Flavia 815 Vignale electrical problems

[williamcorke]

My Flavia Convertible recently flattened its battery overnight, after a long run.

I couldn't charge the battery until it was disconnected and the reason for this turned out to be that 3 of the 4 headlights were on, despite the switch being in the off position.

Having checked that the dash switches were working correctly, it seemed clear that the complex CEAM electromagnetic control box (a comparatively new old stock replacement, as I've had trouble with the previous one) was the culprit.

First 3 photos below show what the inside of the regulator looked like. Two of the 3 coils blackened and showing clear evidence of overheating. When I reconnected the battery with the lid off the box, one of them started smoking.

I have a spare box, but don't want to fit it if whatever caused the first one to fail is going to kill the replacement. Two of the 3 relays failing suggests to me an external cause.

The voltage measured across the battery terminals with the engine running varies from 10v at idle to a maximum of 14v with the engine running at 4k RPM. My understanding is that this is an acceptable voltage.

Can someone advise me on what I should check next? Could one of the relays in the CEAM headlight box 'jamming on' have caused the meltdown across two coils?

Last photo is of the rather crusty voltage regulator fitted to the car. Should I be investigating it?

[Kaha]

I believe they had a few glasses of wine before the afternoon they designed those relays...

If you turn off the lights when the car is on high beams, it should automatically switch to dip beams when the lights go off.

If the turning thingy gets stuck and does not turn the proper quarter of a turn, two of the relays will have their coils fully powered, until you run out of battery, or they burn out.

[williamcorke]

Thanks. The rotating thingy that is struck by the 'nodding-donkey' (activated by the coil) is indeed a weird bit of design and looks designed to fail over time, as grease dries out, damp gets in or whatever else.

One of the Aprilia's switches has a similar concept where pushing the switch causes rotation and leaf springs control the moment and locate. If the springs apply too much or too little pressure, the device doesn't work properly.

The key bit of information you have provided is that the 'wheel' not rotating to one of its correct 90 degree positions would leave coils fully powered. It seems reasonably certain that this is what happened to my unit, so replacing the box should sort the issue out.

Best, William

[williamcorke]

Well this is turning into a bit of a saga as the second-hand replacement CEAM box that I ordered from a supplier in South Africa turned up, eventually, in pieces (and was possibly in questionable condition before it was damaged in transit).

One embarrassing and rather infuriating aspect of this issue that is keeping the Flavia off the road during peak season (a slightly tongue in cheek adjective for the UK, especially in 2023) is that a little while ago ago I spotted one of these CEAM boxes on eBay, bought it for £30 and put it on a shelf for future eventualities. Can I find it when that eventuality comes... No!

Like all of us, I suppose, I aspire to organised storage of parts. This seems to lead in my case and perhaps with some of you, to a cycle of behaviour where the occasional inability to find a specific item - part or tool - that you know you have, leads to a wholesale spring clean and improvements in labelling, storage, categorisation etc. etc.

Perhaps this is natures way. Or a character fault. No need to comment, thank you.

So on to the actual point of this slightly rambling post. Does anyone have one of these boxes that I can buy off them?

Or, has anyone fitted an alternative set up using readily available components and can share some learnings?

Thanks, William

[Kevinlincs]

I haven't got a unit to sell but I have to say, despite you saying no need that you are very much not alone in putting things away for safe keeping then not being able to find them!
I guess the answer is to be organised, well that's what I say I must do! I wouldn't say I envy people who have the job sussed and have perfectly labelled drawers and tools where they are readily to hand as that situation is achievable to us all with a bit of effort, it's more a distinct admiration that they have the discipline to achieve and keep to such levels of tidyness (because lets face it, being tidy is what it is!) that I for one struggle to achieve.
For what it's worth I have already pledged to get my workshop tidy before starting to take my Flavia apart...lets see how that goes!

Sorry, a semi rant, but still no part to sell you 

[lendickins]

Try https://www.autoepoca.it/brands/lancia-parts/ignition-electrics-lancia/ they have most bits I have needed for my Vignale.

[frankxhv773t]

Part of the problem of loosing things that are put away for safe keeping may be lack of storage facilities. If you see professional restorations on TV they often have expansive racking areas and an unending supply of neat storage boxes. Everything is bagged, labelled and stored in a regimented manner. Most of us have to tuck things away in random places where we can find space and even if we have lots of space probably don't give priority to investing in racking and uniform storage containers. A change of mindset about the value of good storage may be the solution.

[higgsy 45]

Hi William.
I'm but late here, did you solve the light relay problem?  I had a similar problem with my coupe. It didn't burn out but just wouldn't work. I took it out and looked at it all and wondered how the hell it worked. I was a mechanical engineer and very unenthusiastic about electrics. I carefully sorted out where all the wiring went then after many attempts arrived at a reasonable looking circuit diagram plus lots of notes about how i THOUGHT it works and then spent a long time getting the latch mechanism to look like it was working, it does now work most times when I use the headlights.  Often it just doesn't work normally cured by a long set of dip-main-dip clicks. Having read some of the comments mine mostly come on with mains rather than dips.
I did have a spare regulator box which went to Martin Clowes (from Epsom)  but sadly not the headlight relay box,
Let me know if you you didn't succeed and I'll send my circuit drawing effort if it could help.
Cheers.     Dale

[williamcorke]

Thanks Dale, swapping in the second replacement box I bought (NOS from a seller in Italy) seems to have done the trick. I'd be interested to have a copy of the circuit diagram you did; who knows when the next unit might fail!

Cheers, William