Main beam flash.

[HBG]

Hi.

For a while I've wanted to get the main beam (inner lights) flasher working when the outer head lights are on. The car has standard wiring in this regard in that it will flash the main beams from the stalk end button when the headlights are off, but not when they're on. I tend to drive with my headlights on most of the time and therefore never have the ability to flash.

I've been looking at the wiring diagram, specifically solenoids 31 and 32. I can see they're linked by a yellow wire but don't understand what this does, or if it's relevant.

Would anyone know know how to make the flasher work all of the time?

[nthomas1]

I struggled with those solenoids when restoring my car.  This is one of a series of diagrams I sketched to show the interaction between those solenoids on my RHD S2 in order to try to understand the workings.   Note that there can be minor differences (eg where power comes into the cluster, and the same solenoid number with either 4 or 5 connectors) between different versions of S2, and Fulvia 3. 

[lancialulu]

I had the embarrassing moment (do you remember Norm?)at Fulvia 50 having to go out to the car park because my lights were on..... The push button flasher had decided to go to earth. Only option without missing the gala dinner was to disconnect the battery and investigate the following morning. The grey wire had worked its way up the stalk and was touching the push button earth....

From your diagram, moving the grey from the push button to the green on the stalk cabling.... Obviously on main beam no flashing possible but you might want to trigger the inner driving light relay...

As an incidental, driving away from the Essex meet last night (where were you Howard?) My light switch decided not to do low beam leaving me with main beam (on the outers) or side lights.... As the main beam were not set too high it was alright and if anyone complained My inner driving lights came into play with the console switch. (they are set on the horizon!)....

[HBG]

Thanks Norm. I'm going to have to do some studying of your diagrams before I open up the fuse and solenoid area and go at it with a tester. My plan is to understand how it works before going to the car to prove it.

Tim, late at work yesterday, the silly season has started!

[GlynW]

Hi all,

Like Norm, I have tried to understand the interactions of the three wiring relays:  31 - Main relay, 32 - High beam relay and 30 - Low Beam relay.  The connections to the flasher button were the hardest to understand, but I think I have an explanation for how the system works.

Lancia handbooks and wiring diagrams show the arrangements for LHD cars, where the flasher button operates on the low-beam bulbs in the outer headlights.  In the RHD, UK spec. cars, the flasher button activates the low-beam of the dual-filament bulbs in the outer headlights.  The flasher button activates the low-beam when the main lighting switch is OFF and also when it is ON and in the sidelight position.

The flasher button provides an earth (grey) to the solenoid of relay 30 when the lighting stalk is upper (sidelight-only) position.  The live (red) to the solenoid of relay 30 is supplied from relay 32 which is connected to the starter, via the live side of fuse 7.  The main lighting relay (31) is also live, but is supplied from fuse 8, and can be disconnected by putting the ignition key in the GAR position.
When the main lighting switch is ON, an earth is supplied to the solenoid of relay 31, closing all the contacts.  This provides power to the sidelights (fuse 1) and to the lighting terminal of Relay 32.  It also provides an additional earth to the lighting stalk.  This is connected to relay 30 (low beam) when the stalk is pushed down and additionally to relay 32 (high beam) when the stalk is pulled forward.
The diagram attached shows the lighting connectivity on my car (Fulvia S2 1600, UK spec) and my suggestions for the internal layouts of the relays. 

This may not be the best explanation for the behaviour of the lights, but I think it can reproduce what I observe!

[HBG]

That's a good diagram. So if the grey to the flasher button could be disconnected from the dipped beam grey wire and reconnected to the green that goes to the main beam stalk forward position, the main beams should flash.......

Which I think is what Tim said. I'll draw it later, for your approval!

Thanks folks, off to work now.

[lancialulu]

Thanks Glyn

Studying the diagram I can easily fault find my miscreant low beam. If the low beam still flashes when low beam is not working then it is a switch issue. otherwise wiring (doubtful) of low beam relay.

[GlynW]

Thanks Glyn

Studying the diagram I can easily fault find my miscreant low beam. If the low beam still flashes when low beam is not working then it is a switch issue. otherwise wiring (doubtful) of low beam relay.

I had drawn up most of the diagram a while ago, but I had not figured out the internal relay connections.  This thread gave me the impetus to get it finished.  One of my problems was that I had been assuming that the stalk button activated the high-beam, or the high- + low-beam, relays.  In fact it only flashes the low beam side - this is obvious if you remove the low-beam fuses (3 & 4).  Pushing the button closes the relay but gives no flash.

The switch connections represented by the black boxes in the centre of the diagram are all contained within the main lighting switch, so moving the flasher from the low to the high beam will require switch surgery.  I have some annotated photos of my lighting switch, so I can attach those with a suggested modification.  Whatever is done, care should be taken not to connect the relay 30 & 32 earths (grey and green) together via the flasher, otherwise the high-beam will always come on when low-beam is selected.

Please feel free to distribute any of these diagrams (with disclaimers!) to other interested parties.  I would have added them to the Downloads section, but that seems to have been lost in the recent LMC website changes :-(

Glyn

[HBG]

Hi Glyn.

You're last marked up picture describes my understanding of what is required.

Has anyone actually done this and proved it works?

I've not removed this assembly before, is it straightforward? Plastic cowl off, undo knurled lock ring to remove the cup shaped cover......

[GlynW]

Hi Howard,

I don't think I would choose to change the flasher from low-beam to high-beam.  I would be surprised if other drivers could tell the difference in daylight and the modification we are discussing would only activate the high-beam filaments, not the low- and high-beams together.  If you want to find out what that would look like, remove fuses 3 & 4 (low-beam) and use the main lighting switch to activate the high-beam.  Of course, if you have a non-UK car with high-beam on the inner lamps there will certainly be an aesthetic change!

Removing the lighting switch is straightforward.  As you indicate, its just a question of removing the lower column shroud (4 screws), separating the two 4-way lighting connectors (one red, one white for an S2) from the loom and then removing the large knurled plastic ring that secures the cup-shaped cover + switch.  You may need to move the upper column shroud and other wiring out of the way to get enough clearance to get the connectors past the steering column but the switch assembly should simply pull out.  Once out, the switches on the ends of the lighting stalks can be removed (one grub screw and a gentle twist/pull to release).  Then removing the knurled brass ring allows you to remove the cup.

The lighting switches are a work of art, with internal springs and ball bearings, so do not be tempted to dismantle further, though using a bit of switch cleaner while you are there might help.  There is also a lot of low-melting plastic to avoid if you solder a bridge between the grey and green wires, so it is best to use plenty of flux and minimise the heat required.

Caveat emptor!

Glyn

[HBG]

Very happy to confirm that the wiring mod in the stalk works. After this discussion and learning experience the actual job has taken half an hour including getting all the gear and tools out.

As my car is a LHD, where the flashers were part of the dipped beam, I'm happy I can now flash with the main beams. The flasher works only with the slider switch on for either side lights or dipped beam but as I always drive with the lights on, as is the modern way, I'm good with this.

[HBG]

Just to add, if I want to make the flasher work without the slider being used it looks like I need to remove the switched yellow supply to relay 32 and replace with a permanent supply (red). Can you see any downsides/risks to this?

[GlynW]

Just to add, if I want to make the flasher work without the slider bing used it looks like I need to remove the switched yellow supply to relay 32 and replace with a permanent supply (red). Can you see any downsides/risks to this?

That sounds like a good outcome - I had not considered the advantage of a modification when running with low-beam during daylight hours.  Adding an unswitched live to relay 32 should not cause a problem, and should be easily reversible.  The downside would be the need to avoid leaving the stalk on high beam when the car is parked, unless you use an ignition-controlled live from fuse 9.  In that case it should probably be taken from the battery side of fuse 9, to avoid overloading the fuse itself.  You may need the advice of a competent auto-electrician to be sure.

As an aside, the thickness of the lines in my wiring diagram are an indication of the wire diameters.  Also, since I now know that my flasher only activates the low-beam circuit, I probably have to modify my guess for the internal arrangement of relay 32.  I will post here when I have thought more.

If you are not a purist and are looking for more electrical jobs to do, I have replaced the supply to my reversing lamps (originally fed from the lighting circuit) with an ignition controlled live that also supplies an after-market rear foglamp.  That way the reversing lights operate independently of the sliding main light switch.

[GlynW]

PS If you put an additional live in, that should also be protected with a separate in-line fuse.

[ColinMarr]

Well done you clever guys for getting to grips with things I didn't dare to get involved with in my years of Fulvia ownership. I just learnt to live with the flasher as it was! Colin