How many 1600HF?

[ColinMarr]

Robin-Dilambdaman’s comment about CUC 20H and how his car was campaigned with vigour by Barry Waterhouse reminds me to mention that the Barry Waterhouse website for commemoration is still open: http://www.evocars.com/ . There is one startling photograph here of the Fulvia looking as if it is about to go end-over-end! Robin, if you have more photos, please post them on this site!

The ex-Jolly Club 1.3 HF is I believe now restored and in the proud ownership of LMC member David Leech.

I have more photos of another of Dave Scheldt’s 1.6HFs – I’ll sort these out and post them later.

Colin

[Dilambdaman]

Yes, Colin, CUC still bears the scars from that nose dive! in fact when we rebuilt her a new subframe we purchased just would not fit and so we repaired the original.

By the skin of our teeth we got her to the LMC 50th at Cirencester and Barry's reaction (not to mention the expletives) was priceless when he realised that CUC still lived! The engine was smoking badly and he kindly helped Jonathan to rebuild it at his workshop, a fitting testament to the kind of bloke he was.

I will see if I can download some of the photos.

Good to hear that the restoration of my 1.3HF has been completed. I bought it from rally driver Gethin Jones who got it from Pye Records. I sold the car to Roger Perry and he sold it to Ken Cleeve. It then turned up at Richard Thorne Classic Cars before passing to Clive Goodsell.

Sorry! back to topic!

Not sure that it will be of any use but Dott. Enrico Masala was very helpful to me when researching the history of my Dilambda. enricomasala@libero.it

Robin.

[1,6 HF]

One of the six superb Fulvia Coupes on display at the Covent Garden Piazza gathering last Sunday was Ian Collier’s RHD 1.6HF ‘Fanalone’, RMA 349H - looking absolutely lovely in ‘Jamaica Blue’. This is surely one of the 20 (or 30?) original RHD cars.

Was Jamaica Blue metallic RMA 349H's original color? If so, this means it was originally built as a Lusso. It'd be interesting to know the same about CUC 20H.

In other words, might it be possible to figure out/guess at whether all RHD S1 Fanalones were Lussos? This won't address the question that started this topic, which concerned the total number of RHD S2 1600s, but in any case it's looking less and less likely that any 'quantity' questions can be successfully answered.

Ed

[Dilambdaman]

Ed,     In the back of my mind I'm pretty sure that someone I met recently who knew CUC 20H before Barry owned it told me that it was metallic blue. I'll try and contact him.

Robin.

[1,6 HF]

Robin,

Thanks for that. I suspected as much (metallic--not the exact color). Silly of me not to ask earlier, but what about yours?

(And speaking of which, Carlo Stella maintains a register of the Fanalones. Does he have yours? If not, you can contact him at cariocahf@alice.it . Maybe Brian can help you with the translations...)

If your Fanalone is also a Lusso, then the next question is this: does anyone know of a RHD Fanalone that isn't (and wasn't originally) a Lusso? Comparatively few of the LHD Fanalones were Lussos, but were any of the RHD cars not?

Ed

[ncundy]

The whole issue of S1 Lusso vs S1 non-Lusso is to me a bit of a red herring. It gives the impression that one is a sporting flyer, the other a more refined version. Marketing cobblers !! The only difference was colour, bumpers and some sound insulation (and mine had no sound insulation in it, but is a Lusso - it will have when it is finished though!!). In the end it was all about choice of colour. If you wanted a metallic one it was a Lusso, if you didn't it wasn't and that was it.
Generally the cars advertised internationally are not Lusso (but many have been changed over their lives), but if you look at local Italian press there are always Lusso models for sale. There were two for sale last week-all looking like Lusso spec (one blue, one silver), and there were two Lussos for sale in France not long ago (both silver).
I would bet that many more Lusso's were made than would be apparent today, but the bumpers were removed and thrown away. Unfortunately the HF rear bumpers are unique (no holes for the number plate light - not fitted to HF's) so difficult to get hold of. This is probably one of the reasons why so many are now bumperless.

[ColinMarr]

The idea that all RHD Fanalones were either metallic blue or silver is interesting. Ian Collier’s information notes about his Fanalone, which was exhibited at Covent Garden last week, describe his car as: “Fulvia 1.6HF Series 1 Fanalone RMA 349H. One of approximately 30 right hand drive cars imported into the UK between 1969 and 1970, finished in either Jamaican Blue or Grigio Escoli (silver)”.

Colin

[Neil]

The one at Covent Garden was rather lovely, interesting topic on the colours available, how about multliple coloured Fulvias? In the mid 80s my now wife and I went on a treasure hunt in Herefordshire which had a number of Fulvias present including mine and one Fanalone in two metallic shades.  The lower half in darker colour and upper half in silver, I have an old photo which has been scanned more recently, it has been heavily cropped to keep the size of the file to a minimum.  The registration is ALR 8H for reference, any one here?

 

[Dilambdaman]

Unfortunately the HF rear bumpers are unique (no holes for the number plate light - not fitted to HF's) so difficult to get hold of. This is probably one of the reasons why so many are now bumperless.

That's true, when we restored CUC 20H the best we could do was to have the holes in a 1.3 S1 bumper welded up and polished by a stainless steel catering equipment manufacturer!
 

The one at Covent Garden was rather lovely, interesting topic on the colours available, how about multliple coloured Fulvias? In the mid 80s my now wife and I went on a treasure hunt in Herefordshire which had a number of Fulvias present including mine and one Fanalone in two metallic shades.  The lower half in darker colour and upper half in silver, I have an old photo which has been scanned more recently, it has been heavily cropped to keep the size of the file to a minimum.  The registration is ALR 8H for reference, any one here?

I seem to remember that it had a metalic dark brown lower half and was for sale by the lady owner at an AGM just before we bought CUC, so around 1995.

Im pretty sure that it belongs to a club member who lives very close to me in Lewes East Sussex.

Robin.

[1,6 HF]

The whole issue of S1 Lusso vs S1 non-Lusso is to me a bit of a red herring. It gives the impression that one is a sporting flyer, the other a more refined version. Marketing cobblers !! The only difference was colour, bumpers and some sound insulation .... In the end it was all about choice of colour. If you wanted a metallic one it was a Lusso, if you didn't it wasn't and that was it.
Generally the cars advertised internationally are not Lusso (but many have been changed over their lives), ...
I would bet that many more Lusso's were made than would be apparent today, but the bumpers were removed and thrown away...

Neil,
I wouldn't take issue with any of that. My purpose is to try to figure out what the factory made; I would completely reject any notion of there being a substantial difference between non-lusso and 'Lusso'.

I believe that the 'Lusso option' was nothing other than a homologation ploy--the factory wanted to homologate the cars with as little weight as possible, but was afraid that they couldn't sell enough of them as street cars without bumpers and with plastic windows. And as far as I can tell, most of the street cars had glass windows, whether 'Lusso' or not.

Somewhere (one of the sales brochures?) I've read that carpet was an option for 'Lusso's, but I don't imagine many chose that. Sound insulation could only have made a marginal difference. When I replaced my rubber mats, I added Dynamat, but I can't swear it made a difference. What I did discover, however, was some original sound deadening mat on the firewall, so I strongly suspect that most street cars had sound deadening, whether 'Lusso' or not.

And a lot of Fulvias, Fanalones and otherwise, seems to have lost their bumpers ('rally car envy'?). Personally, I would have kept them if mine had them. It's hard to buy a Fanalone to one's own custom spec, so I lept at the first one to present itself, but my ideal would have been an LHD version of yours: a 'Lusso' in grigio escoli.

In any case, I don't think there's an ounce of difference in character between the S1 'Lusso' or non-lusso--a few ounces difference in bumpers, but none whatever in character.

The idea that all RHD Fanalones were either metallic blue or silver is interesting. Ian Collier’s information notes about his Fanalone, which was exhibited at Covent Garden last week, describe his car as: “Fulvia 1.6HF Series 1 Fanalone RMA 349H. One of approximately 30 right hand drive cars imported into the UK between 1969 and 1970, finished in either Jamaican Blue or Grigio Escoli (silver)”.
Colin

We do know that some RHD cars were produced in other colours (the aforementioned RHD Rosso La Plata 'Lusso' in Australia, for one). Do we know that all the UK RHD Fanalones were Blu Jamaica or Grigio Escoli? If so, that might be down to the UK concessionaire ordering what they thought would be the most marketable colours. 'Two-tone' cars would seem to be another matter altogether.

Ed

[rogerelias]

Re the 2 tone Fulvia. I may be wrong , but I think it used to belong to club member Sue Rubens,who used to live in Wales / Chesire, i think she moved down to the brighton area a few years ago, that would tie in with the Lewes sighting. Roger.

[ncundy]

Ed,
Totally agree with you - mine may have had carpet in but having looked at it, it was carpet in the loosest description of the word, held up to the window i can see right through it ! Trying to figure out what the factory made is an admirable aim, one that you, I and I am sure others share. Will we get there.... !

But it will be fun trying !!

My daughter asked today "are we a good family because we have a Lancia?"!!! I said yes, because we have taste, standards and we don't comprimise ( a matter of opinion I suppose  .)

"What is compromise Daddy ?" Try explaining that to a 3 year old !

Ah well, back to the grind on Monday .........

[FanaloneMan]

ALR ***H was the subject of a magazine article I think and was Jamacia Blu. I'm not at home but the number rings a bell. I'll check and update.

I was told that 'lusso' models were fitted with glass door windows and that was the only way to tell. Bumpers were because of the UK market. Lusso's in Italy were mostly without bumpers.

Another point about the 'lusso' would be the windscreen trim. Some cars, even the (later) works ones  have it. Others don't. Just for the record mine doesn't have windscreen trim and has a plexiglass rear screen. The door glass is glass.

[1,6 HF]

I was told that 'lusso' models were fitted with glass door windows and that was the only way to tell. Bumpers were because of the UK market. Lusso's in Italy were mostly without bumpers.

Another point about the 'lusso' would be the windscreen trim. Some cars, even the (later) works ones  have it. Others don't. Just for the record mine doesn't have windscreen trim and has a plexiglass rear screen. The door glass is glass.

Consulting the original factory brochures may not be entirely reliable (with Fanalones nothing seems entirely reliable), but these seems to suggest that all 'Lusso's were issued with bumpers. Neil correctly noted that many of these have been removed over the years. I don't think it's impossible for it to be true, but do you know for a fact that Italian Fanalones were mostly issued without them? or are you surmising this from the observation that most don't have them now?

Also based upon the brochures, Fanalone 'Lusso's (at least early ones) had no windscreen trim--just the rubber gasket. The S2 1600HF Lussos had windscreen trim, whereas the S2 1600HF non-Lussos did not. Separate topic: do non-Lusso S2s exist outside the factory brochures, or was this another homologation ploy to allow those extra 20 Fanalones to be built?

Glass was homologated for all Fanalones in one of the homologation revisions. I suspect that most Fanalones left the factory with all glass. But I have no hard evidence for this; it's also possible that many cars issued with plastic have had it replaced with glass over the years. In any case, at least some non-Lussos were issued with all glass.

All I can say to Neil's assertion that it will be fun trying to sort all this out, is that he obviously shares my perverse sense of humor.

Ed

[ColinMarr]

Another dip back into the archive and here are three more photos, taken as digital camera snaps of pages from Dave Scheldt’s garage-abused photo album (with Dave’s permission I should add). This is another Fanalone, 93 MT also raced by Dave in the 1970s. The two-tone colour scheme is red and white. See this and the next two posts: