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Seara Cardoso
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« on: 25 March, 2015, 10:27:39 AM » |
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Hello all, Im a recent member and this is my first post here.
I bought my Flavia Coupe iniezione in 2009 with brake problems, I replaced the master cylinder, bought a rebuilt servo and new calipers. All went good for some time until the brakes jammed when parking in the garage. I then sent the MC and servo to italy to be repaired. They came back OK and all went good for about 2 years until last October when they started jamming on again. As soon as I touched the brake pedal the car would brake hard and stay braked in the middle of the road, when this happens the brake pedal is impossible to move and brake lights are one. To release the pressure from the system I have to open one of the servo bleaders and the car moves again. The scariest part happened when returning home only using the handbrake and the car locked the wheels in the middle of the road without any warning (the car behind me thought I was crazy).
As I was tired of having problems I decided to try to repair a spare servo I had home, only maintaining the vacuum chamber and the control valve from my servo. The servo seems better as it has a better feeling when braking but I still have jamming problems. Now it only jamms when I apply hard the brakes for about 20seconds, and I have to release the pressure from the bleader once again.
Has anybody ever had any problem like this? I'm starting to loose some confidence to go far from home with the car, but I also want to maintain the original Lancia MC and servo.
Thank you
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« Last Edit: 25 March, 2015, 10:32:26 AM by Seara Cardoso »
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1956 Aurelia B20GT
1957 Appia Vignale
1963 Fulvia Berlina
1964 Flavia Berlina
1967 Flavia Coupe 1.8 Iniezione
1972 Fulvia 1600 HF
1972 Fulvia Berlina
1974 Beta Berlina 1800
1994 Thema LX
2008 New Delta
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brian
Megaposter
Posts: 289
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« Reply #1 on: 25 March, 2015, 11:00:27 AM » |
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These are well-known Flavia problems. The Consortium has details of a modern replacement and I have fitted this to my Flavia Sport and I have had no problems since. It looks almost original too.
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Brian Hands
1922 Hands Tourer
1934 Augusta standard saloon
1938 Aprilia S1 saloon
1953 Aurelia B10
1965 Flavia Sport
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DavidLaver
Permanent resident
Posts: 4388
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« Reply #3 on: 25 March, 2015, 04:16:37 PM » |
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In terms of space required they are double ended, they have a hydraulic cylinder out of each end, so need different mountings.
With a single carb its quite tight to the airbox, I've seen one with it at a slight angle. With twin carbs there's space for it to go in straight as Brian as it above. I've yet to see one on an injected car... I'm sure Colin Clamp would know "if" and exactly "how". He also knew off the top of his head who'd done the neatest job on the plumbing, it might have been Brian with the Tee fitting out the back that saves the space for access.
David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
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SanRemo78
Rebel Poster
Posts: 839
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« Reply #4 on: 25 March, 2015, 07:58:59 PM » |
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Not familiar with Flavia servos but I did have a similar problem with a Fiat 124 Spider - problem was the pushrod acting on the mastercylinder itself was very slightly too long. If you can get the brakes released by slackening the mounting bolts between the mastercylinder and servo that might be an indicator that the pushrod needs to be shortened?
Guy
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Seara Cardoso
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« Reply #5 on: 25 March, 2015, 11:49:56 PM » |
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Thank you all for your replies. I think I'm in the last effort to keep the original equipment, if I do not succeed making it work properly I will undoubtedly go for the Frenos Iruna servo, what is the size to be applied on the flavia? I think in the iniezione it will be a little more difficult as it seems to be less room, even now removing the air filter box it touches the servo!
Guy, do you mean the pushrod between the pedal and the pump? I just checked and it has a little play before pushing the pump, so I guess there is everything ok there.
I just came back from the garage, I tried to brake with the car turned off and as I suspected nothing happened. After I turned it on, started braking normally and everything was normal.
I then braked hard and the brakes jammed on, at first I felt like the pump was stuck (a lot of play until the pushrod touched the pump) but then I felt it coming up until it reached the limit. The pump became impossible to move, I guess some pressure must be coming from the servo, right? Turning the car off changes nothing!
To see if the rear wheels were also receiving pressure I opened the brake line going to the rear wheels. Doing that made some oil go out and I head the servo moving to its rest position.
After this last test I was no longer (at least for now) able to make the brakes stick on again, and I now feel the pedal operating a little bit downer, could it be air in the system? I might take the car to work tomorrow to test it.
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1956 Aurelia B20GT
1957 Appia Vignale
1963 Fulvia Berlina
1964 Flavia Berlina
1967 Flavia Coupe 1.8 Iniezione
1972 Fulvia 1600 HF
1972 Fulvia Berlina
1974 Beta Berlina 1800
1994 Thema LX
2008 New Delta
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SanRemo78
Rebel Poster
Posts: 839
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« Reply #7 on: 26 March, 2015, 08:43:37 AM » |
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Guy, do you mean the pushrod between the pedal and the pump? I just checked and it has a little play before pushing the pump, so I guess there is everything ok there.
No, I'd expect to see a mechanical link from the pedal to the servo but this link wouldn't be physically attached to the master cylinder. This link would push against a plate that is inside the servo. On the other side of this plate there should be another rod that moves the master cylinders piston, at rest it sits on it's stop within the servo body and the tip that sits within the master cylinder should have a small gap. If this rod is set too long it's possible that can exert a slight force on the brake system. When everything gets hot and expands this might prevent sufficient fluid returning to the reservoir and the brakes lock on. It's exactly what happened on the Fiat 124 Spider rebuild to me. Fortunately, on the Spider, the rod was adjustable, at it's end was a dome headed nut or bolt that could be screwed in to shorten it, job done, no more brake problems!l Hope that helps a little more! Guy |
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chriswgawne
Permanent resident
Posts: 2090
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« Reply #8 on: 26 March, 2015, 09:35:11 AM » |
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Whats the internal diameter of the first stage of the replacement Spanish master cylinder/servo unit? And what is the I/d of the original Flavia unit I wonder?
There is I believe a problem getting replacement 1st series Fulvia remote servos and I am wondering if this Spanish unit is a possibility? Space might well be a problem of course but the I/d would be useful to know.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
Mobile: 07778 216552
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fay66
Permanent resident
Posts: 6233
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« Reply #9 on: 26 March, 2015, 09:38:20 AM » |
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Thank you all for your replies. I think I'm in the last effort to keep the original equipment, if I do not succeed making it work properly I will undoubtedly go for the Frenos Iruna servo, what is the size to be applied on the flavia? I think in the iniezione it will be a little more difficult as it seems to be less room, even now removing the air filter box it touches the servo!
Guy, do you mean the pushrod between the pedal and the pump? I just checked and it has a little play before pushing the pump, so I guess there is everything ok there.
I just came back from the garage, I tried to brake with the car turned off and as I suspected nothing happened. After I turned it on, started braking normally and everything was normal.
I then braked hard and the brakes jammed on, at first I felt like the pump was stuck (a lot of play until the pushrod touched the pump) but then I felt it coming up until it reached the limit. The pump became impossible to move, I guess some pressure must be coming from the servo, right? Turning the car off changes nothing!
To see if the rear wheels were also receiving pressure I opened the brake line going to the rear wheels. Doing that made some oil go out and I head the servo moving to its rest position.
After this last test I was no longer (at least for now) able to make the brakes stick on again, and I now feel the pedal operating a little bit downer, could it be air in the system? I might take the car to work tomorrow to test it.
does anything happen if you remove the servo hose from the engine, does it release then? Brian 8227  |
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Own 1966 Fulvia 2C Berlina since 1997, back on road 11-1999.Known as "Fay"
2006 Renault Megane 1 5 Dci Sports Tourer
Dedra Technical Adviser
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DavidLaver
Permanent resident
Posts: 4388
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« Reply #10 on: 26 March, 2015, 09:46:00 AM » |
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Chris - does it need a remote twin circuit type as well?
What this is reminding me of is a gorgeous TAV page of the Flavia based Super Jolly, with twin callipers and a think also twin servos for what might be four circuits...
David
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David Laver, Lewisham.
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chriswgawne
Permanent resident
Posts: 2090
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« Reply #11 on: 26 March, 2015, 11:28:48 AM » |
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If I understand the query in your post correctly David, the Fulvia GTE has one remote servo which works on the front brakes only then in the rear brake circuit, there is a 'moving ball' pressure limiting valve hidden away under the floor just above the removable rear subframe member. I never knew this limiting valve was there until Martin Cliffe told me about it a couple of years ago and I have never seen a diagram of the Fulvia GTE braking system which shows this valve. It is however mentioned in the GTE supplement in the Fulvia Sedans drivers handbook.
Chris
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Chris Gawne
Mobile: 07778 216552
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DavidLaver
Permanent resident
Posts: 4388
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« Reply #12 on: 26 March, 2015, 02:56:17 PM » |
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David Laver, Lewisham.
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Seara Cardoso
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« Reply #13 on: 26 March, 2015, 05:52:15 PM » |
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No, I'd expect to see a mechanical link from the pedal to the servo but this link wouldn't be physically attached to the master cylinder. This link would push against a plate that is inside the servo. On the other side of this plate there should be another rod that moves the master cylinders piston, at rest it sits on it's stop within the servo body and the tip that sits within the master cylinder should have a small gap. If this rod is set too long it's possible that can exert a slight force on the brake system. When everything gets hot and expands this might prevent sufficient fluid returning to the reservoir and the brakes lock on. It's exactly what happened on the Fiat 124 Spider rebuild to me. Fortunately, on the Spider, the rod was adjustable, at it's end was a dome headed nut or bolt that could be screwed in to shorten it, job done, no more brake problems!l
Hope that helps a little more!
Guy
Thank you Guy, I think I understood it now, there is a rod attached to the vacuum membrane that links to the piston that makes pressure on to the wheels , that must have a small gap (I have a sketch that shows what it should be, I'll look tonight for it), I didn't change mine as I didn't want to change something I wasn't sure how to measure. The rod is adjustable, do you think I should try to shorten it? does anything happen if you remove the servo hose from the engine, does it release then? Brian 8227 Hello Brian, I havent tried that approach yet, I'll try to ride the car this evening, If I manage to make it lock on again I'll try to remove the hose. I'll keep you informed. |
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1956 Aurelia B20GT
1957 Appia Vignale
1963 Fulvia Berlina
1964 Flavia Berlina
1967 Flavia Coupe 1.8 Iniezione
1972 Fulvia 1600 HF
1972 Fulvia Berlina
1974 Beta Berlina 1800
1994 Thema LX
2008 New Delta
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Dilambdaman
Permanent resident
Posts: 1380
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« Reply #14 on: 27 March, 2015, 05:44:39 PM » |
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Hi Seara, welcome to the Forum! I had a similar problem recently with a friends Fulvia Sport and shortening the actuator rod from the peddle to the servo seems to have cured it. It seems that when the engine heats up the rod heats, expands and closes the gap. You might find the thread helpful http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5484.15Robin. |
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Robin Lacey 3222
1932 Dilambda
1992 Y10 GTie
2012 Delta Mk3
2013 Ypsilon 846
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