Augusta progress

[Kari]

I did scratch my head about those tags long time ago. One possible reason might be, to attach springs who will hold back the rear seat back. The seat back might be spring loaded to have access to the shelf behind it, just below the rear window. In my car, I have installed clips to hold in place the seat back. I don't want the toolbox coming forward at hard braking. (Augusta brakes are first class!)

I look forward to hear of any findings in regard of shaft balancing.

Karl

[Raahauge]

Just to add to the general information our flat rad car does not seem to have the tags you mention and the seat back is held in place by the same springs that assist the closing of the boot lid.

[Mikenoangelo]

I played around with bits of metal taped to the propshaft until it would roll uniformly on the two knife edges, eventually finding that a jubilee clip with the heavy bit diametrically opposed to the balance weights would work. It did not matter whether the shaft was rolling on the tube itself or on the bosses of the centralising spiders so clearly they are property aligned (photo 173). I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve removed and refitted the propshaft - suffice to say I am quite good at it!

On the road yesterday and there is a marked improvement with a reduced  vibration now coming in at about 3000 rpm rather than 2700. It’s odd that the added weight of the jubilee clip worked best when opposing the  weights fitted by the balancing company . They used their own kit to mount the shaft in the machine rather than the centralising spider so perhaps this was the problem. There is a further added balance weight at the axle end of the shaft so more jubilee clippery is planned.

For some reason the website will not accept photos returning an Error 403 access to the forum forbidden so no pics today.

Mike

[Mikenoangelo]

Re the small tag in the boot - I’m sure it is to take a spring to prevent the seat back from tipping forward as I found a mark on the back panel of the re-trimmed rear seat which was evidently made by the trimmer to indicate the position under the new covering of a hole in the wood frame for a fitting to take the other end of the spring. The hole is there and if a spring were fitted it would run exactly parallel to the boot lid spring. I looked at photos of several other Augustas which I considered when buying our car - all had the tags but none had the spring so perhaps it was just a pest!

Picture 172 showing the tag worked today - the software does not like apostrophes in file names.

Next question - were there originally any means of clipping the jack, wheel brace and starting handle in place in the boot or in the compartments behind the rear seat instead of  wrapping them in old blankets and chucking them in? I can find no unused holes or other fittings which is surprising when you think of the care that went into the design of the car to use every centimetre of space efficiently.

Mike

[Mikenoangelo]

I put a second Jubilee clip at the axle end of the propshaft counterbalancing the weight added when the shaft was balanced, just as I did at the front end - result vibration hardly changed. So then rather than taking the shaft off again to balance it on the knife edges I turned the clip around the shaft by180 degrees to increase rather than counteract the added weight and BINGO - it’s transformed, running happily up to 3500rpm with just a slight vibration when on a very light throttle. Quite probably only noticeable because I’m looking for it. Amazing what a couple of Jubilee clips can do!

What an annoying saga, especially as the shaft had already been professionally balanced. Quite what went wrong I don’t know, either the shaft was not properly centred in the balancing machine or a mix up happened as the balance plates were added. Perhaps the weights were put at the wrong ends of the shaft. I think I’ll leave the Jubilee clips in place rather than taking them off and getting it rebalanced with the possibility of further problems.

Having resolved the propshaft balance and improved the engine significantly by re-lining the damped engine mount springs the car now feels very usable - not a motorway cruiser but superb on winding roads and very nice to drive. Lots of work and learning Lancia was involved to get to this point though!

Mike

[peteracs]

Hi Mike

I think you are being kind to them. Personally I think I would want to know why it was wrong on the first place?

Peter

[Mikenoangelo]

They are a good outfit and when and if I choose to replace the Jubilees clips with proper weights, are very willing, as they should be,  to sort it out. For the moment I prefer to leave it as it is and get on with enjoying using the car.

Mike

[Charles]

This is very encouraging news and I will get under my car with a couple of jubilee clips next week, assuming that I can get my two new front tyres fitted.  My local tyre fitters are unwilling to try in case they damage them as they are very tight on the bibendum style rims on my car (I think that they are early Aprillia wheels).  A fitter at the same company managed (with difficulty) to get two new tyres on my rear wheels - 165 400 - a couple of years ago but he has now left.  So I'm off to Blockley Tyres at Moreton in Marsh next week to see if they can do it.

[peteracs]

They are a good outfit and when and if I choose to replace the Jubilees clips with proper weights, are very willing, as they should be,  to sort it out. For the moment I prefer to leave it as it is and get on with enjoying using the car.

Mike

Nice to know they are willing to sort it out. Had a similar experience recently with refurbished wheels where some of the weights came unstuck. They had been sat waiting to be put on the car for a couple of months and I noticed the weights when I moved them. Company were quite happy to retest all the 5 wheels for me FOC.

Peter

[Kari]

Regarding mounting tyres on bibendum rims, I can only speak of Augusta wheels. For many years I use Michelin 165 X 400 tyres on my Augusta.
I always mount the tyres myself, using tyre levers. And I mount the tyres from the inside of the rims. I once was told that the diameter there was slighly less. It is important to start installing the tyre by placing the tyre bead into the cavity near the position of the valve.
Then I go to the tyre dealer and have the wheels balanced dynamically. My tyre dealer uses motor bike stick-on weights. The Augusta rims are made from thin sheet metal. They can be distorted when clamped onto a modern tyre changing machine.
I hope that helps.  Karl

[Mikenoangelo]

Charles - before fitting Jubilee clips it's worthwhile although tedious, taking the propshaft off and rolling it as I did on two bits of steel angle set up level. This will give you a starting point to see what balance weight is needed to prevent the shaft rolling under its own out of balance, if indeed it does. The jubilee clip itself may be enough as the adjusting bolt is quite heavy in balance weight terms, or if not, use the clip to trap a strip of steel or lead to increase or decrease the balancing effect.
You'll also be able to see if the shaft is bent. It would be hard to determine from this test whether the out of balance is associated with one end of the shaft or the other, which is where the proper balancing machine has an advantage so I'd fit two clips, one at each end then try it on the car and fiddle as seems needed. When doing the rolling test you can roll the shaft with the main tube on the steel "knife edge" and also, with the centering spiders bolted in place,  on the bosses of the spiders to make sure they are concentric withn the shaft.

On tyre fitting, like Karl I use Michelin X 165 x 400 which were fitted by Longstone Tyres without evsn scratching the paint.

Mike

[Charles]

Much good advice.  I think that I must remove the propshaft as you suggest to find a starting point for balancing with jubilee clips.  I have alsways used Michelin millimetrics in the past (also on my Flaminia) but this time, after reading comments on many other classic car websites, I thought I would try the Blockleys - I can already see that they will look the part, if only I can get them fitted.

[JohnMillham]

Much good advice.  I think that I must remove the propshaft as you suggest to find a starting point for balancing with jubilee clips.  I have alsways used Michelin millimetrics in the past (also on my Flaminia) but this time, after reading comments on many other classic car websites, I thought I would try the Blockleys - I can already see that they will look the part, if only I can get them fitted.

I had some Augusta wheels converted to 16" and had Blockleys fitted. Disaster - they are so wide they touched the sliding pillars!

[brian]

I too had rusted rolled rims and found a place on Salisbury plain fro memory that used the old centres, made new spokes and fitted 16" ordinary rims and now very easy to get balanced. Use Avon Tourist tyre.

[Kari]

Coming back to the balancing issue, I am in doubt that the drive shaft would be out of balance. We can assume that, when the car left the factory, the drive train was balanced and without vibration. Later, the drive shaft does its work for decades and is only touched when a removal of gear box or rear axle is due, or a change of the flexible couplings is in need. Although the part is subjected to great torsional loads at high rotation speed, there is no wear at all, provided all the bolts are kept tight. Therefore, I cannot imagine how the drive shaft can become unbalanced, except maybe when damaged in a ground strike or similar when it gets bent or distorted.

On the other hand, the flex couplings are subject to wear and are replaced now and then. There are a few organisations and persons making aftermarket flex couplings in small numbers. We don't know if there are original specifications as to the material used, are avaliable. Sometime couplings are made using an old part as a template. It might be worthwhile to have a close look at the couplings. With some effort an adapter could be made to check balance on two parallel knide edges. After all, the flex couplings are spinning at the same speed as the drive shaft, but with a much larger diameter. Also, all the bolts and nuts attaching the coupling should have the same mass.

Back in 2013, Morris Parry has published a detailed instruction for making flex couplings for those who want to try. He does state the material as "Rubber disc". (The Lancia Augusta newsletter, Issue 9, March 2013)

Next week, I will put my car on jacks and will remove drive shaft and couplings. I will let you know my findings.

Just MHO  Karl