1967

A guy bought if off the last owners relatives and then sold it to me, not sure if he was a dealer or just middle man acting on their behalf but not registered on my document

5th Myself

How we got it back to N Ireland is documented on my thread!



P

Andy, can you check back with DVA about details they have on their system for any of your Lancias especially the B20, it would be well worth the effort.

I suspect a few members have tracked down very fulsome histories of their Lancias, perhaps they can give a few tips that will help?

P

My B10 was a complete doddle as I am only the 3rd owner. It was registered and lived in Genova from 1953 to 1979 when Enrico Cavalitto bought it and I bought it from him in 1981. The green book had all the tax disc information from its time in Italy.
Conversely I have no idea about the history of my other Lancias which are UK-derived for before 1974 for any of them. Such a shame.
My Hands however is fully documented from 1922 except for a short gap 1945-7 but this was down the the assiduous work of the 2 previous owners.
Just realised I am waffling ............apologies

Don't DVLA records just go back to computerization/centralization (ie when DVLA took over from the local offices and the old green log book was discontinued)? Late 1970's?

I believe so , plus MOT history just back to 2005 or so, but details all fails/advisories in detail, so may be of very limited use as regards its whole history

P

Only basic stuff and nothing about who owned the car....

True, but gives you an idea of how the car has been looked after in recent years, whats been recorded as an advisory, what then needed fixed.

So you'd have an idea was the current owner of previous owners cherished or looked after it when in their care. Gives you a bit of confidence if say its up for sale and you can see for 8/9/10 yrs its passed each time and no advisories.


P

I am fortunate enough to have the 'Licenza di Circulazione per Autovettura' book as well as the full Automobile Club d'Italia records for my newly acquired B12. I therefore have the full list of owners from April 28th 1955 starting with Dottore Antonio Giuseppe Denani  as well as the Revisione (MOT) records with the final Revisione being issued on September 26th 2015.
The speedo shows 61,843 km and I have found nothing to think that this is not genuine although the vendor didn't make this a selling point.
The car is black and has had new paint sometime in the last 20 year and the interior was retrimmed properly in  grey cloth as original about 2 years ago. The engine has also been rebuilt recently as the liners had dropped over time as they do. The car has all original matching numbers, no new metalwork that I can detect and all the original Lancia trim in the boot and under the dashboard is all still there along with the ACI stickers for 1955, 1956 and 1957 on the reverse of the interior rear view mirror.

My car, B12 1755, was built at the very end of 1954 and first registered on 28.04.55 so is a little later than Sebastiens with no note of headlights being changed. I wonder why Sebastian's car had its headlights changed?

By the way I believe I am correct in saying that if you have the original Italian registration number for your car then it is possible to obtain the details of the owner(s) from the Registration department  for that Cummune,
Chris

Sounds a fantastic B12 Chris, congrats again.

P

It sounds as though you have a wonderfully original car there Chris, congratulations.

                                       Andy

As regards my own B12, according to Ricardo....

In Portugal most (if not all) cars were registered first to the importer, and only then to the buyers, I don't know if it was compulsory but at least all my classic cars are like that.
Please note that Lancias in Portugal were always very rare and sold in small quantities, so very hard to find information.The only B12 my father recalls seeing on the road was a RHD car from a friend of his, the car was later sold and suffered a crash during an Europe road trip, I believe it was dismantled. He has nowadays another B12 being restored.
I only know of two rolling B12s in Portugal.

Ricardo will contact by letter the previous owners on my behalf to see if any further flesh can be added to my B12 history!

P

I must say, Ricardo has been extremely helpful in gathering information in Portugal about Aurelia B12s.

As before there are two B12s on the road and another being restored, the Amaranto one.

The one up on the ramp is a mere 4 Portuguese registration numbers from my own, 92 Vs 96 ie before mine.......wow. But its build number is 96 before mine.

I will post up some more info when I'm on this evening again.


P

Modestine's history was very simple to research as I am only the 3rd owner in her 83 years and all three of us live/d  in the same small village in East Sussex.

Dot. Enrico Masala kindly supplied the early history from records he holds in Italy.

12th February 1932 she left the production line and went to Pinin Farina for her berlina body to be fitted.

4th March 1932 road tested and offered for sale but remained unsold until 1937.

10th March 1937 bought by Paul Einzig, imported and registered in the UK ERF 294. He was a notable newspaper columnist writing principly on financial matters, the Robert Peston of his day. He also published some 50 or so books many dealing with decimalisation. His family have donated all his manuscripts and papers to Oxford University.

1969.  Appears in the LMC register of Members owned by Mrs Ruth Telford-Einzig Paul's wife. Gerald Batt has a photograph of the car at an LMC event from around this time.

1974 Purchased by Philip Glynn a vet who would arrive in the Dilambda to attend to Margaret's horses when we lived at Horsted Keynes.

1978 Philip dismantles the car and embarks on a total restoration. The body is sent to the joinery workshop of my oldest school friend (we've known each other since we were 5!) for the ash frame to be repaired. A couple of days before Philip is due to collect the body an arson attack on the workshop totally destroys the body.

2002 Quite by chance I meet Philip and enquire after the Dilambda. He has had her rebuilt to almost a rolling chassis but lacks the funds to complete the job. I go for a look, am totally smitten, we agree a deal and she's mine. Morris Parry points me in the direction of the Carlton Carriage Co. body she now wears and the rest as they say is history. http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1239.0

I have started to try and track down any Einzig family survivors discovering that there was a son and a daughter. The son Richard an architect died in the late 1980s and the daughter married so the trail went cold although with a bit more effort I could probably trace her.

Knowing Modestine's history makes her ownership all the more special and especially so that I now live in the village where she has spent most of her life to date.

Robin.

Only one word Robin......glorious!

Thank you.

Anyone got the 1969 LMC photo to hand and or do you have period photos of Modestine from the 30s/40s?


P

" Morris Parry points me in the direction of the Carlton Carriage Co. body she now wears and the rest as they say is history."

How easy that sounds! But we know the truth, a dedication of love :o

Brian
8227 8)

I know I'm the third owner of my Fulvia. Like Andy I 'lost' the Italian paperwork with the owners, original Veneto number etc when I re-registered it here in France. I didn't take a copy, thinking I would get it all back. Keep meaning to ask if I can have a copy if it still exists. I know that the last place it came from was Treviso and the owners name was Sandro something (unfortunately not THAT one). It still carries the plastic sleeve up behind the mirror for insurance etc with a built in card disc for parking. That came from 'Carozzeria Castellana' in Castelfranco Veneto. In an idle moment I looked them up on Google Earth. They still exist in a lovely part of the Italian countryside. I've never thought about it before but 3 owners in 44 years is quite good going. I've also just realised I've owned it for exactly half its life now.

As per the NEC inquiries, the previous owner of 7 VMH B20 has information, plus transparencies of the period it was in his ownership back in the 70s, hoping we get to see the photos plus hear about it  on the forum.

As regards my own B 12, Ricardo has now contacted (with a photo of car just after being ex-barned!) the 4 named owners/addresses  and enclosed an SAE, hoping to receive something back!


P

The plot thickens.

My contact in Portugal, Ricardo, noted the second name on the registration document as having a part similar to a friend's. He mentioned this to the friend (Ricardo has known this friend since he was 3 yrs of age) who then proceeds to tell him it was indeed the Aurelia owned by his grandfather!!!! He owned it in the year he got married, 1957. Ricardo has sent him photos of the car as it was found 4 years ago hoping to they have photos of it in its prime and other information.....

Am a tad flabbergasted at this moment, but more than pleased!


P

That is the sort of result that we all hope for ....... and still cannot believe it when it actually happens!!!!

No further info has been forthcoming from Riccardos friend, plus one letter has been returned with the annotation "insufficient address" on it, so Riccardo is going to visit said address and see what transpires.

Hoping the New year turns up something of interest.


P

Well, well.....well........

Who would have believed it, got an update from Ricardo with the following attachment. Am really, really pleased!

Some of the dates don't tally ie, those on backs of said photos but maybe we can fine tune. Plus an Appia photo included

To say I'm delighted is pretty much an understatement!!!!!!!!!!!


P

Wow Frank,
Brilliant. What wonderful evocative photos.
No wonder you're a Happy Bunny ;D
I think you owe Ricardo a pint or three.

Brian
8227 8)

Fantastic Frank, what a truly magical find. Every right to be mighty pleased. Encourages me to get back on the trail of the Einzig family re Modestine.

Robin.

Those who have been following the “Lancia Charabanc poster” thread will be expecting this.

I have in my possession what I describe as the mortal remains of a Flaminia Berlina EJJ 87J. I purchased it in May 1997 and to my shame have not yet restored it due to work pressures and health issues. These two impediments are related and I am working on a final solution!

EJJ was imported via Sicily  in 1970  by Harry Manning for Daniel Victor Brostoff of London N6.

The Italian registration was MI 2573, Milan I presume, and the colour at import was Silver.

Harry resprayed it in a lightish metalic blue. Due to holes in his workshop walls he is also said to have partly painted some of his neighbour's stock of freezers in the same hue.

The next owner was Terrance Arthur Turner of High Wycombe. This was later in the 1970s, maybe 1974 or 1976.

Mr Turner sold it to Charles Cedric (Miff) Cook but there is no date stamp on this transfer of ownership. Miff Cook was an antiquarian horologist and EJJ's back window still sports a lovely British Horological Society sticker.

Alec Alexander wrote an article on EJJ in the LMC Journal in Spring 1989 in which he says it Srafford buck bought and sold it twice before it came to rest with Peter Roberts in Kent who seemed to have had a garden of rest for old Lancias.

In September 1989 Alec Alexander advertised it for sale, offers over £1,500, in the LMC news sheet as he had acquired another Flaminia. It was purchased by the motoring journalist Martin Buckley of Classic and Sportscar Magazine who wrote about it in the “running report” collumn till 1995.

When he advertised for sale in November 1994 I contacted him but an unfortunate string of domestic appliance failures meant I couldn't buy it and it was sold to someone in Cardiff who ran a bodyshop and hoped to use it for historic endurance rallies. His business premises were in the Cardiff Bay redevelopment area and when they were compulsorily purchased for a major development scheme he opted for total extinguishment of the business. That seems to have put an end to the rallying project.

In April 1997 a colleague who I had encouraged into classic car ownership told me he had seen “one of those cars you are always going on about” advertised in Classic Car Weekly. P.B&A Ross in Durham were offering one for sale. I immediately recognised the photo in the advert as being one from the final “running report” in Classic and Sportscar so I knew it was EJJ.

I wasn't going to let it get away again so I duly purchased it. That was the easy part........

It's a small world and I have connections with two parts of this story. I knew Daniel Brostoff, one time book publisher/ agent of Millfield Lane Highgate in the late 1960s, when he bought some Aprilia parts from me for a car that I think is now owned by Paul Mayo. And I just happened to be involved in transporting EJJ to Cardiff in April 1995 to deliver it to a new owner near Cardiff docks. What larks?

Colin

I love stories like this!!!!

Frank, you really must get on with this car!!!! Please let us know how this story progresses!!!

Good luck,

                   Andy

Latest up-date from Portugal.

Due to the poor weather and time pressures, its only this weekend that Ricardo can do some physical reconnaissance of the other two addresses/locations of owners on my registration document as the letters he'd sent came back insufficient address or unknown at that address.

I am still hoping for a bit more info, and if my luck holds out copies of the 6 photo collage previously posted.

As an aside the residence outside which the photos were taken in the late 50s by its first owner has just been sold off.........have a looksee and admire!

http://www.jn.pt/paginainicial/pais/concelho.aspx?Distrito=Porto&Concelho=Porto&Option=Interior&content_id=5032113&page=-1


P

Perhaps Simon can add to this thread if he unearths anything of interest?

Which reminds me, I must put a few more photos up of the B12 and its first owner

P