Modestine

[fay66]

Robin,
Sorry I didn't make it yesterday but how did you get on with Modestine? did the collective knowledge of the gathered Lancisti throw any light or suggestions regarding you elderly lady's noisy inner workings

Brian
8227

[JohnMillham]

Robin and Morris. Any diagnosis yet? Is no news good news?
   Regards, John

[Dilambdaman]

Ok, here's the update you've all (?) been waiting for.

Thursday before the AGM arrive at the home of Morris and Carole Parry in North Wales.

Friday am went something like this:  fire Modestine up, Morris says, 'If that were my car I'd take the engine out, dismantle it, carefully examining everything'. I reply, ' What are you doing on Monday!'

Off to the LMC Annual Rally and AGM for a super weekend made all the more special by James Parry generously lending me his beautiful S3 Appia Berlina for the Giro. (I so want one!) Started the Dilambda up late Saturday pm which instantly drew a large crowd and lots of useful comment and advice. John Millham had even brought along his stethoscope!

Back to the Parry home on Sunday evening and on Monday morning start extracting Modestine's heart. By Tuesday lunchtime the engine is upside down on the garage floor and Morris is looking for evidence of the rattle. There's nothing obvious until he gets to big end #8 which has far more play in it than is good for it - in fact it has run and on inspection #5 main bearing is not looking good either.

So, it looks as though at some point there has been a serious lack of oil pressure, and  Morris is unhappy with the shallowness of the oil groove in the main bearing white metal.

Pack it all in the van, car on the trailer and back home Wednesday.

Today, consult with my local V&V workshop who don't believe for a moment that JEL (they who re-conditioned the bottom end) are to blame as they use them for all their white metalling and have never had a problem. I speak with Ian Burlingham at JEL and he arranges for the engine to be collected tomorrow, Friday and promises to give it priority when it arrives with him on Monday.

The plan is that on its return the V&V workshop guys will rebuild the engine in the hope that they will spot anything else that is amiss. They are determined that this time it will be right - I suspect that they are fed up with the sight of me!

So, there you have it, lets hope that between us we are successful.

Grateful thanks to all on the forum who have taken an interest in the problem and to those of you who took the time to offer suggestions and commiserations during the weekend. Extra special big, big thanks to Morris, Carole and James for their hospitality. To my mind Morris is the modern day Harry Manning, his workshops, stores and being on hand to offer advice took me back to those halcyon (I think?) days when one could arrive in Farnham and spend as long as you needed under the watchful eye of Harry until the problem was solved. Big difference being that the Parry accommodation is far and away more salubrious! and Morris doesn't rely on a piece of string to hold his overalls together.

Big disappointment  is that the VSCC 75th at Malvern is looking distinctly sans Modestine.

I'll keep you posted on developments.

Robin.    

[fay66]

Hi Robin,
Pleased you're getting somewhere at last, with many thanks to wonderful Lancisti who are prepared to help others with problems with their cars.

Brian
8227

[DavidLaver]

Something else to look into is what might have starved the oil FLOW.

- no undue constriction on the route to the bearing
- sufficient clearance for oil to leave the bearing
- no "leaks" upstream
- no "paths of too little resistance" elsewhere in the system

You have a rare and complex bird, so quite how you know what is "due" and "sufficient" I know not...  Fingers crossed oil groove width is the key.

In terms of "pressure" and "flow" I read recently how modern superbikes run spooky low oil pressures and know that some of the hot Austin 7s end up with a high pressure pump to the bottom end and a low pressure pump for the various "drip feeds" as an alternative to adjusting fits and constrictor plates and so on to "balance" the needs of the various bits and bobs round the engine.  Even then they need a lot of side clearance on No4 or the high pressure oil gets trapped and overheats.

Sorry to be a damp squib - from long (thankfully now prior!!) experiance with computer systems finding A fault doesn't mean you've found THE fault, aside from the doctor-patient muddle of symptoms and causes and complications.  What ELSE might be wrong with it?   I know you've got quicker getting the engine in and out but each time out is an opportunity for faults to jump out at you.

You seemed to be bearing up well at the AGM - is the trick is to keep reminding yourself what a privilage it is to be working on such fine machinery?   Its human nature to never expect quite as much trouble as we find ourselves in, but I'm trying to imagine the vendor telling you "never any bother these guv".

Happy hunting!!

David

[JohnMillham]

I'm glad you have found the cause of the noise, if not the cause of the problem. It's surprising that there wasn't more evidence when you looked before. Let's hope that V and V can put it all together in time for Malvern, but if they can't, I could do with a navigator on the Tuesday "Homes and gardens" run in the Augusta.
I'm sure they will know, but they will need to check the alignment of the ofending rod after the pounding it's had. And cleaning out the oilways won't be a five minute job. Good luck with the rebuild.
Regards, John

[Dilambdaman]

Brief update.

Ian Burlingham from JEL rang to say that the engine arrived this morning, that he has made a preliminary examination and is horrified!

He's pretty sure that its poor oil flow. What we thought was an oil groove in the main bearing has been caused by a piece of metal, there is no oil groove in that half of the bearing!

So first, another thorough clean out of the oil ways and then more white metaling - listen carefully and you should hear the groans from my wallet!

Ian reckons it could be back with me middle of next week so it looks as though the very best I can hope for is to arrive at the VSCC 75th celebrations 2 or 3 days late.

Robin.

[rogerelias]

Well at least they may have found WHY, but, is there no warranty on the engine rebuild?Best of luck though.

[DavidLaver]

...and to remember the oilways might be too wide someplace so letting it escape before the bearings...

...perhaps a cam bearing too wide letting it all escape...

...too much side clearance on an "upstream" big end or main...

...a problem with the casting to make a crack or hole the oil can escape through...

Easy to say if you're not doing it - but would it be possible to pressure test individual oilways?
   
Am trying to think how to "divide and rule" and at least be able to eliminate some stuff.   Perhaps test the assembled camfeed side to be sure you haven't got a fountain someplace?   Am thinking any old oil pump driven by an electric drill in a biscuit tin sump, a flexi pipe to a tapping "somewhere" in the oil system, a couple of bolts as "bungs" to the crank feed, pump some oil and see that it builds pressure rather than spurts out somewhere you'd never thought to look.

Another thought is if there's an "obvious" place to put an extra oil pressure tapping (or two) to be sure you've got high pressure oil in the crank when its running.   People will look at the dash and ask "what's that dial?" and you'll say "oil pressure", and then they ask "so what's that one then?" and you say "that's also oil pressure, and so's that one, and that one, and that one."  They'd work out the rest of the story themselves.

David

[Dilambdaman]

A bit of good news at last. 

Ian Burlingham of JEL rang today to say that he had dismantled the engine and reckons that he only needs to clean up #5 main bearing and re-metal 2 big ends. He'll also have a good clean out of the oilways again.

It should be back with me next Monday latest and the v&v guys are going to rebuild it and check everything thoroughly.

So not as disastrously expensive as we at first thought.

Robin.

[stuwilson128]

That is good news Robin.  I hope this is the light at the end of the tunnel for you and Modestine and that you can finally start to enjoy her again 

[fay66]

I've got everything crossed!

Brian
8227

[rogerelias]

I had everything crossed and fell off me chair

[fay66]

That says it all

[Dilambdaman]

Engine arrived back safely today from JEL, hate letting it out of my sight! Fortune smiled on me this time with only one main bearing needing cleaning up and two big ends re-metalled.

Start putting it back together tomorrow (Tuesday) although it is down to me as the guys round the corner are not going to be able to take it on for weeks. Morris Parry has promised to stay close to his telephone! and David Mead (August) is on standby if needed.

Robin.