Lancia Motor Club

Just started on my winter project.  The previous owner of my S2 had rather clumsily fitted a tripmaster to the dashboard.  After removal it left holes and some separation of the plywood layers underneath.  After researching earlier forum posts I've acquired a sheet of iron-on mahogany veneer (from Veneers Online) and a surgical scalpel and blades.  For just over £16 the veneer sheet is big enough to do 4 dashboards with a piece left over for me to practice with!

******** Amendment added in March 2021.  After five years the veneer on my dash has lifted (bubbled) a few millimetres in a couple of places.  In retrospect I don’t think the adhesive that is on the back of the iron-on veneer is entirely suitable for long term application and associated temperature variations.  If I were doing the job again I’d use plain veneer (without the self-adhesive backing) and  apply an appropriate glue and then clamp the dashboard while the glue is drying. Many apologies to anybody who has followed my advice (which was based on information I took in good faith from somebody else's blog), and has encountered similar issues.**********

Nice, are you going to iron on top of existing , or remove the original ?

I suspect it depends on the thickness of the new veneer ??

If you run into problems, I am fairly sure I  have got a pretty good one available in Sunningdale.
Good luck with the restoration.
Regards
Chris

If you’ve got ply layer separation, I’d be tempted to get some wood glue and soak as much of the loose bits with glue, wrap the dash in plastic bags/greaseproof paper, then press it for a few days under books or other such weighty stuff. Maybe use some cut-down dowelling to fill the drilled holes rather than wood filler. Sand down the dash edges that are visible through the layers of ply i.e: on the main cut out, 2 large dials, 3 mini gauge holes an the warning strip slot before you apply the veneer. I wouldn’t use any paper courser than 150 grade. And after you’ve ironed on the veneer, keep changing the scalpel blades after cutting say one edge”s worth; it might seem wasteful but the new veneer is a lot tougher than you might think and the blades will dull easily. Finish off the edge of the veneer with glass paper.

Thank you gents.

Simon - I plan to lightly sand the existing veneer and apply the new directly on top.  With the adhesive backing it's about 1mm thick.  The adhesive is ridged so after heating/melting I'd expect the incremental dashboard thickness to be only about 0.6mm.

******* Amendment added in March 2021: See comment in opening paragraph about plain versus iron-on veneer***********

Chris - thanks for the offer.  Good to know I have a Plan B if (when?) I screw it up!

Stephen - thanks for the tips.  I've fixed some of the gaps using pieces that fell away when I removed the dash from the car. See pics below.  
I'll see if the dowel suggestion will work for the surface holes but am wary of any further drilling in case I damage the plywood underneath.  I may just use wood filler, but do it in 3 or 4 layers with a couple of days to dry between each.  I think that would protect against shrinkage and give me a smooth surface for the new veneer.  I have a question about cutting out the apertures.  One approach is to pierce through from above and, with the knife held perpendicular to the surface, try to follow the shape of the cutout underneath.  An alternative would be to cut out the shape from underneath leaving a small overlap all round.  Then trim the surplus from above, or sand it away.  Any thoughts?

This is the delamination that I was fixing in the last couple of pictures.

This reminds me of when years ago, I bought some veneer from an eastend warehouse full of the stuff on more than one floor. I should have taken a camera. 

The approach from the front or the back is an interesting question. Whichever you choose don't try to cut to the final line straight off. start with a rough hole well inside your intended end point and work your way to the edge gradually. The finer the final cut is the more likely the blade is to follow the perfect line. I think the danger with working from the front is a lack of support for the pressure of the knife whereas from the back there might be a danger of the edge splitting away along the grain. Perhaps doing the rough cuts from the back and then the last millimetre or two from the front would work best.

I've very little experience of veneer so this is 100pct "a question" rather than "a suggestion"...

Is there any merit in something like a hole saw or forstner bit or even a fret saw to clear the majority of the excess?

Any advice for what to cut on / into?   A bit of MDF or is a "cutting mat" worth finding?

I would think a hole saw would tear it as it is so thin.   A careful fretsaw with a fine tooth blade should be OK and then a very sharp knife - or perhaps a sanding cylinder in a Dremel?

Whenever I’ve done any dashes, I’ve always cut out the apertures with 25mm (1") of veneer remaining around the edges of each aperture just to make sure that the heat actually melted the glue to the aperture edges. Then I would cut from the rear until there’s about 2mm excess veneer left. Keep changing those blades! Then I hold the dash vertically, balance one end on my shoulder, carve off small slivers looking along the aperture until the veneer almost level with the ply, then use superfine sandpaper/Aluminium Oxide paper wrapped round some form of edge (file, small block of wood) to get it down level with the ply. If you’re going to use a saw it would ideally need to be very fine toothed (20tpi). Those pics you posted look like the ply is very ”dry”.

Thanks for all the tips so far.  I've got enough left-over veneer that I can practice sticking it down to see how good a bond I get, and can then practice cutting it.  After the practice sessions (and assuming I don't give up at that stage!) I intend to place the dashboard upside down on a cutting mat and cut the apertures from behind to within a few millimetres using a surgical scalpel and plenty of blades, then cut the excess from above by shaving it away, again with fresh blades.  I'll use fine sandpaper to finish off the edges.  I will report on progress.

I've cut two rough outlines and have placed them under some heavy books to uncurl ahead of ironing one of them in place. The lower one does fit. The picture makes it look too short!!

I tend to cut against something reasonably hard because it's important not to let the veneer distort downwards during the cut. A cutting mat is useful to have but in this case a piece of old plywood should work perfectly well.

Good point Frank.  There's probably enough give in a cutting mat to allow the veneer to pull away from the surface of the underlying plywood.  I'll use a wooden board instead.

I've now finished the repairs to the dashboard in readiness for applying the veneer.  I found Evostik interior wood adhesive to be effective for gluing small pieces of wood in place, and for re-attaching the front and rear laminate layers where they had come away in places. Any surplus was easily sanded off after it had dried. I found toothpicks and short lengths of thin card useful for getting the glue into gaps.  I used Ronseal wood filler in a light shade to fill the holes and chips in the dashboard and it has worked quite well.  I built it up in a few layers and let each layer dry thoroughly before applying the next.  Where the filled holes will show in the final dashboard the sanded colour is not that far off the colour of the original plywood base.

The two parts of this project that have been worrying me most have been (1) getting good adhesion with the adhesive that's on the iron-on veneer, and (2) getting a good edge to the cut-outs.  With that in mind I thought I'd practice first. I bought an off-cut of plywood for fifty pence and cut five holes in it with a hole-saw, then smoothed off the edges with sandpaper.  I attached an off-cut of the veneer using a sheet of tracing paper between the iron and the veneer.  With the iron set at "cotton" I moved it slowly over the paper a number of times, applying pressure, and gently lifting the edge to see if it seemed like it had stuck ok.  I then placed the board veneer-side down on a flat surface and weighed it down over night with some heavy books. In my next post I’ll report on my first attempts at cutting out apertures.

******* Amendment added in March 2021: See comment in opening paragraph about plain versus iron-on veneer***********

Here are my first attempts at cutting apertures.  I learned quite a lot!  Based on forum advice, and with the board on a flat surface, I cut the openings from the back, about 3 to 4mm smaller than the final apertures.  I then very carefully shaved away the remaining overlap using the technique described above by Stephen (D5177_55A). I also found, as Stephen suggested, that holding the board vertically and resting it on my knee allowed me to cut better, and I found that cutting towards me worked better than cutting away from me. Cutting the overlap away in two or three thin slivers worked better than trying to take all of it off in one cut. I then used fine 400 grit sandpaper to sand away any ridges or very small overlaps, and to get the right curve.  I found that wrapping the sandpaper around a dessert spoon gave a good curved shape that could be used to get a regular arc when sanding. So far so good. 

Brilliant and such great care in determining the best way to carry out the work. And lovely to see the best silver coming out for a truly useful purpose!!!!

                                  Andy

...... best stainless steel more like it!

Looking good. Never thought to use a spoon – just my finger – probably why it’s bent!

Yesterday afternoon I ironed the veneer onto the dashboard and left it overnight face-down under four piles of heavy books.  This morning, with the dashboard face down,  I trimmed around the edge using the plywood as a guide for the knife to follow, then lightly sanded it.  This outer edge is, of course, hidden by the top and bottom dash pieces when installed in the car.   I then cut out the rough apertures so that I have just a few millimetres to shave off.  That's my next job. Fingers crossed.

******* Amendment added in March 2021: See comment in opening paragraph about plain versus iron-on veneer***********

Looking good Norm. All those useful tips going in the memory bank for future recall. Well done.

I've made some progress on the dashboard restoration over the last couple of weeks.   I have cut out all of the apertures and sanded down the edges.  This was the job I feared most and I have to say I had my heart in my mouth most of the time waiting to make some error that could not be recovered.  The most important contributors to success proved to be: (1) the practice that I had undertaken with a plywood off-cut and some leftover pieces of veneer, (2) changing the scalpel blade frequently, (3) removing small slivers of veneer at a time rather than trying to cut away large pieces, and (4) cutting on the downstroke with the blade and not on the upstroke.

The first picture below, from my practice sessions, shows the splintering that can happen by trying to cut on the upstroke.  One thing to note is that the apertures do not have to be cut out precisely, as small overlaps and irregularities can be eliminated during the sanding stage.  I found the smaller openings to be much more difficult than the larger ones, so I started with the large openings first.  I found that the best approach was to cut to within 2 or 3mm of the edges from below with the dashboard veneer-side down on a firm surface.  Then I cut the surplus overlap away in small slivers at a time, with the final cuts holding the scalpel parallel to the bevelled edge of the plywood, being careful that the blade slid along the laminated edge of the plywood and not digging into it.  I used a couple of blades on each cutout.

Thankfully I found that the cut outs did not have to be completely regular, as the sanding stage removed irregularities and allowed smooth edges to be achieved.  I gently used 150 grit sandpaper wrapped around objects that closely matched the radius of the aperture in question, ranging from a pen for the narrow openings, through a couple of sizes of tablespoons, to a tin of baked-beans for the speedometer and rev counter openings. I then used 400 grit and 1500 grit for final smoothing.
 
One tricky area was glue from the veneer backing being exposed by the cutting and sanding.  The second picture below shows the back of the iron-on veneer.  You van see that the adhesive was rubber-like in texture.  I think If I ever undertook another project like this I might look for veneer with a different type of glue.  The third picture, from my practice sessions, shows what the glue looked like in places.  It would not always sand away readily so I sometimes had to resort to carefully scraping it away with a finger nail.

One other problem encountered during the cutting stage was that the veneer surface lifted slightly in three places - see the fourth picture.  When the cutting and sanding was all finished I reapplied the hot iron just to these three areas (protecting the surface of the veneer with a sheet of paper) and then left the dashboard under heavy books again for 48 hours.  That seemed to do the trick and allowed final varnishing to start.

I lightly sanded the surface and cut-outs with 1500 grit sandpaper, then wiped with a tack rag.  I applied the first coat of varnish very, very thinly, to avoid it wetting the veneer too much and causing buckling.  I adjusted my angle of view to see the light reflected on the varnish in order to see any areas of puddling, and brushed these out with a dryish brush, wiping the surplus off the brush each time. I left the first coat for 24 hours then lightly sanded with the 1500 paper and applied a second coat, then repeated this process 24 hours later.  The picture below shows the dashboard after these 3 coats.  I will probably apply a further 2.  The varnish is outdoor varnish which is spirit-based.  I had been advised not to use water-based.  So far so good.

Norman,
It's looking excellent, and your patience is an admirable example to all of us!
Splintering on the up cut, did you try taping the top side surface with masking tape? then cutting through this on the up cut, as that should have eliminated, or at least reduced the splintering.


Brian
8227 8)

Hi Norm

Second that, looks great and testament to your patience and practice.

On the number of layers of varnish, I seem to remember one of the wheeler dealer episodes where they sent a veneer off to a specialist and I think they mentioned up to 10 coats, may be wrong on this, but thought I would mention it. Think it was for a centre console on a Jag.

Peter

Brian - I thought of doing that but I decided to just cut on the down stroke, which turned out to be quite an effective approach.
Peter - I'm happy to carry on beyond 5 coats if necessary! My daily routine is now: shower, breakfast, sand dashboard, varnish it!!

If you hadn't already chosen iron on veneer I would have recommended cascamite which is like araldite but comes in powder form which you mix with water. It is used in boat building. I have used it for veneering a dashboard in the past and was very happy with the results.

Thanks Frank.  If (heaven forbid) I ever restore another dashboard I might try that approach.  My wife says I've been too fussy worrying about the glue as she doesn't think it's very noticeable, especially after the varnish has been applied.  She's probably right!

For anybody undertaking a dashboard restoration I've summarised the process below.  I suggest reading this summary, and taking a close look at the step-by-step pictures and descriptions in the blog above.

******** Amendment added in March 2021.  After five years the veneer on my dash has lifted (bubbled) a few millimetres in a couple of places.  In retrospect I don’t think the adhesive that is on the back of the iron-on veneer is entirely suitable for long term application and associated temperature variations.  If I were doing the job again I’d use plain veneer (without the self-adhesive backing) and  apply an appropriate glue and then clamp the dashboard while the glue is drying. **********

ASSEMBLE MATERIALS
- mahogany iron-on veneer, from veneers online.co.uk website (about £15 for a sheet big enough for 4 dashboards).
- large sheet of white paper (to protect veneer while ironing it on).
- wood glue, if needed for repair (small bottle of Evo Stick wood glue from B&Q).
- wood filler, if needed for repair (small tube of Ronseal Multipurpose Wood Filler, Light, Medium Oak, from B&Q).
- Swann Morton surgical scalpel (£3 on Amazon, and 100 blades (about £10 on Amazon) I used about 60 blades.
- plywood off-cut for practicing ironing and cutting techniques, and hole-saw (hole saw is only for cutting holes in the plywood to simulate dashboard openings).  
- sandpaper: 150 grit for sanding cut veneer edges.
- wet&dry paper (used dry): 400  and 1500  for final finishing of cut-outs, and 1500 for lightly sanding the varnished surface between coats.
- small blocks to wrap sandpaper around, for sanding straight edges.
- curved objects to wrap sandpaper around for sanding circular sections: I used a pen, a large tablespoon, and a baked beans can.
- tack rags for wiping dust off surface.
- exterior clear gloss varnish (not water based). I used Ronseal Outdoor Varnish - Gloss - about £7 for small tin from B&Q.  
- good quality 1” paint brush.
***SAFETY***
- be very careful with the scalpel blades as they are extremely sharp, and can cause serious injury.
- safety glasses are advised when using a scalpel as blades can snap under certain circumstances.
- with care, pliers can be used for inserting and removing the blades.  
- specialised equipment is available for inserting blades (about £10), and removing them (about £4).  
- see blog entries below for more details.
PREPARATION
- be careful handling the wooden dash panel - edges can be dry and fragile,  and the thin rear surface can chip away easily (pieces can be glued back on if they come away).
- fill any holes or imperfections - using wood filler, then sand.  Build up filler in small layers.
- repair any de-lamination with wood glue and clamp or place under heavy objects (large books are good) until set.
- cut piece of veneer using the dashboard as a pattern - about an inch over size.
PRACTICE
- use some of the leftover veneer pieces to practice on.  
- I bought a plywood off-cut for 50p from a local hardware store, and cut holes in it with a hole saw (the type used for cutting holes in doors for handles and locks) and sanded these smooth.
- practice ironing veneer to the plywood off-cut using a thin sheet of paper between iron and veneer - have iron set at “cotton” .
- practice cutting out the hole-saw apertures (see technique hints below).
ATTACH VENEER
******* Amendment added in March 2021: See comment in opening paragraph about plain versus iron-on veneer***********
- iron the veneer to the dashboard using a thin sheet of paper between iron and veneer - have iron set at “cotton”.
- move the iron slowly over surface but be careful not to burn veneer.
- put the dashboard under heavy weights (large books are good) for 48 hours.
- examine  edges to confirm that veneer has adhered properly.  
- any edges where veneer is not attached can be fixed by ironing the area again - then repeating the weighting process for 48 hours
TRIM PERIMETER
- place dashboard veneer-side down on a hard surface (piece of wood, or cutting mat) and holding scalpel vertically cut around perimeter, using edge of dashboard as a guide for the blade.
CUT OUT OPENINGS
- with dashboard veneer-side down, hold scalpel vertically and cut around openings, leaving just a few millimetres of overlapping veneer.  
- turn the dashboard over and start cutting the overlapping veneer from within the first opening.  
- start with one of the large circular openings as cutting gets more difficult  with the smaller radius curves.
- carve the excess off in narrow slivers.  Attempting to cut too wide a sliver can result in splintering.
- cut on the down stroke only.  Trying to cut on the up stroke can also cause splintering.
- change blade frequently - I got through about 60 blades in total.
- the practicing sessions (see above) will have shown the best way to hold the panel, and in which direction (clockwise or anti-clockwise) to cut.
- once the opening is near to the required finished size the scalpel can be held against the chamfered plywood edge to remove final small pieces of veneer.
- the cut-outs do not have to be completely regular, as the sanding stage will remove irregularities and allow a smooth edge to be achieved.
- fine sandpaper should then be used to achieve a smooth finish. I started with 150 grit and finished with 400.
- wrapping the sandpaper around an object that closely matches the radius being sanded is a good approach. I used a pen, a large tablespoon, and a baked beans can, depending on radius.
- use sandpaper wrapped around a flat block for sanding straight edges.
- may need to tidy up areas where the glue backing on the veneer is too visible, by carefully scraping it away with a finger nail.  As shown in the step-by-step photo sequence earlier in this blog.
EXAMINE FOR DETACHED VENEER
- after all cut-outs have been made, the dash should be examined to see if the cutting process has caused the veneer to lift away from the plywood backing in any places.  
- I found three areas where this happened, and I repeated the hot ironing process just on these areas and weighted the dash down again for 48 hours
VARNISH
- lightly sand the veneer surface and wipe with a tack-rag.
- apply first coat of varnish very, very thinly, to avoid that it wets the veneer too much and causes buckling.  
- adjust your angle of view to see light reflected on the varnish in order to see any areas of puddling of the varnish, and brush these out with a dryish brush.  
- leave for a day, then lightly sand with 1500 grit paper and apply second coat.
- repeat this process another 3 times giving 5 coats in total, or until you are happy with the finish.

Good luck!

Lovely job, Norm.   I have taken the liberty of posting this summary on the Technical Information thread.

As someone who can just about recognise which end of a screwdriver to use, just wanted to say thanks for sharing, it has been really enjoyable to watch and learn!
Richard

My surprise was the number of blades you got through.  Was that on a "better safe than sorry" basis?

Very much so David.  I was so concerned about the blades going blunt that I changed them frequently rather than waiting until I could detect any bluntness.  I used 2 to 3 for each opening, and got through quite a few practicing. They were relatively inexpensive so I played safe! I've kept the used blades so that they can be used for future less critical work.

Word of caution........in my career using endless scalpel blades, the biggest risk of injury was the fitting and removal of scalpel blades, hence a policy of single use (infection purposes) and the use of a special implement to hold blade whilst fitting or removing same!

They can inflict horrific injuries!

P

These are wise words Frank.  I was very, very careful handling the blades and I devised a rather Heath Robinson way of loading and unloading them, but was conscious all the time that a small slip could be very dangerous.  You mention an implement for fitting and removing.  Is such a device readily available, and if so, where from?   

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0082CW90M/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/254-6179918-5827767?ie=UTF8&qid=1484687715&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=scalpel+blade+remover&dpPl=1&dpID=310c-SlU8vL&ref=plSrch

This for removal and disposal, single use

P

Thanks for that.  Is there anything to aid insertion of the blade - I actually found that more difficult than removal?

Yes, let me find a link


Will copy when next on computer....phone not playing ball


P

I always use a pair of pliers ....... and a lot of care!!!!

It has all been very informative Norm and your preparation and practice has been well rewarded!!

https://www.pearsondental.com/catalog/product.asp?majcatid=41&catid=2391&subcatid=1129&pid=58670&dpt=0

http://www.sklarcorp.com/scalpels/blade-removers/blade-removal-forceps.html

The first allows the simultaneous raising of the rear locking element at the same time as sliding the blade off.


Safety first, second and third guys!

P

I've been using scalpels for years - back in pre-computer days they were essential for artwork in studios. Couple of things - you were quite right not to skimp on them as they are pretty cheap. The other thing if you are doing difficult cuts is to watch your eyes. Quite unbelievably, but true as I witnessed it myself, at college a friend was trying to cut a curve through thick material. The blade bent and snapped in half and pinged off the lens of his glasses. He then put another one in and it snapped and pinged off the other lens! He didn't wear glasses all the time so it was a lucky escape.

Indeed Stanley, when used beyond their design tolerances, like everything else they will fail too!

Safety goggles as well then guys if considering anything more robust than skin, human tissue, paper and thin cardboard!


P

Thank you Frank and Stanley for the additional safety comments. 
I've gone back in and incorporated a section on safety in my summary above.

Here's the finished article, after five coats of clear gloss varnish.
Thanks to all for the help and encouragement.
Cheers, Norm

Excellent bit of work Norm, now you've just got to bring the rest of the car up to the same standard!!!!


P

That's excellent, a very nice piece of work. I hope you don't suddenly remember you've bought a LHD.

******** Amendment added in March 2021.  After five years the veneer on my dash has lifted (bubbled) a few millimetres in a couple of places.  In retrospect I don’t think the adhesive that is on the back of the iron-on veneer is entirely suitable for long term application and associated temperature variations.  If I were doing the job again I’d use plain veneer (without the self-adhesive backing) and  apply an appropriate glue and then clamp the dashboard while the glue is drying.   Many apologies to anybody who has followed my advice (which was based on information I took in good faith from somebody else's blog), and has encountered similar issues. **********

I recently made a new dash fascia out of ply also as my original plastic one had been butchered and cracked to fit the radio.
It may offend the purists but I decided to try something different and covered with perforated vinyl, may yet add some chrome trim to the speedo/tach.
Getting the hole spacings correct was little tricky but Im happy enough with the outcome......not perfect but pleasant enough I think.

Looks very smart, and no reflections.
Brian
8227 8)

That looks really well done, how did you ensure the holes were round when cutting?

For the speedo/rev counter I used a dremel with a router attachment pining it through the mounting hole to the plywood to use like a compass.....they were the tricker ones but worked out fine. For the smaller gauges I bought a set of hole saws,I think 45mm or so for these. I also used those to cut the ends of the opening for the heater controls. And for the rheostat holes and end of warning light slot a flat headed drill bit 12mm form memory.
There was some marginal size differences maybe 2-3mm vs the original but not enough for it to look odd.