Lancia Motor Club

I'm about to embark on the overhaul/rebuild of the front suspension of my 1937 Aprilia (which doesn't have a reservoir-feed to each unit. They are self-contained).

A couple of questions.

1. Does the club have the correct tools to loan/hire? Or is there someone on the forum who has them?
2. Assuming there are parts within the pillars that are knackered (I'm expecting that to be the case, as there's quite a lot of play on one side), where should I go for parts?

There's great documentation of the rebuild on Noel's blog http://narrywoolan.com.au/lancia-aprilia-1070/front-suspension.html (http://narrywoolan.com.au/lancia-aprilia-1070/front-suspension.html), which will be a big help. Noel made his own tools... and had to have parts machined.

check this website out
http://www.oldlanciaspares.com/aprilia/telaio.php
Clarkey

Thanks. I should have thought to look at Cav. Surprisingly good range of parts.

Firstly William, what are the correct tools? I have put a list of tools the club has to loan out in the library. If there is any you want checked out please let me know. Having said that, the only tools listed appear to be for the later Aurelia/Appia. Otherwise have you contacted Ben Courage?

Don't forget there are two different versions of the front suspension for 1st series, they changed towards the end of 1937 at construction no. 3001. The later type is bigger in all dimensions so the tools are not interchangeable. The parts listed on the Cavalitto website are 2nd series but he might have some early parts.

I made my tools on a small 9" Hercus lathe so any competent machinist should be able to turn them up easily. I don't have any drawings of them but if you can establish your suspension is the same as mine I can measure the tools and do a bit of a drawing. I don't know what the factory tools look like but the photo shows what I made. The tool with brass inserts is to undo the bottom plug and the other two fit the internal sleves in the damping section.
Noel

My car is 1427, so certainly the earlier type. However, when I got the car the front suspension was incomplete, so I managed to get hold of another by buying a sad shell of an Ardennes with James Parry - who kept the shell, which was unmolested (straight) though very sad and incomplete. I got the front axle and a few other bits. It is the 'French' unit that I'm planning to rebuild, though parts from the one on the car could be used, if (and I haven't yet measured / compared the two) they are the same type. It looks like I need to do some measuring and photographing before I'm sure what tools are needed.

Thanks all for tips.

William

Now, beware, my car has a different axle (from a tourer I found in a scrap yard on the Weston to Bristol road in 1969) which appears to be an early 2nd type!   There were, I think, later modifications to the oil valving arrangements also.   You had better measure carefully to find out what you have got.
 

Yes, quite. My car should have the earliest type, but over the decades parts get swapped.

Measurement, dismantlement, more measurement. That's the programme!

If it's off an Ardennes then it should be the same as the early 1st series. The easiest way to tell is measure the second cover on the top sleeve, across the flats the early type is 41.1mm, the later is 48mm, The attached pics show the difference. I don't think many parts are interchangeable as the kingpins went from 32.55mm appropriate to 39.4mm od.

Have look at the one being restored here and see if it matches.
http://retro-meca.com/restaurations/Lancia%20ardennes/trains.htm

Post a few pics if you can. Have you asked James if he has the appropriate tools?
Noel

Thanks Noel, that's extremely helpful. I'm going to get the two units side by side and get measuring. Have mailed JP to ask about tools.

A slow project this one (6 years since I said I was going to rebuild the Aprilia S1 suspension, but in mitigation I have got a lot done on other cars in the meantime...).

I'm putting the S1 suspension units back together, having had tools make by a local engineering shop to enable the work.

I have hit a snag which is that the two springs nearest to the top of the pillar (for damper rebound?) are of different dimensions to each other. One is O/D 45mm, I/D 24mm, length 39mm: the other one is O/D 33mm, I/D 20.5mm, length 31mm.

That is a concern, but the more (literally) pressing problem is that tightening the cover over the spring puts sideways pressure on the inner damper rod, thus bending it enough that the smooth operation of the suspension, both in rotation and vertically, is affected.

This clearly can't be right. I tried both springs both way up - same result.

So a couple of questions for the experts here:
1. what are the correct dimensions for the springs (including diameter of the spring steel 'wire', ideally)?
2. does someone have a couple of spares, or know of a source of them?

Photo shows the spring in question.

Thanks in advance,
William

Looks very similar to mine - did it work properly before ?

I can measure some springs tomorrow

Thanks Simon,

It occurred to me that I could grind the springs to reduce their diameter (outer and/or inner), which would (if enough material was removed) solve the clearance problem; but why is it an issue? The springs being different to each other suggests someone might have bodged a repair previously, but in that case why not have two identical wrong ones?

Did it work before? I don't know, this front axle came off the remains of an Ardennes that James Parry and I bought - I needed the front axle as mine is weirdly modified (recently posted about here https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13070.0 (https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13070.0)) and he needed a shell.

Best, William

Another couple more questions for Simon (unless someone else gets to it first!).

Pictured below is the top bush (bronze?).

What is the correct order of the 4 parts shown? Is the order in the photo correct?

Should the 'cup' type washer be convex curved side up, as shown?

Finally, one of my top bushes is worn oval but only at one end. I'm am thinking that by inverting it and rotating through 90 degrees, it might work acceptably. Worth a try in your view? I am now able to take apart my clean suspension units with minimal bother. Is there a source of replacements, or (more likely) will I need to get a local shop to machine one.

Update after further inspection and thought just now.

I think it is logical if the washer is at the bottom where it locates on a lip.
The 'cup' thing sits on it (convex curve upwards?).
Then the bronze bush sits on them and the scalloped one at the top.

Sadly the bronze bush definitely needs replacing. The inner surface is scored as well as oval, and is probably the cause of the 'kingpin axis' play I could feel when I got the axle. The steel inner bush that mounts at the top of the inner king pin is not worn.

The measurements of the bronze bush:
 I/D  35mm
 O/D. 44.4mm
 Length 101.45mm

Can anyone (Simon) confirm these?

I'm heading into the garage later this afternoon so will check everything

I will try and answer your questions with a few photos .....

Measurements for the bronze bush are the same as mine, but springs are quite different - dimensions in photos. I have only one new one for each spring so I can't let them go, but I am happy to lend them for getting new ones made

I have shown the order of things in the photos as well, do you still have the felt seal (not shown on the TAV) ?

Thank you Simon,

So, inevitably your photos and measurements lead to more questions...

1. The felt oil seal(s); are there two? I think I can see one that sits below the washer that is shaped like a collar (grey-ish colour) and another below (when assebled) that is more like a washer shape and brown. Is that right?

Cavalito sells a part (photo below) that is the same shape as the first of these, but where the felt is contained in a metal carrier (doesn't state on their site if it is S1 or S2 though, I'll have to ask).

I remember reading somewhere online (I thought it was Noel's site but can't find the reference) about the use of some marine quality felt to replace the original type, which improved oil retention.

Mine had no felt seals at all. No wonder it was so thoroughly encrusted!

2. The top damper spring

The plot thickens here, as the smaller of the two spring I have has similar I/D and O/d to yours, but puts sideways pressure on the central rod when the cover is tightened, so perhaps something else is amiss, though I don't see what it could be. Any ideas?

Your drawing of the upper one that seems to be causing the problem is very useful and there are lots of people I've found online who can make them, but I guess the key missing measurement is what seems to be called load - I might call it deformability, i.e. how much will it compress when subject to a specific load.

An update on 'the other' Aprilia S1 front suspension thread here.

I managed to get hold of a new old stock upper bronze bush (previous post) from a seller in Italy for a very sensible 30 Euros. Arrived this week and fits perfectly.

The issue of the top rebound spring putting sideways pressure on the damper rod and causing binding in the vertical movement of the unit is still troubling and unsolved.

The photo below shows:
1. Damper rod - 12mm O/D
2. Top guide (lower and middle rebound springs are above and below this) - 12.85mm I/D
3. The Rod loose in the guide
4. The final photo is of a part I found online which seems to be the same as mine except for the addition of a brass bush which would presumably have a 12mm I/D and so properly locate the rod. This seems like a better solution or upgrade.

Can anyone here shed any light on whether my guides are missing the bushes, whether they were added later in production or are a later owner's mod.?

Thanks, William

While waiting for a second set of lower thrust bearings from Cavalitto (apparently the unit I'm rebuilding is what Enrico at Cavalitto calls 'First, First type' and has a smaller Augusta-sized bottom thrust bearing, not the normal 68mm O/D S1 Aprilia type. Lesson to remember to never assume, always send dimensions...) I have been sorting out the front axle brakes, bearings etc.

An 8-toothed castellated tool is needed to disassemble the bearings and after asking the usual suspects if I could borrow, rent, buy, have one made by them with no success, I have made one myself by simple but - though I modestly say so myself - ingenious modification of an immersion heater spanner.

I happened on this idea searching on eBay for large spanners that could possibly be modified, and for £13.52 bought a solid cast one that I then ground down with an angle grinder. A satisfying hours work.

Nice!