Story so far series 1 resto

[will]

I had a similar problem  I rebuild an engine and it would not start I swopped a flywheel
from another engine. The mistake I made was not to check the TDC of number one piston
was where the  0 was on the flywheel which it was not. It also possible to get the flywheel  in a number of positions
on the crankshaft. It's worth checking TDC with a dial gauge. 

 The best method of timing the engine on is on page 01/5 of the Appia workshop manual 

 

[lancianut666]

Thanks Will the TDC is a problem I have put a pencil in No1 sparkplug hole with the plug out and turned the engine by hand and tried to gauge when the pencil stops moving up any more...I then used that as a TDC and reset the ignition timing with a meter across the points and it was well out so adjusted it and tried to start it and I thought it was going to go but no joy in the end. So will have another look on Monday...
Clarkey

[Richard Fridd]

How about setting a few degrees before top dead centre?

[Jaydub]

Unfortunately you are never going to get an accurate TDC without a dial gauge on top of the piston and a 360 degree protractor fixed to the crank pulley and a pointer fixed to the timing chain cover. However you can get a rough TDC with a pencil/ wooden dowel, but you have to come up to TDC, mark the pulley and cover, then go past TDC and come back up backwards, mark again and then average the 2 marks to get an approximate TDC.
You then get an approximation of the valve timing by viewing the pulley as a clock. From TDC ( With both valves rocking)turn in the direction of rotation,  and at about 18 minutes past, the inlet valve should be fully open. Carry on turning and the inlet valve should be closed around 38 minutes past.Carry on turning past TDC ( Now on firing stroke) and around 22 minutes past, the exhaust valve should start to open, continue up towards TDC and the exhaust starts to close around 7 minutes to. This only a rough guide but you should know if the valve timing is about correct or badly wrong. According to your photos of the spark plugs you have a compression/ suction problem because 2 of them don`t seem to be getting any fuel and that is not an ignition timing problem.
You need to do another compression test with a wide open throttle, fully charged battery and crank the engine the same number of turns on each cylinder. I find counting up to eight usually enough time to get a reading.
Sorry to preach to the converted.

[lancianut666]

Thanks for the advice on the TDC problem will give it a go tomorrow...in the meantime I tried a carb change as the one on the  car is a chinese copy from ebay. I thought the car was going to start on Friday but the next time I tried not a chance the same again today. So back to basics was there a spark at the plugs? Actually there wasn't !!! check from the coil big fat sparks up my arm so took the dizzy cap off and where is the carbon brush? Hmmm I did remove a small spring out of the dizzy that I thought had fallen in we now know where from...
So we need another distributor cap
Check the TDC and  valve timing as per Jaydubs excellent advice
charge the battery up
get the prayer mat out out
Clarkey

[lancianut666]

Hi all
Finally got my act together and got the engine out so I can see what on earth is going on. I have always had doubts about getting the engine out on its own and so it proved as it just jammed against the suspension axle and would not disengage from the gearbox input shaft. This meant I had to take the propshaft off to move the gearbox back far enough to let the engine come up without jamming.
Clarkey

[lancianut666]

there's more...just need to get TDC set and we are away...

[lancianut666]

Have ordered a dial gauge and a timing disc with 360 degrees marked on it so watch this space
Clarkey

[lancianut666]

The new toys have arrived...

[Jaydub]

Looking good! That`s what you need.

[lancianut666]

Got a wiggle on today...the cranknut that proved impossible to loosen in the car just about fell off after I locked the engine with a screwdriver into the clutch cover mental note for future reference...plonked the engine over the empty engine bay with a couple of bits of timber...whipped the chain cover off and then set up the dial gauge...
...

[lancianut666]

there's more

[lancianut666]

The last picture shows where I have estimated TDC to be I did it twice to make sure and will check again in the morning. I marked the flywheel tooth with a centre punch and interestingly the red painted tooth next to it is where I had guesstimated it to be before..as each tooth is worth 3 degrees of rotation it will be easy to compound this error through the process of  unlocking the camshafts etc. This time I will be able to check it with the circular gauge.
Clarkey
ps sorry about the awful pics done on the old phone camera thing

[Jaydub]

Clarkey, sorry to be a party pooper on your work so far, but I don`t see the protractor attached to the front of the crankshaft in the photo with the DTI (dial gauge) and you cannot get an accurate TDC position without it.

It`s not good enough to just turn the engine over until  the gauge stops moving and assume that is TDC because there is a dead spot at TDC & BDC where you can rock the crank backwards & forwards a few dgrees without the piston moving. So your timing can be quite a few degrees out either way.
You need to fit the protractor, make a pointer out of stiff wire and fix with a bolt/stud to the engine. Turn the engine to highest point according to the DTI, zero the pointer to the protractor as your datum point.
Turn the engine backwards 50 thou on your DTI and note the reading eg 8 degrees. Turn it forwards 50 thou to your starting point and then a further 50 thou and note the reading eg 12 degrees. Add the readings together,
in this example that will be 20 degrees, divide by 2=10 degrees. Bend the pointer from the 12 degree mark to 10 degrees, turn the engine backwards at least 150 thou and then come up slowly until the DTI reads zero at the same time the pointer should read 0 degrees on the protractor. That will give you an accurate TDC position. You may have to do this a couple of times altering the pointer slightly each time until you achieve the zero readings. Until you do that you could be a tooth out on your flywheel marks etc.
PS. I don`t wish to sound like a know it all because I am not, particularly Lancias like a lot of my fellow members, but trying to help by passing on knowledge gained over 55 years in racing/restoration.
Hope I have explained it OK, and not teaching grandma to suck eggs.
Good Luck!

[lancianut666]

Ooops I thought we needed the protractor to test it with... just done it my way and was about to check it with the protractor thing so I'll stick the protractor on and do it again...thanks for the wise words I had wondered about that slack zone at the top of the stroke as the cams etc are still rotating even though the piston has stopped moving. I still can't tell if the camshafts move when you do the exhaust cam bit as you undo the sprocket bolt and rotate the inlet cam sprocket and trust it stays in place same for the exhaust cam. only thing I noticed was the dowels seemed to find a position better than last time but the sprockets still managed to slip off so probably not a bad plan to do it again. Thanks Jaydub
Clarkey