The Paul Atkinson - Augusta - news update [etc] ...

[Mark Dibben]

Thanks for all these thoughts. We have traced the problem. The sealant is failing: It's turning to dust. You can literally blow it out the fuel outlet! New tank required I expect, but first we have to get our money back. Are new tanks available or will it need to be made?

[Kari]

Most probably there won't be any new tanks on the market. Even if you find one, it might be just as bad inside.
Find someone who will open up the tank at the bottom on 4 places corresponding with the 4 bays. 8" by 8" should do. Then have it dry ice blasted inside and outside. That will clear it out and show any weak spots.
Check the rivets which attach the baffles etc. The bottom of the float tube is sensitive for corrosion as water can pool there.

IMHO there is no need for sealant, just have the tank near full when the car isn't used for some length of time to prevent condensation forming.

The pictures show my tank which already had a repair a long time ago, just to show the inside. The repair was riveted and then soft soldered. Alu rivets don't work, I got copper pop-rivets from a local plumber. Paint outside with two-pack to resist spilled E10 petrol. I hope that helps. Karl

 

[Mark Dibben]

Hi Karl,
That looks really good!
Unfortunately, the tank was very badly rusted on the inside. Like the front shocks, it looked like it been left empty for the five years it hadn't been run. Layers of rust - 'Titanic' springs to mind. If we shot blasted it, I'm not sure how much'd be left - not much - and I wouldn't trust it, especially given its proximity to the front seat passenger! So, nope. We'll have to get a new tank made then. Good. At least we know. Chris' colleague Jo has just made a new tank for a Sizaire-Berwick they're rebuilding, which is super.
Time, time, time, that's the only thing...
It'll be next year before this is ready now, I'll bet.
Cheers - Mark

[MichaelElsom]

As it happens there is a thread on the website of a well known chain driven car touching on this very point. Suggestions from members so far include the following:
John Underwood (Star Engineering) at Usk Road, Caerleon, Gwent, NP6 1LQ. Tel : 01633 423915. I have used him in the past for radiator repairs at which he is excellent.
Roger Figgures at Fusion Welding and Fabrication , Bentley Way, Ampress Park, SO41 8JW has been suggested as someone who would make a tank in stainless steel.
The following suggestion (in fact from a Lancia owner as well) 'You could speak to Dave Cale in Worcestershire....he can make you a beauty in steel sheet which Thomas Gameson in the Midlands will professionally tin for you....better than leaded sheet as it tins all edges. Then a simple soldering job by your local radiator chaps - saves £1000s -literally and a top job. I did my Vauxhall tank that way and its beautiful...one radiator company quoted £6k and I made mine for well under £1,000 all in.' has been seconded by another member. I can provide links to the two people who recommended this approach. The Vauxhall referred to is a 30/98.

[Mark Dibben]

Thanks Michael,
It's all helpful so I'd be grateful, thanks eh. Some of the folk in the VSCC are saying get it done in Aluminium - lighter and won't rust. Or at least it'd be a very long time before it did.
Still pondering :-)
Thanks again,
Mark

[Mikenoangelo]

There is a lot of debate about whether ethanol fuel attacks aluminium fuel tanks. In general it seems that up to e10 is ok. The problem seems to be that ethanol absorbs moisture from the air which can cause corrosion of steel and attack aluminium. This is most likely to happen if the car is unused for a few months with the tank part full so the maximum surface area of fuel is available to absorb moisture. Answer is to top the tank up before laying up for the winter, after all Cleveland Discol with 15% ethanol was sold from about 1930 to 1960 without getting a bad reputation, presumably because cars were used, not laid up.
My Salmson has an aluminium tank, fitted in 1985 - no problems seen.
There are additives which claim to protect .

Mike Clark

[Mark Dibben]

Okay, so the latest news is that the tank was sent away to Hartlepool Radiators for them to re-do it, and the result was not usable unfortunately.
Thank goodness for Mike Wheeler, who lives not very far away from me in Witney and who I first met nigh on 50 years ago when I was a small boy and I went into his motorcycle shop with my Dad, who pioneered NGK in this country. Mike was a customer of his. Small world, because as many of you will know, Mike is a great Lancia man, with a Lambda, an Augusta saloon and the famous china blue supercharged Augusta March Special. The one that was on the stand at the NEC Classic Car Show last month. Oh, and a Fiat six-light, but we'll ignore that!!
Anyway, I told him the story and he said 'Never mind, I've got two on the shelf in the garage.' After insisting on paying him twice what he asked me for, because... well, to pay what he asked me to pay him would have been daylight robbery, one of the tanks was in the boot and on its way up to Chris McPheat.
Mike had told me 'It's nickel plated so it won't rust.' And indeed there was no rust at all either inside or out.
Which led me to ponder how the one on Paul's car had gone rusty...
Anyway, the tank was seemingly off a maroon car and so Chris needed to remove the paint. As he did so, he found black paint underneath, but it needed repainting to be able to go on the car. But Chris said, 'If I send this away to a painter, they'll bake it as they do these days, and all the nickel will melt and run out.'
Is that the answer to why the original tank had gone rusty?
'I don't want to paint it with a spray can myself, because I'm not so sure these modern petrols won't lift that. So what I suggest we do is I gently remove the paint to leave the nickel coating. I'll gently polish that and we'll see what that looks like.'
Looks great :-)
The only trick now is to have a fuel cap made for the tank and a new electrical sender fitted, because the cap is a different one to the one on the car and the sender that we did for the original is too long for this new tank also (and the aperture for the original mechanical rod sender that was still in the new tank is a completely different size too). Either Lancia changed the internal shape of the tank along with the cap design at some point or perhaps it is an after-market tank? But the latter doesn't make any sense, because it's nickel plated as from the factory. Perhaps the tank on the car as I bought it was not genuine Lancia - hence the reason for the rust?
Anyway, even if the answer to these questions is lost in the mists of time, it matters not really. This one looks to be perfect. The first time I've felt something has gone right quite honestly. Everything else has felt like a fight. But, finally the car is about where both myself and Chris, to be fair, thought it was when I bought it two and a half years ago. So perhaps I will get to drive it in the New Year.
Fingers crossed. 
All best cheers for the Festive Season,
Mark

[Kari]

Quite a story regarding your tank.

By the look, the tank looks as it has been modified/repaired at some time. The filler neck seems to be at the original place, but the opening for the sender is at a different place and of different size.
I don't think they were nickel plated in the factory. Perhaps tinned on the outside. Rust occurs when the inside is exposed to humid air (empty tank) or in modern times petrol containing alcohol attracting water.

If you are happy, use it. You can always paint it, but it should not be heated.

I have 2 questions re the photo of the tank.
Whats the purpose of the brass container/pump forward of the tank?
What is held by the tree bolts at the side of the tank? 2 of the bolts go trough the Lancia data plate!

Thanks   Karl

[Mark Dibben]

Hello Karl,
The ins and outs of the new tank (Mike's) over the one that was on the car (Paul's) are a puzzle. Mike's tank definitely had a mechanical fuel gauge rod inside the tank and the working mechanism on the top minus the clockwork bit, so it's genuine enough. I reckon Lancia changed the fuel tank design at some point, because the length of the rod is shorter than on Paul's too. But which is the newer and which is the older I have no idea. The bolts you mention I have no clue! I'll ask Chris when I am next up. The second reservoir is for the hydraulically adjustable rear suspension fitted to the Lusso models of which this is one, that is internally adjustable from the cockpit with its own gauge. These are just visible in the attached photo.
More news as and when :-)
All best festive cheers,
Mark

[Running Board]

looks like a belna tank to me, smaller tank unit than italian cars and operated by a chain and float not like the geared mechanism on the italian cars ,also has the clip to to secure the conduit for the chain on the top of the tank which i think is belna only ,i could be wrong , i'm no expert ,j

[Kari]

I am sorry, I did miss the adjustable rear shock absorbers mentioned earlier in this tread. Questions answered, thank you.

As James is pointing out correctly, the tank is from a Belna. This is confirmed by several photos from the internet. I think the (Italian) petrol gauge in the instrument panel will need to be adapted to the french sender, if there is one.

Karl

[Mark Dibben]

Ah thanks, a Belna tank. That makes sense then. D'accord nous avons quelque chose Francaise sur la voiture, bon. And anyway, a good deal cheaper than having a new one made. Hartlepool Radiators rendered the original unusable so there was no choice. And you are right, it is a different size, because the electronic sender unit that Chris had on the original is too long for this one.
We've changed it to electronic, by the way because I wanted to use the original fuel gauge aperture for a rather lovely rev counter. Otherwise I'll blow it up. Attached - and the eagle eyed among you will note I'll have to stick a lower redline on this rev counter, otherwise I'll blow it up anyhow!!
You'll see also it has a new Bluemels Bentley steering wheel too. The one Paul had on it was an unwelded Brookands one with the spokes only slotted. Hmmm. According to Bluemels, the new one is in fact an Aston Martin wheel as they stole the design from Bentley and shrunk the diameter for their Le Mans cars, and this is the same diameter as that for the Augusta. Very thoughtful of Aston Martin to consider that I thought! Bluemels had the original Lancia three spoke wheel on the shelf in stock, but I don't like it at all. All wrong to me.
The new wheel and the rev counter change the atmosphere in the cabin quite remarkably. Feels much more complete, period and, dare I say it, sporting to me - which is what any Lancia should be after all. And also British too of course, with the green inside and out - exactly what I wanted all along. Ha - it's only taken two years of 'effing about' fixing the car to actually get there. Still, hopefully nearly there now. Only a few more things to do before it's 'where I want it' :-)

[Mark Dibben]

Okay news on the tank, in the order I received it this week from Chris McPheat. In short, a lot of work, but much progress; flickr link to photos below:

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I have now fitted the fuel filler neck and cap from the original tank onto the new tank. The neck's diameter was slightly larger than the hole and the hole also had an internal lip that I wanted to get rid of, careful filling and the use of a flap wheel sander on the drill facilitated this first part. The neck has a flange that goes inside the tank, about 5mm larger in diameter than the hole, as well as two locating lugs around 100º apart. I copied the old tank and filed out 3 nicks in the hole perimeter, 2 for the locators once fitted, the third to allow the whole filler and flange to pass through the hole sideways before being pulled back square. I then suspended the tank from the filler neck o the weight of the tank was on the flange and, as both parts were already copiously tinned, heated it up and ran solder all around the joint. It could not have gone better, a got a very solid and leak free joint all the way around. For the cap, as it has the extension on for fuel level, all I had to do was take a couple of mm of the end so it seated nicely. I can’t tell you how glad I am that this worked all to plan. That just leaves the sender.
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I have some more news on the fuel tank. Joe came by yesterday and we chatted about solutions for mounting the sender. We clearly both then thought about it overnight as he came in again this morning and we went through our options. I wanted the adapter to be secure so I talked him into my idea of using a split securing ring to go inside the tank and an adapter that would fit into an enlarged hole that's drilled and tapped to accept the unmodified fuel sender. This way the tank will be sandwiched and sealed between the ring and the adapter, making it very secure, and if the sender fails in the it will be just a matter of unscrewing it and dropping in a new one.
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Some more news to finish the week. Today I cut the fuel sender hole in the tank. I first cut through a piece of 10mm plywood to make a guide and then strapped this securely to the top of the tank where I wanted the new hole to be (I wanted to come a couple of mm towards the centre to move the edge away from a  baffle and a couple more towards the front of the tank to make sure the strengthening ridge was also avoided). The cutter worked well, the hole was perfect for the adapter and once the internal burrs were removed it all went together beautifully. The tank is now back on the car, fuel sender tested with the gauge. I am not happy with the tap & filter, it is too heavy and has too many joints. I am going to have Joe help me on Monday to get rid of some of these - the outlet thread on the filter is a steel insert, if I can remove this I can have a much more simple outlet and loose 4 joints. I am also going to have the banjo that attaches the fuel tap to the tank outlet made narrower across the faces and shorted in the thread so it can be fitted direct into the tap - this takes 2 more joints out of the situation. I have put some more photos on the Flickr album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mcpheat_automotive/53532138732/in/album-72157719214583667/).
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I should say the reason for the fuel tap that you will see in the photos and that Chris is wanting to simplify is that the internals on the original shut-off from the cabin had all-but disintegrated and rendered an under-bonnet shut off tap necessary, and the one that Paul had on the car, at the end of a brass fuel line right by the carburetor, leaked. Plus, I wanted in any case to - as you know from the previous posts - put a 'redundancy' into the start procedure by having a dash start-button. Or in fact an engine turn-over switch as its wired live on purpose. That is, to be able to use my left leg to de-clutch while starting; as originally designed with the left foot-operated starter, de-clutching is impossible. We used the holes in the firewall and in the dash from the original manual fuel shut-off to achieve this, which of course renders the foot start button, though still in situ, now merely an ornament. But all that then necessitated a new fuel tap, importantly much closer to the tank and thus much farther away from a hot exhaust manifold than the (leaking) one Paul had fitted (though I'm sure it didn't leak when he fitted it, however long ago that was). It is *this* new fuel tap that Chris is discussing above.

So anyway, a shakedown test drive hopefully towards the end of next week. I am going up to drive it all being well the Monday following.
Keep your fingers crossed! :-)

[Mikenoangelo]

Mark I agree about the left foot starter pedal. It's a pest if you happen to stall the engine in traffic. My original starter pedal switch  failed but being a bit involved with another  vintage project I just replaced it with one from  a 1960's Mini, the button on the floor version, which fits in place of the Lancia pedal with no significant mods to the car. I'll probably eventually fit a button below the dash out of sight as I have done on my Salmson as a security measure. Hope the test run goes well!
Mike Clark

[Kari]

I did some work on my tank as the paint was damaged by spilled E10. Also I have been replacing the original sender unit by a new, very expensive part from Cavalitto. As my tank sits higher than the original, I had to modify the sender unit as such that it would clear the bonnet. Now calibrated, indicates to the liter.

Foot starter: I prefer to start the engine without pressing the clutch pedal. This because avoiding damage to the axial bearing surfaces of the centre main bearing. By pressing the clutch pedal, the crankshaft is pulled back by considerable force into the axial bearing. There might be little or no lubrication as oil pressure has to build up first.  However, by not pressing the clutch pedal, some of the shafts and gears in the gearbox have to be turned with the starter motor, offering some (little) resistance. The Augusta manual does not mention any action by the clutch pedal when starting the engine.

I hope the test runs went well, I look forward hearing from the impressions.

Kari