Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale

[GG]

Interesting. Here are some pics of the chassis. I think its this one...

[frankxhv773t]

Thankyou for the pictures. Did they say anything about why the engine is out of it now?

Here is a picture of the underside of this or its sister car following an upset whilst in service with the Czech Army.

[GG]

Thankyou for the pictures. Did they say anything about why the engine is out of it now?

Here is a picture of the underside of this or its sister car following an upset whilst in service with the Czech Army.

Where do you find these pictures! Incredible.

The pictures I got from the guy who said he was selling the car. He did mention it came out of Czechoslovakia, and then mentioned the body in Afghanistan. Mistakenly put the two together. So no discussion of the engine change - wasn't even aware of it. Although... seem to recall some discussion of looking for a gearbox - maybe that was the reason?

[frankxhv773t]

I wasn't suggesting there was an engine change, merely that the pictures at the start of the thread show it with the engine in place and now it has gone. There would have to be some reason for separating the engine from the chassis and being curious by nature I am wondering what the reason is.

As to where I find pictures, just by obsessively trawling the internet. There is a highly detailed account of the history of the Czech cars (I have translated it as best I can and it runs to 9 pages) at rotanazdar.cz/?p=8325 which has the best collection of pictures I have seen. Unfortunately the first section contains the usual misinformation about production numbers but I have more convincing sources for that.

[Dikappa]

Some things became clear now. The vendor is restoring a Theta which had a Kappa gearbox fitted. (with central gearshift os opposed to side shift)
So in fact the 1Z was purchased for the gearbox, and is now fitted with the 'ex Theta' gearbox and engine, while quite a few other bits were also used for the Theta.

The 1Z is thus deprived from it's original components....it also lacks quite a few things.  On the plus side the Theta will make a magnificent car.
But I wonder if anyone is ever going to attack the 1Z project.  There is quite a bit of stuff, but there is also a lot not there, it will be a very daring project, and certainly not financially viable, even if one got the project for free....

[donw]

Any pictures or details of the Theta chassis number etc?

[Dikappa]

I did not make pictures, but it is a red 'racer' with an oil barrel like fuel tank behind the seats, and came from Australia a few years ago, and was sold by Nick Benwell if I'm not mistaken.
But it had a Kappa gearbox and engine, and apparently quite a few parts missing.

[frankxhv773t]

I came across this as well https://www.autobelle.it/it/a/Vendo_Motore_Lancia_Kappa_1919-1922_275807.xhtml

Whilst it say Kappa 1919_1922 engine there seem to be pictures of two different engines, two bladed fan and four bladed fan. Would I be right in thinking the two bladed fan is Kappa and the four bladed fan something earlier?

[mikeC]

One side-valve, one overhead cam!

[donw]

Koen  The Australian car sold by Nick was a Kappa.
 
Frank

The 2 engines the second one with 2 blade fan has detachable head must be post Theta.

Thetas have a 2 blade fan.  On the 4 blade engine ant see any teeth on the flywheel or starter motor so it is probable the commercial version for a Iota.

[Dikappa]

Maybe someone should go explain them then, it now has a Theta engine, and they removed the Kappa bulkhead and made another one so they are doingt every effort to make it a Theta.....

[Roland]

No this 1Z for sale is not a Zeta which had the gearbox in unit with the rear axle at the back. The 1Z for sale is 1Z Triota  as it has gear and brake levers on top of gearbox and detachable head engine, date chassis made 1921 to 1923 period.

[Roland]

The DiKappa Vet number 84, which John Nicholson ran in the UK was ex Aus and is still in the UK.  It was found by Aus ALR member Jack Cocks   and the chassis was restored to near original  and was running when I visited Jack place in Aus in the mid/late 1970's.  I was given a ride on it (before the body Koen mentions was made) and I have some pics of this event and of the DiKappa engine.  It came to a LMC UK meeting at Castle Coombe and I have some photos of it there but I cannot remember the event's date. When last I heard of it, it still had it's original DiKappa engine (I have several pics of I the engine).
The only other DiKappa I know of is in Turin and was not running when I last had news of it, although I was told it had a body and was very original but minus some parts at that time.
Nick Benwell brought several Lancia's  into the UK from Aus mostly Lambda's but a few Kappa's as well.

[frankxhv773t]

I have the feeling things are getting confused. The picture at the start of the thread has a side mounted gear lever and the chassis is marked Tipo 1Z. If as originally suggested it is an armoured car chassis that came out of Czechoslovakia it would have to have begun its life in 1915 as a series 1 Ansaldo-Lancia 1Z on what is basically a model 1912 1Z truck chassis.

The Czech armoured cars ended their days dismantled as instructional chassis in technical schools. It seems perfectly conceivable that a non standard engine has been installed at some point over the years.

Does not Dikappa say the vendor wanted the side operated gearbox for another project and it is they that have put a centre operated gear box in the chassis.

Clearly it has had a chequered life and its history may no longer be discernible.

[Roland]

Yes, strong possibility of confusion! - caused by the different chassis in this longish blog I expect: to list those of which photos have been shown. (Except for blog about the DiKappa chassis with a Kappa engine)

1. 3 June by Frankx - pics of Autoblinda's with armour in active use
2. 6 June by Frankx - Pics of Autoblinda's in use and as remains two of which show fixed engines installed so early 1Z - on chassis from 1915 to ?1920
3. 7 June by DiKappa -1Z chassis for sale WITH ENGINE and GEARBOX- detachable head centre change gearbox so later type 1Z - post ?1920
4. 7 July by GG - 1Z chassis ex Czech Republic with ONLY A GEARBOX (no engine). This gearbox is side change so chassis is early 1Z 1915-?1920 (I can confirm that this was bought for the side change gearbox which is being fitted to a car chassis with an Iota type fixed head engine.  So a different chassis to number 3 above.
All these comments assume that the engines or gearboxes have NOT been changed from the original build. And I can confirm that this can be done between Theta and Kappa/ DiKappa designs and 1Z early and late without any real problems.

SO there are two different chassis under discussion.  Sorry but I cannot be more precise on the dates of manufacture of 1Z as I have conflicting info on this - the only confirmed date being the start of 1Z production as 1915. It seems likely that these engine/gearbox design changes followed the same changes as the Car chassis - Theta fixed head side change from late 1913 to 18 , Kappa fixed head central change in 1919.  There is also the 1ZM which is mentioned in some modern literature - and possibly in some period literature as from 1912 to 1915 and has an engine which appears to be the same as the Theta fixed head design (and so predated the car).


While I try to keep a register of pre Lambda cars - some 68 in my records - I don't have details of commercials unless I know the owners.