Augusta progress

[peteracs]

Hi Mike

I have no idea what current is taken with the starter, but maybe a D.C. to D.C. converter could be an answer?

Peter

[lancialulu]

When my Aprilia was converted by a PO from 6 to 12v the starter motor remained unchanged. When I queried this with the PO I was assured it was OK so long as the starter was not used continuously (ie the car would not start due to another fault) - it would eventually overheat. It never did. Maybe the inductance of the starter/solenoid limits the initial action of the bendix.... Is the Augusta bendix a weak point of the starter?

[Mikenoangelo]

Is the Augusta bendix a weak point of the starter?

No, as far as I know, not particularly - it's just a feeling that the engagement is rather fierce and a thought that this is hard on both Bendix and flywheel starter ring.

My son's 1927 Austin Seven was converted to 12V years ago and the starter seems to survive - we joke that we know when the engine has started when it slows down.

To ease the engagement would be ideal as we would then keep the benefit of the quicker turning of the starter under 12V.

Mike

[Kari]

If I remember right, the Aprilia has a different starter motor system, the dog is pulled mechanically into the ring gear, and then power is applied. Not so in the Augusta. There power is on by pressing the starter switch which causes the armature to turn immediately fast, thereby pushing the dog into the strong spring at the end of the armature shaft and the same time engaging the ring gear (Bendix Drive)
In the case of Mike's Augusta (and others), there would be about 10 volts at the starter motor whereas in a 6 volt system there would be about 4-5 Volts. Quite a difference which will increase wear on the dog, ring gear and the brushes.
In some Italian Augustas on the market I have seen converted starter motors, similar to those in the Aprilia. Once I had one of those on my bench, it does fit in the Augusta engine. But it was for a 6 Volt system, the advantage was saving the dog and ring gear from exessive wear. In such a system a resistor in series would make sense.
In the case of Mike's Augusta, it might reduce the amperage applied by using a cable of reduced section between the switch and the starter motor, perhaps worth to try, as the the starter motor has already a low resistance.

Karl

[JohnMillham]

This is the part that suffers!

[Kari]

And that!

[Mikenoangelo]

My ring gear is worn too! I think the bronze pinion might be a good idea as a sort of sacrificial item to save the ring gear. My pinion is steel.

Been out today swapping wheels around to see whether any more are distorted. Apparently not although I will get them dynamically balanced to reduce vibration. I find it strange that the back of the car seems more susceptible to vibration than the front as I've always found the opposite with other cars. Fortunately it now only become annoying at over 90kph which is not a problem as we are miles from any motorway.

Anyway can I just say thanks to all who have read and contributed to this thread. There is always an element of self publicising in forum posting although not in the same league here as on Twitface. I feel justified in describing what I'm up to in case at some point it helps someone else. I've certainly had a huge amount of generous help and advice from numerous Augusta fans and hope this can be seen as a means of thanking all concerned.

A muggy day today as we say in Yorkshire. I set out to take a nice scenic picture of Nidderdale but snow and mist caught me so here is the Augusta at the bottom of Nought Bank near Pateley Bridge. This was used as a trials hill in the 1920's (unsurfaced at the time) and you can just see it behind the trees snaking up the hillside.

Have a nice Christmas and all the best for 2021.

Mike

[Raahauge]

Regarding starter motors and 12 v.
I converted to 12 v but concluded (without any scientific appraisal) that the most current was probably on initial contact when the rotor was being accelerated from zero. As I have used my battery box for a heater the battery is now under the drivers seat so I used a quite a small cross section cable which is about a metre in length to feed the motor and induce some voltage drop.  I have not tried to measure the result, I think I would need rig up an oscilloscope.
The bendix is still in excellent condition though not much of a test as it has only been in use for about a year.
Thank you everyone who has made the effort to contribute, I will try and bring a bit more to the table in future.
Best wishes to you all for Christmas and especially for the coming year.
Mike

[Kari]

Regarding starter dogs and ring gears.

The Augusta left the factory equipped with an integral ring gear, not hardened, and a bronze dog. The starter dog was easy to replace and the ring gear lasted a fairly long time.

Decades ago, I have installed a steel dog (hardened), a Bosch part. However it did ruin the ring gear with time, the dog is still fine. Lesson learned.

Fortunately Cavalitto sells ring gears which can be shrunk onto a worn fly wheel. Then one has a hardened ring gear and a hardened steel dog. Should last me out.

Best wishes to all for a good New Year.

Karl

[DavidLaver]

Please keep posting.  I find it entertaining, an education, inspiration, and hope in time a useful reference.

[Mikenoangelo]

As we all know one thing leads to another!

One thing - an email from Karl told me of his experience with dynamic wheel balancing on his Augusta so that is my next move. I have tried all five good wheels on a front hub and all seemed well balanced in the radial sense and all five had the balance weights by the valve which Iies in the centre of the partial well of the Michelin wheel rim. Odd at first sight as I thought there would be more metal at that point, however I realised that the partial well brings the raised portion nearer to the wheel centre thus upsetting the balance. I also noticed that the factory installed rim weights are mostly near the valve to counteract the asymmetry.

Another thing - I began to wonder why the Augusta seems more prone to out of balance wheel vibration at the back rather than the front as I have found on all the other cars I have owned. Perhaps a combined effect of rather large fat and heavy tyres on wide wheels mounted on a relatively light axle on a lightish car. I’d already done the spring mountings, shackles etc, cleaned, greased and wrapped the springs which has perhaps modified the innate damping of leaf springs but this cannot be responsible as the vibration was unchanged afterward.

So the only issue left was the condition of the friction shock absorbers which are similar to  Andre Hartfords (Photo 142). They have a single moving arm made up of three leaves which join to discs sandwiching 6 wooden friction discs mounted on a chassis bracket, all clamped together by a bolt and spring which pre-sets the tension, unlike the Andre Hartford type where the clamping effect can be adjusted to suit the weight of car and for wear in the friction discs. A fabricated link connects the arm to the axle via Metalastic bushes.

It seemed unduly hard to move the arm of the shockabsorbers by hand, needing a force of about 48lbs/ft to start the lever moving although I have no idea what the correct setting should be. (Does anyone have a figure for this?) Once apart for a clean up, all the wooden discs looked heavily coated with what seemed to have started as grease but was now congealed and hard, looking almost glazed. Wire brushing and paraffin revealed a sound grained wooden surface.

The rubber bushes on the connecting links need replacing and both the surrounds for the upper bush and the links looked very battered, one arm having evidently been broken and welded together with a patch. (Photo 143) One of the connecting links is sound enough and looks original but the other is not very good. So more fettling awaits!

Making a replacement connecting link will be tricky so if anyone has a sound original  link they can spare I’d be glad to buy it. (Photo 144)

When it comes to re-fitting them to the car I will test the action of the friction by a simple technique I’ve used before with Hartfords. Jack the car up, supporting it beneath the chassis, jack the axle up and then set the tension of the clamping bolt on the discs so that the axle will only just drop as the supporting jack is lowered. This seems to work well for Hartfords and will give a guide as to whether the Augusta’s shocker setting is in the right zone, but what to do if it is not - I’ll wait and see.

Mike

[nevillesponge]

Well this might be the first time I can help rather than be helped! Mine have almost disintegrated due to wear  (bush failed - see pic) so I’ve recently had these made by a firm called lasermaster, in Cornwall. I don’t have the skills which you have, so I had the spacers made and new nylon bushes produced by RST plastics. All for under £50.
Hope this might help.
Regards
David

[nevillesponge]

Picture

[nevillesponge]

Original link

[Mikenoangelo]

Thanks  David

It's interesting to see that your original link is different to mine and a whole lot easier to make. I was thinking along those lines so it is good to see that Lancia obviously thought the same.

The saddle like brackets which clamp to the axle and carry the bushes for the lower end of the links of the rear shocker arms had been badly fettled, including cutting and rewelding the eye, presumably to remove and replace the metalastic style bush. One arm had also been reinforced and welded.  (Photo 145). One of the saddle brackets was distorted so the bush was way out of line. (Photo146). A little bit of vice and brute force straightened the saddle pressing so I can now machine off the damaged sleeves, leaving a true rim to the bracket so a new sleeve can be welded on. Anyway all can be sorted as long as my welder does not get locked down - he is an essential worker!

Mike