Lancia Motor Club

Hi

Having had a rather hectic time of things lately my Fulvia hasn't had an outing for many months. Getting it out yesterday for a summer evening blast I had a rather disconcerting experience where the brake pedal effectively just went to the floor offering minimal braking ability. So after 200 metres of slow driving down my road and pumping the pedal and drawing a negative on anything obvious like brake fluid loss I returned home.

My car is a 1.3 Series 2 Coupé and the last time I drove the car the brakes were fine. Clearly something has deteriorated over the last few months to cause this (master cylinder internals?) but I would be grateful at this stage for any advice. There is barely any braking capability and I can push the pedal all the way to the floor.
It's bad timing as whilst a competent home mechanic, time is my enemy over the next few months ... but I'd like to get the Fulvia out on the road before summer disappears!

Many thanks.

only two possibilities IMO:
1. Check thoroughly for any loss of brak fluid, it can be a pipe or hose, or the master losing fluid into the servo booster.
2. If there's no leaks the master cylinder is the main suspect....

This can happen to S2 Fulvia master cylinders after a lay off. I have found normal operation can be resumed after a lot off quick pumping. If not then the master cylinder need dismantaling cleaning and resealing. That assumes the bores are fine. There is a valve internally that some times gums open. Pumping can restore function.

Thank you both for the replies.

I did pump the pedal several times when I drove the car but will do it over a longer period tonight to see if there's any luck there. Fingers crossed!
If however this is not fruitful and the master cylinder does indeed need "dismantling, cleaning and resealing" then is this a relatively straightforward job that an amateur competent mechanic (me!) could reasonably do myself? Do I need any special tools and if something has deteriorated inside that needs replacing are these parts easy to get hold of (Omicron?). I've done lots of things on my Fulvia over the many years I've had it but never needed to do much brake work and certainly never anything on the master cylinder!

I had this a few years ago. The pedal went to the floor but because of the Duplex system it still had the small pistons working at the front. When the brake pedal was pressed there were air bubbles coming up in the M/C. I bought a seal kit from Omicron and this was fitted by a neighbour who   knows his way around cars. Still the same. Further inspection revealed tiny pitting in the master cylinder probably caused by water absorbed  into the fluid over many years. A new M/C with the new seal kit and all was well again.

you can rebuild the master cylinder if you are careful in photographing how the internals are organised. I suspect the tiny internal valve ( you can dismantle and clean but need small tools to deal with the circlip) may be not be sealing. New rubbers anyway. The middle rubber seal is replaced with an o-ring in some kits which is not a problem. If you are nervous I have heard good things from members who have used a company called Past Parts
http://www.pastparts.co.uk/ especially if you need the bore sleeved. You can buy replacement cylinders at a cost........

Thanks for all the replies.
I've got a master cylinder seal kit on order and will have a go at this myself.
Hopefully this will be a case of a failed seal rather than a corrosion issue but we'll wait and see.

Have you got the red covered Fulvia workshop manual? There's a cutaway of the master cylinder in there if you lose track of the seal order. Think I've seen them on Ebay or pretty sure Omicron will have them.

Thanks Stanley; that's a sound tip. I do have a copy of the manual so will dig it out and absorb carefully before I let myself loose. I quite like some hands-on mechanical work and fingers crossed I can get things up and running again (or rather stopping!) in short order.

When reassembling the master cylinder it is critically important that the screws in the reservoir are tightened while the pistons are pushed forward to prevent crashing and damaging the internals. Andrea 

Lots of good advice here.
I had a similar experience a long time ago when the brake pedal just went straight to the floor when getting into the car. I'd been going around the track just the day before....
Anyhow, it sounds to me most likely to be the m/c. When you re-seal it, bleeding it can be a little fiddly. There are lots of tips on how to do it, and worth looking them out. 

But the best way is to get one of these  http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/tools/car-service-tools/brake-service-tools/brake-bleeders/?SEAVS020&0&    I have saved so much time...!

Managed to make fair progress on the master cylinder this weekend.
The large nut at the end of the MC was a swine so after struggling with an adjustable wrench I ended up splashing out on a proper 32mm socket, and I won't say this that often, Halfords came to the rescue with some 'shock and unlock' spray which despite my dubiousness actually seemed to have a positive action.

Internals of the MC look fine; there was a lot of gunge in the end that goes into the servo but I've diligently cleaned everything so in the main all good.

I have managed to damage one of the circlips though. On one piston the circlip came of easily; on the other it eventually did but the tip has fractured. I've measured the shaft at 5.9mm but does anyone know the size I should try and seek for a replacement i.e. I assume a circlip is measured on the basis of the groove it will clamp into. I've found the following on ebay ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M5-5MM-EXT-EXTERNAL-CIRCLIP-PACK-OF-10-MODEL-ENGINEER-/112454907361?hash=item1a2ed5b5e1:g:qU4AAOSwB09YMZ8y (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M5-5MM-EXT-EXTERNAL-CIRCLIP-PACK-OF-10-MODEL-ENGINEER-/112454907361?hash=item1a2ed5b5e1:g:qU4AAOSwB09YMZ8y)  that look similar but is 5mm too small?!

I also have a bit of a 'mystery' with regard to the seals which I'd be grateful for advice/clarification on please! So in the attached picture of my MC components, seal 'A' was not originally present on my MC but was included in the replacement seal pack I received; this is the only place I can see it would go though! Conversely seal 'B' was present on my MC when I removed it from the car but was not included in the replacement seal pack.  ???
Having replaced the four seals on the pistons I've now also got a seal 'C' left over  ???
I could put all this down to an error with whoever packed the seals but since my MC definitely didn't have 'A' I'd like to check! I've had my car for around 25 years and no work has ever been done on the MC!

On the subject of checking could I just double check a couple of other things please?! For seal 'D' I gently prised this up and slipped it off the piston shaft. On putting the replacement on I then started doubting myself on the orientation i.e. did it flip over when I took it off. So long story short should the open cup part of the seal face inwards (like the seal at the end of the piston)? And then in a similar vein part 'E' definitely goes on that way round right?!  ::)

Sorry for all the questions...  :-[

...which is why I now take photos before dismantling anything but, sorry, did not do so when I dismantled my MS many years ago.    You may find something via Mr Google though.   If all else fails, Omicron will be able to tell you.
Can you not measure the diameter of the groove?  If the shaft is 5.9mm you may find the groove is 5mm.   If the groove is 5.9mm then you will need a 6mm clip.

Like this for instance

or this

Or even this one - which I had forgotten!

For what it's worth I have some scribbled notes in my manual from a conversation with Omicron a few years back. The cup washers (parts 31 and 12 in the workshop manual) should face each other with the 'open' side facing each other. They also said that sometimes the cup washer (part 12 again) is sometimes replaced with a solid rubber washer. This might account for the extra washer you have.

As far as brake bleeding is concerned the successful technique so far for me (with an assistant) is to jack the back axle up using the plate in the centre to open the compensation valve. Then front uppers first, then front lowers, then rears. It's always worked when done in that order.

Hi David and Stanley - thank you both; very helpful.
It all seemed relatively straightforward at the time and I did take copious pictures but with the washers/seals when they're in situ it's not easy to see orientation and then you take them off and after the fact think "if only...".  :-\
The MC diagram below indicates that the washers circled red should be in the same orientation so unless anyone says differently I'll go with that.
The washer circled blue in the diagram was very much a solid washer in my MC so that may account for the washer I have left over - thank you Stanley. Interesting though this change in design.

I still can't find diagrams or information that confirm the seal set-up for MC-to-servo. As my posting said, I only had one washer (not in the refurb pack) and was absent the larger washer (present in the refurb pack). Is this another case of a particular batch design favouring one over the other (although my MC clearly has recesses for both). Mmm.

After dismantling, cleaning and replacing the seals on my master cylinder I put it back on the Fulvia today. With an Eezibleed system I then bled the brakes. To my dismay the pedal still went to the floor as it did before the rebuild with the now familiar 'sigh' of air.  :(
Looks like I'll need to hunt down a new master cylinder...

If there were no signs of scoring in the bores and you have assembled the piston "flap valves" correctly then it must be air in the system somewhere???

You can buy 21mm fulvia re-manufactured (ie pattern part) mastercylinder bodies but not cheap.... It may be worth just doing the rebuild again or taking it to "Past Parts" for them to rebuild?

Thanks.
The old seals actually looked all fine but were all replaced with a seal kit from Omicron. I carefully inspected the MC when I dismantled it and it looks smooth and unscored / unpitted. I'm still getting exactly the same symptoms I had before the refurb though ... a sigh of air and the brake pedal easily being pushed to the floor.
I think my only option is really, as you've suggested, to send it to a specialist.
I came across 'J & L Spares' but if you're recommending 'Past Parts' that's good enough for me.

Did you follow the strange bleeding sequence?

Past Parts are good!!!!

                  Andy

Good question Stanley and I believe so.
Took the rear wheels off for better access but had the axle on stands then did front RHS top; LHS top; RHS bottom; LHS bottom. Followed by rear RHS; LHS. Eazibleed seemed to be pushing fluid through okay as allowed fluid to run free from each nipple but after this sequence still a pedal to the floor situation.  :(

Thanks for the help and advice from everyone. Nine times out of ten I can fix something myself but I'll give PastParts a call on Monday for this situation.

Have you got fluid running under gravity bleeding? It is common for Fulvias to be a pig to bleed. If you have fluid coming through under gravity can you get an assistant to press the pedal down and hold while you close the bleed nipple....and repeat after releasing the pedal and you do you see more fluid being pumped. The sigh of air must be coming from the servo on the back of the m/c?

Hi Tim - thanks; appreciate the follow up.
Yes I've put my head in the foot well and when I press the pedal down the 'sigh' is emanating from what can only be the servo. With the brakes operating normally such maximum depression would never be realised and the sigh never noticeable; very noticeable now though!
Fluid seems to be coming through fine with the Eezibleed pressurising via the MC reservoir hooked up  to a tyre operating at the 20psi recommended. I must admit to not doing anything with the pedal during this procedure so I'll definitely take your advice.
Guess what I'm doing this afternoon ... assuming the weather holds. It's like Russian roulette with the downpours where I am right now!

Have drained and taken off the master cylinder again just for a triple check.
Rear plunger very difficult to get out though; this was an easy part of the refurb with only two simple seals so can't believe I've done something wrong here! But with it so difficult to move this does raise question marks for me.
To reassemble and try bleeding again I think will get me to the same situation I've just encountered so I'll definitely give PastParts that call tomorrow.

I abandoned Eezibleed in favour of the Sealy vacuum bleeding kit and find it greatly superior and much less messy too!   Bleeds my Fulvia very easily.   It is only £36 from Eurocarparts at the moment and worth every penny.

assuming that the master cylinder has been correctly reassembled, slacken (NOT to be undone) the front union nut at the master cylinder, place a large rag under it, pump the pedal slowly 2-3 times to push fluid out, retighten the nut, and repeat the operation with the rear union nut. Then go on to bleed the brakes as per Lancia advice. If your car has a remote servo (GTE, rallye S), repeat the bleeding as above at the servo cylinder with the engine running. Good luck,
Andrea

Somebody tell me if I'm talking rubbush but I also think you have to wet the inside of the M/C with brake fluid before you reinsert the refurbished piston otherwise the new seals can tear.

I usually apply the special brake grease but if this is not available, brake fluid should be OK, Andrea

The bores should always be lubricated for re-assembly. I have always simply used brake fluid. I hope all the work goes well and a successful result!!

                            Andy

Past Parts have looked at my MC and after re-sleeving and not getting the MC working have come to the conclusion that what they're calling the 'secondary piston' is damaged.

Not sure how this could have happened as I was very careful the whole way along. Perhaps the vigorous brake pumping...? Anyway that's all a bit moot since I'm now faced with the pretty rubbish situation that unless I can source said piston I'll have to not only purchase a new/refurbed MC but also recompense Past Parts for their efforts. :-(

Before I go this rather frustrating (and expensive!) route does  anyone happen to have a Fulvia's MC internals going spare they'd be willing to sell?!

I have just had the same problem with my master cylinder . The pedal went straight to the floor . I ordered seals from omicron , put it all back together an it's spot on ! Perfect brake pedal after bleeding , there was some light scoring on the bore of the mc and this does not seem to cause any problem . I spoke to omicron and they said they can re sleeve the mc . They have to see how much work there will need to be done to it before they will give me a price . The brakes are fine for now but this will probably have to be done sooner rather than later . Thanks . David .

Scott
Sent you a pm.

Tim

Quick question on this topic as the master cylinder is next on my list to do - is it as straightforward as unbolting everything to get it off the car? Had a look and it seems like it should be OK but want to be sure before I start. Having read through the thread I have decided to send mine to PastParts, they look to have done a great job on the rear calipers so I'm happy to use them again. No idea if there is anything wrong with my m/c but as the car has stood for nearly 30 years it seems a sensible precaution.

Also wondering about getting the servo refurbed at the same time (assuming this is possible) - any thoughts?

Yes, get the servo refurbished.  I had mine done a while ago and cannot now trace who did it but this website   http://www.jlspares.com/  looks familiar.  Note the thread on getting the length of the piston rod right!   Taking it off is easy.  Taking the master cylinder off is also easy in theory and you can leave it attached to the servo (I think) but undoing the unions can be a pig.   Have you had the front calipers done as well?  And replaced the hoses? (from Omicron).  Then you could change to Dot4 fluid.   And get yourself a vacuum bleed kit!

David

Do you mean change to Dot 5 silicone as all the system needs to be new and clean from old hydraulic fluid....

Thanks for the replies. I've had the rear calipers rebuilt by PastPart so far and they have said they can do the master cylinder and should be able to do the servo. Once I've had them done I'll get the front calipers rebuilt. I haven't got a big enough garage to get right round the car so currently sorting the rear then will get the car out to do the front.

Interesting thought about the fluid to use, I'm changing the flexible hoses but not planning to replace the metal pipes as they are still OK.

I have found it ok to flush the metal pipes and compensator through with silicon fluid as part of the bleeding process. I changed the Silicon fluid on my Sport after 11 years as the purple had started to fade. No water of nasty corrosion came out of any of the calipers.....