Lancia Motor Club

Having just received my V5C and fitted my plates 'FAX 505K' I took my 1600 Sport for it's first UK run (29km) yesterday. Starting issues have been covered before on this forum and like many other Fulvias it started after 5 or 6 attempts with a mixture of revs and choke. Once idling on the drive I took the choke off and set off. For the first few km it was fine but I then started to notice that on inclines it was losing power and I had to keep dropping down a cog.
I then decided to give it a blast on the motorway and initially all was well until again on an incline it started to lose power, even by dropping down the box it was no good so I pulled onto the hard shoulder. The engine did not cut out and after a few seconds I set off and it was fine again for a period then intermittently lost power on and off until I made it home.
It started first time this morning and idled no problem for about 10 mins before I put it away.
I had put 20L of Shell V-power petrol plus 25ml of fuel additive into it before I commenced yesterdays drive, this had brimmed the tank so there was probably half a tank of unknown fuel already in it. Having said that on my test drive in Germany last November and on my journey (2 miles) to the MOT station in December apart from the starting it drove ok but idled quickly.
I have purchased oil, plugs, filters, Solex 42DDHF carb servicing kit as it's going in for a service/tune up in the next couple of weeks plus the non standard breather and vacumn pipes are being replaced at the same time so hopefully the issues will disappear.

Has anyone any pointers as to what else could be the issue, all advice/comments appreciated. Thanks.

Paul

Perhaps the choke is stuck on, due to the cable/lever not returnining fully?

If there is a fuel filter in-line, I would check it.  If not and the problem persists it would be worth putting one in, in case particulates in the tank or fuel lines are reaching the carbs.  I have a Malpassi Filter King with a glass bowl fitted so you can see any sediment.

Glyn, yes there is a fuel filter in-line, I will check it out.

Richard, the choke returns ok and the warning light goes out  so I don't think it's a choke issue.

Thanks guys.
Paul.

I'm with Glyn on this one and the fitting of a Filter King was more than worthwhile on my 2c.

Brian
8227 8)

Hello Paul

Almost classic symptoms of the Fulvia fuel pump gradually failing, which can happen.  Particularly with modern fuels, the rubber diaphragm of the fuel pump hardens and fails to deliver an adequate amount of fuel at higher revs or when demanded.  Although new diaphragms are listed, it might be worthwhile just fitting a new pump - they are remanufactured and not desperately expensive.  One of the benefits of having an electric priming pump for starting is that had you switched it on, and performance was reinstated, the answer to your problem is there.  (If fitting a new pump, do not over-tighten the fixing nuts and the face flange can distort.)(Consider also getting a new diaphragm, fitting it, and carrying the pump as a spare - your friendly AA man won't have one in his van.......)

If you are satisfied that the fuel pump is in the first flush of youth, then another possible source of fuel starvation, is the short flexible pipe from the tank to the metal pipe end on the floorpan, imploding.  If it is a replacement item for the Cavis piping, it may be rubber and have gone soft, or fuel has caused the walls to breakdown.  Squeezing it with your fingers should show if it is soft - it should not be.  Also check that there are no splits anywhere that could suck in air, although you would tend to smell fuel when the car was stationary.  The posts so far are sound advice if there is a risk of sediment etc. in the fuel tank.

Good luck - Roddy

 

I suspect the problem is more fundamental than the choke sticking on but it's worth noting that just because the warning light goes out does not necessarily mean the choke has fully disengaged. It's dead easy to check a] release the choke b] stick your head under the bonnet and check the choke cable is slack and then see if you can push the choke mechanism off a little bit further with your finger.
On my car attending to this made quite a big improvement to the way it ran.

My first port of call would be the fuel pump (checking flow and pressure) particularly looking at the one way  valves inside the pump. Alternatively fit an electric pump inline and see what effect that has.
Also have a look at the carb jets. On my replica C type with triple Webers, I filled it up with high octane Tamoil fuel last April, drove it around and then left it over the very hot summer in Italy. Tried to start it in November and it ran very roughly. All the jets were gummy and on 2 carbs the float chamber valve 'slug' was stuck closed with gummy deposits.
Chris

After checking for problems with the fuel supply/fuel pump, if the problem manifests itself particularly on a slope, it is likely that there is a problem with one (or both) needle valve and the correct movement of the carb float(s). Good luck, Andrea

Thanks gents for all your advice.

Not being of the mechanical orientation, I will get my friendly mechanic to assist me in checking out all these points and hopefully we shall suss out the fault by process of elimination.

Where's the best source for Fulvia fuel pumps? Do all Fulvias of varying engine size use the same pumps? Can someone please advise, thanks.

Hello Paul

Fuel pumps for a Fulvia are all the same, irrespective of model. Omicron should be able to supply one off the shelf.  Obviously Italy is another source, and they appear on eBay occasionally.  This website :- http://www.ricambirossocorsa.it/en/160-carburetors-lancia-fulvia-by-ricambirossocorsa?&p=2   in addition to listing a complete pump, also list an overhaul kit which appears to comprise diaphragm and flow valves, etc.

One other point that I did not cover in my earlier post, which can occasionally happen is if there is a lot of gunge in the fuel tank, be it sediment or water or flakes of rust.  The pick-up pipe in the tank is surrounded by a mesh filter which is located on the inside of the large brass drain plug in the centre bottom of the tank.  Hex key is the same size as the sump and gearbox drain plugs.  The mesh could become partially blocked and restrict the full flow of petrol.  This is really a 'last gasp' area to consider if all else has failed to sort out the problem, which I still think is fuel starvation.  The mechanical pump only delivers fuel at about 2 - 3 psi. so that is not a great pressure to overcome any restriction in the supply side.

Regards - Roddy 

Thanks Roddy,

Already ordered new fuel pump and Malpassi Filter King to go with other service items previously mentioned. We'll get to the bottom of the problem one way or another.

Cheers,

Paul

The symptoms are very similar to the problems I had with my Beta which I bought after a several year lay up. That was dirt in the carb. It was eventually cured by dismantling the carb and blowing everything through with an airline.

Covered at length in the carb section of the Betaboyz Forum.

Paul,
I'm mindful that you said you haven't got a lot of experience with mechanics
Cleaning and/or rebuilding carbs is a labour intensive process and can be expensive if handed over to a mechanic. Carbs can look complex and daunting if you've never stripped them before but are in fact relatively straightforward and enjoyable to work on. If you want to eliminate the carbs as a source of the problem ideally they should be removed, stripped and the bodies ultrasonically cleaned to ensure all the various airways and passages are cleared.

Just had car returned after 5 weeks being 'refettled. It's now running like a dream, took it for a 40 mile spin over the tops, fast roads, town & motorway where it behaved impeccably.
It's had the following completed to sort out the fuel starvation issue-
1) New Fuel Pump.
2) New Fuel Filter.
3) Carbs fully serviced and re-set up.
4) Fuel tank removed, sediment, rust & other crap removed (quite an eye opener), tank power washed, painted, re sealed and fitted.
5) Rolling Road/Dyno tune set up- now pumps out 111bhp at engine & 89bhp at wheels.
6) New NGK Plugs, Mahle Oil Filter, Mobil 1 synthetic oil, Framm OEM air filter.
7) New V belt.
8) Timing chain & other ancillaries checked.

Additionally it has had new front shockers fitted, o/s front CV joint, F& R seat belts fitted and o/s OEM door mirror (no real use but looks good).

It's now bellissimo! '

Sorry,

I mean't to add some more photos.

Very pretty much like mine but I do not have a black bonnet.    I would be interested to know what jets you have fitted.    I uprated my slow running jets to 55 a while back and am about to try some 60s.   I was on the motorway yesterday and felt it was lacking a bit at tht top end so am wondering about bigger mains as well = apparently modern petrol is more viscous than 70s fuel and needs bigger jets (and no, it is not fuel starvation, aready fettled that with electric pump and hi flow filter).

I now run standard 42 solexs on standard jetting on my 1600 Sport. I had an odd hesitation sensation every time I wanted to accelerate from a cruising rpm of 4000ish. The car would hesitate for less than a second then had good acceleration afterwards. Tried all sorts to cure and resigned to live with it thinking maybe the Holbay tuned head and cams were to blame (timing spot on). Then late last year I splashed out on an Omicron Group 4 exhaust for the HF which freed up an Evolution Group 4 manifold which I retro fitted to the sport as the car had an exotic long header designed one off exhaust system. This had been designed by a previous owner to lift the max torque to motorway overtaking equivalent rpm. the only problem with this exhaust was it had to go under the subframe not through it. At least once a year it took a bash from uneven roads. Anyway the long and short of it is that the hesitation has gone!! Suspect the exhaust is so efficient a scavenging  the when the engine tried to accelerate the mix was momentarily too weak.

BTW I cant see how changing slow running jets can overcome poor performance at beyond slow running conditions.

BTW2 Anyone want a crazy Fulvia ss big bore manifold free to collect?

Manifold sounds of interest, is it damaged but repairable?

Actually undamaged after the last repair!! (Now with skid plates...)

They are not actually slow running jets but intermediate jets.  Slow running mixture is adjusted by the 4 slow running screws.  The 55s certainly made a difference.  The 60s have just arrived today - watch this space!

Undertook a 300 mile round trip last weekend through the Lakes and back with Claire and the boys. Car ran absolutely faultlessly for first 230 miles then it lost power whilst in top gear on the A590 Cartmel by pass.
I pulled over and left it for a few minutes, restarted and it ran well for another 10 miles or so. This repeated five times until I arrived home. I have taken it out again since on a 20 mile spin and it was okay, nevertheless Claire's lost confidence and it's back in the garage for further investigation/set up- Hopefully it will be fully sorted this time!

Sounds like more dirt in the carbs. These faults are intermittent because the dirt gets in the jet channels, dislodges, but then gets sucked back in again. By dirt I mean something smaller than a grain of sand! Injection systems just blow crap like this straight through.

As above this was pretty much the story with my Beta which had not had a good run for many years before I bought it. The only 100% cure is a full strip down and into one of those ultrasonic cleaners.

On the other hand my car was eventually cured without this by regular filter changes and doses of Redex.

Paul

Check your fuel filters as they may be blocking from crap in the tank. Happend to Brian Mills and his new acquistion until he had got through a few filters....always the same when cars have not been used regularly condesation causes the tank to gently rust from the top down and generates a sandy dust confused with poor petrol but its rust....

Amend this as just seen your other tank refurb post, but still worth checking

My 1300 now hesitates momentarily on hard acceleration then accelerates strongly. This is since I've run it on trumpets with filter socks. Never occurred with the original filter set up. Must be a similar thing - momentarily weak.

I wonder if Paul you have a condenser problem. I am reminded of our first rally in our restored 1600 Sport which was going well until it lost all power going through a Belgium Forest. I changed the distributor capacitor for a new one I was carrying, and the car started and never produced the same problem since. I have however reinstated the Luminition ignition system that came with car after returning to the UK, so have no way of know if it would happen again but 1000km it was fine. Epilogue - tested the old capacitor when I returned home and it had not failed (fully).....

Tim/Neil,

Thanks for your advice, I will pass on all info to my mechanical friend who hopefully will quickly establish & resolve the issue.

Cheers,

Paul

Sounds like an electrical problem to me, but hey what do I know  ;) keep us posted Paul

only way I got over the fuel problem was to fit a filter King unit, the amount of crud that it stopped getting to the carbs had to be seen to believed :o

Brian
8227 8)

Roger,

Your'e not the first one to suggest it may be electrically related.

Brian,

I had a Malpassi filter King fitted a couple of weeks back at the same time as the new pump.

Hoping to know more about the problem tomorrow. Will keep all posted of developments.

Cheers,

Paul.

Ah! not that then :(

Brian
8227 8)

Hello Paul

After all the work you have done replacing/checking the fuel delivery side, perhaps the problem could be ignition?  Was the engine pulling hard at higher revs when power dropped?  If so, could be the coil is failing.  Both the condenser (as Tim suggests) and coil are not very expensive items to replace, and with no knowledge of their prior history, perhaps worth a try. You are just having teething problems, as with any 'new' car.  Keep persevering, and confidence will return.

Regards - Roddy 

Roddy,

The condenser and points were exchanged during the service so it could be the coil on the way out, but as you say no matter what it is, it will get resolved one way or another and will be back on form before the GNW.

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul, re points and condenser were changed, has the condenser been replaced with 1600 one ,as the 1300 one is different, they have different Micro farads value, and if not right can cause the points to burn and become pitted,and can cause problems. Just a thought Cheers Roger

Thanks Roger, message passed on just in case.
Don't want to leave any stone unturned cos it needs to be right when it comes back this time.

Hi Paul , I've been following your thread with interest. I am in Ormskirk, not that far away from you, and have been looking for someone/somewhere in this area to do mechanical work on my Series 2 Coupe. Does the friend that you refer to have a business and does he work on other people's cars?
Cheers, Norm

Hi Norman,

My friend does have a garage business, but he generally specialises in modern's and mainly German modern's at that, however he has many friends and contacts, one business in particular specialises in older vehicles setting up carbs/ tuning/ servicing/ rolling road testing and they love tinkering with these cars to make them right. This garage set my Fulvia up so much so differently from how it ran previously, it was like a new car until this latest hiccup which they have assured me through my friend that they will resolve one way or another.

I deal directly with my friend who invoiced me for all the work carried out by his 'sub contractor', but am sure (they are based in Westhoughton) they would be able to look at your car- whether you get mates rates or not I don't know. What I can do is ask my friend to do with your car what he did with mine i.e. drop it off with him and he will organise the work through his friend.

Please see dyno graph below for details of the garage that actually undertook the work & currently have my car.

Cheers,

Paul

Hello Paul.  I know I have mentioned it before, but loosing power under load IS often fuel starvation.  OR can be electrical as this thread is exploring.  However, if the flexible fuel lines are rubber, and not the original Cavis type, it could be the the inner walls are collapsing slightly if the rubber has gone soft, and causing temporary partial blockage when the pump is sucking at its hardest.  The external appearance of the fuel line may look normal, but if compressing easily between fingers, is likely to be at fault.  Remember the short flexible pipe from the tank to the metal pipe on the floor-pan has fuel in it all the time, and I am not sure how modern fuels and rubber react over a length of time.  The factory idea of having tensioning springs to hold the lines on to unions, instead of Jubilee type clips, has the benefit as the plastic pipe heats up and gaps may open, the clip compresses and grips it all in tighter.

Regards - Roddy

Thanks Paul.  I'm concentrating on bodywork and trim at the moment but will contact you again later in the year for an introduction when I get back to the mechanicals.  Cheers, Norm

Hi Paul,
I agree with Roddy that it sounds like a classic fuel starvation problem of collapsed hoses under high demand, or possibly a non vented fuel cap causing a vacuum in the tank. However the length of time before it happens also suggests a coil breakdown when hot and then ok again once cooled. A common problem we have, along with all the latest reproduction ignition components being of dubious quality/origin, are rotor arms that have a riveted brass segment. When hot, the rivet short circuits to the distributor shaft, causing a loss of spark. They cool down and all is well for a while. Try and ensure anything you fit is as good a quality as you can get, or OE equipment if possible but obviously difficult these days.
John

Car has been returned, it seems to run fine again- needs a long run to confirm.

More debris was found in the fuel lines, and although the Malpassi fuel filter was added to supplement the small original, the latter has been replaced with a larger version so now running two. The fuel lines were checked over and according to the mechanic are fine and relatively new. The whole system was flushed again, carbs were adjusted and ignition set up differently. Full electric system was tested as was fuel pressure and found to be spot on. Car was  put on rolling road again and set up.

Told to keep fuel level topped up above half so just filled up with Shell V-Power and a capful of additive and now looking forward to the weekend.

There's a certain type of Fulvia that doesn't need lead replacement but I can't remember if it's the 1600's or Series 1? I'm sure there's one that has hardened valve seats already fitted?

1600s do not need lead replacement (Omicron).   I wonder if the quality of the fuel is an issue though.  Obviously they need 96+octane but is Tesco's 99 octane better or worse than Esso's 97?    I am told that branded diesel fuel is markedly superior to supermarket fuel...

Incidentally, here is the power curve according to Lancia.

Incidentally, I have incresed my intermediate jets to 60 with a considerable improvement.  The original is 50 with which I had a huge hole between 1000 and 2500 rpm.  Going up to 55s partially filled it but it is much better with the 60s (available from Italy via EBay)  I still wonder now about increasing the main jets...  Be interested to hear how you got on at the weekend.

Hi David,

Took car out over the tops, around town, M-way blast and no concerns, power appears fine across the board. The only issue is me- the driver, using a RHD automatic diesel BMW for 800 miles a week then getting into a LHD Fulvia takes a bit of getting used too- I tend to rev it too much and the gearbox is not the easiest at first, especially with the boys in the back where I pull the seat slightly too far forward  so I am not at my most comfortable- Just excuses really!

Cheers,

Paul

You cannot rev. a 1600 Sport too much!  Take it up to 6000+ in the intermediate gears and enjoy the thrill!