rat or restore

[chugga boom]

This is a picture taken looking in through the scuttle of Simon's Appia van which used to belong to me, just after I bought it. As you can see, there is no paint whatsoever in there. In the case of the van there was no rust either - but that was because it had been in Italy all its life and hardly ever used on salted roads (it was taken off the road after it had done only 39000 miles, which is why it is so good).

I removed the front wing and ground away the (pretty minimal) rust in the outer scuttle, and this is the view looking inside.

The OS scuttle of the Consortium's van is extensively rusted in this area - we repaired the NS scuttle for the MoT, but the OS has an enormous patch pop-riveted on there...

Unless you repair, treat and protect this area thoroughly, INSIDE AND OUT (impossible without removing the front wings, and pretty challenging even if you do), using an Appia as a daily driver in the UK is basically condemning it to death.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if you have paid for the car it is your perfect right to do that.

But IMHO it is a bit sad, and if everyone does it it won't be long before there are no old cars left...

Alan , with over 25 years specifically in the bodywork trade I do know a little about rust protection and preservation of cars, also sharing a unit with a PAS125 body shop more than helps me being bang up to date on approved repairs sealants and anti corrosion products, thankyou for the picture and advice on the scuttle and I will treat it properly and not with cure rust rubbish that so many people swear by , rest assured like I said to Will the car will not be allowed to deteriorate and  IMHO it saddens me that you both seem to think that I would do that , again like I said to Will I was unaware that I was known for ruining cars and I will ask you the same as him, when where how? also IMHO I find it sad not to use a car for regular/ everyday use, what was it designed and built for in the first place and why have an ornament in the garage rather than pleasure on the road? nothing I hate more than trophy trailer queen cars that just don't get used, all my cars are kept in a damp garage , not by choice but its that or outside, none of them are rusty as they have all been properly protected, if you were me what would you do with it? let it sit in the shed or try and get some use out of it?

[DavidLaver]

Seeing that car in storage some would see it as "asleep" - I saw it as "dead".  What I see James doing now is "bringing it back to life". 

He was inspired by Simon's approach to "an everyday Appia" and who knows who else might be inspired by James to follow through a project seen by others as "beyond hope".

I agree its not possible to both use and preserve a car in its original finish, or lack of finish.  It might not be possible without structural modification or redesign. To me it would be a shame to submit a "reference example" to such use in the same way its a shame to see a "reference example" over restored or indeed restored at all.  With some reference examples its a shame to see them even sat in - they really do belong in museums.

As to a "death sentence" my view with James is that its not going to rot to the point where it becomes something he can't "bring back from the dead".  This isn't a car that will be run for a year then bangered and scrapped.

David

[peteracs]

James, we have never met, but hope to do so at some point, but I would like to offer my support for your point and do find some of the comments somewhat over the top given

a) Your obvious infatuation with older Lancias and

b) The standard of work you attain with the cars you work on.

So, personally, I would ignore the doubters and carry on as you planned, which I suspect you would anyway...

Peter

[chugga boom]

James, we have never met, but hope to do so at some point, but I would like to offer my support for your point and do find some of the comments somewhat over the top given

a) Your obvious infatuation with older Lancias and

b) The standard of work you attain with the cars you work on.

So, personally, I would ignore the doubters and carry on as you planned, which I suspect you would anyway...

Peter

many thanks and much appreciated , if ever your in this neck of the woods and this applies to all lancisti call in, always good to meet other enthusiasts 

[westernlancia]

a) Alan , with over 25 years specifically in the bodywork trade I do know a little about rust protection and preservation of cars
b) thankyou for the picture and advice on the scuttle and I will treat it properly and not with cure rust rubbish that so many people swear by
c) IMHO it saddens me that you both seem to think that I would do that
d) I was unaware that I was known for ruining cars and I will ask you the same as him, when where how?
e) I find it sad not to use a car for regular/ everyday use, what was it designed and built for in the first place and why have an ornament in the garage rather than pleasure on the road?
f) if you were me what would you do with it? let it sit in the shed or try and get some use out of it?

I'm outside tinkering with my Appia, so I'll do a quick reply, labelled for ease:

a) I can claim 41 - started in 1973. Mostly hobby rather than trade, but you can take your time more when it's a hobby...
b) The two people whose car work I respect the most are you (and your Dad) and Simon Ingman & Dog, his body man. I am not trying to impugn your abilities at all; merely trying to ensure that others don't see this as carte blanche to drive Appias all the year round and not bother to look after them. How do you think the one you've got got into that state to begin with? Lots of people don't read from our hymn sheet.
c) I don't - you invented that bit, because it's not in anything I wrote.
d) As I said, not aimed at you. Your work is fantastic, especially the Ardea pickup and your Dad's 'Carrozzeria Parry' Astura.
e) This might be where we diverge a bit. Everyday use - yes. Everyday use without A LOT of hard work to keep it looking nice, drying it regularly, keeping the salt off - no.

I don't know if you are familiar with the American expression 'rode hard and put up wet' (which is what kills horses), but riding cars hard and putting them up wet is what kills them.

If you wash the salt off and dry them every day before you store them - fine. Most people, however, haven't got the sophisticated knowledge of car construction and care to take the proper care of their cars, which is why there are so many knackered and rusty Lancias (and other cars) around. They can be made to last indefinitely if looked after properly, but most people don't do it.

I had a Lotus 7 customer who had a 1962 Lotus 7 that he had owned since new (he's getting on a bit), and he uses it EVERY DAY throughout the year, and it is in all original and absolutely perfect condition. I don't know if you have ever looked closely at the suspension of a 7, but keeping that uncorroded is virtually impossible. He told me that he NEVER put the car away without cleaning and drying all of it (including the suspension), and polishing it where necessary. That's the level of commitment necessary if you want to use it all year and keep it in any kind of reasonable state.

Most people (in fact virtually all of them) don't 'get' that. Like Will, I found out the hard way (by ruining a car driving it all the time and storing it outside). Like Will I still have the car, but unlike Will I haven't restored it (again) yet. That's for the future - and boy, do I wish I'd looked after it better.

f) See e)

[westernlancia]

I agree its not possible to both use and preserve a car in its original finish, or lack of finish.

I am doing just that - both my 1954 Appia and my 1937 Terraplane are 100% (Appia) or 75% (Terraplane) original. But as mentioned in the previous post, I don't take either of them out in the rain, keep them in dry storage, don't use them in winter, etc. As you say (David) the amount of paint (lack of paint) on both is staggering. The Terraplane basically has no paint on the underside of the floor at all.

As it is a well-known 'reference car' for Terraplane enthusiasts (I don't know of any other all-original S1 Appias either...), I obviously don't want to ruin their originality and worth in that role by restoring or rustproofing them and compromising their originality. But that also means I have to avoid moisture like the plague - and do.

Now that I am in France that's obviously a lot easier, but I've had the Appia since 2000 and the Terraplane since 2006, both in England until recently, and they haven't deteriorated at all.

They both would have done if I'd used them in winter though. But I regard myself as their custodian rather than their owner - at some point I will sell both and/or die, and they will pass to someone else to preserve them.

The Terraplane has outlived 5 of its 7 owners (the bloke who sold it to me is 85), and I confidently anticipate that it will outlast both him and me.

In fact I regard it as my duty to our cultural heritage to ensure that it does just that.

[chugga boom]

a) Alan , with over 25 years specifically in the bodywork trade I do know a little about rust protection and preservation of cars
b) thankyou for the picture and advice on the scuttle and I will treat it properly and not with cure rust rubbish that so many people swear by
c) IMHO it saddens me that you both seem to think that I would do that
d) I was unaware that I was known for ruining cars and I will ask you the same as him, when where how?
e) I find it sad not to use a car for regular/ everyday use, what was it designed and built for in the first place and why have an ornament in the garage rather than pleasure on the road?
f) if you were me what would you do with it? let it sit in the shed or try and get some use out of it?

I'm outside tinkering with my Appia, so I'll do a quick reply, labelled for ease:

a) I can claim 41 - started in 1973. Mostly hobby rather than trade, but you can take your time more when it's a hobby...
b) The two people whose car work I respect the most are you (and your Dad) and Simon Ingman & Dog, his body man. I am not trying to impugn your abilities at all; merely trying to ensure that others don't see this as carte blanche to drive Appias all the year round and not bother to look after them. How do you think the one you've got got into that state to begin with? Lots of people don't read from our hymn sheet.
c) I don't - you invented that bit, because it's not in anything I wrote.
d) As I said, not aimed at you. Your work is fantastic, especially the Ardea pickup and your Dad's 'Carrozzeria Parry' Astura.
e) This might be where we diverge a bit. Everyday use - yes. Everyday use without A LOT of hard work to keep it looking nice, drying it regularly, keeping the salt off - no.

I don't know if you are familiar with the American expression 'rode hard and put up wet' (which is what kills horses), but riding cars hard and putting them up wet is what kills them.

If you wash the salt off and dry them every day before you store them - fine. Most people, however, haven't got the sophisticated knowledge of car construction and care to take the proper care of their cars, which is why there are so many knackered and rusty Lancias (and other cars) around. They can be made to last indefinitely if looked after properly, but most people don't do it.

I had a Lotus 7 customer who had a 1962 Lotus 7 that he had owned since new (he's getting on a bit), and he uses it EVERY DAY throughout the year, and it is in all original and absolutely perfect condition. I don't know if you have ever looked closely at the suspension of a 7, but keeping that uncorroded is virtually impossible. He told me that he NEVER put the car away without cleaning and drying all of it (including the suspension), and polishing it where necessary. That's the level of commitment necessary if you want to use it all year and keep it in any kind of reasonable state.

Most people (in fact virtually all of them) don't 'get' that. Like Will, I found out the hard way (by ruining a car driving it all the time and storing it outside). Like Will I still have the car, but unlike Will I haven't restored it (again) yet. That's for the future - and boy, do I wish I'd looked after it better.

f) See e)

a. wont argue about that as I was born in 1974 but started work in a bodyshop in 1991 as an apprentice
b.many thanks, agreed on simon and dog , that car sat outside under a cover for years on a drive in all the elements uncared for, that is not my intension however accept your point that others (unlikely) may do it and not realise how to preserve the car
c. I oppologise its the way I read it
d. thanks again , that's cleared up my paranoia  
e. I have previously said that the car would not see salt and my intension is to use it for back and too to work, rain doesn't scare me , trapped mud and salt do, as I've said previously I simply won't allow any of my cars even my modern everyday vehicle get into a state of dis repair , a very nice lorry driver smashed down the side of my 54 plate fiat ducato works van, most said leave it its an old van , no chance its being repaired as I don't wish it to deteriorate , even that's cavity waxed (by me) sits outside all year round , I have owned it since its 3rd birthday and no rust, they are not the best underneath either for protection hence why I did what I did, I am fanatical about preserving things and making sure they don't rust, I have a Landrover so I HAVE TO BE!!!!, eitherway its going on the road for me to enjoy and get some use out of, I promise that it will not get worse just better over time

[Parisien]

All sorted James!

Lost in translation sometimes happens on a forum.

WE all know what you're about and how you approach things.......

Enjoy bringing the little A back to life....look forward to a spin in her later on!


P

[westernlancia]

I am fanatical about preserving things and making sure they don't rust
I promise that it will not get worse just better over time

Top man!

[simonandjuliet]

Alan, thanks for the vote of confidence - although I don't fully agree -  James is a professional, doing professional work to an amazing standard. We are strictly enthusiastic amateurs by comparison ...... with the van, we had an amazing vehicle so had a great start.

Back to James' Appia, please get her back on the road (full of waxoyl and underseal) and share the pleasure ! Along with many people, seeing an old and interesting car on the road makes me smile - perfect or otherwise

ps if you are keeping the yellow plates, keep the mag alloys and leave the bumpers off - pimp her up - as a youth might say

[chugga boom]

Alan, thanks for the vote of confidence - although I don't fully agree -  James is a professional, doing professional work to an amazing standard. We are strictly enthusiastic amateurs by comparison ...... with the van, we had an amazing vehicle so had a great start.

Back to James' Appia, please get her back on the road (full of waxoyl and underseal) and share the pleasure ! Along with many people, seeing an old and interesting car on the road makes me smile - perfect or otherwise

ps if you are keeping the yellow plates, keep the mag alloys and leave the bumpers off - pimp her up - as a youth might say

its got to be said I needed that post, bust my sides laughing , as for amateur work I have seen so called professional work to far lesser standard than yours!!!! always impressed as i'm sure most on the forum are too by how thorough your work is, I have to admit I don't like the professional term as I always feel and worry that expectations may not be met , I probably like you just work to the best of my ability but most importantly ENJOY IT!!! 

[DavidLaver]

"Amateur" can sometimes (rare but sometimes) be to a higher standard than "professional" as there's no need to work to the clock or budget. 

David

[chugga boom]

"Amateur" can sometimes (rare but sometimes) be to a higher standard than "professional" as there's no need to work to the clock or budget. 

David

David I wouldn't say that it was rare, the problem these days is a lot of body shops work on bonus where they are given a set time to repair a vehicle, lets just say 10 hrs for example, if the employee takes 7 hrs to repair he gets paid 10 hrs, if he takes 12 hrs to repair he gets paid 10 hrs, so doesn't take much working out what happens, this is partly the reason I got out of body work on newer vehicles as I was generally reworking other staffs bodges or rush jobs, looking at the standards of work done by MANY on this forum it does put a lot of professional work to shame, I've yet to see anything on here that's made me raise an eyebrow and I read most topics and posts as anyones project interests me , so well done everyone 

[Dikappa]

Well James, I read this very interesting discussion that indeed seems to at least 'free' some heavy emotions.
Well I still have my first Lancia ever, a 1980 Beta coupé 2000, and I restored it extensively inside and out, everything new.  The story is: i still have it, and have driven it for 4km's in 20 years, because I did'nt want it to deteriorate.  Now THAT is real car agbuse I can tell you.  So my advise would be: USE IT!
I intend to put the Beta on the road and not care about it seeing some rain, as nog it's just a sad car in storage.
And for my furgoncino: I intend to do the same: do the necessary welding and see it will not deteriorate, and use it.

My daily driver is a Thema 1st series 8V turbo in winter and a Gamma Saloon for vthe summer do I feel bad about it? not very often.
So you have my full support, cars are made to be driven, not to be stored.

[Lapsed Cesare Ferrari]

James, you say you will treat the scuttle of your car "properly, not with cure rust rubbish". Is there a simple treatment you recommend for surface rust?