The replacement for the spare gallon can of petrol

[eog]

Could this become a common sight?

[Neil]

Battery vehicle is somewhat limiting, I would think hydrogen powered cars would seem a better option when the refuelling infrastructure is more common, quicker than charging a battery and I assume a lot less weight to lug about than the EVs of today?

[frankxhv773t]

Electric cars seem to be well suited to the urban environment and short trips but are probably an interim measure when it comes to longer journeys. The point has been made though that the scale of infrastructure required and the logistics of generation and supply of electricity mean that for the majority of motor transport fossil fuel remains the only viable option probably for the foreseeable future. 

[DavidLaver]

Perhaps there's an argument that the quicker those who can go electric do so the easier it will be for those who can't.  A third of the electricity is renewable now, but obviously adding "transport" to that would make it a smaller number but it is getting built out at a pace.

Living in a London suburb the majority of our driving would be fine on a battery, a couple of days a year we'd have to plan our stops ahead but it would be ok, once or twice a year we'd need to rent fossil fuel power.  Lots of people don't have a car at all but use a lot of UBERs, a ZIP car from time to time, and rent something for the occasional weekend.

At the moment an electric car is a middle class show off item like a Range Rover would have been 20 years ago.  You need the off street parking to charge it for a start, and they are not cheap...  I see quite a few charging at the supermarket which is also next door to a gym so people without home charging can plan their week around it and make it work.

As the kids have got older its interesting how we're taking the train more and more.  It used to be a train ride there was fun but the journey home horrid with everyone knackered, getting the kids in the car felt pretty much the same as getting them home.  Now we travel lighter and can all get in a cab the other end for the last few miles.  If we went on a lake district holiday we might even take the train there and rent a little car in the same way as people fly-drive.  The last time we went the big family car was a pain in the little lanes and parking.  I used to hate the over compex train ticketing but we can all do it in our sleep now.  I think we've just had too many days ruined by M25 stoppages...

[DavidLaver]

Something else with electric cars - a friend who feels really guilty driving a petrol car tried some. "Budget end" but still an eye watering sum of money.  She was not impressed at how nasty they felt and sounded.  Funny how its stopped being something she's nagging for, she's now on to taking trains to the med instead of flying (alongside the vegetarian sermons).   Obviously she should walk or cycle rather than invest in a tonne or so of metal and poisons that's been shipped twice round the world.

Our all electric busses are not nice either for all the hybrids are smooth and make entertaining noises.

[frankxhv773t]

Your ton of metal and poisons shipped half way round the world is another very relevant issue.

[DavidLaver]

An interesting fact from the HS2 news today was that the CO2 saving from its operation doesn't offset that from construction.  Takes a lot of energy to make things...I speak from experience

Another is that CO2 from cars has gone up the last couple of years.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/daviz/average-emissions-for-new-cars-5#tab-chart_1
https://www.smmt.co.uk/reports/co2-report/

I looked up the lifecycle data, this looks like 2015 so a while ago now (sorry for ugly URL, I struggled as it had a space or something in it):

https://www.google.com/url?client=internal-element-cse&cx=000589083167096512084:zwt0yiryxog&q=https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/workingdocuments/MC-P-11-15a%2520Lifecycle%2520emissions%2520report.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjNieCBzMrnAhUNz4UKHcSzCo0QFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1B_-YezLSzWFDH6Zm5Bqeo

              CO2 lifecycle tonnes     Production
Gasoline             24                       23%
Hybrid                21                       31%
Plug in hybrid      19                       35%
Battery               19                       46%

Greg Archer, LowCVP Managing Director, said: “This work dispels the myth that low carbon
vehicles simply displace emissions from the exhaust to other sources. However, it does
highlight the need to look at reducing carbon emissions from vehicles throughout their
lifecycle. The automotive industry is already taking positive steps to address this issue - the
recent announcement by Toyota of a solar array to provide electricity to power the hybrid
Auris production facility and wind power at the Nissan Leaf plant are excellent examples of
this.”

For a standard mid-sized gasoline ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle the embedded
carbon in production will be around 5.6tCO2e, around three quarters of which is the steel in
the vehicle glider. This highlights the importance of deploying low weight, low carbon
alternatives to current steels in the ultra-low carbon vehicles of the future. A similar electric
vehicle will have embedded production emissions of 8.8tCO2e, 43% of which arise from the
battery. Decarbonising both electricity supply, through renewables; and the production of
batteries will therefore be essential for electric vehicles to deliver ultra-low carbon lifetime
emissions.

[DavidLaver]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2018_04_CO2_emissions_cars_The_facts_report_final_0_0.pdf

Only skimmed the summary, but a 15 to 20 year life span is optimal, diesel was a waste of time, and a reflection of my own central london experience that cars can be regulated off the road.  I keep taking photos of empty roads.  300m from Buckingham Palace to Parliament Square at 6ish one evening EMPTY.  The other day 100m or so off Trafalgar Square at 9am with a parked van and two bikes.  Right next to bank at 4ish the same day two parked vans and bikes and nothing else for the 50m I could see.



The first key development must be to accelerate the shift to electro-mobility. To meet the
goals of the Paris agreement, transport emissions must be reduced by more than 90% by
2050. Such a radical change cannot be achieved through incremental improvements to
existing vehicles, a shift to fossil gas or through advanced biofuels and synthetic fuels that
cannot be produced in the volumes needed to power all mobility. To claim so is a
smokescreen designed to perpetuate engined cars. Future cars will be electric, chargeable in
minutes with ranges of 500km and powered from smart renewable grids.

[DavidLaver]

BUT SO FAR PRE 1980 CLASSICS ARE ENCOURAGED - and in central London I do see a fair few.

[Jai Sharma]

The other issue is whether there is enough cobalt, lithium and goodness knows what else to supply a lot of car battery manufacturers. The increased demand could well make that eye wateringly expensive.

[fay66]

The other issue is whether there is enough cobalt, lithium and goodness knows what else to supply a lot of car battery manufacturers. The increased demand could well make that eye wateringly expensive.

Mined in the Congo that has the majority of cobalt resources, by children aged 4 and 6, used like slaves to pick over the rock in appalling conditions, and  needs up to 33lbs per vehicle.
So much for doing good for the environment, but at what cost to some.
Brian
8227 

[DavidLaver]

This mornings gossip was after another public meeting about closing rat runs.  I think the catalyst is because when the ULEZ is introduced they want as few crossings of the boundary as possible, but it seems to be a pretty major shutdown of back routes in the borough.  Greenwich are doing similar.  "If they're doing that I might as well walk to school" is the response they're pushing.

I had expected Oxford to be all electric by now, I've no idea what their timetable is.  On one visit last year we deliberately explored the labyrinth and it was interesting how they managed to leave a route in to everywhere but forced you out to at least the inner ring to get across to anywhere.  Our route in is to take the A40 all the way to the opposite side then a straight line in, exactly as we do going out to the M25, all the way round, and in on the M3 doing masses more miles but (almost) never through the middle.

Its interesting to do the time vs distance vs fuel cost equation for different routes (and there's a debate about how much polution of what types where), BUT the net result over time is we drive less.

[eog]

Perhaps this is an alternative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlndKQSs6Q

[DavidLaver]

Not sure why its taken so long but Oxford won't even get its TINY zero emissions zone until later this year, and the "big stick" is a tenner for taking a smelly old car in.  Not sure where I got my scare story from but I thought we'd be using electric UBER vans or something like from the park and ride by now to get in and out each term.

Its their "Green Zone" that will actually look like a "town centre" rather than "the bit I thought was pedestrianised" and that's a couple of years off yet.  I watched the video and it looks like that £10/day will rise to £20.  That would have hurt, but not enough to tell him he's on the train or to rent a clean car twice a term.

Of course the bus and taxi fleet and commercial vehicles being pushed to zero emissions (at the point of use!!!).

https://www.oxford.gov.uk/zez