Zagato Rear Window Motor Electrics

[Rog]

hi Spider2-

Series 1 motor: on my motor, and also on the wiring diagram, you've got 4 wires connected to the motor.
Black - EARTH
White - up/down
Brown - up/down
Grey - +ve 12v

Ive written "up/down" against both WHITE and BROWN because I cant remember which is which but the idea is that one of them controls the UP and therefore the other is DOWN! But theyre both +ve12v.
Your question about the GREY wire: yes - positive 12v! My understanding of electric motors is limited but the idea is that you have field and armature windings....the grey feeds the armature I believe, the white and brown feed the feed coil windings which are flipped ia the white/brown wire to give you the ability to change direction....someone more knowledgable can explain that better than I....

I believe the motor will work without the grey wire....I might be wrong about that....but I think it will, but maybe with less power.

What follows is the approach I took. Im sure you're way more knowledgeable! I have a limited understanding of car electrics, so I adopted a very simple  approach....
(this is just about seeing if the motor works as opposed to creating a new circuit involving Relays)

First thing I did, is take the motor off the car - which is pretty simple (4 screws and that "stiffening arm")  - and then test it....
I put mine in a small vice, then connected it to a spare battery I had.
If you connect GREY&WHITE to 12v and BLACK to earth = motor turns one way.....BROWN&WHITE to 12v and BLACK to earth, it should go other way....
(You can do the same thing without removing the motor of course - in situ)
If that works....put it back in car...

I then tested my motor (with hatch open) with my spare battery and test leads in-situ.....youve now got the limit switches to deal with....make sure the limit switches are connected to the correct UP or DOWN!

So now....with a bit of luck....youve got a working motor, with working limit switches....
Obviously you may have some "mechanical" reason why the motor isnt working correctly at this point...as in, maybe the "gear" is jammed or the thread stuck etc...


Maybe the hatch now works when you use the dash switch....? if so, then you can ignore the next bit but start thinking about using RELAYS to avoid the AMPAGE to operate the switch going through the expensive Ducellier switch (which is fragile I understand)....

Then, next step IMO, check that the wires coming from your Ducellier switch are good. you should have 3 wires coming off that switch (thats the BROWN, WHITE and GREY)....and of course, youve got power going to the switch.
If you take that fascia panel off, you then (with the motor back on the car - with hatch window open) have access directly to the wires connected to the switch.
You can test the continuity of the wires going to the hatch from the switch...and you can also, using your test leads, connect the same wires together WITHOUT involving the switch...just hot wire them together...as before power to GREY&BROWN or GREY&WHITE.....make sense?

If that works, and it doesnt work when you connect them back to switch, then you know youve got a problem with switch....
You can also check that the switch is doing the right thing of course with a meter and using the continuity function....

hope that helps
rog

[Spider2]

Thanks Rog, I pretty much have done all that. Tested the motor in my workshop (AKA the garden shed) and it work pretty well connected to a battery. Disassembled the mechanical bits, cleaned and lubed. It spins well on the finger wheel.
However, very strange. I remember now. The grey wire that should go to the switch was disconnected but had been connected to the frame of the screw jack with an electrical connection so it was never connected to the switch, but it did work in that configuration but badly.
I have checked for power on the grey wire and Nil volts, at least at the boot end, that could be my problem.
I will check at the switch.
Another thing is a PO took the limit switches out of the equation. Consequentially the motor would have hit the stops and caused it and the switch contacts stress. Limit switches work well but still disconnected until I sort the main problem out.
Cheers
Simon.

[Rog]

However, very strange. I remember now. The grey wire that should go to the switch was disconnected but had been connected to the frame of the screw jack with an electrical connection so it was never connected to the switch, but it did work in that configuration but badly.

If Im following you correctly, weirdly my motor was also set up that way - earthing it through the GREY wire. The BLACK was not connected to anything. It did work but, as you said, not well.....

Limit switches: ugh! As you mentioned, you really don't want to disconnect those - that little motor is going to stress out if it just pushes against the stops. Strangely enough my limit switches were the wrong way round! For example, when the hatch was at the UPPER limit the lowering circuit wouldnt engage because the lowering circuit had been cut off by the limit switch! Mad!

From what Ive read, and others comments, the Ducellier switch can "burn out" or start misbehaving because of the ampage going through it. Mine is not connecting the GREY wire terminal correctly - which it should connect when you push the switch UP or DOWN....however, as Im going to put the Relay system in (to avoid the ampage going through that switch), I dont think I really need that. Ill just drive the Relays at the back of the car with the BROWN and WHITE lines...which will also give power to the GREY wire going directly to the motor. Im going to use either 2 double pole relays or 4 single poles...

[lancialulu]

When I fitted the relays (4 - 2 each side) to the electric windows (same motor as hatch) they operate very fast- too fast for the mechanism. I would advise making sure the limit switches work and do their job or the motor will possibly de-thread itself... I have not yet relayed the rear hatch motor as I like the slow operation......

[Spider2]

My limit switches work well and will reconnect them once the primary problem has been solved. Strange how the whole system seems to be wired contrary to the wiring diagram. My motor is earthed to the frame of the assembly via the grey wire and the black one is not connected to anything. One theory I have is the grey wire caused too high a field voltage and made the motor run too fast so people decades ago discovered that disconnecting it made it run slower. Just surmising.
I have good voltage on the brown and white wires at the motor end when the switch is operated up and down which should rule out the switch and the wiring. The motor works on the bench but not in situ. The motor I guess has to be earned to the frame of the car. This I assume is just done via the attachment but why the black wire disconnected? Logically it looks like it was once connected with the bolt that secures the bracing strut to the motor frame.
Keeps my mind busy in retirement!
Simon

[Rog]

My limit switches work well and will reconnect them once the primary problem has been solved. Strange how the whole system seems to be wired contrary to the wiring diagram. My motor is earthed to the frame of the assembly via the grey wire and the black one is not connected to anything. One theory I have is the grey wire caused too high a field voltage and made the motor run too fast so people decades ago discovered that disconnecting it made it run slower. Just surmising.
I have good voltage on the brown and white wires at the motor end when the switch is operated up and down which should rule out the switch and the wiring. The motor works on the bench but not in situ. The motor I guess has to be earned to the frame of the car. This I assume is just done via the attachment but why the black wire disconnected? Logically it looks like it was once connected with the bolt that secures the bracing strut to the motor frame.
Keeps my mind busy in retirement!
Simon

Hi Simon - I believe that BLACK wire is the earth - per the original wiring diagram. Mine wouldnt work without it being connected to the body of the car via one of the 4 screws that attach the mechanism to the car. However, as you mentioned, mine was also originally earthed via the GREY and the BLACK was disconnected......I dont undertstand enough about motors as to why that would still work!

[Rog]

When I fitted the relays (4 - 2 each side) to the electric windows (same motor as hatch) they operate very fast- too fast for the mechanism. I would advise making sure the limit switches work and do their job or the motor will possibly de-thread itself... I have not yet relayed the rear hatch motor as I like the slow operation......

Thanks Tim!