1600 HF "matching numbers"

[sllim1946]

If a 1600 HF is described as "matching numbers" what would you expect - that the engine number would be close to the chassis number? (obviously the works built more engines than chassis and would build engines for spares throughout the production run). If an engine is a much later number than the chassis number can it still be a matching number and under what circumstances?

Brian Mills

[lancialulu]

Brian

I await Mr Cundy to chip in but I dont think there is any correlation twixt chassis and engine numbers in Fulvias....

Tim

[fay66]

I may be wrong but I would take it to mean the the original Chassis number and engine numbers are still together as first registered, with proof that there has been no change.
Brian
8227

[ncundy]

Ahhh....fame 

I've never seen any correlation in the strict sense (same number for all). All the fanalones I've seen or am aware of for instance have engine numbers that are within about 20 of the chassis number, but that's only a rule of thumb not an absolute. With engines being produced on one line, chassis on another then being bought together for assembly it'd be a coincidence if everything matched up.

I'd go with Brian's definition, although often you wont have the evidence one way or the other. There are plenty of date stamps on the cars that will help you see if the various bits are from roughly the same period of manufacture.

[bruciebonuz]

Chassis and engine on mine are within 1 of each other for what that's worth!

[fay66]

Chassis and engine on mine are within 1 of each other for what that's worth!

From what I understand from Ed Levin in the USA not a lot!
I'll ask Ed for permission to post what he sent me on the subject.

Brian
8227

[ncundy]

Chassis and engine on mine are within 1 of each other for what that's worth!

That's as close as I've heard! Lovely stuff.

[fay66]

Here's the contents of Ed's email with his comments.

Brian
8227

I ran across the LMC UK thread about ”matching numbers” for a Fulvia 1600HF, and you’re absolutely right; the only possible “matching” numbers would be having the engine serial number match the car’s original European registration documents, from a country that noted both engine number as well as chassis number on the reg docs. Given the absence of any factory records, that’s the only possible documentation that could establish what engine that chassis was born with. And that’s the only thing “matching numbers” can possibly mean for a 1600HF; the 1600HF is one model that absolutely cannot have its engine serial number numerically match its chassis number. The chassis numbering started 818.740/1.001001, but the 1.6 engines never changed designation; they started 818.540.1001, with the S1 1.6HF (and works rally cars) taking at least the first 1500 818.540 engine numbers. And, of course, the numbers didn’t even numerically match on the S1 1.6HF; my chassis 871 has its original engine, 804.

 

[peterbaker]

I have always believed ,matching numbers' meant current chassis and engine numbers relate exactly to the original registration document.

[fay66]

I have always believed ,matching numbers' meant current chassis and engine numbers relate exactly to the original registration document.

I thought that was what Ed , Neil and myself were saying?

Brian

[peterbaker]

Sorry Brian. Ill stay out of it.

[fay66]

Sorry Brian. Ill stay out of it.

No problem Peter, I thought perhaps I hadn't made myself clear?

Brian
8227

[rogerelias]

My 72 Triumph Bonneville have matching frame and engines, i.e the numbers are identical, and thats from the factory build sheet, I think thats what is meant by matching numbers

[lancialulu]

So does my MAR Ossa 250!!! Hence my definition of matching.....

[sllim1946]

Thanks guys - especially Ed.

So there were probably about 5750 1600 chassis made including HFS(Fanalone?)/HF S1/HF Lusso S2/Sport - using "La Lancia" as my reference. Does anyone know how many 1600 engines were made?

Brian Mills