Brake advice please!

[davidwheeler]

or this

[davidwheeler]

Or even this one - which I had forgotten!

[stanley sweet]

For what it's worth I have some scribbled notes in my manual from a conversation with Omicron a few years back. The cup washers (parts 31 and 12 in the workshop manual) should face each other with the 'open' side facing each other. They also said that sometimes the cup washer (part 12 again) is sometimes replaced with a solid rubber washer. This might account for the extra washer you have.

As far as brake bleeding is concerned the successful technique so far for me (with an assistant) is to jack the back axle up using the plate in the centre to open the compensation valve. Then front uppers first, then front lowers, then rears. It's always worked when done in that order.

[Scott]

Hi David and Stanley - thank you both; very helpful.
It all seemed relatively straightforward at the time and I did take copious pictures but with the washers/seals when they're in situ it's not easy to see orientation and then you take them off and after the fact think "if only...". 
The MC diagram below indicates that the washers circled red should be in the same orientation so unless anyone says differently I'll go with that.
The washer circled blue in the diagram was very much a solid washer in my MC so that may account for the washer I have left over - thank you Stanley. Interesting though this change in design.

I still can't find diagrams or information that confirm the seal set-up for MC-to-servo. As my posting said, I only had one washer (not in the refurb pack) and was absent the larger washer (present in the refurb pack). Is this another case of a particular batch design favouring one over the other (although my MC clearly has recesses for both). Mmm.

[Scott]

After dismantling, cleaning and replacing the seals on my master cylinder I put it back on the Fulvia today. With an Eezibleed system I then bled the brakes. To my dismay the pedal still went to the floor as it did before the rebuild with the now familiar 'sigh' of air. 
Looks like I'll need to hunt down a new master cylinder...

[lancialulu]

If there were no signs of scoring in the bores and you have assembled the piston "flap valves" correctly then it must be air in the system somewhere???

You can buy 21mm fulvia re-manufactured (ie pattern part) mastercylinder bodies but not cheap.... It may be worth just doing the rebuild again or taking it to "Past Parts" for them to rebuild?

[Scott]

Thanks.
The old seals actually looked all fine but were all replaced with a seal kit from Omicron. I carefully inspected the MC when I dismantled it and it looks smooth and unscored / unpitted. I'm still getting exactly the same symptoms I had before the refurb though ... a sigh of air and the brake pedal easily being pushed to the floor.
I think my only option is really, as you've suggested, to send it to a specialist.
I came across 'J & L Spares' but if you're recommending 'Past Parts' that's good enough for me.

[stanley sweet]

Did you follow the strange bleeding sequence?

[the.cern]

Past Parts are good!!!!

                  Andy

[Scott]

Good question Stanley and I believe so.
Took the rear wheels off for better access but had the axle on stands then did front RHS top; LHS top; RHS bottom; LHS bottom. Followed by rear RHS; LHS. Eazibleed seemed to be pushing fluid through okay as allowed fluid to run free from each nipple but after this sequence still a pedal to the floor situation. 

Thanks for the help and advice from everyone. Nine times out of ten I can fix something myself but I'll give PastParts a call on Monday for this situation.

[lancialulu]

Have you got fluid running under gravity bleeding? It is common for Fulvias to be a pig to bleed. If you have fluid coming through under gravity can you get an assistant to press the pedal down and hold while you close the bleed nipple....and repeat after releasing the pedal and you do you see more fluid being pumped. The sigh of air must be coming from the servo on the back of the m/c?

[Scott]

Hi Tim - thanks; appreciate the follow up.
Yes I've put my head in the foot well and when I press the pedal down the 'sigh' is emanating from what can only be the servo. With the brakes operating normally such maximum depression would never be realised and the sigh never noticeable; very noticeable now though!
Fluid seems to be coming through fine with the Eezibleed pressurising via the MC reservoir hooked up  to a tyre operating at the 20psi recommended. I must admit to not doing anything with the pedal during this procedure so I'll definitely take your advice.
Guess what I'm doing this afternoon ... assuming the weather holds. It's like Russian roulette with the downpours where I am right now!

[Scott]

Have drained and taken off the master cylinder again just for a triple check.
Rear plunger very difficult to get out though; this was an easy part of the refurb with only two simple seals so can't believe I've done something wrong here! But with it so difficult to move this does raise question marks for me.
To reassemble and try bleeding again I think will get me to the same situation I've just encountered so I'll definitely give PastParts that call tomorrow.

[davidwheeler]

I abandoned Eezibleed in favour of the Sealy vacuum bleeding kit and find it greatly superior and much less messy too!   Bleeds my Fulvia very easily.   It is only £36 from Eurocarparts at the moment and worth every penny.

[nistri]

assuming that the master cylinder has been correctly reassembled, slacken (NOT to be undone) the front union nut at the master cylinder, place a large rag under it, pump the pedal slowly 2-3 times to push fluid out, retighten the nut, and repeat the operation with the rear union nut. Then go on to bleed the brakes as per Lancia advice. If your car has a remote servo (GTE, rallye S), repeat the bleeding as above at the servo cylinder with the engine running. Good luck,
Andrea