Lancia Motor Club

Having done some very basic research into aftermarket ignitions I haven't found anything which tickles my fancy and have decided to stick with points. An ignition amplifier seems as if it it could be a worthwhile mod and I wondered if anybody had any experience, good ,bad or otherwise with such a system...


This is the kind of thing I'm talking about;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201450279206?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D201450279206%26_rdc%3D1

I did run a Sparkrite2000 on a 1300 very nicely. You could switch back to normal ignition and feel some difference (but not much). I sold the car with it as a period enhancement.

Well maintained standard ignition will do just fine

P

I have a very simple system that was made by Bob Seaney from a kit bought from Maplins, it's been fitted for about 8 years and works a treat.
You do need a new coil and do away with the old coil and ballast resistor.
If the box it's in looks familiar it's because it's a butter substitute container ;D

Brian
8227 8)

Hi Frank

For sure, however do like the idea of the points acting as a trigger, rather than the full switch and having to be concerned about if/when they start to burn due to the back emf caused by the coil which eventually has an impact on timing etc.

Peter

Agreed P, but an amplifier arrangement can prevent the premature degradation of the points and maintain a more accurate setting for longer.

Ok, but if car not doing a huge mileage, out in decent weather the degradation is much less relevant to majority?

P

Hi Frank

That is for sure, on low mileage cars with regular checking, will most likely have little benefit, so the added complication would most likely not be worth it I guess. Also keeps the engine looks as original, though I guess it would not be too difficult to squirrel away.

Peter

No scientific prooof but subjectively "Fay" seems to run better and ticks over much nicer, and I don't have to do regular point resetting, I think having a straight coil system as opposed to the ballast resistor and coil set up is a better solution.

Brian
8227 8)

when squirreling away remember that they need a good earth and means of getting the heat away from the power transistors....

I must say, Brian's amplifier installation looks Utterly Butterly to me...

Ouch !! it's amazing though the number of people who seem to recognise it from somewhere, but can't quite put their finger on it.
Obviously too slippery. ;)

Brian
8227 8)

Hi All

I did a quick search on transistor ignition and came up with this writeup, which apart from the circuit details (you can skip that if not into electronics), has an interesting set of comments about the setup and longevity of the points setup..

https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/TransIgn.pdf

Peter

A couple of quotes from the PDF document:

"The circuit is designed to relieve the breaker points of electric erosion caused by
heavy current, thereby rendering point adjustment unnecessary after the first 5000 mi. until over
50,000 mi., so that ignition performance does not degrade below its optimum as time passes. I
used this circuit for five years, 1969-73, in a car driven across the continent three times in all
weather, freezing winters, baking summers, and a flood. Only Capacitive Discharge is better."

"Since point erosion is almost eliminated you may safely increase point dwell by up to 20% and
advance spark timing by 2˚ to retard rubbing-block wear and improve high-speed performance.
And widening spark-plug gaps by about 20% will improve low-speed running and starting."

"The advantage over then Standard ignition of this Transistorized ignition is only that the current
through the points is reduced well below what would erode them by sparks’ action. The points do
get beaten down by banging against each other, and the breaker arm’s fiber rubbing block gets
worn down by friction with the cam in the distributor, but these effects slow down and become
negligible after about 5000 miles provided the cam is greased adequately but not excessively.
The points get work-hardened by beating against each other; the fiber block becomes smoothed
and slippery, saturated with grease. After 5000 miles I did adjust the ignition for longer dwell
and advanced spark timimg; these remained practically unchanged for the next 75000 miles
until, with the change to Capacitive Discharge ignition, I advanced spark timing a little more.
That stayed put for the next 40000 miles, after which the cars were retired because I could not
get exact replacements for the brakes’ master cylinders. Otherwise I would still be driving them."

It's very interesting stuff. One thing which puzzles me is how do you physically adjust the dwell?

dwell is a funtion of mark space of the open close of the contacts so its a function of the contact gap. Electronic systems such as luminition does this electronically through timing circuits.

System fitted to Fay since 2007 with no problems, I did as suggested and fitted a new set of points and plugs.

Brian
8227 8)

Dwell should be checked from time to time with this as heal of points will possibly wear closing the gap (and retarding the ignition) only relevant for mega miles....Dwell is simple - I have a dwell meter bought at the time colourtune was all the rage. Clip across the points and get instant satisfaction that all is well with the ignition system...

I've never fully understood what a dwell meter did until now... http://www.howacarworks.com/ignition-system/checking-the-dwell-angle

I'm going to buy one!

I did chuckle when it said fit a NEW distributor!! Fat chance on a Fulvia

Indeed Tim, I was very pleased to buy a Marelli dizzy in mint condition last week which is destined for my new engine . I'd looked at the 123 unit but rejected it on the grounds that by the maker's admission, wear rates on the cap was quite high. This is how I came to be researching ignition amplifiers and Utterly Butterly containers...

Reading "how a car works" on the use of dwell meters I can't see how you can get readings for different cylinders. Surely the meter averages the dwell over all the lobes of the distributor cam.

Frank T

Assuming the disti has good bearings, and the points are not burnt etc, isn't the same result obtained by setting the gap according to the manual and then using a strobe light to set the timing?

From what I can see the only plus may be to pickup the variance due to a worn disti?

Peter

Are new dizzy's for Fulvias totally unavailable then? I'm surprised going by what seems to be an increasing number of parts remade.

Yes you can buy a 1,2,3 unit, but that is not a remade Marelli dizzy, I have one it is not cheap, but does a good job.

"Assuming the disti has good bearings, and the points are not burnt etc, isn't the same result obtained by setting the gap according to the manual and then using a strobe light to set the timing?"

Setting the points gap is an indirect method of setting the required build up of charge in the coil. The angle of dwell is what you are trying to set, so using a dwell meter is the direct and most accurate approach. Also the dwell meter measures dynamically whereas a feeler gauge can only be used statically. The instructions in "how a car works" cover initial setting, resetting after a bedding in period for new points and explains how using a dwell meter is accurate even when the points are well used.

Frank T

Absolutely right Frank and as Peter quite rightly points out, it's main benefit is enable wear in the dizzy to be compensated for by adjustment.
Measuring each event, which is what I'm interested in, requires an oscilloscope rather than a simple meter.

Yesterday I had all this explained to me by an older , wiser man... ;D 

Hi All

As a pure coincidence I had occasion to look at the current offering of oscilloscope add ons for Laptops. Amazing what you can buy now starting at £16.69 delivered...

Not a great sampling speed, but there are 20Mhz versions starting at around £40, even cheap ones with LCDs for around £25....

See

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Channel-PC-Computer-Digital-Storage-USB-Oscilloscope-Probe-CD-/121401801984?hash=item1c441c7d00:g:ASQAAOSwQItT3zw1

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Pocket-AVR-DSO150-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-USB-Probe-Kits-/141748299975?hash=item2100db68c7:g:2rMAAOSw-jhUJ6SR

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HANTEK-6022BE-PC-Based-USB-Digital-Storag-Oscilloscope-2-Channels-20MHz-48MSa-s-/271543870829?hash=item3f3946a56d:g:6yIAAOSwbqpTvPUf

I still have an big old HP analogue one from the 70/80s (not powered up for a few years now), hate to think what it originally cost new, I bought it 15+ years ago second hand for around £200 from memory.

Peter