rat or restore

[Parisien]

Hhhhmmmm.....Will has thrown a cat amongst we pigeons!

On page 202 of the book, its stated that only 20 Appias are listed as being on the road, this being the case, it now seems that merely ratting such a rare Lancia might not be in its best interest nor that of the dwindling numbers of Lancias from the 50s/60s......remembering it was the most expensive small car on sale during that era because it was so over-engineered etc.

If you'd reconsider James......even a rolling restoration taking on Will's comments and concerns above.......



P

[Parisien]

A further thread here by the.cern a few years back, again, Will's feelings and concerns stated even back then.

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3840.msg27616#msg27616

P

[chugga boom]

If the car you have is the one I told the consortium about, James, I am disappointed - as you say it was ten years ago, and perhaps somebody else could have restored it by now.

I fear that if you  use the car now as it is, you will be faced with an even larger rebuild than if you restored it now. It's O.K. for Simon  to drive an Appia in the South of France all year round but in Britain, with damp weather and salt surely it does not make sense.  

I know - I made that mistake!

I bet that if it were an Aurelia you would not even think of using it. The problem is that people still think of Appias as cheap cars, but they only made just over 3,000 right hand drive 2nd series Appias.

So, James - are you destroying our heritage? If not you are getting perilously close...

Will to answer your points in order
yes it is the car you told the consortium about (the one that nobody wanted) and I only wish I had your time to restore it, maybe you could come and help??
The consortium WOULD have broken it up for spares if it had been bought by them/us so is it better that I still have it or should it have been scrapped??
I never use my cars in winter so no chance of salt infection and or corrosion, is a car is meant to be driven or sat in a shed? unfortunately with restored new or any cars , they deteriorate and just get worse, they are always at their best when 1st restored and go down hill afterwards (if you use them)
As for if it were an Aurelia, if our 6th series was in the same condition it would be getting used , sorry but I wouldn't care what condition it was in I'd just want to drive it! unfortunately appias augustas fulvia berlina's have always been "cheap" by comparison to their GT equivalents or other more desirable models such as B20's super sports zagato's etc, I'm not saying this is how it should be it just is and probably always will be the same
As for destroying our heritage I don't see how, am I known for doing this?? if so  when where how ??if not then why suggest that  would let the car go to ruin??
so should I sell the car on ? ( I know of 2 more in similar condition that havent sold not even any interest)
should I push it back in the shed and when I have time restore it (probably never)
should I use it (preserve NOT ruin) and restore as I go on

[chugga boom]

just looked at the 25,000 euro appia, you can ask what you want for something doesn't meen you will get it  2nd series appia in concourse condition is worth about a little over half that , if the appia was worth 25k then why has this car not sold at similar money and  more realisticly priced
http://www.europeanclassiccars.co.uk/cars_25.html
I'm not ranting even though this may appear as if I am , I just disagree

[SanRemo78]

Changed my mind.

Use it.

When you can't use it because it's got into too rough a state then you're the one to restore it properly!

Guy

[Parisien]

just looked at the 25,000 euro appia, you can ask what you want for something doesn't meen you will get it  2nd series appia in concourse condition is worth about a little over half that , if the appia was worth 25k then why has this car not sold at similar money and  more realisticly priced
http://www.europeanclassiccars.co.uk/cars_25.html
I'm not ranting even though this may appear as if I am , I just disagree

James, thats a B10............looks very nice all the same


P

[chugga boom]

just looked at the 25,000 euro appia, you can ask what you want for something doesn't meen you will get it  2nd series appia in concourse condition is worth about a little over half that , if the appia was worth 25k then why has this car not sold at similar money and  more realisticly priced
http://www.europeanclassiccars.co.uk/cars_25.html
I'm not ranting even though this may appear as if I am , I just disagree

James, thats a B10............looks very nice all the same

that was my point, if a B10 at £25k hasn't sold (which is a fair price) then what chance has an appia selling for that sum 
P

[Parisien]

Fair point.......


P

[the.cern]

There are many issues here. I believe the fundamental one is a point made frequently to me by Jim ..... at least it is still here !!!!   He would throw this at me when I bemoaned some bodge or whatever. This was the meat of the 'what were they thinking' thread of a short while ago.

The most important thing about your car James is that it is still here. Not only that, there seems every intention of ensuring that it remains here with us. I agree Will, that it would have been great if someone else had acquired the car and carried out a full restoration, but that did not happen.

So, we must start from where we are ...... James has the car, by his own admission he does not have the resources to carry out a full restoration at the moment so it must be another option .... just leave it as is and hope it does not get much worse; try to sell it, but we all know how difficult it would be to find a buyer as restoration costs would be so great; get it roadworthy and run it as a daily driver. Those are the main options, there are variations, but I believe those three pretty much cover it.

James has chosen the last and I applaud that. Above all else it is his car, his decision and his resources that have to go into delivering his chosen outcome. I wish you well in it James.

                                              Andy

PS If it develops a nasty knock, please find out what the hell it is and let me know ..... I still have not found mine!!!!!!!!!

[Dilambdaman]

As far as I'm concerned nobody's right and nobody's wrong! What you do with your own possessions is entirely your affair, as long as we all retain the right to voice our own opinions. Mind you, the EU might have a say on that one day soon and then we'll have to tow the line. Hopefully I'll be long gone and sitting on my Lancia badged V8 cloud.

I defend Will's right to say it how he sees it but I also defend my right (and James') to fundamentally disagree. If we were talking about the last Appia ever or a national treasure then maybe, just maybe, I'd feel differently. But we 'aint. For me it's all about driving 'em regardless of what happens next or who comes next. Modestine is out and about as often as possible regardless of what damage I may be doing. I figure that it's strong enough to well out live me and then Jonathan can rebuild it!

A number of people questioned the speed at which I was rebuilding Modestine, my reply was, that all I wanted to do was drive it and at my age (or any age?) I couldn't be sure how long I had got. Selfish? Maybe, but hey, it's my life and my money ( Margaret might disagree with the money bit!)  

So, I'm firmly in the camp of the run 'em and to hell with the consequences. But, if you're in the other camp then good on you and all power to your elbow.

As I intimated in an earlier post on the subject, I have a strong nostalgic yearning for the days when scruffy everyday cars were the norm rather than the exception. £125 an hour to service our Alfa 159 at the local dealer just doesn't float my boat.

Robin.

[chugga boom]

Andy, offers still here if you want to get the car up to us I will sort it for you, agree 100% with you and Robin, atleast its still here and I too feel its all about the driving , Will I do agree to a degree with you that the car should be restored and by using it and loving it, it will hopefully spur me on to do more too it, as for the last 10yrs they have flown by too quickly , by the way 10 yrs ago you were getting a batch of radiator muffs made / copied from the 1 off my car, I haven't heard anything from you and as the car will be on the road soon when can I have 1???
opinions vary and I do appreciate everyones input to this thread , the car is going on the road as it is for the next 12 months then hopefully I will have the time to repaint it over the next few yrs, its been steam cleaned underneath ready for waxoil and underseal , i'm going to Don Cross's on sunday for all the new parts for the brakes and exhaust so hopefully 3>4 weeks it will be on the road 

[Parisien]

Interesting to hear all the views and comments.

Suffice to say, it'll get back on the road, needless to say James has all the skills to bring her back to life and indeed to a sound condition.

Good luck with all your ventures James....and just make sure not to let Warby down!!!!!


P

[DavidLaver]

James,

As a challenge do you think you could protect it well enough and keep a close enough eye on it to use it all year?  With what you know and the facilities you have I think you could...easily...

I ran my Aurelia all year and its still in one piece. When the Kennedys took it on they told me of raised eyebrows when they turned up to Christmas events in it.  The repaint was haphazard to fit in with my urgency to have it on the road (and as it happens my window of opportunity to run that car was tight so that was a very good call indeed) but it lasted well enough for Jason to sort a couple of problem areas with aerosols and those repairs have held another five years or so of hard if occasional use.

They'll be "weak spots" - the mud traps Alan talks of, Will has told me about the boot lids being difficult.  It would be a challenge for sure but "there's always a way" if you're willing to surrender some originality.

On the Aurelia Bernie plated the bottom of an open section just behind the front wheels.  He didn't want waxoil and underseal so as to be able to inspect and repair more easily (discussed elsewhere before) but it got both every year.  It has non original rear screen rubbers and would stay dry street parked.  I did without felt and carpet, just heavy rubber mats with marine grade sound deadening stuck to the back of the mats - in part to be able to inspect and to dry it out in part to be able to strip them for events.

Jacking points are not original - little bits of inch square under the roll cage legs - which makes it quick and easy to get it up in the air as well as preventing damage.  I'd seen too many rusted out jacking points in my time... 

Ali trim rather than chrome was a help.  The bumpers were "beyond repair" items repaired and painted and when they got knocked they'd be repaired and painted.

It wasn't neglected in the sense that it was up on a ramp several times a year but it didn't get washed all that often either.  It was a question of keeping an eye on it and keeping on top of things.  When that was no longer possible I passed it on.

David

[westernlancia]

This is a picture taken looking in through the scuttle of Simon's Appia van which used to belong to me, just after I bought it. As you can see, there is no paint whatsoever in there. In the case of the van there was no rust either - but that was because it had been in Italy all its life and hardly ever used on salted roads (it was taken off the road after it had done only 39000 miles, which is why it is so good).

I removed the front wing and ground away the (pretty minimal) rust in the outer scuttle, and this is the view looking inside.

The OS scuttle of the Consortium's van is extensively rusted in this area - we repaired the NS scuttle for the MoT, but the OS has an enormous patch pop-riveted on there...

Unless you repair, treat and protect this area thoroughly, INSIDE AND OUT (impossible without removing the front wings, and pretty challenging even if you do), using an Appia as a daily driver in the UK is basically condemning it to death.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if you have paid for the car it is your perfect right to do that.

But IMHO it is a bit sad, and if everyone does it it won't be long before there are no old cars left...

[westernlancia]

using an Appia as a daily driver in the UK is basically condemning it to death.

...however, using one in southern France is fine...